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 Post subject: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:17 am 
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I am planning to build a new work/gaming (1440p 144Hz) PC soon.

Here is what I am planning so far:

  • Intel Core i9-9900K 8C/16T
  • Be Quiet! Dark Rock PRO 4
  • Asus ROG MAXIMUS XI HERO Wi-Fi Z390
  • Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2400MHz C14 2x16GB
  • MSI GeForce RTX 2070 GAMING Z 8G
  • Fractal Design Define R6 Blackout USB-C
  • Corsair RMi RM750i 750W
  • Samsung SSD 970 EVO NVMe M.2 PCIe 500GB
  • Some HDDs for backups, large files (probably 3+4 TB WD Green from the current PC)

Any thoughts about this?

I chose Asus motherboard because afaik Asus has the best software and UEFI for fan control.

Case: at first I was thinking about BeQuiet 801 because it has some interesting features like more sound dampening and better HDD cages but looks like it has much less airflow, especially with default fans, so probably will not be good for 9900k.

Dark Rock PRO 4: one of the best air coolers and better colors than Noctua :)
I wonder though if I will be able to add/reinstall RAM in the first slots without removing it... I know that I can remove the fan while installing but looks like it's not just fan on top of the first slot? https://i.imgur.com/U6iFLGW.png

Corsair RMi: not much more expensive than RMx but gives some monitoring/control via software.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:48 am 
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First, research a lot on 9900k, its the fastest gaming CPU, but also its not easy to cool off, intel has taken this CPU to the limits of what 14nm can do, its very important for you to get a good motherboard, as there are lots of VRM thermal throttling that limit what the 9900k was design to do, specially i would avoid Asus this gen, at least if you want to still go with 9900k. We saw lot of different results on inital 9900k reviews because of this, recommended you watch Hardware Unboxed Core i9-9900K, High-end Z390 VRM Temperature Test, Which Board Should You Buy?.

I would recommend to reconsider going with 8700k, you have the option of deliding and it will end up much easier to cool of, but if you still want to go with 9900k, i would recommend only two motherboards, GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER (the pro and wifi are good options also) and ASRock Z390 Taichi (the ultimate is also an option). Both motherboards have good VRMs designs, and will sustain the 9900k 4.7ghz boost indefinitely.

Alex11223 wrote:
I chose Asus motherboard because afaik Asus has the best software and UEFI for fan control.
The best software fan control is correct, the best Bios fan control no, MSI/AsRock have better Bios fan control than Asus, atm im testing atm a GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER and its very nice the bios fan control.

Alex11223 wrote:
Corsair Vengeance LPX DDR4 2400MHz C14 2x16GB
Coffee Lake supports by design DDR4 2666, so this is the lowest i would go on it, avoid 2400. Since you are chosing Vengance low profile, this is what i would suggest so it fits with the frontal fan, Corsair Vengeance LPX 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4 DRAM 3000MHz C15 Desktop Memory Kit - Black (CMK16GX4M2B3000C15), but crosscheck its on the QVL of the motherboard you chose.

Alex11223 wrote:
Fractal Design Define R6 Blackout USB-C
Make sure you got 3 fans at least, 2 intake and one out, you going to need good airflow to keep the 9900k cool. Test the included fans first, if you wish to upgrade, BeQuiet SilentWings3 BL067 is what i would use (i used them on my WorkMi build, if you wish to check link on my signature).

Alex11223 wrote:
Corsair RMi RM750i 750W
I would suggest CORSAIR RM750x, its on sale and lots of people here are using it with good results.

Alex11223 wrote:
Be Quiet! Dark Rock PRO 4
Be advise that im struggling to cool it with NH-D15S, Dark Rock Pro was slightly worst to what i have read, but similar, just that this cpu is very hard to cool of on load, being ran at stock but allowing it to turbo how intel design it without any throttling. I leave you some screenshots of my testing with different fan configurations.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 8:38 am 
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Abula wrote:
there are lots of VRM thermal throttling that limit what the 9900k was design to do, specially i would avoid Asus this gen, at least if you want to still go with 9900k. We saw lot of different results on inital 9900k reviews because of this

I thought it matters mostly for OC 9900k.

Yeah, I will think about Asrock and Gigabyte. iirc I decided not to consider Gigabyte when I have read about some issues with them but don't remember what it was exactly, I think one of the issues was that on overclock.net some people complained that the fans randomly reset the settings or turn off.

Some of the differences in reviews also could be because of the mess with the settings affecting the boosts. GN did some investigation about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kN9ZJm7aVYg

Abula wrote:
I would suggest CORSAIR RM750x, its on sale and lots of people here are using it with good results.

Yes, but as I understand it's the same or almost the same PSU, RMi just adds some software monitoring/control. The price difference currently is 15 EUR here.
Abula wrote:
Be advise that im struggling to cool it with NH-D15S, Dark Rock Pro was slightly worst to what i have read, but similar, just that this cpu is very hard to cool of on load, being ran at stock but allowing it to turbo how intel design it without any throttling. I leave you some screenshots of my testing with different fan configurations.

hm, I thought 78C° is not bad if it is with all possible boosts (except OC) and under stress test?


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2018 11:42 am 
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Alex11223 wrote:
I thought it matters mostly for OC 9900k.
It depends, what do you expect from the 9900k? full 4.7ghz advertised by intel as turbo for all cores? if thats a yes then it does matter the vrms, if you want intermittent turbo (due to throttling) then go with whatever motherboard you wish.

If you run the 9900k under the 95W tdp "spec" its like 2700x and you will need to keep it around 4.2ghz on all cores, boards like Gigabyte and AsRock do allow the turbo of 4.7ghz advirtised by intel as their max to be ran fully when ever you want, this is not to be mixed with MCE (multi core enhancement), that i haven't even tested due to the temperatures that im getting. Now lots of motherboards that don't have good vrms simply throttle the cpu in order to keep vrms under control and the cpu temperature, thats a choice that you need to take before buying your motherboard. That said my 9900k run on the GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER under load stock @ 4.7ghz is more like 150W TDP cpu.

Alex11223 wrote:
I decided not to consider Gigabyte when I have read about some issues with them but don't remember what it was exactly, I think one of the issues was that on overclock.net some people complained that the fans randomly reset the settings or turn off
If you manage to find the thread please link it, ill be interesting on reading the issues. I do have one though, the CPU temperature read by the motherboard (aka the one you see on the bios and gigabyte software SIG), is not the same as the core max or cpu package, it defers on average about 15C, but its not a big deal for me, think of this like an offset, you simply draw the graph and breakpoints knowing this. At the end i simply used the Silent profile (embedded on the bios) and manage to fully keep the 9900K under control with 2x NF-A15 on NH-D15S, i would probably tweak it some more if i were to install it on my main pc, something that im still deciding.... i think the cpu is really amazing but to keep it as quiet as i have my 8086 delided will be impossible, so im still testing and will decide later on.

Alex11223 wrote:
Some of the differences in reviews also could be because of the mess with the settings affecting the boosts.
Thats a valid point, something that we will never know, testing procedures are not standard between all reviewers, but one thing i can tell you that in my limited testing, this CPU is like intel tried to push it to the limits almost to the point that there is barely any overclocking room, even 4.7ghz is a speed that really puts a big load on it and to assume this is stock is because intel really pushed it. I strongly suggest you chose a motherboard that has good VRMs on it, even if you are not overclocking, if you don't want Gigabyte its fine, AsRock Taichi is a very good mobo, i own the Z370 and been great, i would have chosen on Z390 but simply Gigabyte seems even better.

Quote:
hm, I thought 78C° is not bad if it is with all possible boosts (except OC) and under stress test?
Well the lowest i reached was 80C for the package, thats with 2500rpm fan and i can tell you its not quiet by any means, even the NF-A15 at 1500rpms are not quiet either, but yes this is under stress test, Aida64 stability test that its not likely to reach this levels unless you do render/edit a lot. That said, we are also on the coldest time of the year, i tested at 3am, the ambient temp was 13C, on summer i have days of 30C ambient... so the 9900k would be reaching 100C under those conditions. On gaming the cpu will be between 60-70C depending on your airflow and rpms.

If you are looking for a quiet gaming setup, build around 8700k, delid it with liquid metal, it would be a lot easier to cool, and go with Asus Z390 it wont matter much the vrms as with the 9900k.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 9:38 am 
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Abula wrote:
Now lots of motherboards that don't have good vrms simply throttle the cpu in order to keep vrms under control and the cpu temperature

hm, I wonder why they do that if as I understand people successfully use Asus XI Hero for 9900k OC.

btw found this strange review in which Asus is cooler than other boards https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel ... st27760106
Not sure if it's valid but it also mentions the issue with Gigabyte temperature readings.

Abula wrote:
If you manage to find the thread please link it, ill be interesting on reading the issues.

It was mentioned here https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel ... d-289.html
Quote:
Asus Maximus XI Hero:

- Asus Armoury non-sense or whatever it was would insert itself into fresh windows installations which I hate - though I've heard you can now disable this in the BIOS.
- The main reason I returned it - there was a very odd hard-freeze that would come up ~1 time every 24 hours. It was completely unrelated to what load the PC was currently under and it happened both at stock and OC. The PC would freeze and soundloop, with other PCs this would just continue until you did a hard reset however if you left it for 10-15 seconds, it would resolve itself and the PC would continue as if nothing happened. I've had it happen while web browsing, during a game - I even had it happen during a Cinebench test and the score was 100% unaffected which means the PC is operating as expected in the background during the "freeze". I contacted Asus support and got the most mindblowingly useless reply so I just returned it. Was it due to premature BIOS? Ram sub timings (I found out side that Asus does some pretty aggressive sub timings) - I'm not sure, but I'm now curious to get another one to see if I had a bad board previously or if there was some other explanation.
- Doubts regarding the performance of the VRM setup - in my own testing the temps on the VRMs were great, but there was and still is a lot of doubts in the air about the VRM setup. If I'm spending this much money on a motherboard I want a damn good VRM setup.

Gigabyte Aorus Master:

- AFAIK the Gigabyte board has 2 superio's to control all the fan headers. For some reason if I connected my fans to the headers on the second superio and set the fan curve to hit 100% RPM when running P95, the fans would run at full speed, but then randomly "die" and go to 0 rpm. They would then start themselves back up after 5-15 seconds and follow the correct fan curve as if nothing had happened. Didn't happen with the fans connected through the main superio. Tested with different fans (NZXT AER Ps, Vardars, Noctuas, Fractals) - same deal. I've got no answer for what was going on here.
- Gigabyte control center apps (specifically Smart Fan) - A big draw for me to the GB board was that you could control fan headers from GPU temps. I then found out you can't do it through BIOS but have to use the windows app which sucks (might as well use SpeedFan). But I figured I'd give the app a try... It's terrible. It has to calibrate the fans and it would get different calibration results everytime you ran it - and the 100% calibration would always be ~800-1000 rpm for some reason (on 2000RPM Vardars) and 90% would be like 1800 RPM. And then half way through the PWM range it would say 60% - 0 RPM. No gigabyte, running a 60% PWM signal does not result in 0 RPM, c'mon now. I got around the wonky calibrating by first setting the fans to run at 100% using the "auto full speed" profile - the fans would now calibrate properly and I could switch to manual control. However, even though I specified a fan to follow the GPU temp (which it could see in the app) the fan would never change speed no matter how I adjusted the curve/fan settings. After a few restarts the GPU temp option just flat out disappeared from the Smart Fan app so I uninstalled it.
- The BIOS is not great. Version F4 is basically a crime against the tech world and is borderline unusable. F5 is much better but still not great at all vs say the Asus BIOS - it's at least usable.
- "Meh" memory training on the secondary ram timings.
- Onboard audio isn't well isolated - even though they've put a great DAC in there, the isolation isn't great and you can hear interference from the GPU load. No where near as bad as the Taichi, but not as good as the Asus.
- Weird frametiming issue in some games and benchmarks - for some reason the Aorus Master would post 400pts less GPU score on the Timespy benchmark than the Taichi or Maximus XI Hero (a 2-4fps lower average fps). It's because the frametimes are absurd for some reason the FPS counter in 3DMark updates very quickly, and it was pinging around so fast you actually couldn't read the number - why is the motherboard having any effect on the GPU frametimes? Tried numerous fresh installs, different driver versions etc, couldn't get rid of it. Went back to the Taichi and problem's gone - FPS counter is absolutely rock solid, correct GPU scores and no micro-stuttering. This is frankly unacceptable and was the main reason I returned it.

and then here by another person https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel ... ead-9.html
Quote:
this behavior occurs only when in p95 a thread got in error (one core stop to work, overclocking not stable, voltage too low) and repeats itself every time a new thread fails...

I try to explain myself better.
During the overclocking phase doing the tests with p95 + AVX I noticed that: if 1 core fails the fans/pump connected on sysfan_pump_5 and 6 (set with the cpu temp sensor as a reference) stop to functions (0 rpm) for a few seconds and then resume normally until another core fails. This never happens if overclocking is stable and there are no errors in the test. All monitored by hwmonitor64.


But probably not important if it happens only for some people in Prime95 stress test, and also a Gigabyte representative there said that he reproduced it and reported to HQ, so maybe it got fixed in the next update.

There are also some complaints about audio isolation but I probably don't care about that because I am planning to buy a USB DAC/AMP anyway.

There is also this reply https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel ... st27699532 about the lower benchmark score mentioned above, but not sure if it's really an issue (does it happen in real games etc.)
Quote:
Was discussed on the eVGA forums a few years back.
Also verified on several gaming laptops.
Basically, C states trigger some sort of ASPM power management on the PEG port, which decreases the graphics score.
Maybe Asus forcibly disables ASPM (bad design, disabling stuff without user's permission) while Gigabyte enables it.

On my MSI "throttlebook", enabled Cstates (C3 or deeper) causes a 600-700 reduction in Graphics score (not CPU score). Disabling cstates prevents that.


More worrying however are these 3 reports about coil whine: https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel ... st27722698


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2018 10:36 am 
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Alex11223 wrote:
Abula wrote:
If you manage to find the thread please link it, ill be interesting on reading the issues.

It was mentioned here https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel ... d-289.html
Thanks for the link, lots of reading for me now.

Alex11223 wrote:
More worrying however are these 3 reports about coil whine: https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel ... st27722698
I can tell you, i havent heard any coil whine or electical noise coming out of mine, but i also think its not always the board fault, to me anything can develop coil whine, and most likely happen on a combination of hardware and in some cases in certain load, that said if you fear Gigabyte is more likely to have coil whine, go with AsRock Taichi.

Alex11223 wrote:
There are also some complaints about audio isolation but I probably don't care about that because I am planning to buy a USB DAC/AMP anyway.
Cant help you much here, my motherboard is still on the test bench and havent tested the sound on it, but from Sandy Bridge, i haven't found a single motherboard that had a good onboard, my emotiva UPA-5 is very sensitive to noise, and picks up a lot of things from popping, windows noises, electrical interference, mouse movement... its been a nightmare on the audio side to use realtek, the only solution i found was to go with Omega eClaro that i still use today, does have some issues, its not perfect, but once you set it right its like night and day, its pretty impressive at least to my ears. That said there are such good quality dacs today, that if you dont need a multichannel audio setup, you better of with a dedicated dac.

One thing to keep in mind is that bios are maturing, even though Z390 is very similar to Z370, the power delivery, usb native among other things is still new and remains to be tweaked, so give it some time for bios to mature. I still like the gigabyte mobo, really nice overall, but as most does have some quirks that hopefully gets sorted, AsRock Z390 Taichi also is a good candidate to read more about it, but i would keep researching and decide upon what you think would suit you better.

Also remember we have CES2019 just around the corner, maybe AMD shows some of their upcoming Ryzen 7nm, the leaks looked like too good to be true, but if they are, i would wait for release.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 6:02 am 
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Abula wrote:
if you fear Gigabyte is more likely to have coil whine, go with AsRock Taichi.
Yeah, seems like it's indeed could be a safer option because I see many coil whine reports on Master but almost no about Taichi (could be partially because it is less popular though).

However in some of the Hardware Unboxed tests Taichi temperatures do not seem much better than Asus. https://youtu.be/6lAE3PgWoRc?t=1076

Another option is Gigabyte Ultra.
buildzoid even said that Ultra/Pro/Elite have better VRM components. But it's unclear whether the complete implementation is actually better (e.g. worse heatsink).


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 9:50 am 
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hm, looks like in most coil whine reports people say that it's only in idle and disabling C-states or C1E removes or decreases it.

So maybe it's not a big issue then, as I understand disabling C-states only a bit decreases power efficiency in idle (like +5W).


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2018 12:31 pm 
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I have been reading the threads you posted over OCN, and a lot like the HERO, i think even though the VRM is not as good as Gigabyte, people on OCN have been having good results with it, if you really want the Asus go for it, i think it will be fine. That said, you got me into reading again, and there is a sale on the AsRock Z390 Taichi Ultimate, a friend is interested on the gigabyte and im planning to move on to 10GE soon, so will see in a week or so how it goes with the Taichi.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 10:31 am 
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Any updates about Taichi? :)

btw I was researching AIO watercooling a bit because people always say that watercooling is great (and I was thinking that maybe e.g. BeQuiet AIO is actually quiet, I am mainly worried about the pump in idle),
but looks like there is not much difference between AIO and high-end air,
for example this review with OC 4770k https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/b ... iew,9.html
NH-D15 74C, BeQuiet SL 360 72C, Corsair H110i GT 65C, EK 67C.

HardwareCanucs also built two 9900k systems with AIO watercooling https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=821fCChV0MI and air https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVlKC0J9Fnw and the results are similar too (75C and 80C), he used different fans and cases (BeQuiet 801, 601) though.
Abula wrote:
Coffee Lake supports by design DDR4 2666, so this is the lowest i would go on it, avoid 2400. Since you are chosing Vengance low profile, this is what i would suggest so it fits with the frontal fan, Corsair Vengeance LPX 16GB (2x8GB) DDR4 DRAM 3000MHz C15 Desktop Memory Kit - Black (CMK16GX4M2B3000C15), but crosscheck its on the QVL of the motherboard you chose.

Yeah, thanks for noticing.

I need 64 GB however and the choice of 16 (16x2) GB modules is more limited.
There is Corsair LPX 3200MHz C16 CMK32GX4M2B3200C16 but it's out of stock for some time already.
Also there is G.Skill Aegis DDR4 32GB (2x16GB) 3000MHz CL16 1.35V F4-3000C16D-32GISB and it's even 50 EUR cheaper.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:53 pm 
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Alex11223 wrote:
Any updates about Taichi? :)
Im sorry i haven't received it yet (i don't live in the US delivery to me takes weeks), that said im leaving on business trip on Thursday so if i dont get it by tomorrow i wont have much time to test.

Alex11223 wrote:
I need 64 GB however and the choice of 16 (16x2) GB modules is more limited.
There is Corsair LPX 3200MHz C16 CMK32GX4M2B3200C16 but it's out of stock for some time already.
Also there is G.Skill Aegis DDR4 32GB (2x16GB) 3000MHz CL16 1.35V F4-3000C16D-32GISB and it's even 50 EUR cheaper.
If i were able to fit it, i would use G.SKILL TridentZ RGB Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Desktop Memory Model F4-3200C14D-32GTZR, i ordered the LPX more so because NH-D15S, but ill try both and see later on which ill use.

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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Abula wrote:
If i were able to fit it, i would use G.SKILL TridentZ RGB Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 3200 (PC4 25600) Desktop Memory Model F4-3200C14D-32GTZR

afaik it should be possible to mount BeQuiet DRP4 fan a bit higher but it's 420 EUR instead of 220-270 (so +300-400 EUR for 64 GB), not sure if it's worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 2:45 am 
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Abula wrote:
Im sorry i haven't received it yet (i don't live in the US delivery to me takes weeks)

Yeah, np, I probably will not order until somewhere during the next week or later anyway because half of the parts are out of stock here.

Abula wrote:
Also remember we have CES2019 just around the corner, maybe AMD shows some of their upcoming Ryzen 7nm, the leaks looked like too good to be true, but if they are, i would wait for release.

So as expected it was just a quick preview of 8 core Ryzen which supposed to have similar performance to 9900k but a bit less hot than 9900k (AMD said -25% power consumption, though I heard people say that it is about 15% because 9900k actually consumes a bit less power in stock during Cinebench with the same score).
It will be released in "mid 2019", so probably somewhere in summer after Epycs (+1-2 months for reviews, fixes, being out of stock etc.) and I think I will not wait for that.


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 Post subject: Re: Quiet work/gaming PC. 9900k
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:04 am 
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Posts: 3375
Location: Guatemala
I got the AsRock Z390 Taichi Ultimate yesterday, i only swap the D15S from the gigabyte and test it briefly on the test bench. My first impressions are good, while the Auros master is a better board, it has one thing that i didnt liked, the CPU temperature or the way gigabyte reads it through its sensor, its has a 15C offset over cores/pacakge (and even then not linear), this is something that i can adapt, but not optimal, the AsRock bios has almost the same temps as HWinfo cores/package (its not 100%, but i would say with in 1 or 2 C), so for me its easy to setup the bios fan control and remains accurate for all the temperature range. Now the VRM did get hotter, and temp wise i would even say that AsRock probably overvolts a little more than the gigabyte, i saw around 5C higher on load, but i havent tweak much on the bios, so take my comments with a grain of salt, that said, im using the Taichi over the Master on my main setup, i like the 10ge lan, the accurate cpu temps, the ease of use of the bios, the master will remain in my test bench though, its a wonderful board, probably the best sub $300.

Sadly im on a business trip for the next three weeks, so i wont be posting much about the build or if you wanted me to test something. Ill post the build around the second week of february.

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GameMi - Intel i7 8086K + AsRock Z370 Tachi + Asus RTX2080Ti Strix | MiniMi - Intel i7 8700K + ASRock Z370ITX + MSI RTX2080Ti
StreaMi - Intel i9 7940X + AsRock X299 Taichi + Asus GTX1080Ti Strix | WorkMi - AMD 1950X + AsRock X399 Taichi + MSI GTX1080
ServeMi - Intel Xeon E3-1230 + Supermicro X9SCM-F + 144TB | StoreMi - Intel Xeon E3 1240v5 + Supermicro X11SSM-F + 42TB | CamMi - Intel i7 4770K + MSI H81i + Blue Iris


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