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 Post subject: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:28 am 
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Hi everyone,

It's time to replace the aging PC I've used for the past 7 years in my home studio. As I have to record in the same room as the PC a super quiet build is the goal.
I've been reading, reading and reading and so far I've settled on the following components:

Case: Fractal Design Define R4
PSU: Seasonic ss-660XP
CPU: Intel 4790k
Cooler: Noctua NH-U12s
MOBO: Gigabyte Z97X-UD5H
RAM: Corsair 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3 CML16GX3M2A1600C9
OS HDD: Samsung 250GB SSD 840 EVO
Recording HDD: 1TB Seagate Barracuda SATA3
Samples/Backup HDD: 1TB Seagate Barracuda SATA3
DVD: Samsung SATA Black Internal DVD RW Drive
Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit
2x Antec TrueQuiet 140mm case fans (replacing front and rear case fans)

I originally had picked out the UD3H variant of the Gigabyte range but on closer inspection it looks like that board is a bit shorter in width than the UD5H and some of the screw holes don't appear to line up with the case.

The only part I'm really questioning is the CPU Cooler and whether to get the NH-u12s or NH-u14s. Of the various reviews I've read the u12s seems to have the edge for silence and the u14s for cooling.

Any comments/advice would be greatly appreciated.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:36 am 
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Welcome to SPCR.

james_sbs wrote:
I've been reading, reading and reading

There's been a few DAW threads this year :)

Case: Fractal Design Define R4 - check

PSU: Seasonic ss-660XP - Your stressed system load is ~ 130W, probably 100W or less while recording. How about the passive SS-400FL2 Seasonic instead? Or, if you want hybrid fan, the Corsair RM450 or Kingwin LZP550.

CPU: Intel 4790k - i7 is useful if you are dealing with orchestral numbers of VSTs and/or tracks. If not, you could go with an i5.

Cooler: Noctua NH-U12s - should be fine. Alternatives are the Scythe Mugen 4 and Scythe Kotetsu.

Quote:
I originally had picked out the UD3H variant of the Gigabyte range but on closer inspection it looks like that board is a bit shorter in width than the UD5H and some of the screw holes don't appear to line up with the case.

ATX is ATX. The holes will line up with the case.

MOBO: Gigabyte Z97X-UD5H - decent board, as is the UD3H. Asus has an edge on fan control.

RAM: Corsair 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3 CML16GX3M2A1600C9 - check

OS HDD: Samsung 250GB SSD 840 EVO - I'm happy with this SSD. There's also the Crucial MX100 - a little slower, a little cheaper, and has data retention protection if you lose power while writing to the SSD. (Luca won me over).

Recording HDD: 1TB Seagate Barracuda SATA3
Samples/Backup HDD: 1TB Seagate Barracuda SATA3
- rather than having a couple of spinning drives while recording...why not get a bigger SSD and use it for OS/recording/samples and a HDD for data storage/backup? A 500GB MX100 is ~$210. Or, split it into OS SSD, recording/samples SSD and data HDD.

DVD: Samsung SATA Black Internal DVD RW Drive
Windows 7 Pro 64-Bit
- check

2x Antec TrueQuiet 140mm case fans (replacing front and rear case fans) - I went with 2 front and 1 rear.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:39 am 
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The U14S is a great cooler, the fan itself should drop extremely low, i own NF-A15 PWM (but the retail version is 1200rpm vs 1500rpms of the included heatsink version), and in my experience you can drop it below 200rpms on fanxpert2, where no human ear can hear it, but doesn't move much air either. I have no experience with the NF-F12, so i cant say much, but if its like all noctuas i have tested, should have a pretty good PWM range of control where you can drive it to inaudible levels.

Personally i would invest on the U14S mostly because the 4790K is a hot running cpu, mostly on load (idle runs very cool with little cooling), so i would prefer to go with higher surface area to deal better with the high load temps you might encounter (depending on the load you put into it). Now the question will go more into how good will gigabyte control the fan, im really not a big fan of gigabyte nor have i tested their latest motherboards, i prefer Asus, MSI or AsRock.

Another to consider are Scythe Mugen 4 or Scythe Kotetsu, they do offer better bang for the money than noctuas, their fans wont drop as low as noctuas on PWM, but they drop enough for most quiet builders, and the impact on rpms on a heatsink drops much higher the temps on cpu than case fans, so overall i prefer to run my CPU higher than my case fans, but all setups are different, where it really depends in your needs and what you will be doing.

The X660XP is an overkill for your build, no dedicated GPU you wont ever pass 300W, i just did a 4770K build for my cameras and it barely reaches 150W on prime95, maybe a more standard PSU could go close to 200W, but aside from that i dont think you will go higher ever. You could drop into something like Corsair RM450, Seasonic X400 or Kingwin Striker 500W to mentions a few options. Even a G360 could work fine, but none modular and the fan spins always.

On the hdds and case, i don't own any of the latest barracudas 1tb, so idk how they are noisewise, but a case that offers some options is the Antec Solo II with its rubber suspension for two 3.5hdd, i personally prefer the R4 though for its cable management but i also dont use 7200rpm 3.5 hdds. This imo could be your noisiest part of the setup, as all other components seem very well chosen and should be very quiet.

Quote:
ATX is ATX. The holes will line up with the case.
I think he is referring that motherboard is the shorter wide version that a lot of manufacturers are releasing this days, on standard ATX you do screw 9 (3top, 3mid, 3 bottom) but this boards are shorter thus misses 3 screw holes (one of each). I know Asus has some, all the PLUS ATX versions are like this, AsRock i believe also has a couple, MSI im not sure nor Gigabyte.

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:44 am 
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Also, don't think you need a "K" CPU as you won't need to overclock your DAW :)

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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:52 am 
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james_sbs wrote:
Case: Fractal Design Define R4

A highly valuable all arounder for any silencer, but for such a setup (hot CPU and no GPU) a wide open case could be a worthy option (like a Corsair Obsidian 450D or a Phanteks Enthoo Pro).


james_sbs wrote:
PSU: Seasonic ss-660XP

As already said by others regulars, a useless waste of money and watt. Go for any really quiet 300-500W unit.


james_sbs wrote:
CPU: Intel 4790k

+1 @ CA_Steve


james_sbs wrote:
MOBO: Gigabyte Z97X-UD5H

Check on the relevant manual/available reviews the case fan speed range, to be sure of a quiet operation.


james_sbs wrote:
RAM: Corsair 16GB (2x8GB) DDR3 CML16GX3M2A1600C9

Nothing to write home about, but they're not low profile.


james_sbs wrote:
Recording HDD: 1TB Seagate Barracuda SATA3
Samples/Backup HDD: 1TB Seagate Barracuda SATA3

The Seagate SV35.6 sibling have a slight edge on quietness, and should be a bit more reliable.
But given the fact you're relying upon "low" capacity drives, whether you may afford that, consider to invest about a "grand" on a couple of 1TB SSDs (like the last M500 around).


james_sbs wrote:
2x Antec TrueQuiet 140mm case fans (replacing front and rear case fans)

I would buy some replacement fans after the building, as it may be likely, but it's not given that you need to swap the stock FD fans, and you may well end up with just one fan (given that you don't have a hot discrete graphics, you might have enough cooling, less money, and less noise).


james_sbs wrote:
The only part I'm really questioning is the CPU Cooler and whether to get the NH-u12s or NH-u14s. Of the various reviews I've read the u12s seems to have the edge for silence and the u14s for cooling.

AFAIK usually there's a misunderstanding about silence/cooling on non-SPCR reviews/forums: if I'm not wrong, the NH-U12S is usually considered quieter just because at full speed a 120mm is naturally less noisy than a "similar" 140mm fan (and far less effective). But obviously you don't need to run the NH-U14S at full bore unless necessary, and whether it will turn out necessary, then you'll know the smaller NH-U12S wouldn't have been up to the task.
Moreover, whether you're leaning towards the NH-U14S, consider the NH-C14 as a worthy investment.

Broadly speaking, Noctua coolers are wonderful objects, with high quality bundles, but usually with a rather mediocre performance/price ratio: as Abula said, you can obtain similar performance and quietness with much less money.

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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 8:07 pm 
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Thanks for all the advice so far.

PSU: My reason for going a bit over the top on the power supply was in part due to the Seasonic’s fanless and “silent” modes at 30% and 50% load. Knowing I wouldn't be pushing the psu very hard I thought it would spend most of it’s time in these zones. Would the seasonic x-460 or ss-400 be better? (These are both about the same price). Would fanless be ok at the bottom of the r4 case?

The only future upgrade I may make is to add a Universal Audio UAD PCIe DSP Card but I don’t imagine this should change the power draw too much.

CPU: I hadn't decided about overclocking yet but the more I think about it the more I probably won't. Given the system I'm coming from I'm sure the 4790 will be more than an excellent step up. Plus I can use the extra $$ for the alternative hard drive setup below.

CPU Cooler: Unfortunately here in Australia both Scythe and Thermalright are not readily available. I honestly hadn’t considered the nh-c14 due to it’s top/bottom fan configuration. I always thought the sideways configuration of the nh-u12/4s would push hot air out the rear fan better than fans pointing the other way. The NH-C14 certainly seems to have the edge in both noise and cooling… I’m pretty sold on it now, is there any reason to go for the nh-u14s instead?

MOBO: A number of the expert DAW builders on the Gearslutz.com forums find that the Gigabyte boards have fewer problems with latency which is important for audio work. Does anyone know if the Gigabyte fan controls will be a huge problem?

Hard Drives = I prefer the idea of having my OS/recordings/samples split onto different drives. I could possibly stretch the budget to a 120G SSD for the OS, a 256Gb SSD for the Recordings and a 2TB HDD for samples and any recording projects no longer in use could be archived here.

Case: Also pretty comfortable with the Fractal Designs R4. I would take out the middle HD cage to improve the airflow and look at rigging up some suspension mounts similar to the SOLO II for the HDD.


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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 6:28 am 
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james_sbs wrote:
PSU: My reason for going a bit over the top on the power supply was in part due to the Seasonic’s fanless and “silent” modes at 30% and 50% load. Knowing I wouldn't be pushing the psu very hard I thought it would spend most of it’s time in these zones. Would the seasonic x-460 or ss-400 be better? (These are both about the same price). Would fanless be ok at the bottom of the r4 case?

They'll all be fanless at your power loads and they'll all have roughly the same efficiency. So, better really only relates to cost. Bottom mount in R4 is fine.

james_sbs wrote:
MOBO: A number of the expert DAW builders on the Gearslutz.com forums find that the Gigabyte boards have fewer problems with latency which is important for audio work. Does anyone know if the Gigabyte fan controls will be a huge problem?

Intel tripped up with the '87 series and all those boards had crappy DPC latency. They fixed it with the '97 series. So, make sure the Asus vs Gigabyte DPS latency concerns at Gearslutz are specific to the H97/Z97 boards. I can't speak to the specifics on which is better for latency. In general, the less s/w utilities and crap loaded in Windows, the better..and if you can just use the UEFI based fan tools, then all the better. In this regard, Asus, MSI, and Asrock all outperform Gigabyte. If Abula chimes in, he can wax poetic about it. :D

james_sbs wrote:
Hard Drives = I prefer the idea of having my OS/recordings/samples split onto different drives. I could possibly stretch the budget to a 120G SSD for the OS, a 256Gb SSD for the Recordings and a 2TB HDD for samples and any recording projects no longer in use could be archived here.

Depending on the SSD, you can take a big hit on write speeds when you drop to 120GB (less write channels). That said, it'll still beat the pants off of the fastest rotating drive except for sequential writes..and that's what the recording drive is for.

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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 1:59 pm 
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james_sbs wrote:
I’m pretty sold on it now, is there any reason to go for the nh-u14s instead?

In case, the different fan control, PWM (4 pin) on the NH-U14S, voltage based (3 pin) on the NH-C14: whether your mobo of choice won't be able to drive both types, the NH-U14S might be a somehow either quieter or cooler alternative (but you will loose the cooling effect on the whole mobo).


james_sbs wrote:
Does anyone know if the Gigabyte fan controls will be a huge problem?

Give a read to the latest SPCR review on Gigabyte.


james_sbs wrote:
I prefer the idea of having my OS/recordings/samples split onto different drives. I could possibly stretch the budget to a 120G SSD for the OS, a 256Gb SSD for the Recordings and a 2TB HDD for samples and any recording projects no longer in use could be archived here.

Personally I won't consider any SSD under 240Gb, as their performances usually degrade as soon as you fill the drive.


james_sbs wrote:
look at rigging up some suspension mounts similar to the SOLO II for the HDD.

With reference to that, you may check what the NoiseMagic NoVibes III may offer to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Mon Aug 04, 2014 3:20 pm 
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Quote:
Give a read to the latest SPCR review on Gigabyte.

Not a great data point as Gigabyte has improved upon their fan controls with the '97 series. The UEFI side still sucks, the s/w side is closer to Asus' Fan Xpert.

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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:34 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
In this regard, Asus, MSI, and Asrock all outperform Gigabyte. If Abula chimes in, he can wax poetic about it. :D
Sorry been on the road for the since last sunday on roads that not even celphone signal nor internet, this is the first time on 5 days that im sitting on my laptop.

Honestly idk how Gigabyte is in their latest iterations, from my past expereince (mostly 1155 and 1366), their bios was not that great on bios fan control, they seem to be doing some work on their software to be similar to fanXpert, but again haven't really tried to know how it compares. But i do have experience with Asus and MSI, both imo are very good, its more about how you want to do it, asrock also seems solid into PWM (but i dont have direct experience on them).

1) Asus
Their FanXpert2 (now 3 which i haven't tested), is superb to manage fans, it can bypass bios restrictions once windows loads, its very good into determining the range of operation of a fan using their tuning, that its simply a stress of fans, where it ramps them up to establish the max, then drops them down to establish the min, then starts them slowly to establish the starting rpms, etc, then you end up with a graph that the software suggests, this can be changed by the user to their own preference. Overall its pretty good, hey even SPCR uses it to test fans, i even kept my asus motherboard for this purpose alone, the downside imo is the software is a little heavy (not much), and i didn't like the way Asus measure CPU temperature, which doesn't match core temps or packet temp, its more their own algorithm of using multiple sensors to predict a more accurate temp.... so they say.

2) MSI
My brand of choice atm, their PWM 4pin control is superb, allowing dropping fans to 12.5% (if the fan can reach there, not all can), and you can set them in increments of 12.5%. You can set also the maximum, lets say you have one of those noctua 3k rpms, you can set easily to lower the max to 50% and the fan will be crippled from the bios to never pass this mark. You can also set min and max temperature of the cpu, this defines how fast or slow will the fan ramp up entering the interval of temperatures you preset. Some of the mid to high end boards have 2 PWM fan headers (CPU_FAN1,2,) this allows me to have one for my case fans and another for my cpu that i control independently, i do use PWM fan splitter to be able to control multiple fans on each headers (my cpu has 3 fans and my case has 4 fans). Now thats only for 4pin PWM fans, on 3pin fan if you use them on CPU_FAN headers they will always run at 12V no way of controlling on bios, but on SYS_FAN headers, you get similar control to the above, only these are voltage controlled, just with higher restrictions, now the minimum is 50% with 10% increments, they are also binded to the CPU temp. Other manufactures have very limited bios control, even some only allow presets, no manual setting for you to enter.

With either choice the most important decision is to chose properly the type of fans you will run on each header, once you understand this, both work pretty well, its more a personal preference into what you like. Now if you like gigabyte go for it, Antec True Quiet 140s are pretty quiet fans, they like undervolting and you still have the fan controller on the case, so i don't think it will matter much.

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:42 am 
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In my experience, Gigabyte and MSI are both great. Asrock is a brand I tend to avoid.

Either way, what it really boils down to is what interface will be used.

My Dual Xeon rig works beautifully with a FW interface, but I had an identical machine built, and with PCI-e interfaces, there are a unique set of problems.

I would also look at adding a blu-ray drive instead of a regular DVD drive in this case. Why? Because if you want to back up a large session, you're not going to want to split it up across a bunch of DVDs. One Blu-ray, and you can have a couple sessions backed up, even if it's just a temporary thing. What's that saying about backups? Always have a backup of your backup?

Lots of other things have already been said. No need for 660W (my dual xeon rig only pulls around 400W at load), no need for a K CPU. I don't like Antec fans. They aren't very quiet, and don't seem to last in some cases. I'd look at Scythe, Noctua or Yate Loon instead. They're favorites here for their durability and quality.

Regardless, I see talk of Fan Xpert and the like. On any DAW, you're going to want to avoid this software like the plague. Don't even install it. You will have problems with your recordings. Get good PWM fans, and let the motherboard handle it. My Asus Z9PA-D8 does just fine, and you can't hear it right under my desk about 3 feet away, with 3 spinning drives in it.

Lastly, I don't think an SSD will provide much benefit. Audio is not like video in terms of file sizes, so you aren't going to see much wild differences until you're rendering out long files. You'll see benefits when you go past 30 minutes, and it will be progressively better from there. If you're recording shorter songs, I can't say it'll make much of a difference one way or another. 240GB and up is fine, but a 128 isn't going to be a problem, you're only using it for the OS and apps, and honestly, if you're filling a 128, it may be time to re-evaluate what software you have installed. Regardless of that, if you aren't sure about it, hard drives are cheap, you can get a 250gb Raptor for the time being, and suspend it. If it's not enough, you can move to an SSD, many come with cloning software if you buy the right packaging. I did this, and don't regret it. I bought a 240GB Intel 530 series on sale over a year after building my machine. It was already fast, and I finally had an excuse to make it faster. There's no "wrong" way of doing it when you can just clone your drive to another.

You're going to want to experiment with which PCI-e slot you eventually put the UAD card in. Certain motherboards are marked for which slots have the most bandwidth, and that's where you want the card to go. Also, like on my motherboard, certain slots will lower their bandwidth if others are occupied. You need to keep this in mind and make sure you prioritize how your build goes together. Sometimes it ends up being ugly, but it might make it a lot faster. Knowing that, keep the automatic fan controlling software off, and gigabyte will be great. Install their software, and you'll start having problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:05 am 
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I agree with bonetonne, i personally prefer no software, if the bios is good, as MSI is atm with their current boards, i dont have a reason to load extra things on my PC. Now some people do prefer to have live control, i have to enter the bios and modify my settings, so it has its drawbacks, but software sometimes is filled with things that you don't need or use, also since its proprietary software the development is totally up to them, and while they release and fix things about it, sometimes they do release stuff that has issues. That said, there are tons of people here that has ran and its running speedfan with great success, and other fanXpert and so on, i don't think all its bad, and can work out pretty good, specially for people that want to use the included fans of their cases, etc, personally i think both are viable and work fine, its a matter of preference into your own needs, and in my case i prefer bios fan control, im doing it with two msi motherboards and one supermicro with pure pwm fans and headers, but im not closed into the future using software.

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GameMi >> MSI Z87-GD65 | Intel Core i7-4790K | Thermalright Silver Arrow IBE + 3x Noctua NF-A15 PWM @500rpms| Crucial Ballistix Sport 32GB DDR3 1600 | nVidia GTX780 + ARCTIC Accelero Xtreme IV | Samsung SA850 27'' 2560x1440 | Samsung 840pro 512GB | Hitachi 7K1000 1TB | Fractal Design Define R4 + 4x Noctua NF-A14 PWM @450rpm | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | MiniMi | HTPCMi


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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:04 am 
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bonestonne wrote:
Asrock is a brand I tend to avoid.

Isn't that preference a bit outdated, bonestonne?

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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:19 pm 
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I don't think avoiding Asrock is a dated opinion. I've looked around quite a bit for motherboards that have all of the features I'm looking for specifically in builds, and Asrock never seems to managed to hit all the points I'm looking for. Gigabyte and MSI tend to match most of my needs. I've found myself to use Asus more and more recently though, and don't mind doing so.

I've never thought of it as an inferior brand, the motherboards tend to have basic features, and are priced at very entry level. That's fine, because there are plenty of people that use it with no problem. When I look to build a machine, I look for a specific feature set, and I go for whichever brand offers it.

Right now, I'm planning a HTPC that uses the ITX form factor. Out all all the motherboards I've looked at, only Gigabyte offers a motherboard with all of the features I'm looking for. I want Mini PCIe for a wireless card, USB3 front panel header, minimum of four SATA ports, and at least 6 rear USB ports. Because I've only found one motherboard that has all of those features, that's what I'm going to go with. I don't want to have to use a USB wifi adapter, nor a USB Bluetooth adapter. Those rear USB ports need to accommodate Xbox controller receivers. The Mini PCIe slot is for a wifi/bluetooth combo card. The front panel USB3 is so I can utilize the front panel of the case for what it was made for. The case has room for 2 hard drives and 1 ODD, so I need 4 minimum SATA ports, because most don't have 3. Too many ITX boards only have 2, which isn't enough for what I'm planning. The case has a built in power supply, and space for a slim ODD. It's a very compact but good looking setup for me. If there was no need for the Xbox controllers, then the only wires would be HDMI and power, as the mouse/keyboard would be bluetooth.

It keeps things super compact, and very easy to set up. Any of my customers would be able to turn it on, plug in two wires, and start using the machine. Because I build machines for a day job, thinking further into how a non computer person will use it matters most. Many people will pay a little more for the convenience of less wires and a neater package overall.

So back to the point being, is Asrock a bad brand? No, I never called it a bad brand. I avoid it because it doesn't suit my needs. For a DAW machine, I've never felt that Asrock has been able to support certain upgrades that would inevitably happen. If the OP was looking into just using external interfaces, it wouldn't quite matter, but throwing a UAD card into the mix, I would want a more robust motherboard, even if it's just for the peace of mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Audio DAW PC Build
PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:40 pm 
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I vote for skipping variable fan control for any recording PC. find a minimum fixed speed that that keeps your system from throttling and leave it.

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