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 Post subject: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:10 pm 
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Posts: 7
Greetings, silence lovers!

I've been visiting your website for a few years, but I never got around to building a new PC, until now.

Warning, wall of text follows, here's the tl;dr version:

1) is there any motherboard in particular that has better fan/temperature control and reliability than others, gaming not being a priority? Is the number of fan controllers and auto-detection of pwm/non-pwm the deciding factor?
2) should I wait for the CPU pricing/performance competition to play out for the next few months or should I just build now?
3) the fractal define series being overpriced here, what's an alternative for a reasonably priced matx/atx with 2 large, low rpm, filtered intake fans with a PSU not on top of the motherboard? (or whatever gives me dustless silence on a non-gaming, non overclocked system, looks are not a factor).

Thanks!

The system I'm replacing is pretty old, i5 750 with a Gigabyte P55a ud3r motherboard, inside an even older Chieftec case that I got in 2005. Built like a tank but noisy, bad airflow, no space behind the motherboard, no cpu cooler cut-out, no front intake fans, PSU on top of motherboard. I'd have to use power tools on it to get it usable on a modern build, so I'm getting a new case and doing a more up-to-date build.

Don't laugh, for what I've been using this system for, it's actually been running great, close to 24/7, so I have only nice things to say about the components. It's more than 7 years old and it needs to be retired.

I'll be doing a build around a recent 65W intel CPU with integrated graphics, Ryzen is out of the question because I don't want/need the additional gpu card right now.

I will be running a linux desktop on this, some virtual machines, spreadsheets, some database work, scripting/coding but not much actual compiling, some stress testing, I figure 16gb of ram will do just fine for now, 32 will be an upgrade in the future.

I have an M-audio pci sound card that still works very well, but only few modern motherboards have a vintage PCI slot and I don't want that to limit my choice of motherboards. There is one Asus motherboard with a PCI slot, in their commercial category, the PRIME B250M-C. I was actually looking at the Gigabyte GA-B250M-D3H, but some reviews made me want to look at other boards. I see people recommend Asrock boards, the last time I did an Asrock build, they were lower quality and the one I got started to bend after one year, the shape was ridiculous but it worked. Never had an MSI.

Back in the ancient days, bioses didn't really have fancy fan controls and temperature monitoring to the extent they have today. I will probably be running 2 intake fans, 1 exhaust and the cpu cooler, but I'm not sure what motherboard has good support for tuning the speed for the case fans - most of them advertise that they have great support. I know I can get hardware fan controllers, go the diy route, even linux has fan tuning support, but my gut tells me I'd better leave the speed control to the motherboard, if the OS crashes or locks up, the fans might stop. I will never do SLI or anything like that, and whether I get an unlocked cpu or not is still up for debate. I don't need a nvme drive for now, but at least an m.2 slot on the motherboard would be nice to have.

I'm guessing an i5 7600 + b250 motherboard will do. I'm still considering an i7 7700k + z270, but I need to figure out the budget for the entire build and it might be overkill and too hot for my needs.

There will be some good holiday deals, I'm sure of that, on the other hand I might as well wait for the 9th gen to come out and see how the pricing competition plays out between Intel and AMD. 8th gen. means more cores on the i5, that would be a nice thing to have for my needs, but I can settle for the H.265 10 bit support and 4k(ish) support that the 7th gen currently has, since actual per-core performance is very close and the pricing is much better for 7th gen.

I'm not sure this system will ever have a discreet GPU inside it. Maybe if something like Warcraft 4 ever comes out, not really a priority but I'd like to have the option to add good one, should I ever need it (related to PSU and case spacing)

I need the build to be in a solid case, I'd like it to work for at least 3 years without worrying about failure. I'm in a dusty environment, I might get a room air purifier, but that's noisy as well. My current case sits on the floor and has negative air pressure, it's full of dust. This build will be in a smaller case with positive pressure and dust filters, off the floor. I am still using an optical drive a lot but I could renounce it if I found a good case without a slot.

I'm looking at Fractal Define C mini or even the smaller itx version, but fractals are overpriced around here - $112 for the mini C, $130 for the R5. Cooler master Silencio is better priced but seems flimsy. I can get a good deal on an old Antec p182 case and maybe there will be big price drops in the following weeks, I'd hate to get a case that old for a new build. 140mm intakes at low RPM would be a nice thing to have. I might have several HDDs in the future, I'm using 3 right now, but some will be retired soon. Separate network storage would also be an option, I see some modern cases focus on multiple SSDs hidden behind the motherboards, ditching the HDD rack in the front while still keeping room for 2-3 HDDs. I have an aggressive backup strategy and that takes disk space.

I don't care about the looks, but I want 24/7 (well, not really, but close enough) reliability and noise are more important, I need to hear myself think, CPU speed is overrated when you can't get work done.

For the PSU, I'm looking at the Seasonic Focus+, the platinum rated, 92% efficient models, if I do the math right, the fan might not even start most of the time. I see people complaining about coil noise on their fanless models, so I'm not sure that's the better option. I see people also build with EVGA a lot. My current cooler master 550w PSU is still working, but the fan failed, my replacement isn't pushing enough air, it's hot and for its age and history, I simply don't trust using it anymore. I think it also overheated once because the exhaust fan failed on the case and it sucked up all that hot air by itself, top PSU placement is really bad.

Wow, that was long.

Huge thanks to anyone who read this!


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:35 am 
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Location: Monterey Bay, CA
Welcome to SPCR.
Quote:
3) the fractal define series being overpriced here

Where is "here"? What e-tailers do you like to use? (It'll help with component selection).

What's your budget? What are your current processing constraints (CPU horsepower, memory use, etc..)

As an FYI, an 85 euro Kaby Lake Pentium has more processing power than your i5 750. So, really, anything will be a nice step up.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

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 Post subject: Re: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 4:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:29 pm
Posts: 7
Hello CA_Steve!

Case prices, converted to USD, tried to select most talked-about models: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/25950431/
Some are more expensive than the motherboards. I can get a good used case for $30-$35, maybe less, but replacing the fans will add to that.

I'm in Romania, the major e-tailers with the largest component selection have prices 10-20% higher than the smaller shops, I'll be buying components from 3 different places because of that, shipping a big + heavy case from abroad is too expensive. The prices I'm showing are the lowest I can get from reputable vendors.

CPUs:
I5 7600 $251
I7 7700 $339
i7 7700k $376

I5 8400 $218
I7 8700 $376
i7 8700k $439

Most common motherboard prices:
B250 $80-105
Z270 $113-150
Z370 $143-210

2x8GB sticks of ddr4 are about $220

Seasonic focus+ gold PSUs are $110-150, (550w-850w), the platinum models start from $130. I am starting out with no GPU, but I'd like to have the option to add one without getting a new PSU.

For the motherboard features, I am looking at 4 memory slots, at least one m.2 slot, DisplayPort (nice to have), so for a b250 build, I'd have the following options:

gigabyte ga-b250m-d3h $88 << 4 fan pin headers, 6 temp sensors,
msi b250 mortar $95 << 4 fan headers, usb type C, fancy LEDs that I will never see
asus prime b250m-c $93 << 2 fan headers, also has a PCI slot, that's a bonus, this one is supposed to be better for 24/7

4 memory slots + DisplayPort restricts the selection a lot, so I'll also be looking at other boards for b250 as well.

Other chipsets:
asus prime z270-p $138
gigabyte ga-z270-gaming k3 $144
msi z270 tomahawk $149
asrock z270 pro4 $113

asus prime z370-a $208
Gigabyte ga-z370-hd3 $148
msi z370 gaming pro carbon $226
asrock z370 pro4 $143

For 8th gen / z370 the cpu+mobo, there are availability problems and the price increase / performance ratio is not looking good.

For the constraints, I can already use up 8gb of ram so I need 16gb to start with. For the CPU, as you've said, anything will be a step up, I'm not sure the i7 7700k + z270 board is overkill or not. If I get into mobile development, it probably won't be, but it's not like i5 7600 is sluggish or limiting in that regard. I've been looking at cyanogenmod / lineage OS compile requirements (for the entire OS) and they are not light, but I'm not doing that at the moment.

For cooling/price/power consumption, the b250+i5 7600 is hard to beat, in my opinion, but the 7700k is also within budget, if I can convince myself that I need it.

Most likely, the first upgrade to this machine will be adding 16GB of RAM to it, then an m.2 nvme drive, not the CPU. Overclocking kind of goes against the whole stable/cool/quiet thing imho.

Basically, I can't figure out what a 'good' motherboard even means, and I'd rather pay $143 for a drill than for the r5, and then McGyver the hell out of my ancient Chieftec.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Here's the stuff I'd look for in the motherboard:
- since you are running linux, you'll want to get an idea how well any given motherboard or vendor supports linux/drivers. I'm sure some are better than others...you might check out phoronix.com for all h/w things linux. Gut feel is Asus (and maybe Gigabyte) tends to support the linux community better than others.
- I'm a fan of crowdsourced reviews - at least to weed out the bottom feeders. Go to some really large e-tailer sites (like Amazon.com or newegg.com) and see how well the users rate the boards...and if a lot of the bad ratings are just in the first few months of release,...it's usually buggy early release firmware/drivers rather than the board itself.
- does the board have the features you want? EG: I'm a fan of Intel NIC for the LAN. If you opt to stick with mobo audio, there's a break point between lower end boards with older codec/audio solutions and the newst gen/isolated analog/etc.
- fan control:
-- since it's linux, you'll want BIOS level fan control. From the 200 series mobos forward, all four vendors have decent fan control with some a little better than others.
-- For lower end boards, Asrock tends to have 1 voltage control case fan and the rest are PWM. I think the others have switchable (PWM or DC) case fan controls.
-- The whole automated fan wizard thing is nice in concept, but it can be buggy at bios level. Reality is it doesn't take much brainpower for you to dial in what the min start speed of your fan is...just a handful of restarts.

Case: yeah, a decent case might cost you some bucks...but it's going to last a loooong time. If your budget runs dry, you could spend money and time on the old case...but, it may/may not allow for the fans/fan size/airflow you'd want...not a big deal for a cpu only system...but it'll matter if you add a midrange or higher gfx card. What's the model of your 12 year old case?

PSU: Early reviews for the Seasonic Focus+ look good so far. Gold efficiency is fine...not a lot of waste heat difference between them and Platinum at same DC output level.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:15 pm 
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PSU - two other possibilities are the Corsair RM550x and be quiet! straight power 10 500...as for power use, your proposed system with, say, 1 SSD and 3 HDDs will have a stress load of maybe 120W with all HDDs spinning. So, adding a midrange gfx card (GTX 1050 Ti is 75W, GTX 1060 is 120W) won't impact the PSU sizing.

Case: maybe you could list the case model possibilities...

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:53 am 
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Posts: 476
Location: Sweden
Some comments on case features:
Sero wrote:
... Built like a tank but noisy, bad airflow, no space behind the motherboard, no cpu cooler cut-out, no front intake fans, PSU on top of motherboard.
  • "Noisy" and "bad airflow" go hand in hand, although it might be noisy even with a good airflow. I prefer to have the air follow a path that makes the cooling efficient rather than just having lots of air.
  • "No space behind motherboard" isn't really an issue unless the case has glass panels.
  • "No CPU cooler cut-out". Not an issue. Cut-outs in the side panel at the CPU went out of fashoin years ago, and a cut-out behind the motherboard is only useful if you want to replace the CPU cooler without removing the motherboard. Can't say that's been a problem for me in the last 20 years...
  • "No front intake fans." Might be an issue depending on the required amount of cooling, air filtering and general cooling layout. For the latest computer I built (delivered to the customer yesterday) I removed the pre-mounted front fan and added a smaller rear fan instead to make the computer quieter and get more efficient paths for the air flow.
  • "PSU on top of motherboard" can be beneficial as part of the cooling solution. It's not inherently bad. (Also used on that latest build of mine.)


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:46 pm 
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I think the case is BH-02B-B-B (or something very similar to it), this is the closest link I could find, mine has purple plastics instead and no filter, but the same layout, all the rage in 2005:
https://www.mindfactory.de/product_info.php/Chieftec-Uni-BH-02B-B-B-Midi-Tower-ohne-Netzteil-schwarz_139610.html
https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/products/90150526/chieftec-miditower-bh-02b-b-b-op-black.asp
The front drive cage and the 3 optical drive slots (+floppy) are very well rivetted down and I can't get front fans in there without tools and skill, it might make a good project someday. Only 1x120mm exhaust.

For the cpu cooler, I'm looking at Scythe Mugen 5 rev.B or Mugen Max to future-proof, I understand by reading the other threads that even the Kotetsu is a great product and would handle a 65w cpu (i5 7600), so it's considered. The Macho HR-02 rev.b / rev.a are also in the price range, still checking the ram slot compatibilities, but some of the designs are asymmetrical, so they would work, one of them, a or b, ships with a fan worse than the US version. Noctuas are overpriced.

I'm thinking the semi-passive PSU would not benefit from being on top of the motherboard, but with a decent cooler, a lot of heat might not end up there at all, I'm not sure if the PSUs have a temperature sensor or they start their fan predetermined by power usage.

For the case fans, I think I'll go with something from Scythe as well, depending on what I decide to do, I'd like to have at least 1x140mm filtered intake.

Thank you for your feedback, it's been much appreciated!


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:25 am 
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Chietec case: 92mm fans in front with a very restricted path (drive cages), one 120mm in back. Yeah, not that great of airflow. Also, old style PSU placement = PSU sucks in case air and exhausts it in back. Not horrible for you as your load power isn't high. But, PSU fan control is temperature based. Depending on the PSU, it could..maybe..cause the PSU fan to spin for your loads where a bottom mounted PSU wouldn't.

I completely missed seeing the pastebin link for case prices :)
Don't have time to sort through it right now - I'll take a look later.

coolers: all are good.

fans: select case, then work on fans.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

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 Post subject: Re: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:41 pm 
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The lowest priced case I'd get from your list is the be quiet! Pure Base 600 @ $86. It's very quiet and good enough airflow for your build.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 8:51 pm 
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Case: Fractal R5
PSU: Seasonic Focus+, 80+ Gold, 550W
CPU cooler: Scythe Mugen 5 Rev.B
CPU: i5 7600
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-B250M-D3H
Ram: Corsair 16GB 2400MHz CL14
Storage: Samsung 850 Evo 250GB SATA-III

All just under USD $1000, shipping included, thanks to some discounts on various components, including the case, but I'm sure when it will be shipped.

Thank you! You've been very helpful and the wealth of knowledge in this place is amazing. I still have an old Accelero passive heatsink I bought years ago after reading about it here, and that is one relatively obscure, but very useful piece of hardware that will probably outlast this build as well. I can probably change the cpu + motherboard in a few years and keep most of the rest of the components, if ddr4 doesn't fall out of fashion. The rest of the components could have a much, much longer lifespan, if I manage not to overheat the PSU.


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:22 pm 
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Have fun with your build....and DDR5 probably won't hit PCs until 2022. :)

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: NCIX, Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: Replacing my (t)rusty i5-750
PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:33 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 12:22 pm
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Location: Guatemala
Quote:
I can probably change the cpu + motherboard in a few years and keep most of the rest of the components, if ddr4 doesn't fall out of fashion
As steve noted, DDR5 is far away, but each gen intel supports higher speed ddr4, so you most likely will also need to change the ram if you plan to have the performance that new chipset delivers.

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GameMiv3 >> AsRock H170 Pro4 | Intel Core i7-6700K | Prolimatech Genesis + 2x Thermalright TY-147A | Kingston HyperX FURY 64GB DDR4 2133 | MSI GTX1080 Gaming X | Acer Predator XB321HK 4K IPS Gsync | Samsung 850pro 1TB | WD RED 3TB | Silverstone FT05 + 2x Silverstone AP182 | SeaSonic SS-860XP2
Other builds ---> ServeMi | CamMi | SimMi


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