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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:33 am 
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Location: London
Thomas,

I totally agree that respect is a mutual thing. All I am suggesting is that someone has to start being respectful, and maybe calling the "other guys" names is not the best way to go about establishing that.

Indeed, you do not talk about all engineers; but you do address your adjectives to most of them; silly as it is, I personally am somewhat offended by you saying "majority of engineers act like religious extremists." It has little to do with simple-mindedness and a lot to do with values such as pride in your profession and friendship with your colleagues. I hope that as a salesman, you can understand the value of these somewhat fluid principles.

I will repeat once again: a company with no salesmen may be in trouble. A company with no engineers will be in trouble. I think the balance of power swings a bit into the engineers' favour here, and it may be wise to try and make peace with them, instead of yelling at them and telling them to make peace with you.

Quote:
I do not have my own company yet, but the day that I do, I can guarantee you that if I need engineers then they will be kept on a very short leash until they have proven themselves to be both intelligent and smart.


I would hope that the "evaluation period" will be rather small. Otherwise, I can see a lot of them, especially the more talented ones, leave in frustration to other employers, who will maybe treat them a little better.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:43 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:58 am
Posts: 31
Location: Budapest, Hungary
qviri,

qviri wrote:
It has little to do with simple-mindedness and a lot to do with values such as pride in your profession and friendship with your colleagues. I hope that as a salesman, you can understand the value of these somewhat fluid principles.


You are right; so let's conclude that both engineers and salespeople take pride in their profession (yep, sales is a profession ;)), that both groups of people deserve respect, and that respect is only possible if it is mutual.

BTW, don't worry, the 'evaluation period' will be short and I have a list of engineers with whom I have had good experience (and a lot of collegial friendship and fun), so I already know what they are made of, so if they want to join me then a majority of the engineers I would hire would have an open and positive attitude from the begining :)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:27 am 
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Greetings All,

I hope that this thread has not degenerated to personal sniping. Before anybody posts anymore to this thread, I would ask that you ask yourself these questions:

1. Is my post in direct response to the original thread topic?

2. Am I adding anything to that discussion?

Thank you for your consideration.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:37 am 
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Location: London
Spoilsport. :P

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:52 am 
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Posts: 1371
Thomas-BP2
As Devonavar has said, you are the one that come across as a very arrogant and self-centered person and not the engineers you're trying to fault. And I still think that the reason you have had such bad experience with engineers is because everyone good has left the company you were working at because they didn't want to put up with attitude like yours. I'm not saying you're directly the cause, but maybe you and the management with the same attitude.


Meh... wrote a bunch of stuff, but decided it's best not to post it, so I'll write short version. If I was to guess, you are a stereotypical salesman - a sale no matter what and customer is always right kind of salesman which of course is not always true. You are also a control freak at that. It's clear to me that you also want to completely control the development process and that's a big no-no for a number of reasons. Engineers should be the one developing, and salespeople shouldn't have any say in it. Salespeople sell, engineers develop, you can't have a salesman tell engineer what to do, that would be a complete nightmare because they simply do not have the technical knoweledge. That's why there is clear separation of roles, I'm sure engineers don't come to you with tips on how to sell, so don't tell them how to do their job either. You do your job, they do theirs. I'm guessing what you're looking for (as you have hinted) is a CEO position where you can tell everybody what to do. Well, until you are the CEO, don't, because that's not your job.



NeilBlanchard
Last post, seems to be a waste not to post it since I typed it before your warning... :)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:35 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:23 am
Posts: 1847
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Thomas-BP2 wrote:
Devonavar,

Thank you for your technical evaluation of the form of my post. Do you have anything intelligent and smart to say about my message?


Not really. I don't take issue with your message, it's how you're saying it that bugs me.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:30 pm 
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This is starting to get a bit silly, and really far off topic. :?
(and picking a fight with the mods is NOT generally a good idea Thomas-BP2)

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:37 am 
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Heh....I have even less respect for salesmen now. I started out with an E-mail to a salesman with a complaint about deceptive advertising, and got cursed out for even suggesting such a thing...by the company owner no less. Now I have been bad-mouthed again on SPCR for even suggesting that a salesman may also be a liar, even though common sense proves be correct. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:43 am 
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Location: Budapest, Hungary
I joined the SPCR forum because I have a newfound interest in quiet computing. So far so good, I hope we can agree that my interest is just as authentic and valid as the interest of everybody else who find quiet computing worthwile?

This thread was about Bluefront's approach to promoting truth in advertising. As I am not an engineer I can ask technical questions but not provide technical answers. However, as I have extensive experience in sales and marketing, which is all about communication to promote a cause, a service, or a product, I did (and do) feel qualified to make a positive contribution based on my views, my knowledge, and my professional experience. I hope we can agree, that it should not be seen as offensive if I participate in the discussion based on my background in marketing and sales?

In my contribution to the discussion I presented a different approach to promoting truth in advertising. As I know that most visitors on this site are engineers who do not have experience in sales and marketing, I made an effort to explain the points I presented and the argumentation why I, from my experience in sales and marketing, view things that way I do. I hope we can agree that presenting argumenation and explanation to support a personal point of view is a reasonable approach to any discussion?

I received a couple of sceptical responses that indicated that a couple of posters did not agree, based on two central points in my argumentation. As I read their answers, to me, they indicated that I did not manage to present my point clearly enough, so I elaborated further with argumentation and explanation in my following post. I hope we can agree that a discussion is about exchanging points of view and trying to make the other party understand why we do, say, or think something different rather than a simple exchange of proclamations and drawing lines in the sand?

I know from countless discussions between salespeople and engineers that a lot of the disagreement comes from the fact that engineers have a structured world view where everything is absolute with a few exceptions while salespeople have a relative world view where everything is non-standard with a few exceptions. I presented this fact in a neutral way as I do not see another world view as wrong, just different. I hope we can agree that pointing out the fact that different people have different reference points does not assume or express that one point of reference is better than any other?

Until this point the discussion had been an exchange of points of view with argumentation and not personal attacks, but that changed when I got a response with: "Thank you for the Marketing 101 refresher course Thomas. I think most of us are familiar with the concepts involved." I hope we can agree that most people would find it offensive if somebody insinuates that the skills, experience, and knowledge that make up the core of one's profession is something that any Joe Blow can pick up by reading a book or two?

Now, instead of going ballistic I adressed the other points made, and I specifically included "If you transfer those two differing perceptions of the same thing to discussions then you have the difference between criticism and critique - one is unfavorably critical while the other is supportive and constructive." to point out that "My critique of Bluefront's approach does not mean that I do not recognize his contribution to SPCR, but was suggesting that he can more effectively promote his cause and make it easier to reach his goal." to deflect the conversation from personal attacks towards discussing an issue based on differing points of reference. I hope we can agree, that it is a better approach to try to deflect an attack instead of just responding with a counter-attack?

In the same post I gave a recap of my suggestion to, what, based on my professional experience, could be a better and more effective approach to promoting truth in advertising (a campaign based on selling and marketing a cause!). Combined with my deflection of the personal attack, I attempted to get the aggressive poster's eayes back on the ball. I hope we can agree that trying to re-focus a discussion on the issue of discussion is not agreesive?

The response I got from Bluefront indicated that he did not understand the concept of my suggestion in the way I intended him to understand my suggestion, so I tried to explain it in a different manner in my following message to him. In addition to Bluefront's message, I got two very disrespectful responses which stereotyped me and people in my profession as aggresive hustlers with no understanding of business! I hope we can agree that stereotyping somebody in a very negative way cannot be be called tolerant, respectful, or friendly?

Though my response directed at the two intollerant warriors was not exactly respectful either, I did in fact ask them to respect my area of competence (sales & marketing) just as I respect their area of competence (engineering). I also pointed out, once again, that we are looking at the issues from two different points of view without making any claims as to who is right and who is wrong! I hope we can agree that though I did not turn the other cheek second time around then it is a reasonable request to be respected as a person and as a professional?

From then on things escalated on both sides and in addition to argue for my points of view on the topic of this thread (truth in advertising) I alsa had to argue for my right to have another professional background and my competence in that profession!

At some point, qviri tried to pour oil on the wild waters and I welcomed that to end the personal attacks, but apparently that did not help one bit as there were still a couple of bigots with something to say. :roll:

I am sorry if I ruffled a few feathers, but I cannot accept if you put the blame squarely on me alone!

Now, I am not going to respond to any more personal attacks on me or my profession.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:48 am 
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I think we can let Thomas have the last word here. This discussion is over.


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