To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

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L. Beau Grees
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To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:37 pm

Hi. Prepping for a new build. For the past 15 years, my builds have used uATX boards, in full-tower and then mini-tower cases. And thanks to SPCR, they have been getting better and quieter (and smaller) along the way :D ! The most recent one uses a Fractal Design Define Mini; the one prior uses an Antec Mini P180. Both great cases, but still large.

Having recently built an HTPC using a NUC, I kind of got the urge for smaller systems :wink: . So, for this new build, I thought of moving to mini-ITX. The first idea was for a very small desktop-style case. But after due consideration, it seems that given all of my required back panel cabling (power, monitor, network, speakers, many USB connections, etc.), the under-desk tower still seemed the best route. But a mini-ITX slim tower can be so much smaller than even a small uATX tower.

The first real challenge, though, is finding a good mini-ITX mainboard! So far, I've spent a lot of time reading the reviews on Newegg. Yes, there are always some negative reviews; but it seems that the mini-ITX boards gather far more negative reviews than the uATX boards, and they seem to consistently describe the same problems for the same manufacturer. All of which has given me pause for thought about moving to mini-ITX. And so, I would value some feedback from the members here.

First, what I am looking for: I've pretty much decided on a Core i7-6700 Skylake processor; no over-clocking desired. And using the integrated graphics with HDMI (business uses, not gaming), so no discreet GPU. DDR4, 8GB seems sufficient (does any one recommend more?). M.2, though I really am not familiar with it, or how much benefit will be derived from it. The plan is for this build to use only a 500GB SSD (would like a 1TB, but $'s say otherwise), and no HDD (quiet good; noise bad). Plenty of USB ports. Reliability and quiet take precedence over speed and capacity.

Most recently, I have been having very good results with Gigabyte boards, but will certainly consider others (MSI, ASRock, ...). But, I need to do more research on the various chipsets. Would anyone offer a brief overview of the differences between the Z170, H170, B150, and H110? And of course, any other recommendations?

That seems like a good starting point. Thanks for any feedback.

Fire-Flare
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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by Fire-Flare » Thu Sep 15, 2016 9:19 am

Intel's chipset comparison page is down at the moment, but here's Wikipedia's version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_I ... s#LGA_1151

Back when I was doing ITX, I had good luck with Asus boards in my systems, and I respect Gigabyte as well.

I still haven't used an M.2 drive, but I do have four SATAIII SSDs configured in RAID0 (almost as fast) and I do notice a difference compared to a single SSD.

8GB of RAM should be sufficient, depending on exactly what you mean by 'business'; Internet and an office suite shouldn't exceed that limit, but CAD programs probably will.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Sep 15, 2016 12:08 pm

Do you have business (or other apps) that will make use of the i7's hyperthreading? If not, there's money on the table.

How many USB ports do you need? Type 2 or 3?

L. Beau Grees
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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:25 pm

Fire-Flare, thanks for your reply; very helpful. I thought that chart was going to quickly answer all the chipset questions, but it says that the x110 and x150 chipsets do not support PCIe M.2. Yet, on Newegg, both Gigabyte and MSI show x150 and x110 boards, for which the specifications say "M.2 connector (SATA and PCIe x4/x2/x1 SSD support)" [Gigabyte, on the GIGABYTE GA-H110N (rev. 1.0) LGA 1151 Intel H110 board], and "M.2 slot - supports PCIe 2.0 x4 standard" [MSI, on the MSI H110I Pro LGA 1151 Intel H110 board].

Well, that's confusing... heading over to the manufacturers' sites now, to say what it says.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:35 pm

CA_Steve wrote:Do you have business (or other apps) that will make use of the i7's hyperthreading? If not, there's money on the table.
Really, I'm not sure that I do :roll: ! But, future-proofing, as there may very well be some up ahead :D .
How many USB ports do you need? Type 2 or 3?
Presently, 10. But some are on the front ports (keyboard/mouse wireless receiver...), and a small hub on the back is entirely satisfactory, so even six on the back panel is fine, as long as there are at least two on the front--the present case has three on the front, which I find very helpful. So far, all USB2 (except thumb drives), but any future peripherals will undoubtedly be USB3.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Thu Sep 15, 2016 2:03 pm

GA-H110N (rev. 1.0) definitely says "PCIe Gen2 x4 M.2 Connector with up to 20Gb/s Data Transfer (PCIe NVMe & SATA SSD support)." Am I reading the chart on wikipedia wrong?

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by CA_Steve » Thu Sep 15, 2016 7:50 pm

https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/artic ... rence-635/

Also, Gigabyte has the worst fan control of the big 4.

10 USB ports needed? Yow!

L. Beau Grees
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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Fri Sep 16, 2016 1:27 pm

Thanks, Steve; very helpful.
A very good article, and it confirms the table in the earlier link.
Also, Gigabyte has the worst fan control of the big 4.
Forgive me if I'm a bit behind of the current curve; the big four would be: Gigabyte, MSI, Asus, and... ASRock?
10 USB ports needed? Yow!
Three printers (in addition to two networked printers), USB to Serial, connection for programming my A/V remote control, and ... you know how it goes :lol: !

L. Beau Grees
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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:08 pm

So I've just read SPCR's review of the Gigabyte Z170N-Gaming 5 & Z170N-WIFI mITX boards, two boards which are^H^H^Hwere on my list. Many of the Newegg reviewers mentioned the problem of throttling, not just on the Z170N-WIFI but on several other Gigabyte boards as well, many thinking that it is related to lack of heatsink on the VRMs.

The SPCR review gives specifics of this, and also concludes that it may be due to lack of VRM heatsink. The review also brings to light the high heat and power draw of the Z170N-Gaming 5, concluding with, "The VRM heatsink is surprisingly small, and this coupled with the board's relatively simplistic 5-phase power regulation design are likely to blame."

So, in comparing potential boards, it is easy to determine whether there is a VRM heatsink. But my question is, since it doesn't seem to mentioned in the specs, how can one determine the style/effectiveness of the power regulation on a given board?

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by CA_Steve » Fri Sep 16, 2016 6:49 pm

Mostly by reading reviews :)

LongJan
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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by LongJan » Sat Sep 17, 2016 6:05 am

I never had any problems with Asus motherboards. To day I would go for Z170I Pro Gaming. It has what I want: good fan control, WiFi, M.2 (Sata/PCIE), 8 + front USB. And it seems to have decent VRM cooling. However I neither overclock or run torture tests so I don't bother reading reviews :)

L. Beau Grees
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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Sat Sep 17, 2016 3:46 pm

LongJan wrote:I never had any problems with Asus motherboards. To day I would go for Z170I Pro Gaming. It has what I want: good fan control, WiFi, M.2 (Sata/PCIE), 8 + front USB. And it seems to have decent VRM cooling. However I neither overclock or run torture tests so I don't bother reading reviews :)
Thanks for the response. Asus used to be my go-to brand. But, then I bought a board and had endless problems; turns out the board had a known issue, yet Asus was in no way helpful. So I've been avoiding Asus, and have had great success with Gigabyte.

But now, the reviews of the new Gigabyte boards seem pretty mixed, with lots of users having problems similar to one another. So, I may possibly be persuaded to give MSI (or even Asus :? ) a try.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by Abula » Sat Sep 17, 2016 4:34 pm

L. Beau Grees wrote:
LongJan wrote: So, I may possibly be persuaded to give MSI (or even Asus :? ) a try.
You should also consider AsRock, very postive experience with them on Skylake with multiple builds, they have very good bios fan control (as long as you understand how their headers work), rock solid, i havent had any issues at all, and in most cases is cheaper.

edh
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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by edh » Sun Sep 18, 2016 10:53 pm

I have an Asus Z170I Pro Gaming and no issues to report. Fan control allows you to run fans very slowly and you can do custom fan tuning if required.

L. Beau Grees
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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:43 pm

So, a couple of you have mentioned Asus Z170I Pro Gaming; but, it does not support integrated video. [See first post; no gaming or overclocking, integrated video sufficient for my needs, which are more processor oriented than graphical.]

L. Beau Grees
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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:10 pm

Still struggling with the choice of uATX or mITX. The attraction of mITX is simply the smaller size. But of the ITX cases that are available in Canada (that I have found), most aren't really what I am looking for. A few that I do really like, but have no experience with:

Fractal Design Define Nano S This one really isn't all that small (but still a little smaller than the Define Mini, which is my uATX go-to case). I wish the Nano S would accept a uATX board!

In Win BP671
In Win BP655
In Win BP655
IN WIN BP Series
In Win BP691

Any comments on any of these cases would be appreciated.

Of course for uATX, as mentioned above, the Define Mini would be my choice.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by CA_Steve » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:37 pm

L. Beau Grees wrote:So, a couple of you have mentioned Asus Z170I Pro Gaming; but, it does not support integrated video. [See first post; no gaming or overclocking, integrated video sufficient for my needs, which are more processor oriented than graphical.]
Huh?
Integrated Graphics Processor- Intel® HD Graphics support
Multi-VGA output support : HDMI/DisplayPort ports
- Supports HDMI with max. resolution 4096 x 2160 @ 24 Hz
- Supports DisplayPort with max. resolution 4096 x 2304 @ 60 Hz
Maximum shared memory of 1024 MB
Supports Intel® InTru™ 3D, Quick Sync Video, Clear Video HD Technology, Insider™
1 x DisplayPort
1 x HDMI

L. Beau Grees
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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Fri Sep 23, 2016 2:07 pm

CA_Steve wrote:Huh?
Ooops! My bad :oops: . I looked at the picture and didn't see any video connections. Obviously I missed those; was probably expecting to see a DVI port. Okay, so time to look at this board again.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Sat Sep 24, 2016 3:52 pm

Well, I found quite a few reviews of the In Win cases above, which all reported the same: small, good looking, noisy, and many PSU DOA's. [Those cases are available with either 200W or 300W PSU's.]

The noise, some said, was the case fan, others said the PSU fan; still others weren't sure, they just knew it was noisy.

So, the case fan could be replaced, no big deal. The PSU could be pulled and replaced with something better, either in the same form factor, or perhaps a Pico? But by the time that is done, it's added quite a bit to the cost. And to what end? A nice looking (imo) case that is small, and (hopefully) quiet. But is it worth the effort?

The Define Nano is superb in every way (albeit, quite a bit larger than the In Win cases); as is the Define Mini for a uATX board. I think one of those Fractal cases will be my choice, but would still like to hear from anyone with experience with those In Win cases.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by quest_for_silence » Sat Sep 24, 2016 11:55 pm

L. Beau Grees wrote:But is it worth the effort?

Only if you praise their size/style over all the rest: I did a similar build a while ago using a mATX Antec Minuet, and (as you know) it costed much more than a Define Nano.

But the actual user (a woman) is perfectly satisfied because of its look and size (and it's inaudible to close distance, given the new semi passive TFX PSU and the undervolted after market fans).

Just as a side note, that's full of small cases around!

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:39 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:Just as a side note, that's full of small cases around!
Thanks, Luca. I only listed ones that I found at either Newegg.ca, NCIX.com, or the local store. If anyone could point out any other cases, I'd be glad to research the possibility of getting them in Canada!

On a related note, some of you have affiliate links in your signature, but as far as I am able to tell, they are to U.S. sources -- are there any equivalent affiliate links for the Canadian stores?

[EDIT:] P.S. I should add that there were, of course, many other cases listed. What I am specifically interested in (besides quiet, of course), is a slim tower, with access to the buttons and USB ports at the top (either on the top panel, or on the top of the front panel), rather than on the side or near the bottom, like so many of those cases. Not interested in a window, but the case must be available in black. So the Nano isn't exactly slim, but it is a little shorter than the Mini, and like the Mini, has that layout, and like the Mini, is a terrific case.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by edh » Sun Sep 25, 2016 1:58 pm

My experiences with the Raijintek Metis have been very good. Amazingly cheap and may fit the criteria you have specified. Whether or not it is available to you locally I do not know.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by CA_Steve » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:46 pm

Affiliate links: try replacing the .com with .ca for Amazon and Newegg. It might work. NCIX home is in Canada, so maybe their .com will work for you.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:38 pm

edh wrote:My experiences with the Raijintek Metis have been very good. Amazingly cheap and may fit the criteria you have specified. Whether or not it is available to you locally I do not know.
Thanks, edh. Great build, by the way :) .

After your post, I've read many reviews of this case (and yes, it does seem that it would fit nicely :wink: .) Everyone seems to love everything about it--except the cooling, as you said in your thread, and that mainly from the professional review sites. The user reviews seemed to have little trouble with it. Many suggested reversing the rear fan to make it an intake, with the PSU fan as exhaust. One user said he mounted a uATX mainboard in it (don't know whether or not to believe that one.)

Now here's something I'd really like to know: one user on ncix.com (for the silver case), said you could reverse the build so that the mainboard was the normal way up--I take it he meant reversing the side panels, and also flipping the rear panel. From your experience, would this actually be possible?

Sadly, quite a bit of searching didn't turn up anywhere to buy it in Canada. The Raijintek distributor page only shows one in the U.S.; that being Newegg. But they don't ship to Canada.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Sun Sep 25, 2016 5:43 pm

CA_Steve wrote:Affiliate links: try replacing the .com with .ca for Amazon and Newegg. It might work. NCIX home is in Canada, so maybe their .com will work for you.
Thanks, Steve. I tried those, and all three actually did take me to the Canadian site, with the affiliate info still in the address, so they might actually work! Will find out when it comes time to order.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by quest_for_silence » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:15 pm

L. Beau Grees wrote:Sadly, quite a bit of searching didn't turn up anywhere to buy it in Canada. The Raijintek distributor page only shows one in the U.S.; that being Newegg. But they don't ship to Canada.

May something like this build be a viable option?

BTW, on NCIX there should be available the Fractal Core 500 (check the relevant SPCR review).

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by edh » Sun Sep 25, 2016 11:52 pm

L. Beau Grees wrote:Everyone seems to love everything about it--except the cooling, as you said in your thread, and that mainly from the professional review sites. The user reviews seemed to have little trouble with it. Many suggested reversing the rear fan to make it an intake, with the PSU fan as exhaust.
You have to be clever how you build. If you use a fan cooled ATX PSU and have a 120mm fan blowing out the back it won't work well. You could, as you suggest, have the rear fan as an intake. You could also swap around the PSU fan to blow the other way, or as I have you could have a passive PSU.
L. Beau Grees wrote:One user said he mounted a uATX mainboard in it (don't know whether or not to believe that one.)
Full size MicroATX, no. MiniDTX which is sometimes sold as MicroATX and is basically like a 2 slot MiniITX might be possible however, as would some of the not quite full size MicroATX boards. He could also be referring to the Styx which is the MicroATX version.
L. Beau Grees wrote:one user on ncix.com (for the silver case), said you could reverse the build so that the mainboard was the normal way up--I take it he meant reversing the side panels, and also flipping the rear panel. From your experience, would this actually be possible?
The wonderful thing is that the case comes entirely to pieces. Therefore you just need to put it back together upside down:
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/thre ... id.212489/

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:16 pm

edh wrote:
L. Beau Grees wrote:one user on ncix.com (for the silver case), said you could reverse the build so that the mainboard was the normal way up--I take it he meant reversing the side panels, and also flipping the rear panel. From your experience, would this actually be possible?
The wonderful thing is that the case comes entirely to pieces. Therefore you just need to put it back together upside down:
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/thre ... id.212489/
That's great; that adds a whole new dimension to the case :wink: ! If it were easily available in Canada, it would be on my short list.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:27 pm

quest_for_silence wrote:May something like this build be a viable option?
You mean the Antec 110? I did look at those, but I really don't want any silver/chrome--just black. The 300, on the other hand is all black. They would make good desktop cases, but below the desk it puts the USB ports right down near the floor and hard to reach.
BTW, on NCIX there should be available the Fractal Core 500 (check the relevant SPCR review).
On Newegg, literally nearly every user complained about the difficulty with the PSU placement in that case, but the SPCR review didn't even mention that aspect. In truth, I don't think it would present much of a difficulty for me. It was a very good review, though; I really appreciate SPCR :) !

The Core 500 is more cube-like, as compared to the Nano and Mini tower style, though still a good case. Do you prefer that style? My preference is for the tower, but I won't rule out the 500.

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Re: To move from uATX to mini-ITX, or not?

Post by L. Beau Grees » Mon Sep 26, 2016 6:16 pm

So I've been spending some time concentrating on some mITX mainboards, specifically these comparable boards from Gigabyte and MSI:

H170:
GIGABYTE GA-H170N-WIFI
MSI H170I Pro AC

B150:
GIGABYTE GA-B150N PHOENIX-WIFI
MSI B150I GAMING PRO AC

H110:
GIGABYTE GA-H110N
MSI H110I Pro

Feel free to make any comments on any of these boards. I did notice a few things:

1. The Gigabyte B150 is the only one with an eight-pin power connector; the rest all have four-pin connectors. How important is this?

2. The Gigabyte H110 appears to have only four-phase power (shudder :shock: ); the rest all have only five-phase, still not too good; none of them have VRM heatsinks.

3. The MSI H110 M.2 seems to support only PCIe 2.0, x2 or x4 depending on which review one reads; the rest all seem to support PCIe 3.0 x4. Does this correspond to 20Gbps vs. 32 Gbps?

Otherwise, each MSI board is pretty comparable to the equivalent Gigabyte board (with minor feature differences, such as USB ports). Is there anything else that would set them apart?

So far, I haven't spent much time on the Z170 boards (too expensive, for features I don't need), nor have I yet looked in depth at the ASRock and Asus boards. Once done with the mITX boards, will look at the uATX boards.

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