It is currently Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:11 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Should we be buying new Vista ready computers?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:41 pm
Posts: 112
Microsoft® Windows Vista™ plans to enable the playback of next-generation premium content such as HD DVD and other formats that are licensed under the Advanced Access Content System (AACS) specification for all systems that it trust. Microsoft plans to work behind the scenes to help end-users systems become trusted and continue to be trusted by Microsoft and thus be able to enjoy the premium content they have purchased and are entitled to the "fair use" of, while assuming ownership of the content is the content providers and not the end-users.

To ensure access to this new content, systems must support the requirements that are defined by the AACS specification and the requirements of content providers.

Windows Vista fulfills one of these requirements through code signing.

System and device manufacturers must follow new code-signing requirements for systems that will support the playback of premium content. These requirements include:
All kernel-mode code must be code signed for a PC system to be able to play back next-generation premium content.
Components that run within the Windows Vista Protected Media Path (PMP) must be signed for the PMP to ensure access to premium content.
Display device drivers must include an embedded certificate that verifies a robust pipeline throughout the video processing engine.


Premium-content owners require a higher level of access protection than was previously necessary. PC systems and devices that do not comply with the policies that are associated with a given piece of content will not be able to play back that content. An example of such a requirement is that content can only be served to an identified kernel when it flows through the PC. An identified kernel has all of its modules signed by a trusted source

Systems must support the protection policy requirements as defined by the premium-content owners. System and device manufacturers are working with Microsoft to meet these requirements. In general, content protection encompasses multiple technologies, such as copy protection, link protection, conditional access, and digital rights management (DRM). Each of these technologies attempts to ensure that content can be used only in a way that is consistent with what the content owner intended.

Terminology:

Advanced Access Content System (AACS)is a specification for managing content that is stored on the next generation of prerecorded and recorded optical media for consumer use with PCs and consumer electronic devices.

Certification authority (CA)is an authority that provides certificates to confirm that the public key is from the subject who claims to have sent the public key.

Code-signing certificate is a certificate that is issued for the purpose of signing binaries.

Cross certification is the process of issuing subordinate CA certificates for existing CAs that link two root CAs.

Cross-certification authority certificate is a certificate that is issued by one CA for another CA's signing key pair (that is, for another CA's public verification key). Also known as cross certificate.

DRM attribute is a code-signing attribute that is provided by the Windows Logo Program. It verifies that the driver complies with Universal Audio Architecture (UAA) audio hardware requirements and allows the driver to handle protected content.

Discrete versus integrated graphics - A discrete graphics adapter is a stand-alone device, typically a plug-in board. An integrated graphics adapter is embedded in the system board chipset.

Identified kernel is a kernel in which all kernel-mode drivers on the system are signed by a source that Microsoft trusts.

Kernel-mode code signing (KMCS)the process of digitally signing software so that it meets the system requirements to be loaded in kernel mode. When used by vendors, KMCS combines standard code signing with an additional cross certificate that verifies the code's identity.

Media Interoperability Gateway (MIG)an extensible multimedia pipeline that is built on top of the new Media Foundation API and running inside the Protected Environment (PE).

MIG plug-in Media processing or content protection components that are meant to be hosted inside the MIG pipeline and PE to process protected premium content. Examples of MIG plug-ins are codecs and content-protection components such as decryptors.

Participating driver is any user-mode component that loads into the PMP PE and has access to unencrypted protected content that flows through a PC system to a final destination, such as a monitor.

Protected content is any content that is protected by some form of DRM.

Premium content is next-generation media content such as an HD DVD and other formats that are protected under the AACS standard.

Protected Environment (PE)is the protected execution environment in which PMP components run.

Protected Media Path (PMP)is an umbrella term for the collection of platform technologies that provide content processing. PMP is a platform for sourcing, sinking, and manipulating protected media content. Technologies that constitute the Protected Media Path include Protected Video Path (PVP), Protected User-Mode Audio (PUMA), and the PE. The PMP runs inside the PE.
Protected User-Mode Audio (PUMA)is the new User-Mode Audio (UMA) engine in the PE. It checks that the enabled outputs are consistent with what the premium content provider allows. PUMA-compliant code is identified to the system through the DRM attribute.

Protected Video Path (PVP)is an umbrella term for the protection mechanisms that operate within the Protected Environment on your PC to ensure that the various video outputs from the PC—such as Digital Video Interface (DVI), video graphics array (VGA), and TV-out—are properly controlled or protected in accordance with the content’s policy. PVP components include PVP-OPM and PVP‑UAB.

Protected video path-output protection management (PVP_OPM)is a component that ensures that the PC's video outputs have the required protection for the Content providers or that they are turned off for the end user if such protection is not available.

PVP-OPM Legacy Mode Certificate is a certificate that replaces the Windows XP Certified Output Protection Protocol (COPP) certificate. From an engineering standpoint, this is a COPP format certificate. It is intended for use on Windows Vista only to allow COPP legacy applications to function.

Protected video path-user accessible bus (PVP_UAB)is a component that provides encryption of premium content as it passes over the PCI Express (PCIe) bus to the graphics adapter to keep the end user from accessing this content in any way that might conflict with the desires of the content provider and thereby true content owner per Microsoft.

Secure Audio Path (SAP)is the mechanism introduced in Microsoft Windows XP to protect audio content rendering. Windows Vista replaces SAP with PUMA. SAP-compliant code is identified to the system through the DRM attribute.

The PMP and Output Protection

The PMP consists of four primary components, MIG, PVP-OPM, PVP-UAB, and PUMA:
MIG provides content protection for Media Foundation applications. It is an extensible platform for sourcing, sinking, and manipulating protected media content. MIG governs policy usage and runs media in a separate process to ensure that media content is used only in a way that is consistent with the intent of the content provider.
PVP-OPM ensures that a PC’s integrated graphics adapter outputs have the protection that is required under license agreement with content owners. It provides reliable control of output protection schemes such as high-bandwidth digital content protection (HDCP), Macrovision, and Copy Generation Management System-Analog (CGMS-A).
PVP-UAB encrypts premium content as it passes over the PCI Express (PCIe) bus to a discrete graphics adapter. This encryption is required when a content owner’s policy regards the PCIe bus as a user-accessible bus.
PUMA provides a safer environment for audio playback, as well as checking that the enabled outputs are consistent with what the premium content provider allows. PUMA includes the same level of audio output protection management that SAP provided in Windows XP, but it is handled in a completely different way and takes advantage of the PE.

Manufacturers of graphics adapters must implement the required protection mechanisms on card outputs and must ensure that the associated drivers have robust control of those outputs. Manufacturers must sign a PVP‑OPM or PVP-UAB license agreement to receive a PVP certificate, which must be embedded in their drivers. Without the embedded PVP certificate, Windows Vista is not allowed to pass premium content to the driver.
The following figure provides a quick summary of how components that are discussed in this paper interact in Windows Vista.

PMP Overview
Code-Signing Requirements for PMP Components
This section briefly summarizes the components and methods that are involved in signing code to support premium-content playback on Windows Vista systems.
Components that Must Be Signed
A number of components must be signed. However, the type of signing depends on the particular component and whether it supports next-generation premium content.
To satisfy content-providers’ requirement for an "identified kernel," all code that loads into kernel memory in Windows Vista must be signed for identity to allow playback of next-generation premium content.
Display device drivers must have an embedded PVP-OPM or PVP-UAB certificate, in addition to the signing for identity that is required for kernel-mode components.
PVP-OPM certificates are required for all graphics devices.
Where bus encryption is required, PVP-UAB certificates are required.
All user-mode code that loads into the PE must be PMP‑PE signed or signed by WHQL with a PE attribute. This requirement includes components that participate in PUMA.
If the content requires PUMA, kernel-mode drivers that load into the audio stack must be signed with the DRM attribute, which ensures that content that is not so protected by using Windows Media DRM cannot be played.

KMCS Requirements
KMCS is used to ensure that content is served only to an identified kernel when it flows through the PC. Microsoft considers a kernel "identified" if all kernel-mode drivers on the system are signed by a source that Microsoft trusts. KMCS is an important step that helps ensure great consumer experiences by providing increased device reliability and access to next-generation entertainment experiences. System and device manufacturers are urged to get their kernel-mode drivers signed.
Currently, the following signing methods are accepted for kernel-mode modules:
Signed through the WHQL testing program as part of a driver package submission. For further information, see the WHQL Web site, which is listed in "Resources" at the end of this paper.
Signed by the vendor, by using the KMCS process. This process uses the vendor’s code-signing certificate together with the cross certificate.


User-Mode Code-Signing Requirements
PUMA is the new user-mode audio engine in the Windows Vista PE. It provides a safe environment for audio playback and also checks that the enabled outputs are consistent with what the content allows. To be loaded in the PMP PE and process premium content, all user-mode binaries—including codecs, media sources, and media sinks—must be signed with a PE attribute.
Currently, the following signing methods are accepted for user-mode modules:
Signed by WHQL.
If the package that is submitted to WHQL includes a Windows Display Driver Model (WDDM) driver and a related user-mode component, WHQL signs the package with a PE attribute.
If the package that is submitted to WHQL falls into the audio classification program, WHQL signs the package with both PE and DRM attributes.
Signed by the vendor, by using a PMP-PE certificate, obtained from Microsoft. For information on this certificate, see "How to Obtain Certificates" later in this paper.


Revocation and Renewal
After a trusted PE component has been released and installed on users systems, it could for a variety of reasons become untrusted. For example, the signing certificate's private key could be compromised. A component that becomes untrusted is revoked, which means that the PE is no longer allowed to handle premium content.

Microsoft provides a way to renew compromised components with updated trusted versions so that end users can once again enjoy the content they paid for that they are not able to due to Microsoft not trusting their PC's.

There are three renewal scenarios and provision is also made in the event renewal is not possible:

Automatic renewal. By default, Windows Vista automatically downloads and installs all critical and recommended updates.

Component renewal is considered a recommended update, this enables system and component providers access to end user systems to quietly update the component before it can cause any problems for the user without the knowledge of the end-user.

On-demand renewal. If the user has disabled automatic updates or has been off the network for an extended time, thus keeping components from being renewed, the end user may attempt an application to play premium content with an untrusted component. In this case, the application and not the end user will be notified of such an attempt and given the opportunity to initiate the updates the end-user has disabled and will be provided with a URL that allows the application to initiate the renewal process. The process is handled in one of two ways:
The URL references a specific Microsoft Update package. The process downloads the package and launches the Update Installation Wizard to install it or in some cases where the end user is or should be aware of this process, the URL takes the user to a Web site where he or she can manually download the updated version.

Not renewable. In rare cases, an updated version of the component may not be available, for example, the company that implemented the component has gone out of business. If the component is not essential, the PE can work around the issue by not loading the component. If the component is essential, the application is provided with a URL that directs the user to a Web page that has information on the issue.


Summary of Certificates and Signing Options
The following table summarizes the different types of certificates and the signing options for various components.
Certificates Used During Playback of Protected Content that Requires PMP

Component Certificate type required Certificate
use Example playback scenarios enabled Options for signing
Code signing Code signing HD DVD KMCS1, WHQL2
PVP-OPM Challenge-response HD DVD on integrated graphics adapters MFPMP3
PVP-UAB Challenge-response HD DVD on discrete graphics adapters MFPMP
PVP-OPM legacy mode Challenge-response Content that required COPP on Windows XP MFPMP
Non-participating kernel-mode driver Code signing Code signing HD DVD KMCS, WHQL
Participating user‑mode display driver component PMP-PE Code signing Playback of protected content through the PMP WHQL, MFPMP
Participating kernel-mode audio driver components PUMA Code signing SAP content when audio service providers turn on this requirement. WHQL
Participating user-mode audio driver components or audio processing objects (APOs) PMP-PE Code signing Components or APOs can process protected content. WHQL, MFPMP
Media Foundation pipeline plug-ins (codecs, mf‑transforms) PMP-PE Code signing Plug-ins can process protected content MFPMP
1 KMCS process, using a code-signing certificate and a cross certificate.
2 Windows Hardware Quality Labs testing program.
3 Media Foundation Protected Media Path

Kernel modules signed with a test certificate are considered untrusted by the Windows Vista PE Authority. This means that the kernel is reported as "not identified" and premium content that requires an identified kernel will not play back.

Playback of premium content requires that only identified drivers be loaded on the system.
When content is loaded on a system, several checks are required to ensure the safety of the system. One check is for the presence of an identified kernel. When requested, the PMP performs this check by verifying that all kernel modules that are loaded on the system have been signed by a source that Microsoft trusts. If this verification fails, the PMP halts playback of that content and sends a message to the media application that includes information to help resolve the issue.

Premium content requires signed legacy kernel-mode modules.
kernel. Playback that requires an identified kernel cannot be played if the system contains any legacy unsigned kernel-mode drivers. To play this content, consumers must obtain a signed version of the driver from the vendor.

Summary and Call to Action

Kernel-mode driver signing helps ensure that end-users with Microsofts help and Vista will be provided access to next-generation entertainment experiences.

Call to action for device and system manufacturers:
Two general recommendations:
Sign your code. Even without the issues related to premium content, Microsoft recommends that software and driver vendors sign all their code.
Participate in the Windows Vista Logo Program.

For system and device manufacturers who create products that support Windows Vista premium content experiences, the following code-signing requirements must be met:
All kernel-mode code must be code signed. This meets that content-providers’ requirement for an "identified" kernel. This requirement applies to both x86- and x64-based systems and includes both participating and non-participating drivers. All driver and application components that participate in the Windows Vista PE must—at a minimum—be signed by WHQL or with the manufacturer’s certificate. This requirement includes all user-mode components that are part of the PMP.
Display device drivers must include an embedded certificate for PVP-OPM (for integrated graphics adapters) or PVP-UAB (for discrete graphics adapters).

I don't want to reward these big companies for what seems to be consumer oppressive tactics done in our best interest.. a tech tyranny done for the best interest of all?, but what choices do we have if we want the best tech?

Right now.. I am thinking of just keeping my old Windows program.. and not going with Vista.. for as long as possible.. but with almost all new tech having embedded transmitters and receivers.. allowing or not allowing the full use of my pc to me.. Do we really have any choice to not participate?


Last edited by thegoldenstrand on Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:22 pm
Posts: 2465
Location: London
You know, that seems like a whole lot of legalese to regulate a simple case:

1) You buy a movie.
2) You play it.

:roll:

Instead, we have:

1) You buy a movie for heavy money.
2) You buy an operating system for even heavier money so you can play the movie.
3) You buy a new computer that's actually capable of running the said new operating system.
4) You may be able to play the movie, if you have a whatnot-enabled graphics card.

... or...

1) You download a movie from the internets.
2) You play the movie.

_________________
Thinkpad X200 – aging fan, T60p – Core Duo whine :(
Nothing endures but change


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:02 pm 
Offline
Friend of SPCR

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:50 pm
Posts: 680
Location: Sydney, Australia
Sorry, your post is far too long. Can you give me the edited highlights please?

_________________
Main PC: Antec SLK 3000B, Fortron Bluestorm 400w, Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L, Intel e7300, Kingston 2x2Gb Value DDR2, OCZ Vertex 2 60Gb, 320Gb 7200.10, 750Gb Samsung. Silencing/Cooling mods= Glacialtech 120mm front fan, rear Tri-cool on low, CPU HSF = std @ 850rpm :D
WHS: Antec LS-100, GA-MA74GM-S2H, LE-1250, 2x2Gb XMS DDR2, 7Tb
HTPC: Antec NSK2480B, MA78GPM-DS2H & Athlon 64 X2 4850e


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:55 am
Posts: 5085
Location: UK
Firetech wrote:
Sorry, your post is far too long. Can you give me the edited highlights please?


Basically, he's saying with the advent of hardware TPM (trusted platform module) as well as much more restrictive DRM software with Vista and future motherboards and procs, isn't it time we all got on board the copyright-restricted hardware train?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:38 pm 
Offline
Friend of SPCR

Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2005 4:50 pm
Posts: 680
Location: Sydney, Australia
Ahhh, so it's a pro Linux thread :lol:

_________________
Main PC: Antec SLK 3000B, Fortron Bluestorm 400w, Gigabyte GA-G31M-S2L, Intel e7300, Kingston 2x2Gb Value DDR2, OCZ Vertex 2 60Gb, 320Gb 7200.10, 750Gb Samsung. Silencing/Cooling mods= Glacialtech 120mm front fan, rear Tri-cool on low, CPU HSF = std @ 850rpm :D
WHS: Antec LS-100, GA-MA74GM-S2H, LE-1250, 2x2Gb XMS DDR2, 7Tb
HTPC: Antec NSK2480B, MA78GPM-DS2H & Athlon 64 X2 4850e


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:24 pm
Posts: 24
At the moment, there is zero content that requires Vista (obviously).

There is speculation that the whole effort is going to be a giant flop, and that content creators won't cripple their media so badly. Thus, there may never be much content that requires Vista, and Vista hardware.

I don't see a compelling reason to spend extra cash before we see what the options for media are going to be.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:49 am
Posts: 3011
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
Well if you do anything more demanding than office tasks your computer is probably already vista compatible.

Oh and its not just your graphics card taht has to supprot HDCP, your monitor also has to support it. That´s not a Vista problem though, its anything. Same thing with your TV. Though i don´t think there´s any point in running HD content to a crappy TV anyway... :roll: My point being that soon we will all be buying new monitors and graphics cards if we want to use a computer to play movies. Otherwise we will just get a black screen or a seriuosly reduced resolution and size of the picture.

Basically i hate everything DRM. I buy good stuff, and i expect to be able to do what i want with it. And whatever i might download its stuff i wouldnt otherwise bother buying anyway so whos losing anything? Hollywood and record companies count their losses so that every single song or movie downloaded is a loss for them, when in fact a large percentage of those downloads are free advertising for them because people wouldnt bother actually paying for the shit.

I like the idea of legal P2P movies for a resonable price though :) Ah bum, i went totally OT again. :oops:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 8:52 pm
Posts: 532
Firetech wrote:
Ahhh, so it's a pro Linux thread :lol:

?
Anti unless linux will also have these elements.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2006 4:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:46 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Seattle, Washington
It's amazing how these huge companies will collude with one another to essentially ship a broken product to people. I can only imagine paying for a movie, and not being able to play it because someone deemed my computer-based entertainment system to be a piracy risk. This reminds me of the Sony rootkit that was discovered some months ago that came on Sony/BMG disks.

It's funny that they will just drive me to download movies instead of buying them. I'm not an advocate of piracy per se, but the fact is that 'entertainment' has gotten too expensive these days. And considering that these companies are investing billions to 'protect' their product, I can see why. The fact is, all of this 'protection' will get cracked soon enough because people who pay for movies will want to watch them on their own terms, back them up, or at least not have the movies watch back.

It's reaching a point with Windows/Mac that your operating system is skeptical of you. I mean, why should my computer do something that I don't want it to do? (ie treat me like a criminal)

Eventually, all digital media must run along an analog path to be viewed. Thus, all this 'protection' (from ourselves) that we're paying for is useless.

Apologies for the ranting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 8:52 pm
Posts: 532
Candor, you rant as you say at comanies for being badly behaved when by you have a criminal mentality yourself?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:49 am
Posts: 3011
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
Entartainment is simpy too expensive, who in their right state of mind pays 30€ for a DVD? :shock: It has to be an extremely good movie... Otherwise ill just wait a couple of months and pick it up for 10€. HD movies will probably be even more expensive than current DVDs, reason below.

History, the CD is released and increases in popularity. The price for CDs is significantly higher than the same music on a c-cassette or LP, record companies say its because the new technology is expensive. So obviously the CDs will reduce in price when the technology becomes more common, well no. CDs are more expensive now than 20 years ago! Same with VHS/DVD, same content, dvd cheaper to manufacture and distribute, dvd costs twice the price.

It´s nice to see some movie companies starting to explore P2P as a channel for distributing legal movies. Make them HD and put a reasonable price-tag on them, and im sure they will outsell DVDs pretty soon. Everybody wins, better for the environment too since packagin and logistics are eliminated. DRM is a must on them though, and i don´t mind as long as the product works as its supposed to=i can watch it on any machine i want to.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: I kind of wish for simpler days when PC's were Personal..
PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:41 pm
Posts: 112
I have gotten a little paranoid about control issues.. beginning with XP and so many ways Microsoft accesses your pc and phones home to Vista and the embedded devices and plaforms in the hardware.. kind of limits our choices and will increase prices.. imo..

anyway.. i do not own windows.. i did.. but microsoft does not recognize it.. from four or five years ago.. after that I have been using computer mostly just at work until I got hurt.. and now.. at home.. using borrowed pc.. but plan to assemble my own.. within a month or two. once cpu prices drop..

anyway.. i am considering Windows 2000 Pro and Windows XP. and leaning towards windows 2k pro.. appears with service pack 4 for 2k and service pack 2 for XP these Operating systems are very similar.. a little better performance with XP, more optinons to disable stuff and keep Microsoft from phoning home with Windows 2k..

anyway.. I also heard I could buy XP and downgrade to Windows 2000 with service pack 4..

Where is the best place to buy the operating system?

How do you downgrade?

and.. while I will go with a slightly weaker program for more control.. if there are real issues with Windows 2k pro or alternatives that I can make a few changes to.. like Windows XP with Service pack 1, that needs a few tweaks to get it secure.. for right price I am interested..

Just not ready for Vista.. i am currently able to read.. sore eyes and bad eyes and all.. but this has not been the rule the past ten years.. hence my alarm at something many of you were well aware of.. but.. may not be able to read due to eyes much longer.. so.. figured to gather info.. and buy os and build computer while I can..


Thanks for any help!!

Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:46 am 
Offline
Friend of SPCR

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:14 am
Posts: 1235
Location: Finland
Thegoldenstrand, you could try linux. Today it's easy for people with no prior experience. Basically you can just download a cd image, burn it, boot with it, and it'll install and work without any wizardry done by you.

For your distribution I recommend Ubuntu. Here's a clip from the http://www.ubuntu.com front page:
Quote:
The Ubuntu community is built on the ideas enshrined in the Ubuntu Philosophy: that software should be available free of charge, that software tools should be usable by people in their local language and despite any disabilities, and that people should have the freedom to customise and alter their software in whatever way they see fit.


It's built on top of debian, which is one of the distributions I use, and which is the most no-hassle distribution I know of, administrating it is really a breeze. The difference of distributions is in the administration, daily usage shouldn't have differences in any of them.

For ex... you want to install xmms (music player)? You type "sudo aptitude install xmms" on the command line, or if you prefer, you could instead use the synaptic graphical package manager and clickety click on the friendly gui to achieve the same goal. No need to surf the web to find and download the software.

Another example, upgrading... So you want to upgrade your system? You'll just run "sudo aptitude update" followed with "sudo aptitude dist-upgrade" on the command line, or you could use a update manager instead, which is an easy to use gui application. Or you could just enable automatic updates just like on windows. BUT this updates both your system AND your software, everything you have installed. Compare this to upgrading all your software on windows... On windows you would need to surf on gazillion web pages to download the new versions, and some stuff you'd need to carry home from the store.

_________________
my general purpose desktop system: HP LP3065 30" LCD 2560x1600 pixels, Q9450, 8GB DDR2 ECC 800MHz, EVGA 460GTX 1GB SC (OC@800MHz/2000MHz), WD Velociraptor 300GB, Samsung 2TB, Gigabyte EX38-DS4, Antec P182b, Corsair VX450, Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme, Scythe S-Flex fan, <90W AC idle, 200W AC gaming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:57 am 
Offline
Friend of SPCR

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:14 am
Posts: 1235
Location: Finland
About the subject of trust. I want to use a system I trust, not one that Microsoft (or any other company for that matter) trusts.

I'll just keep on using DVD-quality material. It's good enough and probably cheaper than HD. I'd need a larger television than my current 28" widescreen to really benefit from HD anyway.

Just a couple days ago I finally dropped Windows from my dualboot box altogether. It hadn't seen nearly any usage hours in the last half a year, and now that it didn't survive moving the system partition to a bigger hard drive, it was time for it to go.

I realize there are many things you absolutely need windows for, like if you want to be able to play all new games the day they come out, and if you require some special software that won't work satisfactorily under windows emulator in linux, but for many many people, the switch would be well possible.

_________________
my general purpose desktop system: HP LP3065 30" LCD 2560x1600 pixels, Q9450, 8GB DDR2 ECC 800MHz, EVGA 460GTX 1GB SC (OC@800MHz/2000MHz), WD Velociraptor 300GB, Samsung 2TB, Gigabyte EX38-DS4, Antec P182b, Corsair VX450, Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme, Scythe S-Flex fan, <90W AC idle, 200W AC gaming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:18 am
Posts: 96
The only reason I still use M$ is because game companies are tied into proprietary DirectX. Get a solid emulator for Linux that can handle a majority of games without having the end user code parts themselves, and there's little reason to settle for M$ anymore.

I believe M$ and the govt. were working on Paladium a while back, these new "features" in Vista are just parts of that idea, tying software directly to hardware so it can't be moved between machines. And of course they will force "features" in that require new hardware; the PC market hasn't needed faster machines for a couple years now, except to hold up the ever-heavier mass of the OS. I used nLite on Windows 2000 to strip out all the garbage features, then took the guides made by Blackviper, and had a machine that ran at 42mb of ram at the desktop, compared to the defualt desktop at 105mb or so. And it still had all the necessary features an OS needed. Funny thing was, there was so little garbage left that most of the "critical updates" weren't needed, since I never install the offending code.

I look forward to an OS which follows the hardware principles followed by this site: find an acceptable level of performance/function, then build an efficient system around that which has minimal impact. These days the OS is just dead weight, much to the delight of hardware makers trying to push the latest models and generate upgrade revenue.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: windows emulator for linux
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:41 pm
Posts: 112
Thanks for the reply..

I will google to find out more about this.. I would prefer not to have Microsoft possess my pc if I can avoid it, of course they might anyway as they are the greatest hacking company in the world and have put stuff in the hardware now that might threaten Windows alternatives in the near future..

any and all help much appreciated!

Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 6:59 am 
Offline
Friend of SPCR

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:14 am
Posts: 1235
Location: Finland
breunor wrote:
I look forward to an OS which follows the hardware principles followed by this site: find an acceptable level of performance/function, then build an efficient system around that which has minimal impact. These days the OS is just dead weight, much to the delight of hardware makers trying to push the latest models and generate upgrade revenue.


Umm, did you ever really use something else than Windows?

Many other OSes run fine with older hardware and they support installing just a minimal system, selecting what you really need and dropping everything else.

_________________
my general purpose desktop system: HP LP3065 30" LCD 2560x1600 pixels, Q9450, 8GB DDR2 ECC 800MHz, EVGA 460GTX 1GB SC (OC@800MHz/2000MHz), WD Velociraptor 300GB, Samsung 2TB, Gigabyte EX38-DS4, Antec P182b, Corsair VX450, Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme, Scythe S-Flex fan, <90W AC idle, 200W AC gaming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2005 10:18 am
Posts: 96
Yup, I've tried other systems and like I mentioned if I could play the games I like without having to do serious coding to get partial compatibility I would. I tried working with Wine on Linux a while back, but I don't have the time and coding skill needed to make the games run on Linux. Thus I make do.

I totally agree that outside of that limitation there are excellent OS options out there which run on lower requirements. For a while I had Linux on one machine for doing all my normal stuff, and a second machine not online with windows/games. But then the mmorpg bug got me :cry: and I had to rethink that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:07 am
Posts: 118
Candor wrote:
It's funny that they will just drive me to download movies instead of buying them.

And you won't be alone. Ultra-restrictive DRM schemes will do nothing more than drive more people to pirate content, particularly since every new DRM scheme seems to be cracked within days of release. DRM isn't stopping pirates, and it is stopping consumers, so all this is doing is cutting profits for the very people advocating the DRM.

Now, I understand their position. People are stealing their stuff, so they want to put stronger locks in. I get that. But it's not working, and there's no sign that it's ever going to work, so the best option is to invest in the future, and not try to protect the past. There is ample evidence that people will pay for online content, that they will watch commercials during it, that they'll put up with nag screens or whatever you need to do.

But if you make it harder to buy than it is to steal, people will steal it. That's a simple fact.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Vista, XP, 2k, NT, 98se, 95, 3.11, dos
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Seattle, WA
I just realized this is my 22nd year of playing with computers. AutoCAD is now v16? v17? and, was 2, or something similar when the drafter who took CAD classes announced, with reverent awe, that he was inserting a 1 mega-byte memory chip into his IBM compatable.

One more game I plan is to multi-boot (with 3rd party software) several of my old OSes, including DOS and a new toy, linux. I hear that "new" software is available to revive legacy games and applications. I'll test the 100-year guarantee on some old, dusty-boxed software. Maybe, I still have the multi-boot program that stripped sound and a few other apps from starting to play a game that demanded 600k of my 640 in order to run.

For a couple years prior to NT I had the fastest machine in our office; not the most up to date, but it had a broken sound card and released gobs of computing power to an otherwise dog machine. My latest with 2.8 ghz slogs along, crippled by security software, firewalls, snoopers, the latest jimcrackies for AutoCAD/Windows seamless operation, internet, 300% more software than "no-soundcard". I guess it has a good sound card. I don't have speakers. Nobody is allowed to stream music, anyway; or, the internet drags.

At home, I am trapped by the notion that all my expensive computer hardware should at least have a radio, if not TV, HD and a few other things. But what good are they when I turn off the sound to avoid the chirps, beeps, and sirens Windows belches in turettes (sp) fits.

Vista? Is it as fast and simplified as 98? Even DOS? I see new computers and software when I open our refrigerator. It is full of condiments, several flavors of dressing for greens, canned frosting, moldy containers from a month ago. The door barely shuts. The bread is there. I move aside pickles looking for some butter. There's a couple greenish leaves in the core of a slimy head of lettuce. Butter, lettuce, two slices of bread and a frozen pack of shaved, processed meat taste great - except for the excess of sodium and paragraph of alien names with the meat.

I guess I'm not too concerned about Vista.

Bruce in Seattle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 6:45 am
Posts: 66
I think Windows Vista will be huge for silent freaks because it will support hybrid harddrives.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:07 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2005 6:55 am
Posts: 5085
Location: UK
Quote:
But what good are they when I turn off the sound to avoid the chirps, beeps, and sirens Windows belches in turettes (sp) fits.


You can turn off the sound effects in Windows Control Panel.

Quote:
I think Windows Vista will be huge for silent freaks because it will support hybrid harddrives.


I prefer the appellation "silence-oriented consumer" myself :roll: ; so hybrid HDD's won't work on XP computers? The hard drive manufacturers are shooting themselves in the foot by doing that aren't they? After all, hardly anyone has Vista yet.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:49 am
Posts: 3011
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
Well hardly anyone will actually get a hybrid HDD in the near future. It will probably only be used by nutters like us and in high-end laptops to start with..

And yes, the sound defects are annoying. That´s why i killed them with an axe. No, not the deodorant, the sharp metal thing you cut your nails with.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vista, XP, 2k, NT, 98se, 95, 3.11, dos
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:07 am
Posts: 118
hbm55 wrote:
I just realized this is my 22nd year of playing with computers. AutoCAD is now v16? v17? and, was 2, or something similar when the drafter who took CAD classes announced, with reverent awe, that he was inserting a 1 mega-byte memory chip into his IBM compatable.

In primary school, we had PETs, and we used cassette tapes as storage devices. I was considered a big expert because I owned a Commodore 128. Ah, the good old days.

hbm55 wrote:
For a couple years prior to NT I had the fastest machine in our office; not the most up to date, but it had a broken sound card and released gobs of computing power to an otherwise dog machine. My latest with 2.8 ghz slogs along, crippled by security software, firewalls, snoopers, the latest jimcrackies for AutoCAD/Windows seamless operation, internet, 300% more software than "no-soundcard". I guess it has a good sound card. I don't have speakers.

It seems unlikely that your old computer would be faster than your new computer if it had the same security software, firewalls, and so on, broken sound card or not [given how little impact that might have]. It seems like you're comparing a stripped old machine with a loaded new machine, and then being surprised when the old machine was faster. Well, of course it is! If you stripped the new machine, it would /fly,/ but it wouldn't do all the things it's being required to do.

And that's a nice metaphor for Windows. My Commodore 128 booted faster than my new AMD 3200+. But it did 1 percent as many things. The reason Windows 2000 is faster on a P2 450 than XP is because customers keep demanding more and more features, and Microsoft - stupidly, in my opinion, but they're the rich ones and I'm not - keeps cramming this stuff in. But by the same token, applications on Windows 2000 will run /slower/ on a modern machine than the same machine running XP, in many cases. So we can bitch about Microsoft's idea of progress all we want, but the fact is, new Microsoft OSes do more than their predecessors, and often do it faster. The OS itself has more overhead, but it allows you to do more.

hbm55 wrote:
At home, I am trapped by the notion that all my expensive computer hardware should at least have a radio, if not TV, HD and a few other things. But what good are they when I turn off the sound to avoid the chirps, beeps, and sirens Windows belches in turettes (sp) fits.

You're trapping yourself, then, because Windows system sounds can be disabled, or changed to suit your tastes with whatever sounds for whatever events you choose. I personally turn them off, because I get enough visual feedback of events that I don't need audible feedback, and besides, the sound card has to keep switching bit depth to play the Windows samples, which restricts performance when I'm using Reason or Sound Forge.

hbm55 wrote:
Vista? Is it as fast and simplified as 98? Even DOS?

It is faster than both, but much more complex. It also requires more horsepower to be faster; a Pentium 90 will run DOS faster than Vista, but a Pentium EE will run Vista faster than DOS. Oh, and you can't actually do much of anything in DOS, if you haven't noticed.

hbm55 wrote:
I see new computers and software when I open our refrigerator. It is full of condiments, several flavors of dressing for greens, canned frosting, moldy containers from a month ago. The door barely shuts. The bread is there. I move aside pickles looking for some butter. There's a couple greenish leaves in the core of a slimy head of lettuce. Butter, lettuce, two slices of bread and a frozen pack of shaved, processed meat taste great - except for the excess of sodium and paragraph of alien names with the meat.

When my computer-ignorant friends ask me what photo solution to buy, I tell them to find an old, used copy of Photoshop 5 or so. "But, that's not the newest!" they say. I know, I tell them. You don't want the newest. CS2 is for graphics professionals, and it's going to be packed with stuff you don't want, need, or understand. Sure, you could use Elements or whatever stripped version of the modern software you choose, but Photoshop 5 will do everything you need and then some, and won't be unnecessarily complicated.

It sounds to me like you like Windows 98, or 2000. So run it. If you don't want all the sauces and pickles, why have XP? Certainly, don't buy Vista. You have that option. It'll be more difficult, sure, because modern applications won't support your OS sometimes, but that's the price you pay for wanting the old, stripped version. It's like my choice in cars: I drive a 20 year old BMW, because I don't want power seats and airbags and all the weight that comes with them, but BMW doesn't make a modern car - save the M3 CSL I can't buy - that doesn't come with all that crap. The downside is, I have more difficulty buying parts for my car, and modifications for my car, and if I get in an accident, I won't have an airbag, because BMW doesn't "support" my car, and make retrofit airbags for something that's two decades old, the same way Microsoft doesn't release security patches for OSes two generations behind the razor's edge.

You make your choices. If you don't like your choices, well, that's kind of the way the world works. But it seems like a lot of the choices you're making - not having speakers because you don't like Windows sounds, for instance - are based more on ignorance than on informed decision-making.

hbm55 wrote:
I guess I'm not too concerned about Vista.

Me neither. Vista doesn't contain enough improvements to make it a better choice for me than XP SP2. It's crammed with awesome sauces and pickles, and it's pretty as hell, but, well, I'm the kind of guy who drives a 20 year old car because power seat motors weigh too much. That's the choice I make.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 8:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:37 pm
Posts: 30
Location: Seattle, WA
My apologies. I use computers for work, production, and when home think of them in terms of information as well; a no-gas consumption trip to the library. It's been a few years since I played a computer game. Watching a movie on the monitor is something foreign. A rather limited perspective, admittedly.

Bruce in Seattle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:57 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 10:07 am
Posts: 118
hbm55 wrote:
I use computers for work, production, and when home think of them in terms of information as well; a no-gas consumption trip to the library.

Then Vista is /so/ not for you. Heck, XP isn't for you. Low-power, low-consumption computers with "sturdy" OSes are definitely the way to go. Vista has a lot of sweet features, but they're not going to be useful for you - or for me! In a lot of ways, I'd be better off on Windows 2000, too, but given the current state of security on the internet, I run XP...but you'd be hard-pressed to tell, since my installation of XP looks and feels just like Windows 2000 with Active Desktop turned off.

Vista isn't for us, any more than a new Bentley Continental GT is for us. You need a Toyota Hilux Diesel, a strictly utilitarian but well-performing vehicle that'll always get you where you're going with a minimum of fuss and no distracting breakdowns. And I need - unsurprisingly - a 2-decades old BMW, a high-performing but stripped-down way of getting where I'm going, with neither bells nor whistles [okay, save a decent stereo] but just a fast trip with a smile on my face. Luckily, we still have those options...unless you can't find a place to buy Windows 2000, and if that happens, hit me up: I'll always have a copy, because I need a Hilux diesel sometimes, too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: How about 2 choices of hardware and Software?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:02 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 4:41 pm
Posts: 112
It would be nice to have a choice?

With Vista and the Software and Hardware Contolled Platform Alliance otherwise knows as the "trusted" computing platform alliance, we have limited choices.

Microsoft and the Groups they are allied with have convinced Congress and even former President Bill Clinton to sign the DCMA into law a few years back and while changing names... it is the same group that was started officially back in 1999 or before? The same one led by a company that got off really easy in the anti-trust actions taken against it and.. the same group that got in trouble with the ID chip and other things in the past..

A warning about using these software and hardware products would be nice.. the platform has very little to do with DRM, but with the control the platform gives big companies, DRM would be easy to police and control.

The hardware and software behind these new embedded devices will render control of all of our electonic applicances to Microsoft, the Control Alliance or even hackers, if they can get in through a Blue Pill and have the keys to the code figured out.

Just think.. anyone in that position of power, with the master key, from Microsoft down, with this tech can turn off or turn on, or dim almost all of our computer related appliances.

I was thinking.. maybe we should insist on a warning label before buying and.. why not a choice? Maybe some of us don't want our computers, tvs and cell phones possessed with a platform that gives the power to others to switch off or reduce the quality of whenever they want..

This kind of software and hardware is very "untrustworthy"

Think of an emergency, and you not being able to call 911

or.. think of free speech in China and Microsoft already pulling the plug on content and deleting it at the request of the Chinese Government.. won't they do the sam here?

So.. Warning label, repeal of the DCMA and.. choice appear to be good ideas to me.. Thoughts?

Mike


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:44 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:49 am
Posts: 3011
Location: Suomi Finland Perkele
Yeah im all for DRM is bullcrap that needs to be illegal, but what the schmellell can i do? I don´t use online music stores so i can´t stop using them, though i can not start using them, wich i will. I don´t have a HD capaple TV, YET, but what can i do when i have one and want HD content? I can buy HD-DVD or, er, blue-ray, both have DRM or HDCP or whatever. Or online content wich has DRM too.

I supppose the only HD content availble without DRM is movie trailers and p0rn.

Image
I also don´t like the idea that Microsoft, or any other copany for that matter, knows what make of beer i have in the fridge. This is a seriously dangerous world, with crime going down and fear of crime going up! So why not just ban ALL MEDIA right now? Yes.. Let´s start bombing the media.

From next year on they will put a waring label on all alcoholic stuff containing more than 2,8%/vol alcohol here in Finland. Instead of putting nonsense stickers on stuff like tobacco and alcolo that no one actually reads, at least i dont, they, meinging the government, should ban DRM. That´s not likely to happen though, the copyright law got bumf*cked last year and now it´s, just for example, illegal to order stuff from outside the EU if it hasn´t been officially released in the EU. So ordering anime from japan makes you a criminal. I don´t order anime, but if i did i would be a criminal.

I think ill just move to Timbuktu and listen to the radio, if they have that. Eyah.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:23 pm 
Offline
Friend of SPCR

Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2003 6:14 am
Posts: 1235
Location: Finland
nici wrote:
what the schmellell can i do?


Don't use and don't buy any of this DRM shit. If your TV is not huge and your nose is not touching the glass, HD won't make that much of a difference to DVDs. Use Free Software, drop your windows install.

_________________
my general purpose desktop system: HP LP3065 30" LCD 2560x1600 pixels, Q9450, 8GB DDR2 ECC 800MHz, EVGA 460GTX 1GB SC (OC@800MHz/2000MHz), WD Velociraptor 300GB, Samsung 2TB, Gigabyte EX38-DS4, Antec P182b, Corsair VX450, Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme, Scythe S-Flex fan, <90W AC idle, 200W AC gaming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 1:46 pm
Posts: 58
Location: Seattle, Washington
Croddie Said:
Quote:
Candor, you rant as you say at comanies for being badly behaved when by you have a criminal mentality yourself?


Croddie, my response (not that your comment is particularly well backed with any notable thoughts), is this...

nici Said
Quote:
Its...illegal to order stuff from outside the EU if it hasn´t been officially released in the EU. So ordering anime from japan makes you a criminal.


Look. The standard for 'criminal mentality' as you put it, has dropped pretty considerably. To deem many normal activites as criminal (speeding, having a party without a banquet permit, not registering for the draft, buying Cuban cigars, watching movies you haven't paid for) is just silly, not to mention offensive. This pretty much states that we're a society of criminals, only to varying degrees.

Well, there are many legal activities that are criminal, in my opinion. For instance, accepting at face value the the language of right-and-wrong that is handed down from on high and neatly divided into categories of legal and illegal to help those who can't figure it out on their own. Criminal neglect of one's own mind... Now there's a crime.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 44 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group