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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:02 am 
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Location: Southeast, USA
I have an eMachines (3500+, MSI MB w/ATI on board video, 2x512MB DDR 333 RAM, 2 WD 320GB drives, DVD, ATI X800GT) with that Bestec PSU. It has been fine (albeit not very silent) for over a year. KILL-A-WATT reports ~110W at idle and ~160W spikes under load. Bestec isn't necessarily a noname PSU - it's just cheap. As you can see they don't list the +12v watt/amperage. This does not necessarily mean that it should be discarded but the noise factor might.

luxonis:

[Usual disclaimers about not meaning to insult technical savvy]

I have heard that a CPU with no HSF can fry in as little as 10 seconds - don't know about HSF with fan disconnected. Be very careful...

Smart move assembling outside of the PC case. You don't even need to connect to any drives to get a baseline - just MB, CPU/HSF, RAM, PSU, KBD and monitor. What is the MB resting on (hopefully something non-conductive)? I use the MB anti-static bag or a piece of cardboard. [EDIT: turns out the anti-static bag is a bad idea.] I've become proficient at touching the power jumper pins "just so" with a small screw driver.

I recently removed the NF-M2 from the case it was in and set it up outside and had the exact circumstances as you. Nothing had been removed, added or changed - a touchy little bugger. It was resolved by resetting BIOS - make sure you disconnect the PSU wall socket wire before doing this.

What are the beep sounds from the case "speaker"? On POST, mine beeps once (a D just above middle C on a piano) and then again 1-2 seconds later (a little higher at A). Only one beep occurs after save/exit from BIOS or ctrl-alt-delete.

Does the LED on the monitor change - mine goes from amber to green about 1 second after the second beep.

Try a monitor with an HDI connector. The VGA connector header is pretty weak on mine. I felt I had to hold it from the back while attaching the VGA cable.

With the HD and the HD case LED wire attached, does it light after ~10 seconds, can you hear it seeking? This would indicate a purely monitor/connector problem.

There are two LEDs on the MB. A red one between the 24pin power connector and AUXfan1 which lights when the PSU switch is turned on and a green one between the 24pin power connector and IDE1 that lights immediately after the case power switch is hit.

Is the 3pin HSF fan connected to CPUfan or SYSfan? It will be running at full speed if CPUfan and therefore the HS won't even get warm. SYSfan can be configured in BIOS to control the HSF (of course, you're not there yet).

Have you tried the parts (at least RAM) individually in another known good PC? This will give peace of mind (and force you to have at least two similar PCs). It would be good to know that a PC can handle just one of these RAM modules. I assume two have been tried.

I read somewhere that damage (symptoms? irreparable?) can occur if the CMOS jumper is left in reset position on power up. Other MBs also require battery removable when resetting CMOS whereas the NF-M2 does not - according to the manual.


Last edited by seemingly.random on Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:15 am 
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Quote:
What is the MB resting on (hopefully something non-conductive)? I use the MB anti-static bag or a piece of cardboard


The outside of the MB bag is actually conductive, so not the best material; cardboard or wood is good.

Quote:
I have heard that a CPU with no HSF can fry in as little as 10 seconds


A Prescott maybe, X2's are a tad cooler. All we want to know is if the CPU is getting power, this should only take a couple of seconds with the fan disconnected.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:26 am 
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Thanks jaganath - I had no idea about the outside of the bag. That might explain some past difficulties.

MC FLMJIG:

I've been using Corsair 520 PSUs for silence and modular cabling - now $119 at NewEgg. Any suggestions on slightly less powerful but still quiet and modular PSUs? I've heard lots of horror stories about Antec's.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 5:54 am 
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Quote:
Any suggestions on slightly less powerful but still quiet and modular PSUs?


Enermax Liberty 400W? Probably needs a fan swap to be truly quiet tho.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:14 am 
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I've never been inside a PSU. What kind of fans are in them - are they like case fans? If so, what replacement fan is recommended?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:35 am 
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Maybe the Liberty is quiet enough for you, listen to the recordings in the review, PSU fans are normally ball-bearing for long life, sleeve fans are quieter but shorter life, Globalwin NCB 120mm is a good compromise.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:04 am 
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Hard to tell if it's an apples to apples comparison, but the Corsair sounds quieter. I was just looking for a less expensive, slightly lower powered equivalent - don't mind spending $20-30 more for the Corsair.

It seems that the exhaust measurement tests are as or more important. I know case sound is complex - the acoustics and pressure and all. And most importantly is the quality of the sound. A seeking disk drive doesn't bother me at all and is louder than many fans. MikeC had a great article about the equivalence of 1 fan running at 12v and two fans running at 6v. It seems better (quieter) to load up a case with more, slower fans.

The Globalwin doesn't appear in U.S. retail stores. Is it a case fan or is more sophisticated?

Interesting about the characteristics of the two types of bearings. I think the Adda's in my Lian Li are sleeve. I just happen to have a couple of ball bearing Scythe's on order - I'll compare the two.

With the Artic Cooling CPU fan, I'm hoping it will blow enough air out the back of the case that there won't be a need for a back fan (probably too good to be true). I'm also looking at temperature sensors that can be moved around inside the case to reveal the hot spots.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:41 am 
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jaganath wrote:
MC, a quiet overclocker is enough of a rarity round here that we can't afford to lose too many. :wink: Sometimes on SPCR there is a tendency to dismiss the importance of performance, because it makes silencing so much easier. However there is very little point having a silent VIA 500Mhz CPU, because it can't do anything more demanding than file serving. So I hope I have convinced you to stay. 8)


:wink:

Thanks

Np Nutball


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:54 am 
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seemingly.random wrote:
Hard to tell if it's an apples to apples comparison, but the Corsair sounds quieter. I was just looking for a less expensive, slightly lower powered equivalent - don't mind spending $20-30 more for the Corsair.


The Corsair is probbaly quieter becasue it MAY be more efficient. Shame it's not too effecient. You also don't want to spend 120 on a PSU that's overkill... unless you can no doubt about it afford it.

The Liberty' are supposed to be quiet... never had one.

Fan swapping is a great idea... if you don't mind losing warranty. :wink:

Also what might sound low to one might be high to another. I had an Xclio 500 goodpower and It drove me nuts while others thought it was pretty silent sounding.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6817171015
Should be good for MOST low end systems around here. For the price you can fan swap and lose warranty... Outside of this you can normally get PSU's chepaer than newegg.


Jag how is that global vs a yate loon in cfm and dba? Please?



The next sytem I'm building I will be using the same Abit Nview with 1 or 2 hd's, 1 optical and maybe 2-3 fans... i'll leave myself open to a good vid card down the road. I'm buyingthe antec 2400 and will see how good psu is... me thinks it may be a tad to high sounding for me but we'll see.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:49 am 
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Quote:
Jag how is that global vs a yate loon in cfm and dba? Please?


Official specs:

YL D12SL12= 1350rpm 47CFM 28dB(A)

GWin NCB= 1300rpm 42CFM 19dB(A)

Personally I think in the real world they are virtually identical, the only difference is the ceramic bearing in the Globalwin.

Here is a review comparing Globalwin w/ Sharkoon SE and Noctua NF:

Madshrimps Fan Roundup

As you can see, the Globalwin actually beats the Nocuta 1200 at 5,7 and 12V.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:50 am 
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Don't understand the meaning of: shame it's not too efficient. Is there such a thing as too efficient? or do you mean they're not very efficient - like the new 85+ Seasonics?

Spending 25-35% more than needed on a computer part sounds pretty stupid. But then, you could spend $1200 on a great computer that you can't stand to be around or $1230 on one that's great and agreeable to the ears.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:12 am 
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One other thing about overkill PSU - I've been waiting for a decent GPU and may have found it in the 8800GTX. It seems that 520W would be just right. I don't think there will be a problem with this in the NF-M2. The real problem is rationalizing the expenditure.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 11:43 am 
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seemingly.random wrote:
Don't understand the meaning of: shame it's not too efficient. Is there such a thing as too efficient? or do you mean they're not very efficient - like the new 85+ Seasonics?


Yea. They aren't efficient compared to some 80%+ Psu's out there. But that one comes pretty cheap. It also really factors in i u leave the pc on all the time. I dont.

BTW Depending on your case you may have space issues with the GTX. DO UR HW.



19dba sounds insane... I've used Loons for a while and trying to venture out finding newer fans has not been cost effective and I always go back to the loons. thanks for the lonk.

Is it me or do the orange and black loons sounds MUCH quieter than the black ones? Never tried the pure orange ones.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:55 pm 
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Hello, I've bought Xilence 550 W PSU (31 A on +12 V) and the mobo is still getting me no post, no bios, no screen, and shutdown after 5 seconds ! What to do ! I tired of trying solutions that doesn't work. :oops: :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:16 pm 
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CLEAR CMOS...

Try the jumper and if that does not work unplug the power, after flipping switch, and then take battery out. Leave for a few minutes. Then try again.

If that doesn't work then try piece by piece. All you need is the board cpu power and memory.

If it dosn't work like that try your pieces at a friends house, if you have friends :wink: (jk), or have them bring over to your house. I believe you will figure out like this best.

I dont know Xilence. Are those the guys that rate their fans as SUPER low but really aren't? Anyway, I don't know if I could trust a Xilence PSU. Regardless, try the pieces on other components if you have that capability.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:25 pm 
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Quote:
the mobo is still getting me no post, no bios, no screen, and shutdown after 5 seconds !


No POST makes me suspect either CPU or RAM; follow this troubleshooting guide:

http://www.buildyourown.org.uk/pc-build ... oting/#a13

http://www.buildyourown.org.uk/pc-artic ... ting-plus/


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:03 pm 
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luxonis wrote:
Hello, I've bought Xilence 550 W PSU (31 A on +12 V) and the mobo is still getting me no post, no bios, no screen, and shutdown after 5 seconds ! What to do ! I tired of trying solutions that doesn't work. :oops: :roll:


My guess, after verifying the CPU and RAM, is that it will be the MB. Although I like this MB, mine is kind of flaky - inconsistent fan speeds after rebooting with no change in the ambient temp, sometimes it beeps on POST sometimes it doesn't, problems with USB keyboard, the need to reset CMOS if the MB is moved... I'm going to return it for a replacement.

Is the new PSU any quieter then the Bestec? If not, I'd return it if you can before it shows any wear assuming you don't plan on a big GPU.

I received the ASUS M2NPV-VM and although it has different features (s-video output, etc.), it runs hotter than the ABIT - the ASUS chipset HS and video chip get too hot to touch. The CPU fan doesn't run as fast as the ABIT at idle (1000 vs 1700). The ABIT seems to have better fan control. I'm going to try the Artic PWM HSF on both.

I'm having a problem with another system that I've never seen before if anyone wants to comment - system POSTs and then hangs with "hit DEL to enter BIOS". I recently swapped CPUs - CPU and RAM have been verified in another system, MB components start to get warm as usual, CMOS has been reset.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:31 pm 
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I know I'm a first time poster, but I've tried three other boards now for help and you all sound like you are great at diagnosing problems.

Here's the system setup:

ABit nf-m2
AMD Athlon 64 3800+ AM2 (Stock Heatsink - May order a Arctic Freezer 64 Pro)
Crucial Ballistix DDR2-6400 (2x512)
EVGA 7900gs KO
Mad Dog DVD-ROM Drive
NEC 3550A DVD-RW Drive
Seagate 7200RPM 160GB SATA
Seagate 7200RPM 200GB IDE

This is all powered by a Cooler Master 450watt ACLY power supply. Right now all of the components are in a Antec Lanboy, but a Cooler Master Centurion 5 (with a 380w power supply included) is coming tomorrow. The monitor is a Hanns-G HC194D 19" LCD.

When I first purchased the board, I was not planning on getting a video card for a while - but a great deal on a PNY 7900gs card changed that. I plugged the card in, it would run games and basic apps without any problems. The problem came when I started to run video files - wmv files would run fine, but avi, mpeg, mp4, and even DVD's caused the system to lockup quickly. I'd have to reboot the computer when it crashed. After two weeks, I returned the graphics card for another of the same model, and it did the same thing. So, after getting rid of the card, I started to run some of these files with the onboard video again.

Frustratingly, the onboard video started to lock up. Ordered an EVGA 7900gs, and installed it recently. It worked for a while - and then locked up.

According to the Abit EQ program, my temps are this when idle:
CPU: 34 C
SYS: 28 C
PWM: 37 C

Speedfan has this reading:
System: 28C
CPU: 35C
AUX: 38C
HD0: 30C
Temp1: 34C
Core: 32C

NVidia's GPU is around 48 C.

Everything looks good temp wise, at least to me. The power supply, from what I can tell of it, looks like it has more than enough juice and amps on the 12v rails (18A on the first, 16A on the second) to handle the video card.

I installed both the newest and older drivers for the video card (I'm currently running on ForceWare 91.28) and it's locked up each time.

So, what gives? I've tried every solution in the book to cool the thing down, but that doesn't seem to be the problem. Do I need to RMA the board and get a new one at this point?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:36 pm 
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Pop me into the list of overclocking nuts who want to stay quiet!

Image

3 fans
2 * 120mm
1 * 92mm

- PSU has a 120mm fan which is the yate loon 0.3A BB fan. It's not toooo obtrusive with the fan controller on this PSU but it could be better.

- Case comes with a 120mm fan which is rather noisy. It runs around 800rpm right now but its clearly audible

- The largest noisemaker in my case is the 92mm zalman fan. It doesn't sit flush with the XP90, so I've used some scotch tape to duct all the airflow into the sink.

Air comes in through the right rear side where the 120mm fan blows inward, gets sucked into the xp90 with the zalman fan, and exits towards the left side with the PSU.



- Looking for a suggestion.. do you guys think a Zalman 7700 / 7000 would do me better noisewise / cooling?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 5:18 am 
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DGibFen wrote:
The problem came when I started to run video files - wmv files would run fine, but avi, mpeg, mp4, and even DVD's caused the system to lockup quickly.

So, what gives? I've tried every solution in the book to cool the thing down, but that doesn't seem to be the problem. Do I need to RMA the board and get a new one at this point?


Hm. Before RMAing anything I'd try to rule out software problems if possible. For example, I've seen problems with MS mediaplayer / codecs on a W2K machine that worked perfectly -- until some combination of MS updates and a new codec made it lock up playing avis. Symptoms really looked like a hardware issue (freezes under load) but weren't really.

Maybe try http://www.mplayerhq.hu or some live Linux distro (eg Knoppix: http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html).


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:49 am 
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DGibFen wrote:
I've tried three other boards now for help and you all sound like you are great at diagnosing problems.

I believe the 512 are like the gig sticks. Make sure the memory is getting 2.2V. After that - SuperPI @ 32m and then call in the morning :wink:
You should try this as well if the above doesn't work
MC FLMJIG wrote:
CLEAR CMOS...
Try the jumper and if that does not work unplug the power, after flipping switch, and then take battery out. Leave for a few minutes. Then try again.

If that doesn't work then try piece by piece. All you need is the board cpu power and memory.

If it dosn't work like that try your pieces at a friends house, if you have friends :wink: (jk), or have them bring over to your house. I believe you will figure out like this best.


-------

[F]bernZ wrote:
Pop me into the list of overclocking nuts who want to stay quiet!

- Looking for a suggestion.. do you guys think a Zalman 7700 / 7000 would do me better noisewise / cooling?

:shock: execution halted and it's at 56?!?!?!?!

7700 will not work on an AM2.

What case do you have? It will make easir to reco a heatsink. Budget?

BTW Nice OC!!!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:23 am 
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Oh, don't worry. 56 was RIGHT after I terminated it. It idles around 36. :lol:

Edit:
Budget doesn't really matter, but in terms of height I'm limited under 75mm. Its an Ultra Microfly.

Edit2:

Actually, I've seen someone slap a 7700 on AM2. It requires the use of the Thermalright AM2 revB adapter. I know it'll work, but I have to cut off the 3 lugs on each side for the adaptor and shave the lugs flat.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:35 am 
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Sneaky wrote:
does anyone know if a Thermalright XP-120 will be able to fit on this board in any shape way or form with the AM2 RM (rev. B)?


if someone can figure out how to make it work, please let me know - I'm just assuming that it won't fit due to the tall caps right next to the socket:
(given that heatpipes are pointed to caps)


My friend has fit an XP120 both ways - heatpipes towards the caps and pipes towards the RAM. Caps can tilt a bit, don't worry. Yes, it'll work w/ the AM2 adapter.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 9:46 am 
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[F]bernZ wrote:
Oh, don't worry. 56 was RIGHT after I terminated it. It idles around 36. :lol:

Edit:
Budget doesn't really matter, but in terms of height I'm limited under 75mm. Its an Ultra Microfly.

Edit2:

Actually, I've seen someone slap a 7700 on AM2. It requires the use of the Thermalright AM2 revB adapter. I know it'll work, but I have to cut off the 3 lugs on each side for the adaptor and shave the lugs flat.


A Zalman 7700??? I would love to see that. I can't see how it's possible.

The Zalman has clips in the middle. How would you tighten them. Please let us see pics!

Zalman has an 8000 series but you can't swap the fan like the 7700 series.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 4:54 pm 
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I can't remember where the link is, but it is from HTPC.

-- Basically, it involves shaving the TR bracket so the lugs don't extend upwards. Then, you use the mounting system for the P4 socket [478] and go from there. Will post the link when I find it.

There you go!

http://www.htpcnews.com/forums/index.ph ... =24861&hl=


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2006 6:23 pm 
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Very nice... Will be pricey but that is probabaly the best small heatsink there is... You can then mod it with a better fan (7700)


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:32 am 
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MC FLMJIG wrote:
DGibFen wrote:
I've tried three other boards now for help and you all sound like you are great at diagnosing problems.

I believe the 512 are like the gig sticks. Make sure the memory is getting 2.2V. After that - SuperPI @ 32m and then call in the morning :wink:
You should try this as well if the above doesn't work


Alright, after reading some information on how to do such - I've never attempted a thing before - I used CPU-Z to check the RAM timings, which were 5-5-5-24-2T. I went into the BIOS and changed the RAM voltage to 2.1v, and then changed the ram timings to 4-4-4-12-2T.

Hopefully this will fix the problem.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 9:30 am 
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Did you ever try running memtest86+ on your system? It'll try to isolate for system errors. You can burn an ISO version onto a CD [and then restart and boot off the CD] - it'll run itself. If you see any errors, you know something is wrong with your RAM.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:32 pm 
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[F]bernZ wrote:
Did you ever try running memtest86+ on your system? It'll try to isolate for system errors. You can burn an ISO version onto a CD [and then restart and boot off the CD] - it'll run itself. If you see any errors, you know something is wrong with your RAM.


Yes, I ran it for an hour an a half - no errors occurred. However, I am having problems with SuperPi, as it produces an error after 50 seconds or so.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2006 3:09 pm 
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What is your CPU voltage at ?


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