Hello everyone, this is my first post here so I hope I pull this off right.
Some background information: While I am an experienced system builder in general, I have come across some major difficulties trying to build a new Mini-ITX for general use.
Goals:
Small PC build to replace my Atom Nettop (Which was not very good to begin with to be honest). Low idle power consumption, low noise... yet maintain the ability to be reasonably powerful so I don't need to always use my "big box".
Parts list:
LIAN LI PC-Q08B Black Aluminum Mini-ITX Tower Computer Case
COOLER MASTER Silent Pro M600 RS-600-AMBA-D3 600W
Intel Core i5-2500K Sandy Bridge 3.3GHz
Intel BOXDQ67EPB3 LGA 1155 Intel Q67 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard
XIGMATEK Durin D982 92mm Rifle Ultra Low profile CPU Cooler
The problem:
First off, the HSF would not fit the Intel board with components blocking on the backside. Second, the board did not support the CPU. Third, the stock HSF isnt very good for cooling and/or noise... let alone Intel apparently does not support it officially for Mini-ITX use. Clearly I may have made a mistake trying to put a i5-2500k into a Mini-ITX build.
First attempt to solve:
GIGABYTE GA-H67N-USB3-B3 LGA 1155 Intel H67 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Mini ITX Intel Motherboard (Only a few days later, now deactivated?! Why?)
OK, better now. The HSF fits (barely) and it does not exhibit the standard "Gigabyte Squeal" that my other two Gigabyte boards possess. Total system idle under Win 7 with all fans hooked up, CPU, SSD = 28W. Great, were getting somewhere! Loading it up with Prime95 it gets a bit warm (especially the MB temps) with 60-65C for CPU and 57C for MB. No stability issues.
The next problem:
Well the integrated video is still lackluster for even light gaming. Even Minecraft was a slideshow at 1920x1080. Ok, I'll put in my nVidia GT 240... a good video card for light gaming and the idle draw is miniscule. Well... damn. The video card won't fit because of the CPU HSF!
Build pictures:
The board mounted with HSF and memory installed. Memory barely clears the heatpipes.
http://i.imgur.com/oho0B.jpg
Uh oh! The thumbscrews of the HSF on the video card block the install because the HSF is so close to the PCI-E slot.
http://i.imgur.com/hWWhp.jpg
I've pondered abandoning the build and returning the whole lot (minus the cpu obviously, since its non-refundable). Go Micro-ATX in a slightly larger case and have more breathing room not to mention expandability and extra eSata ports which I would love to have.
However, I would love to salvage this build if possible. Is there a GT 240 equivalent (Radeon 6670?) that has a flush blackside that would squeeze in there? It needs to have a controllable fan instead of the standard 2-wire always full blast HSF. I won't mind a video card that requires external power as long as it has low idle power draw and will fit into the case. I won't mind just getting an i3-2100 and throwing that in there as well and limiting the computer to its designated purpose... replacing my "always on" nettop. Play a few simpler games now and then without needing my gaming rig as well as having enough CPU power to handle the occasional VM or video transcode.
Bottom line:
The case is quiet, the board is quiet/works (no gigabyte squeal), the power supply is quiet, the idle power draw is great so far. The add-in video card and/or poor choice of CPU HSF is creating my woes!
Sorry for the long winded post, but I figured I would lay it all out there. If I salvage this build I can always put the i5-2500k to use as upgrading my gaming rig with a proper Micro-ATX/Standard ATX board.
Thanks in advance.
Looking for advice to salvage my Mini-ITX build (CPU/Video)
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee
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croccydile
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Looking for advice to salvage my Mini-ITX build (CPU/Video)
Last edited by croccydile on Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Looking for advice to salvage my Mini-ITX build (CPU/Vid
Well the problem is that the CPU position on these mini-ITX boards varies a little, and with such little clearance between the HSF and the PCI-E it's something of a lottery whether you get the collisions you're seeing.
Take a look at the Prolimatech Samuel 17. That's reasonably compact and quite asymmetric IIRC, so you might be able to find an orientation that fits. I think that's the key here.
To give you some heart - I have two systems based around the PC-Q08, both have add-in PCI-E cards and large HSFs:
- RAID controller + Prolimatech Samuel in one, this has an i5-2500 in it
- GTX570 + Thermalright AXP-140 in the other, atop an i7-2600
Granted neither use the board you've chosen (Intel boards in both cases), however I'm going to try to upgrade the second system to use that board and my research on t'internet threw up other builds with that board and the AXP-140 and a graphics card. So the AXP-140 might be worth looking at too (though it is rather big!).
Take a look at the Prolimatech Samuel 17. That's reasonably compact and quite asymmetric IIRC, so you might be able to find an orientation that fits. I think that's the key here.
To give you some heart - I have two systems based around the PC-Q08, both have add-in PCI-E cards and large HSFs:
- RAID controller + Prolimatech Samuel in one, this has an i5-2500 in it
- GTX570 + Thermalright AXP-140 in the other, atop an i7-2600
Granted neither use the board you've chosen (Intel boards in both cases), however I'm going to try to upgrade the second system to use that board and my research on t'internet threw up other builds with that board and the AXP-140 and a graphics card. So the AXP-140 might be worth looking at too (though it is rather big!).
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MikeC
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Re: Looking for advice to salvage my Mini-ITX build (CPU/Vid
Have you seen our SFF Gaming / File server build guide? -- http://www.silentpcreview.com/Silent_Ho ... Total_Cost
We used a Scythe Samurai ZZ, and it worked fine for us. Managed to run a Radeon HD5750 extremely quietly -- that has a TDP of 86W -- same as the more recent HD6750.
We used a Scythe Samurai ZZ, and it worked fine for us. Managed to run a Radeon HD5750 extremely quietly -- that has a TDP of 86W -- same as the more recent HD6750.
Re: Looking for advice to salvage my Mini-ITX build (CPU/Vid
The Q08 is a nice case for building a SFF PC, it can fit very good components, im going to point you into a thread that might be useful in your situation, same case, same PSU, same mobo, Mini ITX H67 Silent Gaming System, i really doubt its silent by spcr standards, cause some of his choices, but from that thread you can see that the Q08 can fit the Thermalright AXP140 with standard ATX PSU on a Gigabyte motherboard, i think this would be the best cooler you could use on your setup, just gotta be careful with your choice of ram (because of the height, but by your picture seems you mushkin should fit). I would undervolt the fan though, the included fan is 1500rpm, probably will be noisy at those lvls, so undervolt it via bios (if your mobo supports it) or via Zalman FAN MATE 2, personally i would swap the fan for more quiet like Noiseblocker NB-BlackSilentPro PK-1 140mm x 25mm Ultra Quiet Fan - 700 RPM - 9 dBA and from there see if you need undervolting, i would probably even order 2 one to change the frontal case fan (i dont like led fans but its more a personal choice).
Now for the GPU, check his build, he was able to use a standard GPU with the AXP140, with your mobo and standard ATX PSU, so you can probably pick what ever fit your needs, maybe something like
SAPPHIRE Ultimate 100326UL Radeon HD 6670 (i have my doubts if the top pipe/heatsink will not touch the PSU)
ASUS ENGT440 DC SL/DI/1GD3 GeForce GT 440
GIGABYTE GV-R675SL-1GI Radeon HD 6750
GIGABYTE GV-R677SL-1GD Radeon HD 6770
Now for the GPU, check his build, he was able to use a standard GPU with the AXP140, with your mobo and standard ATX PSU, so you can probably pick what ever fit your needs, maybe something like
SAPPHIRE Ultimate 100326UL Radeon HD 6670 (i have my doubts if the top pipe/heatsink will not touch the PSU)
ASUS ENGT440 DC SL/DI/1GD3 GeForce GT 440
GIGABYTE GV-R675SL-1GI Radeon HD 6750
GIGABYTE GV-R677SL-1GD Radeon HD 6770
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croccydile
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:47 am
Re: Looking for advice to salvage my Mini-ITX build (CPU/Vid
Apologizes for the long post... but I'm trying to be as descriptive as possible to give a clearer picture of whats going on here.
Hey, thanks for the replies. I was seriously considering abandoning the build altogether as I was running out of boards to possibly try that would fit my needs... as well as HSF since my knowledge of low profile coolers is rather poor.
Well given that others have been doing fine with this case, perhaps I was looking at things the wrong way. I've already done a few non-permanent mods to the case and I would really hate to have to pack up 2 mainboards and put the case back to stock for a return. 6+ hours into this build already it would be a waste to try to not salvage it. I've had a few days to sit on it to ponder over what I should do with it.
The issue I have at hand is this particular board the CPU socket is rather tight up against the RAM and PCI-E slot. Rather than try to search for a third mainboard to complete this build... I could try different coolers. I understand the difficulty of trying to make everything work as there are all sorts of combinations possible with Mini-ITX boards being so cramped.
When I get home I'll try to post some additional pics to give a better guide to my problem.
Pros/Cons I see with the case/mainboard so far.
Pro
- Compact, just like my old Shuttle XPC!
- Very quiet and energy efficient so far. It may be a difficult build for me, but it has it where it counts. I'm impressed how the i5-2500k idles at practically nothing.
- It does move a decent amount of air vs. the other Mini-ITX cases I've browsed. Really the front 140mm sells it for me since I've come across other Mini-ITX builds where airflow is a serious issue.
Cons
- Stock fans are not the best and I hate LED fans. I put in a Xigmatek 140mm for the front and a simple Coolermaster 120mm in the top, perhaps a Noctua 120mm I have laying around later. Hence my reluctance to try to get the case back to stock for a return.
- The mainboard could be better, but it seemed the best option. Only 1 eSata and all the internal ports will be used for hard drives/DVD. I have alot of eSata drives. Also, only 1 fan header is controllable. Not really a huge dealbreaker with the ever useful Zalman Fanmate 2 but would have liked more control without having to open the case... which is unscrewing 6 tiny screws rather than a simple slide panel. Am I asking for too much here?
What I'll likely try to do (In order)
- I do have my old 9800 GTX sitting doing nothing. I'll put that in just to get the build usable for now and as a guide for video card clearance, since it should be flush on the backside
- Look into alternative HSFs as you have given suggestions on. I'm not married to the Xigmatek Durin although as far as acoustics it performs fantastically noise wise... could do better for thermals.
- If the HSF does not pan out... purchase an ATI 6670, in particular this card here. On Newegg it was the only one I saw that had a PWM fan. A problem with these cheaper cards are the always full speed cheapo fans. Alternatively there is this card here however it would likely require a fan mod of some sort to prevent overheating.
- Drop in a i3-2100 instead? Perhaps this is user preference, but a i5-2500k is possibly wasted on a Mini-ITX, especially if its not going to primarily be used for gaming? My "main" computer is my Phenom II X6 1090T which is a fine PC, however the i5-2500k is likely going to blow the doors off it performance wise.
One final question: How the hell do you get the DVD drive into the Lian-Li case? I assume the whole thing has to be disassembled first?
I may have blinders on about cases in general as well. I have two of these Lian-Li PC-60FNW and I consider them to be the best cases I have ever owned bar none. You could say I'm a Lian-Li whore :p
Hey, thanks for the replies. I was seriously considering abandoning the build altogether as I was running out of boards to possibly try that would fit my needs... as well as HSF since my knowledge of low profile coolers is rather poor.
Well given that others have been doing fine with this case, perhaps I was looking at things the wrong way. I've already done a few non-permanent mods to the case and I would really hate to have to pack up 2 mainboards and put the case back to stock for a return. 6+ hours into this build already it would be a waste to try to not salvage it. I've had a few days to sit on it to ponder over what I should do with it.
The issue I have at hand is this particular board the CPU socket is rather tight up against the RAM and PCI-E slot. Rather than try to search for a third mainboard to complete this build... I could try different coolers. I understand the difficulty of trying to make everything work as there are all sorts of combinations possible with Mini-ITX boards being so cramped.
When I get home I'll try to post some additional pics to give a better guide to my problem.
Pros/Cons I see with the case/mainboard so far.
Pro
- Compact, just like my old Shuttle XPC!
- Very quiet and energy efficient so far. It may be a difficult build for me, but it has it where it counts. I'm impressed how the i5-2500k idles at practically nothing.
- It does move a decent amount of air vs. the other Mini-ITX cases I've browsed. Really the front 140mm sells it for me since I've come across other Mini-ITX builds where airflow is a serious issue.
Cons
- Stock fans are not the best and I hate LED fans. I put in a Xigmatek 140mm for the front and a simple Coolermaster 120mm in the top, perhaps a Noctua 120mm I have laying around later. Hence my reluctance to try to get the case back to stock for a return.
- The mainboard could be better, but it seemed the best option. Only 1 eSata and all the internal ports will be used for hard drives/DVD. I have alot of eSata drives. Also, only 1 fan header is controllable. Not really a huge dealbreaker with the ever useful Zalman Fanmate 2 but would have liked more control without having to open the case... which is unscrewing 6 tiny screws rather than a simple slide panel. Am I asking for too much here?
What I'll likely try to do (In order)
- I do have my old 9800 GTX sitting doing nothing. I'll put that in just to get the build usable for now and as a guide for video card clearance, since it should be flush on the backside
- Look into alternative HSFs as you have given suggestions on. I'm not married to the Xigmatek Durin although as far as acoustics it performs fantastically noise wise... could do better for thermals.
- If the HSF does not pan out... purchase an ATI 6670, in particular this card here. On Newegg it was the only one I saw that had a PWM fan. A problem with these cheaper cards are the always full speed cheapo fans. Alternatively there is this card here however it would likely require a fan mod of some sort to prevent overheating.
- Drop in a i3-2100 instead? Perhaps this is user preference, but a i5-2500k is possibly wasted on a Mini-ITX, especially if its not going to primarily be used for gaming? My "main" computer is my Phenom II X6 1090T which is a fine PC, however the i5-2500k is likely going to blow the doors off it performance wise.
One final question: How the hell do you get the DVD drive into the Lian-Li case? I assume the whole thing has to be disassembled first?
I may have blinders on about cases in general as well. I have two of these Lian-Li PC-60FNW and I consider them to be the best cases I have ever owned bar none. You could say I'm a Lian-Li whore :p
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croccydile
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:47 am
Re: Looking for advice to salvage my Mini-ITX build (CPU/Vid
Wow, thanks for this! That thread helps ALOT! I did not realize that the DVD front can be changed out... I don't normally need a DVD in this machine. Could be more useful as a memory card reader or such. The HSF seems like a tight fit but it gives much more clearance for video cards as well as everything else on the board... likely has much better cooling as well. I can imagine it is likely quite pricey thoughAbula wrote:The Q08 is a nice case for building a SFF PC, it can fit very good components, im going to point you into a thread that might be useful in your situation, same case, same PSU, same mobo, Mini ITX H67 Silent Gaming System, i really doubt its silent by spcr standards, cause some of his choices, but from that thread you can see that the Q08 can fit the Thermalright AXP140 with standard ATX PSU on a Gigabyte motherboard, i think this would be the best cooler you could use on your setup, just gotta be careful with your choice of ram (because of the height, but by your picture seems you mushkin should fit). I would undervolt the fan though, the included fan is 1500rpm, probably will be noisy at those lvls, so undervolt it via bios (if your mobo supports it) or via Zalman FAN MATE 2, personally i would swap the fan for more quiet like Noiseblocker NB-BlackSilentPro PK-1 140mm x 25mm Ultra Quiet Fan - 700 RPM - 9 dBA and from there see if you need undervolting, i would probably even order 2 one to change the frontal case fan (i dont like led fans but its more a personal choice). Now for the GPU, check his build, he was able to use a standard GPU with the AXP140, with your mobo and standard ATX PSU, so you can probably pick what ever fit your needs, maybe something like
SAPPHIRE Ultimate 100326UL Radeon HD 6670 (i have my doubts if the top pipe/heatsink will not touch the PSU)
ASUS ENGT440 DC SL/DI/1GD3 GeForce GT 440
GIGABYTE GV-R675SL-1GI Radeon HD 6750.
but if it works I'll pay extra.With these large HSFs that use clips for the fan instead of rubber like Xigmatek (why I like them so much) do they transmit bearing noise? I'm getting flashbacks to my old Zalman 9500 HSF.
The ram is temporary as I have 8GB of G.Skill Ripjaws on RMA, which will go into this case. I have 16GB of Muskin in my AMD box and borrowing 8GB to make the build work for now. The Ripjaws do have the funny heat spreaders and may pose an issue with the Thermalright HSF.
At least, seeing it in pictures is hell of alot better than trying to do measurements and guessing whether components will fit or not.
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croccydile
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:47 am
Re: Looking for advice to salvage my Mini-ITX build (CPU/Vid
Ok, I have everything reassembled with the video card. The Noctua 120mm is now in the top of the case, although I'm not certain of how well its handling exhaust. Sadly not exactly the best video card for idle power as well... not by a long shot actually.
Idle jumped to 85W (ow) and thats with manually downclocking as the 9800 GTX superclocked does not automatically change clocks. By default the total system idle is closer to 110W at the wall. Quite a jump from 30W :S
Either way, here are the results of the stress test.
As you can see, the cooler is barely cutting it. Idle averaging 39-40C probably is not very good, and load given 75C is approaching danger. I also have in the BIOS the automatic fan set to as lenient as possible, meaning with increase of temperature a faster increase of fan speed.
Looks like I need to find an alternative, thankfully with the replies here I should be able to do so ^^
Idle jumped to 85W (ow) and thats with manually downclocking as the 9800 GTX superclocked does not automatically change clocks. By default the total system idle is closer to 110W at the wall. Quite a jump from 30W :S
Either way, here are the results of the stress test.
As you can see, the cooler is barely cutting it. Idle averaging 39-40C probably is not very good, and load given 75C is approaching danger. I also have in the BIOS the automatic fan set to as lenient as possible, meaning with increase of temperature a faster increase of fan speed.
Looks like I need to find an alternative, thankfully with the replies here I should be able to do so ^^
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croccydile
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:47 am
Re: Looking for advice to salvage my Mini-ITX build (CPU/Vid
I have the Thermalright AXP-140 on order.
In the meantime I stuck in an EVGA nVidia GTX 550 Ti (About $140 retail) and its well... very fast and idle draw is miniscule! After alot of research into possible candidate cards I came across that the GTX 550 Ti drew even less than ATI 6670 at idle and is significantly faster when it needs to be as well. The total system draw now at idle with the current build is now 51W. Yay! This is with the SSD, video card and 2 x 2TB WD Green drives.
The only drawback is the fan only allows 41% speed as the minimum so it is not terribly quiet but it is acceptable for now. I understand some of you gave links for fanless cards however I am wary of these after my past experience with my fanless 8600 GT a few years back (it cooked itself in no time).
Perhaps someone could shed some light here now. What is a good fan controller that is USB/Host PC controllable? I saw the one in the linked forum post but its quite pricey :/ The major drawback to the Lian-Li case is the side panel having to unscrew it every time you want to make an adjustment, outside of just leaving the side panel off for a bit. I would like to be able to control the top/front fans as well as (is this even possible) the video cards PWM 4-wire fan. Otherwise I may have to invest Scythe Setsugen 2 to quiet that down. Bah, more money spent!
EDIT: I found this http://www.mvktech.net/index.php?option ... 0&id=61184
The stock fan at 20% is SIGNIFICANTLY better than 41%. No custom cooler necessary now ^^
In the meantime I stuck in an EVGA nVidia GTX 550 Ti (About $140 retail) and its well... very fast and idle draw is miniscule! After alot of research into possible candidate cards I came across that the GTX 550 Ti drew even less than ATI 6670 at idle and is significantly faster when it needs to be as well. The total system draw now at idle with the current build is now 51W. Yay! This is with the SSD, video card and 2 x 2TB WD Green drives.
The only drawback is the fan only allows 41% speed as the minimum so it is not terribly quiet but it is acceptable for now. I understand some of you gave links for fanless cards however I am wary of these after my past experience with my fanless 8600 GT a few years back (it cooked itself in no time).
Perhaps someone could shed some light here now. What is a good fan controller that is USB/Host PC controllable? I saw the one in the linked forum post but its quite pricey :/ The major drawback to the Lian-Li case is the side panel having to unscrew it every time you want to make an adjustment, outside of just leaving the side panel off for a bit. I would like to be able to control the top/front fans as well as (is this even possible) the video cards PWM 4-wire fan. Otherwise I may have to invest Scythe Setsugen 2 to quiet that down. Bah, more money spent!
EDIT: I found this http://www.mvktech.net/index.php?option ... 0&id=61184
The stock fan at 20% is SIGNIFICANTLY better than 41%. No custom cooler necessary now ^^