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 Post subject: New Build Advice - Dev/Gaming/Hackintosh
PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:38 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:48 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Australia
Hi All,

I am looking to build my first PC in quite some time!
I have quite a number of requirements that have made this a challenge!
The system must be as quiet as possible, be mac compatible for iOS development and have gaming performance!

Resources I have been referencing:

So far here is my working list of components:
  • Cpu: Core i7-4770K
  • Motherboard: GA-Z87X-UD3H LGA 1150
  • Ram: CORSAIR Vengeance LP 16GB DDR3
  • PSU: SeaSonic X-650 Version 3 80Plus Gold PSU
  • GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 770 Gaming Edition 2GB
  • Storage: SanDisk Extreme II Solid State Drive 240GB

My research indicates this hardware should run ARMA 3 at a good framerate.
Any advice regarding noise or suitability on those components would be appreciated.

However I'm struggling to find the right case!
The last case I bought was an origional Antec Sonata and things have changed a lot it seems!
I see on the reference list that the Silverstone Fortress FT02 is top recommendation, however I have doubts that top exhausts would suit me. I worry that the airflow coming out of the top of the case would annoy me more than any noise or cooling benefit. I tend to be very easily annoyed by aircon flows in office scenarios so accept I must be more sensitive to this than most. Does anybody owning a 90 degree top exhaust case have any comments on just how much air you can actually feel coming out the top??

Looking at alternatives that have the option to properly block the top exhaust vents has lead me to The Nanoxia Deep Silence Range and the Fractal Design Define. Here in Melbourne Australia I can source a number of models from both series but have been leaning toward Deep Silence 1 and Define R4. Does anybody know of other cases where blocking the top exhausts with sound proof panels is included? And are there any suggestions on the S1 vs R4??

I haven't given any thought to CPU cooling yet as I suspect this will depend very much on the case chosen?

I would greatly appreciate any help in finalizing this very challenging build!
Thanks
Berno :)


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 Post subject: Re: New Build Advice - Dev/Gaming/Hackintosh
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 12:03 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
Posts: 4769
Location: Monterey Bay, CA
Welcome to SPCR.

The generic question with any gaming build is: what's your monitor(s) resolution and what are your expectations for quality levels (max eye candy<->minimal features enabled)? That's the difference between using a $700 card and no card at all. :)

Do your iOS compiler/tools make use of the i7's hyperthreading? Very few games do(Arma 3 doesn't).

The FT02 can make for a very quiet build. It's also pretty massive and you have to make sure the graphics card's heatpipes are oriented upright for good cooling. Fractal Design Define R4 is a lovely case (see my signature). Easy to work with. Case fans are quiet, but not silent @ 1m. The DS1 is also a nice case.

Yep, CPU cooler will depend on the case...mostly for tower cooler height. I'm happy with Mugen 4.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: New Build Advice - Dev/Gaming/Hackintosh
PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 3233
Location: ITALY
Berno wrote:
Any advice regarding noise or suitability on those components would be appreciated.

Cpu: Core i7-4770K: last year I swapped an i5-K with an i7-K but in real life I've noticed almost no benefit at all; moreover, if you don't overclock, currently nothing offer a better value than a Core i5 4430/4440/4670S (providing that you have not any good offer on other CPUs).

Ram: CORSAIR Vengeance LP 16GB DDR3: overrated, underperfoming, standard profile, my advice is to avoid at all.

PSU: SeaSonic X-650 Version 3 80Plus Gold PSU: noise wise today it's not the best PSU for a gaming machine with a 170W graphics, I would rather something else.

GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 770 Gaming Edition 2GB: how many FPS will you gain over its 760 mate?

_________________
Regards,
Luca


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 Post subject: Re: New Build Advice - Dev/Gaming/Hackintosh
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 2:26 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:48 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Australia
Thanks for the feedback guys!

Quote:
what's your monitor(s) resolution and what are your expectations for quality levels

I'll be running in 1680x1050. I don't need to have everything in Crysis 3 set to ultra thats for sure, I'm sure being able to run it at all will be novel enough for me ;) But just to future proof the system I thought a GTX770 would do ok?

Quote:
Do your iOS compiler/tools make use of the i7's hyperthreading?
Cpu: Core i7-4770K: last year I swapped an i5-K with an i7-K but in real life I've noticed almost no benefit at all

I'm not 100% sure about iOS however it seems developer tools in general do benefit from hyperthreading. I have seen it quoted that Visual Studio 2010 can gain 25% performance with i7 compared to same i5 clock speed. I'll also be using Unity 3d and various 3d rendering software all of which will benefit. If its worth the 100 bucks extra... hmm I get your point and I do have i5-4670K Haswell as the cpu in my budget version of the specs. In my current project I can end up debugging the server app in Visual Studio while also debugging the client in Unity or even on a Virtual machine, surely hyperthreading would help in situations like that? With 16GB of RAM I don't think that will be a limiting factor so it will fall on pure CPU power? I believe actual compile time will still be IO limited but that doesn't bother me. The ability to multitask some pretty heavy apps loaded into memory would benefit me in the long run.

Would an extra $100 on any other component make much difference?
I don't tend to upgrade very often so maybe the i7 will future proof a bit better than i5?

Quote:
Fractal Design Define R4 is a lovely case (see my signature). Easy to work with. Case fans are quiet, but not silent @ 1m.

OK I think that seals the deal on the R4, great thanks for that. Besides compared to the DS1 the doors open to the left which suits me better with my desk setup :)

Quote:
I'm happy with Mugen 4.

Well that will obviously fit the R4 so again i'll go with that if I can source it locally, thanks again ;)

Quote:
Ram: CORSAIR Vengeance LP 16GB DDR3: overrated, underperfoming, standard profile, my advice is to avoid at all.

This is the RAM recommended at http://www.tonymacx86.com/ however they never really justify why and obviously all RAM is Mac compatible. Do you have a recommendation?

Quote:
PSU: SeaSonic X-650 Version 3 80Plus Gold PSU: noise wise today it's not the best PSU for a gaming machine with a 170W graphics, I would rather something else.

I have just chosen it off the recommended list here at silent PC. Again what would you recommend?

Quote:
GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 770 Gaming Edition 2GB: how many FPS will you gain over its 760 mate?

I have relied on http://www.game-debate.com/ hardware analysis to try and balance the system. I really don't know how scientific this is however the 770 looks a better fit with the rest of the specs. Is this realistic? I have no idea :)

Attachment:
760.png

Attachment:
770.png


Any advice on the noise of MSI Twin Frozr?

Thanks for the input!
Bernie


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 Post subject: Re: New Build Advice - Dev/Gaming/Hackintosh
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:24 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
Posts: 4769
Location: Monterey Bay, CA
3D rendering, eh? If your s/w can't make use of the GPU for hardware acceleration, then by all means get an i7. If it can make use of the GPU, then it leads down another path...and maybe you don't need the i7.
- If it only uses CUDA, then go Nvidia.
- If it can use OpenCL, then go AMD as the current gen of AMD cards beats the pants off of any Nvidia card.
- downside to AMD is higher idle/low load power use if 2 or more monitors and for stuff like watching videos.

1600x1050 gaming: gfx cards get pricey fast and they are so easy to replace. I'm hesitant to recommend a $350 card when a $250 card might do. Yeah, you might get a year less out of it, but by then GPU's will have moved down a couple of lithography nodes and be sooo much faster, etc.. Go with the $350 card if it benefits your work. Regarding MSI, both the 760 and 770 are decent designs/low noise.

Oh, regarding the R4's case fans: you won't hear them over the gfx card.

Take a look at pcpartpicker for vendor/item selection.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: New Build Advice - Dev/Gaming/Hackintosh
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:42 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 3233
Location: ITALY
Berno wrote:
Quote:
Ram: CORSAIR Vengeance LP 16GB DDR3: overrated, underperfoming, standard profile, my advice is to avoid at all.

This is the RAM recommended at http://www.tonymacx86.com/ however they never really justify why and obviously all RAM is Mac compatible. Do you have a recommendation?


SPCR reviewers use Kingston LoVo: I own these DIMMs, I recommend them.
Another SPCR forumers favourite is the Crucial Ballistix Sport, either normal or VLP version: I also own those DIMMs (VLP flavour) and obviously I recommend them (you can find a recent review on these kit on TechPowerUp!).


Berno wrote:
Quote:
PSU: SeaSonic X-650 Version 3 80Plus Gold PSU: noise wise today it's not the best PSU for a gaming machine with a 170W graphics, I would rather something else.

I have just chosen it off the recommended list here at silent PC. Again what would you recommend?


That Seasonic is a great PSU (I own an X-460 and owned an X-750) but, with reference to the power draw of the proposed setup, it is a somewhat "borderline" recommendation, due to the noise profile of that Seasonic KM3 platform (check the relevant SPCR reviews). Moreover, last batch seem a tad more prone to coil whine than competitors.
IMHO you have to look, within the same power range, to something like the Corsair RM650/RM750, the BeQuiet Dark Power Pro 10, the Enermax Platimax, or even the fanless SuperFlower Golden King platform (Rosewill, Kingwin, SuperFlower itself); otherwise you may look to the SuperFlower Leadex platform (even something like an EVGA 1000 G2 or P2), a clear overkill but electrically better than any of the above mentioned competitors.


Berno wrote:
Quote:
GPU: MSI GeForce GTX 770 Gaming Edition 2GB: how many FPS will you gain over its 760 mate?

I have relied on http://www.game-debate.com/ hardware analysis to try and balance the system. I really don't know how scientific this is however the 770 looks a better fit with the rest of the specs. Is this realistic? I have no idea :)


It's about the same issue of the proposed i7: the more the power draw, the more the heat (from the PSU and from the chips themselves), so the higher the temperatures, the more the heat build up inside the case, and in case - pun intended - the more the overall noise.
At any rate, with a resolution up to 1680 x 1050 IMVHO you may not need a 770 at all, and IMHO you'd better to spare heat, power draw and money (obviously the choice is up to you).


Berno wrote:
Any advice on the noise of MSI Twin Frozr?


Noise-wise I think it's the best (or so about) stock heatsink actually available on a GTX 760, while it's a noticeable bit noisier on the GTX 770: however, it's not silent, and IMVHO/IME it's also not enough quiet whether you are too close to your rig (just for example, the ASUS DC-II on the previous GTX 660 is IMVHO/IME a tad quieter at idle, but I do not know whether it is when mounted on the current ASUS Keplers).

_________________
Regards,
Luca


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 Post subject: Re: New Build Advice - Dev/Gaming/Hackintosh
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 4:08 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2014 10:48 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Australia
Yes I would say "lightweight" 3d work. I use all sorts of software Blender, 3ds max, sketchup depends what source my model is. Having absolutely no 3d talent means I'm purchasing or finding free models for my needs however the workflow is always to export to unity and none of the scenes are really animated so you may have a point that CUDA support is good enough. I cant go with AMD due to mac compatibility issues.

Quote:
It's about the same issue of the proposed i7: the more the power draw, the more the heat (from the PSU and from the chips themselves), so the higher the temperatures, the more the heat build up inside the case, and in case - pun intended - the more the overall noise.

Hmmm this has opened my eyes up to something I didn't know.
Obviously because its been so long since I've upgraded I don't mind spending $100 here and there on a more powerful CPU or GPU. However if the knock on effect is increased power, heat and then noise... well I think I'm less willing to spend thermal currency. Especially considering the heatwave laden summer Melbourne is currently having. The house has AC but when you have 4 days in a row over 40 deg c it gets hot no matter what yo do! Silent PC operation becomes less of a worry with fans pointed at you but the PC becomes an extra source of heat and they really do start to struggle on those hot days.

Quote:
SPCR reviewers uses Kingston LoVo, I own it, I recommend it.
Another SPCR forumers favourite is the Crucial Ballistix Sport

Unfortunately I cannot source any of these locally. I noticed CA_Steve has G.Skill Ares ram. I can source the 1600 version for my motherboard locally?
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=19766
What do you think better than the corsair?

Quote:
That Seasonic is a great PSU (I own an X-460 and owned an X-750) but, with reference to the power draw of the proposed setup, it is a somewhat "borderline" recommendation, due to the noise profile of that Seasonic KM3 platform (check the relevant SPCR reviews). Moreover, last batch seem a tad more prone to coil whine than competitors.
IMHO you have to look, within the same power range, to something like the Corsair RM650/RM750, the BeQuiet Dark Power Pro 10, the Enermax Platimax, or even the fanless SuperFlower Golden King platform (Rosewill, Kingwin, SuperFlower itself); otherwise you may look to the SuperFlower Leadex platform (even something like an EVGA 1000 G2 or P2), a clear overkill but electrically better than any of the above mentioned competitors.

I had a video card that had coil whine that drove me insane so would definitely like to avoid it at all costs!
With "borderline" are you saying you think 650W is a bit low for the system? I've had someone on a local forum trying to convince me to go down to 520W!
Unfortunately all I can source locally from your suggestions in the Corsair RM series.
They seem a bit low on reviews on SPCR but seems what has been said is good. OK lets make it a RM650, from what I've read RM750 can have problems?

So here is my revised shopping cart thanks to your input:
    Your shopping cart
    Intel Core i5 4670K $275.00
    Gigabyte GA-Z87X-UD3H Motherboard $229.00
    Fractal Design Define R4 Titanium Grey $149.00
    Corsair RM-650 80 Plus Gold Power Supply $159.00
    MSI GeForce GTX 760 Gaming Edition OC 2GB $329.00
    SanDisk Extreme II Solid State Drive 240GB $249.00
    G.Skill Ares F3-1600C10D-16GAO 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3 $205.00
    Sub-Total: $1595.00

What do you think? How about putting the money saved into a bigger SSD? Any issues with doing that?
SanDisk Extreme II Solid State Drive 480GB $469.00

I have to look up a CPU cooler too I cant source the Mugen locally :(

Thanks again you guys have helped me a lot!
Bernie


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 Post subject: Re: New Build Advice - Dev/Gaming/Hackintosh
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 6:04 pm 
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Location: Monterey Bay, CA
PSU: I've had several Seasonic PSu and none whined. It's definately a YMMV issue depending on the build and mfg variances. Take a look at my signature for typical power use. I have a 560W supply and it hardly ever spins up.

SSD: If you need data storage, just get a WD Red 2TB HDD for < $100. Set up the power profile to spin down the drive unless it's needed. No reason to blow hundreds on more SSD space. Plus, you can use the Red as a backup (besides whatever external device you use).

AMD GPU and Apple: I wonder how the Mac Pro changes this?

Don't forget a CPU cooler. The Intel cooler is abysmal.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: New Build Advice - Dev/Gaming/Hackintosh
PostPosted: Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
Posts: 2059
Location: Guatemala
If you dont have access to a Mugen4, then consider Thermalright HR02 Macho or Noctua NH-U14S, both reviewed by SPCR and got the editors choice, really good coolers.

Personally not a big fan of Gigabyte on motherboards, but i see all hackintosh builds prefering gigabyte, so i guess goes with what you are planning, but i would go MSI, Asrock or Asus before Gigabyte, thats if you can make them work with hackintosh.

The SSD, i would go with Samsung 840 EVO, really a good ssd for the money, and i second steve suggestion, just buy whatever you need for pure OS/Programs and if you like games, the pure storage a WD Red / Green should do the trick. Unless Sandisk is better for hackintosh build, this i know very little.

The rest of components seem solid.

_________________
GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms | Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: New Build Advice - Dev/Gaming/Hackintosh
PostPosted: Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
Posts: 3233
Location: ITALY
Berno wrote:
Unfortunately I cannot source any of these locally. I noticed CA_Steve has G.Skill Ares ram. I can source the 1600 version for my motherboard locally?
http://www.pccasegear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=19766
What do you think better than the corsair?


No, IMHO they are about equivalent: pick the cheaper one, if it doesn't matter for an Hackintosh (and you'd better checking the Gigabyte memory QVL).


Berno wrote:
I had a video card that had coil whine that drove me insane so would definitely like to avoid it at all costs!
With "borderline" are you saying you think 650W is a bit low for the system? I've had someone on a local forum trying to convince me to go down to 520W!


At first glance you don't need more than about 350W DC, but I was referring to the Seasonic KM3 fan profile. The fan behaviour is either load and temperature based: in an setup with a Core i7 and a GTX 770, heat and power draw may start the X-650 fan more often and faster than how much is desiderable for a quiet rig.
On the contrary, dealing with a Core i5 and a GTX 760 (so about 60W of less heat at load), the X-650 fan controller is a tad more comfortable.

About coil whine, as also said by Steve, I never had an issue with my two X-series units. OTOH there are a number of reports about whining on recent Seasonic X which cannot be simply ignored: so now, dealing with those PSUs, I always advice for taking into account a first class customer service which will swap any part just on request, as (just for example) Amazon does.


Berno wrote:
Unfortunately all I can source locally from your suggestions in the Corsair RM series.


Just about Amazon: an aussie pal pointed me out that it can sometimes be cost effective to buy in the UK through Amazon.co.uk (despite the added shipping costs), maybe you can check whether it's true by yourself.

About the Corsair RM750, I can't help: to be honest it should be a better built unit than a RM650.


Berno wrote:
Intel Core i5 4670K $275.00


Do you plan overclocking? Whether you won't OC, spare fifty bucks.


Berno wrote:
What do you think? How about putting the money saved into a bigger SSD? Any issues with doing that?
SanDisk Extreme II Solid State Drive 480GB $469.00


That SSD is a very good one (it's far better than a Samsung 840 EVO, and IMHO it's also better than a Samsung 840 Pro), so it won't need to run half empty (and therefore a 240Gb one will usually suffice): if you need that extra space, IMHO it's a very good choice (but otherwise I don't agree with spending just because you can afford it).


Berno wrote:
I have to look up a CPU cooler too I cant source the Mugen locally :(


Noctua and Phanteks seem the most straightforward options, on PC Case Gear website.
A tempting option might be that lone Scythe Orochi, but you may need a better fan, and probably you do need the Mugen 2 1155 mounting kit (in Europe you can ask directly to Scythe EU for about 5 bucks plus shipping, I don't know how to do the same in Australia).

_________________
Regards,
Luca


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 Post subject: Re: New Build Advice - Dev/Gaming/Hackintosh
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:06 pm 
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Posts: 4
Location: Australia
Thanks for the help guys.

I can source the Noctua NH-U14S locally so have put that down as the cooler!

Quote:
AMD GPU and Apple: I wonder how the Mac Pro changes this?

I think Apple have used AMD/ATI sporadically in the past so driver support is sporadic and while it is possible to get a Hackintosh going with AMD its considered so troublesome as not to be worth it. I didn't know about the Mac Pro thats one funky looking computer! Its a pity Macs cost as much as a second hand car or I might be interested in them ;)

In terms of storage I have a 1TB WD Black and 2TB WD Green that I will transfer across from the current machine so I guess I will start with a 240G SSD. If its not enough I can always put in another later on!

PSU: Im sure the Seasonic is a great PSU to get awarded on this site. However going with the corsair opens me up to a lot more suppliers locally, the one supplier of Seasonic isn't offering system assembly any more so it might depend on if I want to build the whole system myself or not. Also does anybody know if capacitor squeal is a problem you can return to manufacturer for?

Thanks
Berno


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