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 Post subject: Doing it backwards -- Vancouver BC system building advice
PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 11:28 pm 
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Posts: 13
Over dinner this evening, my family told me they wanted me to replace their old PC with a brand new system. The machine is from the stone age and has been in steady decline: MS Outlook now takes 6 minutes to load on Windows XP Pro.

The existing PC is used for office apps and internet connectivity, and its case fan whines like there's no tomorrow. I would like to get them a new system, and I would like the new machine to be as quiet as possible, preferrably without any cutting or "hard core" mods that require specialized tools.

I have been out of the PC loop for quite some time, following very different personal and professional vocations. I'm comfortable putting together a PC from scratch, but for time's sake I would prefer to buy a pre-configured system and specify certain "component swaps" that would make the local resellers' configuration more "SPC friendly." Would anyone "in the know" be willing to offer up some suggestions on how I could piece together a system from the following local retailers (all prices in Canadian $):

http://www.atic.ca
http://www.frontierpc.com/

It's been a long time since I followed IT trends, but from my brief survey of the forums this evening I get the sense that the Pentium M is the way to go right now. I have a budget of around $1500, and would like to get the best "bang for the buck" for that amount of money. Simplicity is important to me -- I'm willing to suspend a hard drive with bungee cord and that sort of thing, but I just don't have the time to do any of the more interesting mods.

As of today, what would be a good mobo, CPU, HD, cooling, video card (mostly 2D w/ dvi out) combination? I am open to different form factors and platforms, however I would like to run Windows XP Pro.

I could get away with a very lean CPU since my family does not require much more than an office application/internet/dvd watching solution, but I'd still like to get the most powerful quiet system I can for this amount of money so that the machine will last them as long as possible.

I will probaly pair the machine to a 17" LCD display.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I realize this sounds like a total newbie post -- that's what happens when you take an extended leave of absence ;)

Many thanks for your insight!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 11:44 am 
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Another way of phrasing this question would be "as a SPC enthusiast, if you were building a new general purpose home system today, what would you choose for ~ $1500?"

I'm pretty sure I can source most things locally (the two aforementioned sites are where I've shopped before) -- if there is a particular component such as a quiet power supply that needs to come from the States, I'll get it shipped to my mailing address just South of the border and drive down to pick it up.

Any suggestions are most welcome!


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 Post subject: Re: Doing it backwards -- Vancouver BC system building advic
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:51 pm 
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Vincent231 wrote:
I'm comfortable putting together a PC from scratch, but for time's sake I would prefer to buy a pre-configured system and specify certain "component swaps" that would make the local resellers' configuration more "SPC friendly."


I'm kind of confused about this. If you're going to be swapping things I would say just buy exactly what you need component by component. You can get plenty of advice here and we can let you know every single thing you will need though.

Ok, going in the order you listed, I'll give me recs. But, what level of quiet are you hoping to achieve? Also, it depends how much tinkering you are willing to do with undervolting.

Because you said bang for your buck, I would rule out the Pentium M chips. They're fast and cool, but bang for buck they are not.

If you get an athlon 64 and a motherboard that can control fan speed, you are off to a really good start, all you have to do is enable cool'n'quiet.

If you are willing to undervolt an athlon 64, then you're off to a GREAT inexpensive start.

I don't have experience with undervolting the socket 939 A64s, but I have a socket 754 A64 3000+ newcastle that I undervolt to 1.1V at 2.0GHz. (This is very low power use)

So just speaking from experience, I would highly recommend getting a S754 3000+ and an ASUS K8N-e motherboard. If you don't plan to undervolt, then I would just get a socket 939 CPU and motherboard, but I can't give you a specific board that I rec.
$270US


Next you need memory, and I'm not much of an expert in this dept, but 512MB of PC3200 DDR should be plenty, but I can't really recommend a brand. I'm sure others can. If you go socket 939, you're going to want to go dual channel, so you'll need two sticks of 256mb, if you go S 754, just one stick of 512MB will do the trick.
~$100US


Next is the HD. Get a samsung spinpoint. Try to find one with a Nidec motor, don't know where you should look though. If you get one with a JVC, you're still in pretty darn good shape.
~$81US for 120 gig.

Cooling: For the CPU just get a zalman 7000 AlCu. It does the trick, comes with a fan, and a speed controller.
$35US

Video Card: Not an expert in this department, so I can't give you the best recommendation probably. If you need a pretty good card for gaming that is silent, I know this is a good option, you can find it on Newegg: SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9600XT Video Card, 128MB DDR, 128-bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP, Model "ULTIMATE RADEON 9600XT " -RETAIL.
$175US
There are LOTS of other options though. If you won't be doing intense gaming, there's a good chance a regular radeon 9600 will be just fine, and that only costs about $70.

Case and power supply: Easiest way to go is with an Antec Sonata or BQE. I prefer the looks of the Sonata because it has a more plain front face, and it also has more front panel connectors. but many here prefer the BQE, its up to you. They'll both come with a very good power supply, and are quite quiet in their unmodified condition. Again, many other options out there.
~$100US

CD/DVD/CDRW/DVDRW Drive - You can get a samsung Model TS-H552B DVD±RW. $58 and it does EVERYTHING, cd burning and dvd burning. These are supposed to be pretty quiet too as far as I know. Its also black so it can match your black case nicely.

And thats it I think. If you add up everything I listed it comes out to about $900 US without shipping with the more powerful video card. Thats well under your budget, and is one FAST computer for sure. If you really want to spend $1500, go ahead, but I don't think you'll be gaining a whole lot.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 5:19 pm 
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Your question is a bit broad to give you too specific an answer. What I would do in your place is the following:

Take this relative quiet system @ FrontierPC. Then look in the Recommended section on the main site and start customizing it. When you're finished with that, list what you got here. So we can give more specific advise on what to improve.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 1:07 am 
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Casewise, I'd recommend the BQE (even though I only saw the AMB) over the Sonata. The drive rail mechanism and the side holes on the Sonata let way too much dust in and noise out not to mention the relatively small insides.

NEC optical drives are also quiet and are supposed to write with higher quality. Access times are horrible though.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 5:59 pm 
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Thank you all for the suggestions!

dshreter
: the reason I wanted to customize a preconfigured system as opposed to building the system component by component was to save some money... The preconfigured systems tend to be a bit cheaper. Specifying just a few different components like a specific model HDD or a more silent power supply tends to come out cheaper in the end.

Thanks for the Athlon 64 suggestion. I've never built a system arround an Athlon, so I naturally gravitated to the Pentium M, but I admit I have no idea how they're priced.

So, the Samsung Spinpoint is the drive of choice right now? I was kind of wondering about the HDD in particular, since the recommended list hasn't been updated in a while and new products are always coming out. Do you know how to identify ones with the Nidec motor? Is there a particular serial # range to look for?

I'll get the Zalman 7000 ALCu. I think I installed one in my current system... I didn't use the speed controller though and just went with a software app called SpeedFan, setting max. CPU temps to 50 degrees C.

I may just go with a Matrox board for the video card, as they have a reputation for strong 2D quality, and noone will likely be using the system for 3D games.

Thanks also for the BQE suggestion. I'll look it up. I built my own system in a Sonata, but I don't find the power supply to be that quiet. Is the BQE PS any better? I guess I could just buy it, see how it is, and then change it for a Seasonic Tornado or something if necessary.

Thanks for taking the time to make all those suggestions.

Tibors: Thanks for that link. Many similarities to what dshreter was suggesting. I'll have a more in depth look next time I can get away to do some SPC research and post my findings here.

bircakb: Thanks for your thoughts too! The system Tibors links to includes an IDE CDRW Drive called ASUS QUIETRACK (52X32X52 CDRW BLACK w/ FLEXTRALINK/ FLEXTRASPEED (RETAIL BOX) CRW-5232AS/BK). I'd prefer a recordable DVD solution, so I guess I'll have to do a bit more research on which ones are quiet. I'm not so concerned about recording noise, since that will be a generally rare occurence on this machine, but I'd like DVD playback to be be near-silent, if possible.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2004 4:06 pm 
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Location: AB, Canada
atic.ca is pretty good and their prices are great (never bought anything from them, but i know a few people locally that prefer their kludgy mail-order to local stores), but i suspect they'd look at you funny if you tried to ask them to make something quiet. they don't really seem to carry anything that would qualify anyways, aside from Zalman coolers. if i were local to atic, i'd just buy everything from them, put it together and find fans etc somewhere else.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2004 12:21 pm 
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Personally I'd avoid atic and go with ncix.com. You pay more compared to Atic, but the customer service is much better imo.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:25 pm 
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When I want to buy just parts and assemble it myself, I would first run a search through www.pricenetwork.ca to see the best prices. Most often NCIX doesn't have the best prices.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:53 pm 
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Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Living in Vancouver & having helped to spur interest in the silenct pc market among local retailers, I can say a couple of things:

1) Don't let minute price differences (say less than 3-5%) put you to one store versus another. Choose on the basis of the service they can offer if you need it. If you never have to deal with a bad part, then buy on price alone. :roll: Otherwise, the lowest prices aren't always worth it.

2) FrontierPC has been building quiet PCs for the longest time here in Vanc. That's got to count for something. They're also a sponsor of SPCR and since they help us, I like to recommend them.

3) "stock" configs of most systems offered by local retailers don't have good enough parts, particularly case & PSU, to make them worth considering unless it is a system spec'd to be quiet. By good enough, I mean quiet enough.

My short list for a $1500 system (before taxes?) --

* A64-3000 - 939 w/ Winchester core (90nm)
* Any reasonably featured 939 board, probably nVidia chipset, but VIA is fine too. There are cheaper 939 boards now that are quite loaded.
* Seasonic 350/400 Super Tornado -- make sure it is a rev.A3
* Any mid-low range VGA card
* 120-160G Samsung SP series w/8mb cache -- make sure you suspend it
* 512mb RAM - 2 sticks
* LG / Samsung / Asus Quietrack optical drive
* Antec 3000 case -- these should be available locally very soon if not already
* Nexus 120mm fans
* Any number of HSF -- Thermalright w/Panaflo 80L or Nexus 80/92 fans, Zalma 7000, etc.
* Maybe a fan controller like the Zalman milti-channel one (min 5V is safer for general users) or just a separate internal Zalman fanmate for each fan -- set and leave alone.

The above should need nothing but undervolting of the fans and the HDD suspension to be very very quiet. It will also be pretty fast.

Good luck, have fun. :)

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Last edited by MikeC on Sun Dec 05, 2004 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 8:34 pm 
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Posts: 104
Location: Vancouver, BC Canada
Vincent231,

I just bought a Samsung 80G sata with Nedic motor. The word "Nedic" is marked on the center bottom of the drive. You'll be able to see it if you are buying an oem drive in static bag.


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 Post subject: Suggestions
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:05 pm 
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:D nice budget.. Hope i can give u some helpful recommendations.. i'm not gonna elaborate on them (unless questioned). I'll jus keep in mind u want quiet (i do too). i rarely listen to anything loud. I vacuum with earplugs. So here they are.. (I'm a modder on budget, that's picky, so my system would be different).

case = I would recommend the AMS gtower but since u are not wanting to mod.. here are some features to have if u are not too conscious about cost, yet aren't crazy. Pick a sturdy, thick aluminum case w/thick side panels w/o vent holes; removable motherboard tray (?); sturdy drive cage; rear fan (120mm would be excellent); side panel fan at PCI card corner; top blowhole; noise dampening, sturdy feet; at least four external 5-1/4 bays (3s k if there was a reason). The wider the case, the less the noise. and get a case that looks good (for ur kids sake too).. Personally, antec cases are ugly except the aria. Also remember a lot of things can be connected externally.

power supply = one of the most important. lotsa PS related problems. and its also one of the first things to utterly fail so get a good one (esp if heat and dust is problem). PFC (active-passive) or non-PFC is not really important but PFC recommended cuz less power goes through ur PSU. Seasonic over-price but v.good.. but Fortron will do. get one with the large fans under it.. it'll handle stress better.. there's some with blowers in them that's good. minimum 350 watt.. look at amperage on each line. watch out for the ones with high rated wattages that cost nothing and i would not get PS with 3 fans. i would not go fancy with windows on PSU unless u are electronically wise. and if u aren't a savy PSU person then dun trust namebrands cuz computer parts manufacturers are different then PSU manufacturers..

cpu = doesn't really matter.. athlon or pentiums. of course get lastest generation though and see correlating motherboards to see what features go with it and which ones support the newest hardwares. the new heatsinks from intel are fine, aren't noisy, and perform well (even if I won't use it) but lots depend on ur case temp. dun worry about speed until u get the price of all ur components together.

motherboard = not that important even though its one of the most important, so pick a reliable one with all the features u need and will need.. PCi-e?, northbridge fan?, check layout of MB. some motherboards handle problems better then others. get a namebrand. intel is not namebrand.

memory = at least get rams with a heatsink and that matches or exceeds ur FBS. middle of the road within a company is good. memory gets cheaper and its not a bottleneck unless u have too little. memories of same speed check CAS.

videocard = at least radeon 9600 or nvida 5700 speed. DX9 support?.. 128 bit or 256 bit architecture with at least 128 MB of v.fast memory. cooling esp important. lotsa of problems come from hot videocards. get rid of the small videocard fan.

harddrive = WD raptor.. wouldn't trade its performance for any ata drive i can think of.

fans = i've spent tons on fans.. fans are sexy. well, many misleading figures. for quiet. I recommend the 3 speed 35mm thick artic cooling one and the riflebearing fans (which use cheap leds) from coolermaster. One fan I havn't tried are the ones with a grill housing for multidirectional air intake. I also havn't tried the blowers but they should be good.. blowers are sexy and i think are better spot coolers. i would also get a zalman fan bracket and put a 120 mm fan on there to cool the processor. forgot the fan on the heatsink thing.

fan configuration in a case.. top fan as a intake instead of a blowhole to help cool ur ram as well as motherboard. side fan as intake. front fans. intake.. u also need an exhaust fan unless ur case has enough ways air can get out so there's no hot spots. so i would use the rear fan logically as an exhaust, unless ur PSU does the job well. hey if ur PSU was good i'd turn around the fan inside ur psu to pull air into ur computer (dun electrocute urself). a net positive force will keep dust out. If u balance it right it would be quiet. oh.. for the video get pci cooler.. there's one with like a 120mm fan on it. (You do not have to be blowing right up at the videocard. that puts more dust in there anyways). Also get a fan controller but if u have kids who like mess around place the controller inside of case. lotsa viable, w/o gettin too exotic, ways to quiet ur pc.. like vinyl sound barrier, fan insulators, heatpipes.. i'm in debate about the value of grommets, besides quieting ur drives. I'd rather jus put dampening material along drive cage and a sound dampener between drive bays. remember static electricity too.. its dangerous.

for 1500 u should be able to include a nice monitor, speakers, mouse, keyboard.. etc.

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 Post subject: paint for case
PostPosted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 10:18 pm 
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also get scratch resistant case.. or paint it.. i wanna find a clear or glittery heat conductive pant or maybe sound deadening paint.

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 Post subject: Re: Suggestions
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 3998
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Vincent, I would ignore nearly everything the Zyrin just posted. The earlier advice (from MikeC particularly) was much better.

For educational purposes, here's what's wrong with Zryin's list. I'm not meaning to pick on you personally Zyrin, but your list is an almost perfect example of how not to think about silent-PC components. To not comment on it would imply agreement

Zyrin wrote:
case = I would recommend the AMS gtower....Pick a sturdy, thick aluminum case.....removable motherboard tray....sturdy drive cage....side panel fan at PCI card corner....top blowhole....noise dampening....at least four external 5-1/4 bays....The wider the case, the less the noise.


Wow, lots to rethink there:

Probably the most important factor to look for in a case is ventilation, particularly the front intake. Your system can't breathe if it can't get air in. The gTower has a particularly poor intake, you'd have to do some serious modding to make it on par with some of the better choices out there.

Aluminum cases should be avoided. Aluminum has a tendency to hum, or resonate, much more than a steel case would. It's also more expensive. The one positive that aluminum cases do have is lower weight, which doesn't seem like a feature that Vincent is going for.

A removable motherboard tray is a useless feature for someone like Vincent who isn't likely to be tinkering with their machine often.

Side panel fans and blowholes are options to be avoided, not sought-after. They put a fan directly in the path to the user's ears, and their usefulness for system cooling is dubious at best. (adding a side fan often raises temps instead of lowering them, by disrupting the airflow patterns within the case)

Save dampening to be as a last resort. Dampening is really only useful for removing that last lingering bit of noise, rather than trying to quiet loud components. For the time/money it requires, there are better solutions.

Why would you possibly need 4 5.25" bays?

And where did you get the idea that a wider case is less noisey?



Zyrin wrote:
PFC (active-passive) or non-PFC is not really important but PFC recommended cuz less power goes through ur PSU....get one with the large fans under it.. it'll handle stress better.. there's some with blowers in them that's good....minimum 350 watt....and if u aren't a savy PSU person then dun trust namebrands cuz computer parts manufacturers are different then PSU manufacturers.


Zyrin needs to do more reading on what PFC is. Having Active PFC is good for your electric bill, and the environment.

The size of the fan mounted to the PSU has little or nothing to do with how it will handle stress.

The few PSU's on the market with blowers in them are all generally too loud to be considered for a quiet-PC. If you're picking the PSU yourself, look to our recommended list for guidance.

I'm not exactly sure what Z's trying to say in the namebrands bit. Yes, many of the "namebrand" PSU's on the market aren't made by the company whose label is on them; Zalman, Nexus, etc, etc. But that's no reason not to buy them.


Zyrin wrote:
cpu = doesn't really matter.. athlon or pentiums. of course get lastest generation though ....the new heatsinks from intel are fine, aren't noisy, and perform well


If anything, the choice between AMD vs Intel matters now more than ever. And whatever you do, do not get the latest generation of Intel CPU. If you do, for some reason, go Intel, go with one of the previous generation Northwood's, rather than the newer Prescotts. And the stock heatsinks from either CPU manufacturer will likely be too loud for your tastes, you should plan on buying an aftermarket heatsink from the very beginning.



Zyrin wrote:
motherboard = not that important even though its one of the most important, so pick a reliable one with all the features u need and will need.. PCi-e?, northbridge fan?, check layout of MB. some motherboards handle problems better then others. get a namebrand. intel is not namebrand.


I'll agree that you should pick on based on the features you want and need. (I'd look for one without a northbridge fan) If you go the intel path, the intel boards would be a fine choice. They're not the highest performing, but they are rock stable.



Zyrin wrote:
memory = at least get rams with a heatsink and that matches or exceeds ur FBS. middle of the road within a company is good. memory gets cheaper and its not a bottleneck unless u have too little. memories of same speed check CAS.


Heatsinks on RAM is a marketing tool designed to remove money from the pockets of the foolish. If the memory happens to have them its fine, but it should never be a buying consideration...it adds nothing to the performance of the RAM. And there is no reason at all to buy RAM that is rated for higher than the FSB of the CPU. (unless you're overclocking, which Vincent isn't) Faster rating does not equal faster. I'd say that 1gig of medium-price level, name brand stuff of whatever flavor your CPU requires is a pretty safe bet.


Zyrin wrote:
videocard = at least radeon 9600 or nvida 5700 speed. DX9 support?.. 128 bit or 256 bit architecture with at least 128 MB of v.fast memory. cooling esp important. lotsa of problems come from hot videocards. get rid of the small videocard fan.


For what you're actually doing with the machine, pretty much any video card on the market today would work perfectly. If you go with a pre-configured system, whatever their bottom-rung VGA option is would generally be fine. There are fanless 9600's available, which would be an excellent choice.


Zyrin wrote:
harddrive = WD raptor.. wouldn't trade its performance for any ata drive i can think of.


The tiny performance boost of Raptor comes at a big noise (and price) penalty. The Samsungs are a much better option for those not needed to be on the bleeding edge.


Zyrin wrote:
fans = .........


Too much there to even start discussing. Go with a quiet, low flow fan at the exhaust only to start with. The Nexus fans are probably the #1 default choice right now. Intake fans, PCi-slot fans, blowholes out the top, intakes in the side, etc, are all prety much useless. About the only reason to add an intake fan is if your HDD is running overly warm.


Hope that helps clarify things. :lol:

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 Post subject: hi
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:47 pm 
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I do not think there's anything wrong with my view. I believe you are placing ur standards of what a computer ought to be on to vincent and questioning my considerations without foresight.. We should ask him the specs on his old computer, how old it is, the last time he opened it.. is he mindful of his computer.. etc. u cannot ignore a computer whose case temperatures are in the 40s because its silent. if u do, when it becomes dusty that will rise by 5. but here is my response (its up to him to decide). he's gonna by a preconfigured system anyways.

There are other things to consider when u wanna make ur computer silent. Even in a 12x12 room, a modern computer can drastically change its temperature. You also have to consider the humidity/altitude/environment/conditions. These things are also important when u are running your computer hotter to keep it silent.. Are you the type that would notice and change ur computer settings in the winter and then in the summer? heat degradation of components are linear to a certainn point then becomes logarithmic with each degree rise in temperature.

The removable motherboard tray is a luxury and it is something to look out for. At a certain spendage level you can also consider it something that should be afforded by the manufacturer without sacrifice to performance.

Yes, aluminum resonate more then steel, especially at higher frequencies but the argument between the two is mute when u consider the advantages of aluminum, especially, in cases utilizing thick aluminum material (the side panels on many steel case are not stiff anyways). Aluminum dissipate heat better from the MB. Aluminum is less conductive then steel. Dust is less a problem on aluminum cases. Aluminum is easier to mod. I did say the gTower is for modders, btw.

I would not define the raptor as bleeding edge. It would be just like saying a 30db system on this forum is bleeding edge silence. I would say that other drives are behind in technology. performance-wise rusty is exaggerating the noise of the drive and you should check out the benchmarks. I would not think the noise it makes in an acoustic chamber would be more then most drives.. drives are usually only noticable when in seek mode.

Side-panel fans and blowholes can be covered up if not needed but are there for extra cooling. Of course cool air traveling short distance will stay cooler and the front intake does not have to be the only place air comes in to cool ur case. If you have enough fans running at low speeds, quietness can be achieved. aluminum is an easy material to mod and insulate. I do not agree that dampering is a last resort thing. u do not need to spend much to dampen ur system (most dampering products are extrememly overpriced for computer usage). I think its ridiculous to seriously talk about airflow dynamics in a computer case even if its sealed. direct cooling of hot components with fresh air is best. if there was a strong enough airflow to keep everything warm, it would not be too silent. an acrylic case or some sensor could prove if this was the case.

the ways things are worked out, PFC does not help ur electrical bills.. using a smaller power supply will.

i can't say much on the cpu thing.. jus that it won't mean much in the long run and you aren't going bleeding edge. what's more important is the chipset and features of the motherboard and where that will take u. with the speed that computer technology is advancing, by the time u need a new computer, upgrading would be questionable. also if you are going with intel, prescots cost the same as northwoods but with bigger performance. it is tad hotter.

saying heatsinks on ram is a marketing tool when you are trying to silence your computer and keep it as cool and stable as possible is being reckless. memories of same speed rating may offer little difference in performance but if you are overclocking or reducing the cooling ability of ur computer (even if it becomes more efficient) memory is very important and a ram heatspreader is recommended. How much is it really adding to cost? namebrand isn't important.

Nowadays, all i can say is that i do not see how having ur powersupply fan as your only exhuast fan is smart. I would say the first thing to fail would be ur powersupply and do consider, insufficient cooling cause things to start gettin noisy faster.

how is a fan 14db with 23cfm @ 1500 rpm any different then one that goes 18-28db 18-32 cfm @ 1500-2400 rpm? especially when the 14 db cost twice as much. it also only has a mtfb of 30k also (though that spec doesn't mean much). that's Y u have a fan controller even if it adds a neglible about of heat.

I will state that the rifle bearing fan has the quietest motor and ic's i've experienced even if i dun ken if i dun know what it is. Papst is great too. I have yet to try the nexus but it must be good.

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 Post subject: Re: hi
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 8:46 pm 
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
Zyrin, I have zero desire to get into a pissing contest with you, really.

But....I really think you should do more reading, both here and otherwise. There are numerous items in both the above reply, and your original response that are just simply wrong. Nearly all of them have been discussed here, repeated, in both articles and in the forums.

In the interest of brevity, I will highlight only a couple of the most flagrant:

Zyrin wrote:
u (sic) cannot ignore a computer whose case temperatures are in the 40s because its silent. if u (sic) do, when it becomes dusty that will rise by 5.


Yes, actually, you can. There's nothing wrong with a 45° case temp.


Zyrin wrote:
heat degradation of components are linear to a certainn point then becomes logarithmic with each degree rise in temperature.


Any science to back that up? Didn't think so. Even running at the very edge of their thermal envelope the physical lifespan for PC components is generally far beyond their useful lifespan. So what if your CPU dies in 10 years instead of 20?


Zyrin wrote:
Aluminum dissipate heat better from the MB. Aluminum is less conductive then steel. Dust is less a problem on aluminum cases.


That paragraph alone signifies you as someone who does not know what they are talking about. Wrong on every point, except maybe for the dust bit, which is just nonsensical.

Zyrin wrote:
I would not think the noise it makes in an acoustic chamber would be more then most drives.. drives are usually only noticable when in seek mode.


If that is your honest answer then you probably shouldn't be giving anyone advice on building a quiet computer. You've clearly got plenty to learn. Type less, read more.



Zyrin wrote:
Side-panel fans and blowholes can be covered up if not needed but are there for extra cooling.


Have you read any of the comparison articles on what happens to the temps when you actually add a side panel or blowhole fan? Do you have a sidepanel fan on your current machine? Try unplugging it and seeing what happens.

Zyrin wrote:
If you have enough fans running at low speeds, quietness can be achieved.


Adding more fans only adds to the noise. If adding a sidepanel fan doesn't help the cooling (which it usually doesn't) why add it?


Zyrin wrote:
I think its ridiculous to seriously talk about airflow dynamics in a computer case even if its sealed. direct cooling of hot components with fresh air is best. if there was a strong enough airflow to keep everything warm, it would not be too silent. an acrylic case or some sensor could prove if this was the case.


Do a search in the forums for Bluefront's rigs. They alone disprove your theory.


Zyrin wrote:
PFC does not help ur electrical bills.. using a smaller power supply will.


Completely, totally wrong. Using a smaller PSU will not lower your machine's power draw. May I suggest some light reading: Power Supply Fundamentals

Zyrin wrote:
also if you are going with intel, prescots cost the same as northwoods but with bigger performance. it is tad hotter.


Also wrong. Prescotts are significantly hotter and have less performance per clock than the Northwoods do.


Zyrin wrote:
saying heatsinks on ram is a marketing tool when you are trying to silence your computer and keep it as cool and stable as possible is being reckless. memories of same speed rating may offer little difference in performance but if you are overclocking or reducing the cooling ability of ur computer (even if it becomes more efficient) memory is very important and a ram heatspreader is recommended.


Recomended by who? If your temps get to the point where your RAM is failing, you have much more serious issues to deal with.

Zyrin wrote:
Nowadays, all i can say is that i do not see how having ur powersupply fan as your only exhuast fan is smart.


Try reading the stickies, that's been the consensus here for a long, long time.


Zyrin, there's nothing wrong with admitting you don't know everything. You've very recently stumbled into this forum where these topics have been discussed, at great length and depth, by a large number of people, for a long time. This entire community is dedicated in large part to debunking the myths that you hold as truth. (aluminum cases cooling better, more fans=better cooling, etc, etc) Do yourself, and everyone else a favor, and do as the FAQ for Newbies: Please read this first!! sticky suggests, and read, read, read....and then post.

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Senior Contributing Writer, SPCR


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 Post subject: k.. a finality
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 1:22 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:15 pm
Posts: 17
haha, I dont' think its a pissing argument. You apparently are asking to get to know me better.. lol.. I do not disagree with the theories about how u can quiet a pc. I disagree with ur perspective and ur attitude of fetting ur opinions on others. what does great length and depth imply? reading that faq was the first thing i did when i joined the forum. I'm just gettin acquainted with the layout of the forum and evidently people like you with ur cynicisms. please define myths.. you have made the assumption of truth, and simplified what i wrote. if you read what i wrote in the right context you would not care soo much.. "Nowadays.. as in what system are u running" (evidently it isn't close to being a top of the line one) and i know the people in ths forum are pushing the industry for silent products (which is an eventuality) and informing peope of what they are actually getting.. the 99% against 1.

I have known ths website for a long time. maybe couple years. its not a recent stumble.. I just thought to join the computer mass to see what everyone else thinks.

i've stated that prescotts are hotter but netherless, let me elaborate and say that in many systems they run at nearly the same temperatures as northwoods. how can you say less performance per clock? there is reason for this when it does occur though even if its no surprise.

a CPU has no moving parts and thus can run at higher temperatures. but harddrives, as well as fans, do have moving parts. Not to mention the efficiency of power supplies at higher temperatures and other motherboard components that hold power. I'm not talkin about 10 or 20 years, more like 2 or 3 years in the real world. and symptoms resulting from unstable memories are one of the first signs that your computer is overheated. a case temperature of like 45 degrees relate to cpu temps of 15 degrees higher. The physical lifespan of an individual component may be long but there's more to factor when they are connected.

lol.. who said a smaller psu will lower ur machine's power draw? how is an aluminum case holding in heat? You'd have to put a sensor at many pts in a case to even know the effect. and simple logic is that aluminum gets hotter. and you can actually cool the aluminum. Are u like talkin terminology or something?

it is gay of you to think i havn't experimented with my fans. Yes, my computer has a sidefan and I made the opening for it myself. my MB reports sys temps between 27-29. before that 28-34.

yes, that bluefront guy is very active on this forum. apparently, he's a great member. i have heard of instances of adding fans only to have temps rise. i do not doubt that.. but nevertheless interesting. I will look and see; and we'll end our debate here and if u want u can even have the last laugh.

_________________
=) rocks become pebbles. everything becomes silent.


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