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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:31 pm 
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JohnMK wrote:
Ralf Hutter wrote:
Rusty075 wrote:
Plus there's also the fact that JohnMK's temps are not true full-load temps. A few hours of video coding is not the same amount of stress as CPUBurn would be


Ding-ding-ding!!! We have a winner here folks!!!


What do you take me for? I know what I'm talking about when I report a statistic such as that. I also run two instances of SETI@home overnight to maximize register utilization on a Hyperthreading P4. The highest temp I have seen is 54C, overnight, running SETI@home. My room is approximately 72 degrees Fahrenheit. Video encoding with XviD & Avisynth utilizes two threads heavily and distributes work well across both virtual CPUs, similiarly well utilizing the registers of the P4 and getting my temps up just as high as SETI@home.


Eeeasy there big fella!!

I'm not capping on you either, just the fact that a DC client or even two instances of Prime95 will heat up your CPU to worst-case levels. Russ already explained the theory behind using CPUBurn and I'll give you some numbers as well. I build systems as a side business and have always been a real old lady about testing, testing, testing before I deliver something to the customer. One of my tests is to verify the cooling ability of the system and for that I use CPUBurn. It consistantly loads the CPU higher than any other application I've ever found. On P4 systems, the temp difference between running 2 instances of Prime95 vs. 2 instances of CPU burn runs from about 3-6°C hotter for CPUBurn testing. This is what I use for all my "worst-case" temp testing. I use Prime95 for stabiltiy testing and Memtest86 for memory testing but CPUBurn heats up the system like nothing I've ever found.

Case in point:

I built a P4 3.0 800MHz system a few weeks ago and used a Z-7000AlCu for cooling. Running it at 7V gave me 2xPrime95 load temps of 52-53°C. Running 2xCPUBurn ave me load temps of 58-59°C. This was at about 21-22°C ambient. This was on an Intel 875PBZ board, one that gives a fairly representive temp readout, as opposed to the Asus 875/865 boards that read about 8°C cooler than that, or an Abit 875/865 board that reads about 10°C hotter than that.

In regards your specific situation, I assume you're using the Asus P4C800-E that you referred to in an earlier thread. If so, did you add some temp compensation to your mobo, as I suggested in this post, or are you running at the default Asus readout? If that's the case, I would suggest adding some compensation to give a readout closer to the "average" P4 mobo.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest, but I've built a lot of P4 systems and am very familiar with the peculiarities of the various families of P4 boards. For a little backup, I'd point you towards the forums at OCforums and ABXzone. Search for posts from about Apr-Aug 2003 where people are asking how their CPU temps can be cooler than there mobo/case temps on their Asus 875/865 boards. It quickly became apparent that Asus' CPU temp readouts are too low. The same thing happened with Abit boards, but going the opposite way. There's some huge threads in the AbitUSA and OC forums where people are taking aAbit engineers to task over this issue.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 5:38 pm 
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roaf85 wrote:
Buy a Dell 8300 or build a computer on the Sonata platform. I am not going for complete silence just something that is not a jet engine like the computer I have now.


If you want to be sure it's quiet, do your research here at SPCR so you buy the right hardware and build it yourself.

Dells can be more of a crap-shoot. Sure some are quiet, but some aren't (depending on the vagueries of Dell's hardware kit) and I doubt that they'd let you return it becasue it is "too loud".

If you're not to experienced building a system and would rather have warranty support (such as it is) maybe a Dell would be the way to go.

Please though, DON'T get a Dell without giving ARM a fair shake. These guys know their shit and their prices are pretty darn competitive too. They'll sell you a system that will be quiet and it appears that they have good support as well.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2004 9:48 pm 
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Hi Ralf,

I run the Intel D875PBZ Revision 303, and it did top out at 61C under CPUBurn just as you promised. :) It was a particularly warm day here though and my father forgot to turn on the air conditioning, so I'm pretty sure this is a worst case scenario -- at least I hope.

I ran two instances -- one per virtual CPU.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 5:07 am 
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JohnMK wrote:
Hi Ralf,

I run the Intel D875PBZ Revision 303, and it did top out at 61C under CPUBurn just as you promised. :) It was a particularly warm day here though and my father forgot to turn on the air conditioning, so I'm pretty sure this is a worst case scenario -- at least I hope.

I ran two instances -- one per virtual CPU.


Perfect. Looks like you're good to go!

(You lucky dogs up in the Seatlle area have no idea about "worst-case scenarios"! It was over 100°F here yesterday and it got up to 97°F in my computer room! Bleech!)

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 27, 2004 6:28 am 
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Ralf Hutter wrote:
You lucky dogs up in the Seatlle area have no idea about "worst-case scenarios"! It was over 100°F here yesterday and it got up to 97°F in my computer room! Bleech!



I'll trade you. I'm my way to work this morning it was snowing! :x :x :x :x


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:45 am 
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Ralf Hutter wrote:
roaf85 wrote:
Buy a Dell 8300 or build a computer on the Sonata platform. I am not going for complete silence just something that is not a jet engine like the computer I have now.


...Dells can be more of a crap-shoot. Sure some are quiet, but some aren't (depending on the vagueries of Dell's hardware kit) and I doubt that they'd let you return it becasue it is "too loud"....

...Please though, DON'T get a Dell without giving ARM a fair shake. These guys know their shit and their prices are pretty darn competitive too. They'll sell you a system that will be quiet and it appears that they have good support as well.
(edited down for ARM vs Dell content)

Thank you Ralf, One of our guiding principles is that the true experts in the quiet computing field can genuinely hold us in high regard based upon real world results, and coming from someone as experienced and well respected as you means a lot to us. :)

roaf85 wrote:
I could type all day on this topic. I have before in another thread I did. However to get a clearer understand I am wondering if I could chat with Steve at ARM systems. I know he is a busy man and I am not really serious to buy right now but in the near future I will. Let me know in a PM. Thanks.


roaf85 I always do my very best to actively correspond with the good folks of SPCR, so you, and anyone else at SPCR, are encouraged to PM, email, IM, or call me at ARM directly. If you contact me outside of a PM at SPCR, please identify yourself as being an SPCR member so that I can prioritize your call to the top of the queue. :wink:

As for Dell, trust me, their high end systems with newer generation components definitely DO NOT qualify as SPCR Quiet when under load. However, their low end units with very basic configurations aren't too bad noisewise. In a nutshell they spend as little as possible on their design to 'noise reduce' their systems for the bulk of the population. This cuts noise down some, but this discussion thread is about a P4 3.4GHz high performance system, and when it comes to high performance rigs, an ARM StealthPC will easily best any Dell system in a quiet contest by a good margin.

Please don't get the wrong idea about this issue just because I am a competing vendor. I am not trying to slam Dell unfairly, but let's be realistic here, they are a very profit driven bottom line company, which means they only put enough $ into their system designs to meet their warranty/failure goals, and to satisfy the majority of customers acoustically vs their other big brand competitors under average usage profiles. Which translates into - 'Dell systems are usually quieter than their big brand tier-one competitors' however, they are most definitely a lot louder than a similarly configured ARM StealthPC, or a carefully designed DIY system when put under load or built with high end components.

Add to that the fact that most tier one built systems, are usually proprietary and come with very stringent warranty policies, so you cannot just crack them open to work on them as you see fit, do so and you will immediately void their warranty. In contrast, our StealthPC complete systems and our DIY kits, are built on industry standard components, with our StealthPC enhancements of course :wink:, and if you want to work on them, go right ahead, we won't void your warranty! :D We just expect you to be reasonable and responsible adults about how you work on them, then be honest with us when you call us for support if something goes very wrong because you did something way out of bounds, i.e. please don't ask us to pay the price if you accidentally fried your system. A good customer/vendor relationship goes both ways, and most mature responsible adults actually prefer it that way. It might sound a bit 'old fashioned' but we at ARM prefer to trust our customers first and ask for the same in return, and to date this philosophy has overwhelmingly proven to be worthwhile for both parties.

However, each person casts their vote for a particular vendor with their hard earned dollars as to what is right for them. Do a little homework first, and then decide based upon that research what is best for you.

Stevo

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:21 am 
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Location: Reading, UK
Updates:

* Ordered WISS Snips, for project "free Willy Aluminium fan".
* Equally, ordered wire fan grills :). May contemplate to super-glue them to the case, due to my somewhat "non-standard" way of mounting the fans (no screws).

* Talked to www.quietpc.com yesturday, and sent off the "wrong" accoustic foam. They confirmed receipt of it today, REIMBURSED the delivery cost (ca. 20+ dollars) to me, and are DHL'ing the correct padding (visually checked by the person I was dealing with).

*WOW* :shock:

I'm really impressed by their customer service. Misdeliveries happen (I'm not pissed at that), it's HOW companies deal with things such as this happen, that it matters. QuietPC sure as heck are responsive and friendly / "customer oriented". Two thumbs up / 5/5 stars. ).

* Ordered NEC-2500A, but am going to return it, as I'd gotten the OEM version and wanted the retail. Let's see how THAT one goes ... *sighs* ... one example of "good" site advertising + customer care (Quiet PC), versus one "not so good". Wouldn't have happened if www.Chillblast.co.uk would've advertised the drive as an OEM model. Oh well - shall judge them when they respond to my mail...

* Spotted Enermax Noisetaker 475 PSU's in france ( www.monsieurprix.com/listing/gen/J000074303.html ) - am currently mailing around to see if I can get a better deal on the critters, or at least from a site/country where I don't get such a "nasty" feeling about terms + conditions...

If they're available in France, they've gotta be available elsewhere too :).

...

Think that's it for now. Have, incidentally, contemplated a model (additional nut + washer) to "stabilize" the Zalman Fancontroller. Shall see if I can bend the metal back into shape, and hope that the additional nut+washer (to be resting against the Zalman frame) stop it from bending out of shape.

... I think that's it for now.

Am mostly lacking a graphics card now (darn it, hurry up, NVIDIA), and the Noisetaker PSU (can NEARLY smell it...) :).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2004 10:47 am 
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More Updates:
* WISS Snips received and already done an "ugly" cutout of the fan-guard. Shall see how to clean it up a little, and then smooth out the jagged edges (i.e. "electrical tape" or something more sophisticated, such as Ralph's approach).

* Received + had to send back first NEC-2500A - sent me the wrong version (OEM vs. Retail - d'oh).

* Received correct Accousti-pads. Bit of a bastard thing to put in in certain bits, but got there in the end. :)

Tragedy Struck:
My P3 system chocked and died late sunday. Took me until now to figure out that my Geforce 2 Ultra died (Fan stopped working) a horrible death. Long live on-board graphics.

While shite, they at least provide me with SOME functionality. Contemplating getting a cheap-ish Geforce 4 or 5 - just something to enable me to watch DVD's and movie's full-screen without counting the frames (bleh - i815 integrated graphics suck. Need i845 really...).

* Still waiting for the Noisetaker 475 to become available outside of France (due to reseller warning that there was something at fault with the ones in France).
* Still looking for a quiet DVD-ROM drive (preferrably RPC-1 -able.
* Still waiting for Geforce 6800 Ultra to become available to be bought...


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 10:04 am 
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OK - I've WISS-snipped both fan-grills out now.

Contemplating my "fate" on how to mount the fan-grills I've considered the possibility of simply using super-glue to attach the grills to the chassis.

Anyone have any reasons why I SHOULDN'T do this (it's not as if I'll be intending to remove the grills, so I can't think of anything).

Other than that, realized that I can't place the motherboard in, until I have the PSU, as I can't route the cables under the mobo, with the thing in place. So, my case is still pretty empty :(.

Waiting mostly for the PVC-material to cover the "ugly" holes where once there was a congesting fan-grill. Once that's on - unless people have other advice - I'll superglue the grill on.

Since I am note entirely sure of being able to cut the PVC strip in a manner so that it'll fraction-stick in the holes (not helped by the fact that I lack Ralph's + co practice in cutting a "nice" round hole - though I believe I've done a decent run at it), I'm contemplating again use of superglue here.

Superglue - solution for the lazy people, one wonders :).

Input / suggestions would be appreciated.

(Reminder - the reason for supeglueing the grills, is that I'm currently forced to use cable-ties to strap the Evercool aluminium fans to the chassis. Screws being too short and not fitting into gromets, and all that :().

Now - mostly to wait for the blasted PSU and graphics card to become available ... *sigh*.

Am SERIOUSLY considering the ATI XT800 Platinum at the moment ... hmmm - and I've never been an ATI fan ... but it seems to run just THAT MUCH cooler than the NVIDIA 6800 Ultra. So, here's to hoping that HISTechnology develops a NICE, quiet solution :D).


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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 12:58 pm 
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shathal wrote:
OK - I've WISS-snipped both fan-grills out now.

Contemplating my "fate" on how to mount the fan-grills I've considered the possibility of simply using super-glue to attach the grills to the chassis.

Anyone have any reasons why I SHOULDN'T do this (it's not as if I'll be intending to remove the grills, so I can't think of anything).


No, that will work fine and actually superglue is sort of brittle so a sharp tap on the fan grill will knock it right off, in case you ever need to remove it.


shathal wrote:
Since I am note entirely sure of being able to cut the PVC strip in a manner so that it'll fraction-stick in the holes (not helped by the fact that I lack Ralph's + co practice in cutting a "nice" round hole - though I believe I've done a decent run at it), I'm contemplating again use of superglue here.


You can't tell what my fan grill holes look like, they're covered with rubber channel. :)

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 1:34 pm 
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Shathal,
I just finished building my silent PC (w. very similar specs) and have a few suggestions:

Power Supply: Check out the Tagan TG480-U01 (480W). This PS is _way_ more silent than my Enermax w. speed control. It also has 28A available on the 12V line (i.e. good for those high powered video cards). In terms of power and stability, it compared very favorably to the Antec TruePower offerings. Although somewhat hard to find in the U.S., Tagan is evidently more prevalent in Europe?

The new ATI cards (x800 line) should be compatible with Zalman's current VGA cooling options. A cooling benefit is that the RAM does not need to be cooled on these cards (unlike the GeForce 6800s). I plan to get a x800 card and use a waterblock solution (w. passive RAM heatsinks for extra margin).

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 2:06 pm 
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Get some of the rubber sticks from Directron.com. They are like the blue fan isolators from McMaster-Carr, and are much easier to put on. They have little rubber knobs that stick out so you can mount a fan grill. They're a little tricky to get the fan on securely sometimes, but once you put it on properly, the fan isn't going to get disloged easily.

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 2:59 pm 
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Thanks for the above comments, here's a few things.

1: Yes - the Targan PSU is pretty easy to come by in Europe (I get hits on it pretty easy). But, I am mostly after the EnerMax Noisetaker PSU for a varierty of reasons. The Tagan-480 has been the most serious contender, but finally lost out, as it seemed to run just a tad TOO hot.

2: Directron.com does me little good, since I'm not in the USA, and getting the fan isolator's you're talking about won't work with the Evercool aluminium fans.

I'd advise for anyone who's interested in them to check the fan-thread on them - these critters are HUGE and weigh a fair bit - but that's not the main problem. The main problem is that they effectively need their own mounting mechanism.

Special screws, and all that - a "normal" fan-mounting clip won't work :(. This has been the source of much frustration, which finally led me to plagiarize Bluefront's idea of using cable-ties to tie the critters to their space.

I am at the moment VERY seriously contemplating ATI-cards, especially as it looks that not only do they draw less power, but also will likely become available before the NVIDIA cards.

In the end, it's who gets a quiet(-ish?) model out first, who'll likely win the race. My suspicion here is that it'll be ATI...


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 3:06 am 
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Sorry, didn't know you weren't in the U.S. Anyway, the Directron sticks are DIFFERENT from the EAR isolators. The EARs won't work on a fan like the Evercool, but the rubber sticks WILL. I currently have my 120mm Evercool mounted VERY securely with the Directron rubber sticks. I've moved the case several times, and the fan has stayed perfectly in place, even when moving my computer 200 miles at a time.

Still, I guess rubber washers or zip ties will work well enough in a pinch.

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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 4:25 am 
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shathal wrote:
2: Directron.com does me little good, since I'm not in the USA, and getting the fan isolator's you're talking about won't work with the Evercool aluminium fans.


Those Directron "sticks" are actually made by Verax, a German company and are available from some of the German online "Quiet PC" companies at least, and maybe even more places in EU. Search for "verax" and see what you find.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 8:23 am 
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Yeh, I know - and you can get them at this place here:
http://www.kustompcs.co.uk/acatalog/Fan_Mounting.html

But - as I said, I very much doubt that the mounting mechanism works with the evercool aluminium fans, as well as being somewhat doubtful that these things can carry the weight of the metallic buggers :).

Ta for helping with advice tho.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 1:12 pm 
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shathal wrote:

But - as I said, I very much doubt that the mounting mechanism works with the evercool aluminium fans, as well as being somewhat doubtful that these things can carry the weight of the metallic buggers :).

Ta for helping with advice tho.


Mmm, I seem to remember some of the aluminum Evercool guys running them with the Verax sticks, but that's kind of a fuzzy memory. Use the "search" to see if you can find the posts that I'm referring too.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:11 pm 
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Updates from the front...

and first off... THANK YOU SPCR !!! :D

Having received the final most vital component today (My Enermax NoiseTaker 475), I've been able to rig up a test-version of my rig (current codename "Sanctuary") ;).

Well - it's currently got the following specs, to recap:

AccoustiCase 6607 (Black) + AccoustiPack
Enermax NoiseTaker 475
Intel D875PBZ
P4 3.4 GHz Prescott
Thermalrigh SP-94 + Panaflo L1A 92 mm fan (with Arctic Silver Ceramique)
1 GB Crucial mem.
2 x 250 GB Western Digital S-ATA / 8MB Cache HD's
2 x Evercool 120 mm Aluminium fans.


- MSI GeForce FX 5200 (no fan)
- Some DVD-ROM I dug up.

And here were my first two reactions:
"Holy mackerel - that thing is LOUD ..."

Then I noticed that I'd pumped all the fans at max Voltage on my Zalman Fancontroller. Ooops ... having corrected that, I checked in the BIOS the temperatures ... so far, I'm running the followin setup:
Both 120 mm Evercool fans at 5-6V ... inaudible :).
The 92 mm Panaflo fan is currently running at max - it's quiet even so, I'll refine it's setting once I am playing around with CPU burn :).

My second reaction, when trying to install Win XP on it...

"Holy cow, that DVD-ROM is a hurricane..."

And then it occured to me. I heard the DVD-ROM drive above any fan, any PSU, and two kick-ass HD's. And it's a shoddy (yet functional) DVD-ROM which was only half-mounted, just so I could get it connected up ...

... and with the DVD-ROM in "normal" quiet mode ... the box is quiter than my P3 RIG !!! :D

So - the DVD-ROM is going to be replaced with an LG 4082B very soon (matter of days), I'm going to risk a gamble and try the 4082 instead of the recommended 4081. Decided to go LG rather than with the NEC-2500 in the end ... no orders made yet, but mind is pretty firm :).

The Graphics card - at this moment - is going to end up an ATI X800 Platinum - either the Hitech quiet variant (I hope), or the Sapphire Toxic (quiet) variant ... at this point, I am dubious about getting the GeForce 6800 Ultra cool and quiet...

So far, the box is a pretty hefty success, if I may pronounce as much. The Evercool PSU is a darn nifty piece of kit, I'll say that much, quiet as a breeze - so far (until I get used to it, I assume ... :D). All nice, good quality components.

I've got you lot to thank for it. My heartfelt thanks.

Now ... to wait for the "finale" - the new DVD-Writer and the graphics card of my choice ... :D

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