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 Post subject: WHS11 server upgrade - i5 and MSI H97M ECO
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:37 am 
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I recently got hold of a gamer machine, so I could gut the MSI p67a-C45(b3), i5 2500 and DDr3 memory and sell of the rest. It was intended to be a low cost upgrade to a quad core (so I could see movies in MB3 on the iPad). Unfortunately I have discovered that my fractal design does not support full atx boards. So either I need a new mobo or I can sell the gamer of and get new mobo/CPU/ram.

Only thing is that the cheapest quad core i3 3350p here in DK is rather expensive at 1250 DKK, plus the price of a mobo (from 300 DKK and up) and memory is 600 DKK for the 8 gb, so 1850 DKK plus the mobo.

Compared to that I paid 2600 DKK for the gaming rig, mobo the same as above, but I can sell of the parts I don't need, for say 1000 DKK. So that's 1600 for the i5-2500, plus the mobo (being equal in the two cases).

What to do?
And what mobo/chipset should I look for? MATX and preferebly low energy with 5-6 of mor sata connectors.

It run 24/7 with 10 HDs, so energy consumption is a concern.

The gamer PC came with a corsair cx500 psu and my server have a chill innovation 500 psu. What to keep of the two?

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Last edited by Schroinx on Thu Sep 18, 2014 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:34 am 
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I am doing some more research. Going with socket 1150 I can get a i5 4440 and a H81 or B85 based mobo for about the same price as the I3 1155.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 11:54 am 
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Schroinx wrote:
a H81 or B85 based mobo

Which is the disk drives configuration?

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:03 pm 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
Schroinx wrote:
a H81 or B85 based mobo

Which is the disk drives configuration?


2 system discs and 4 software mirrored 4tb drives /8hds. Four connected to a highpoint sata controller and six to the mobo.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:35 pm 
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Schroinx wrote:
2 system discs and 4 software mirrored 4tb drives /8hds. Four connected to a highpoint sata controller and six to the mobo.

Then as far as I know you don't need the fully functional Intel fake RAID controller of higher level H and Z chipset, and the 81/85 may work: you have just to check whether the higher DPC latency of the 8-series chipset may affect Media Browser 3 streaming, or not.
About this latter unfortunately it's not my preferred subject, so I can't help.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:32 pm 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
you have just to check whether the higher DPC latency of the 8-series chipset may affect Media Browser 3 streaming, or not.
About this latter unfortunately it's not my preferred subject, so I can't help.

If you can go with H chipset and if you want to avoid any potential DPC latency issues, then take a look at the H97 mobo's. They can be reasonably priced (at least here in the US). Some examples.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:15 pm 
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Schroinx wrote:
It run 24/7 with 10 HDs, so energy consumption is a concern.
I would suggest ASRock H97M Pro4 LGA 1150 Intel H97 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard or the new MSI motherboards that are being market as ECO, MSI H97M Eco LGA 1150 Intel H97 HDMI SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 6:39 am 
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Thanks for mentioning the latency issues and for the suggestions.

I think I'll go with the MSI h97m Eco board.

Should I chose a i5 K/S/T CPU and which one? Are the S and T parts lower power only or also lower performance?

4430
4440
4460
4460S
4460T
4430S
4440S
4570S
4590T
4590S

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:04 am 
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Schroinx wrote:
Should I chose a i5 K/S/T CPU and which one? Are the S and T parts lower power only or also lower performance?
S and T have been proven on the past to be factory nerfed cpus, when you manually underclock/undervolt to those levels you get the same consumption and temps, so its just a factory crippled cpus. I do think there are spots of this cpus, like barebones of small pcs, for example im eyeballing a Zotac ZBOX-IQ01-U for a my brother, to build something similar to my camera server, so placing fully fledged i7 there would melt, the factory crippled i7 4770T seems like a good option for this special case design.

Now remember all haswell cpus under windows with power management on balance, will allow the cpu to downclock on idle to 800mhz, the consumptions here are very similar, so the difference is on the top clocks and turbo. Personally i would go with highest clocked i can buy for the above reason. But there are scenarios where let say you don't want to mess with anything and you will have limiting cooling.... then a factory crippled could be a good option. The advantage of higher top clocked is that the cpu will be more capable into finishing a task or more capable of handling more tasks, like multiple streams at the same time, etc, and return faster to idle state, this comes at the cost of higher temps, power no, as it might draw more for shorter time, but other cpus will draw less for a longer time, so in here it should even out over time.

Go by your budget and how much cpu power you need for the tasks the server will fulfill. If there is no encoding or transcoding on the fly, even a celeron can handle file management on windows server, but if you going to use something like PLEX to stream to mobile, then a beefier cpu will allow you to do multiple streams and backups at the same time, etc.

Just as a last warning, the MSI ECO is a line that i want to test out, for what MSI is marketing on it, but we haven't really seen test or reviews of them, so its something that we don't know if they are really performing as MSI is marketing. AsRock on the other hand... with other boards i seen very good results like vitconik buils (but they are mini itx with picoPSU), but overall im still very interested on the MSI... but with no software, just to see how it idle compared to similar motherboards. Its a shame MSI didn't do a mini ITX Eco motherboard.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:13 am 
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It means going with the I5-4590 as it is the new Haswell refresh. The standard and the S and T parts are priced similar. The S version has the same turbo speed as the standard version, but uses less power in standard config. The T part is a bit of a mystery to me. I can undervolt in bios if I have to, thou stability is a concern, as I do not want to find data errors on the disks due to calculation errors in the CPU. The disks are software mirrors. My prior experience with an old AMD 4850e part was not too good in this respect, so I prefer to have a fall back option, should the undervolting not work. Can the S part be undervoltetet further than the factory settings, or only the standard part?

It will reside in a fractal arc midi case with ten disk drives and a kotetsu CPU cooler. Ambient a bit high on 25-30 degrees depending on season.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:49 am 
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http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/di ... 4670t.html

Interesting. I guess that means going with tid standard version.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:22 am 
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Schroinx wrote:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/display/core-i5-4670s-4670t.html

Interesting. I guess that means going with tid standard version.
Thats a pretty good article, ill be sure to quote it from now on. Personally i would go with 4690, the Kotestu should be really good at handling the quad core, usually... but depending on each needs, the servers maintain a lot of their time at idle until a task is q, so in essence all the quads you are considering will downclock to same 800mhz, resulting on very similar idle consumptions, the difference will happen when there is a task to be done, where the 4690 will draw more power but will also finish the task faster, returning to idle faster than all the other CPUs. Either way its your call, and your wallet, but i can asure you any of the cpu you are considering are very capable for a server, even transcoding. If you are not transcoding or multiple VMs.... then i would consider going into a Celeron/Pentium, and save a ton of money on the CPU.

Good luck,

PS, if you go with the ECO, please post your thoughts later on, im really interested on feedback those motherboards.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:07 pm 
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This is how it ends up.

I5-4590
MSI h95m Eco
Crucial ballistic sport 2x4 gb ddr3 cl9 1600mhz
Total 2560 DKK

I have been quite satisfied with the 4850e, but it is not good with transcoding, and I really want to have access to the movies on the server, from my iPad. But then transcoding is needed. That's is the main driver for this upgrade.

Thanks for input and advice. I'll post some on the Eco board later.

I still wonder if I should keep the corsair cx500 psu or the chill innovations 500 psu or maybe getting a new seasonic of some kind.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:42 pm 
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Looks like the i5 will be ~5x faster than the 4850e for transcoding.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:00 pm 
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Schroinx wrote:
I still wonder if I should keep the corsair cx500 psu or the chill innovations 500 psu or maybe getting a new seasonic of some kind.

I don't know the Chill unit, and so the vast majority of SPCR readers (current Chill lineup shows a 450W and a 520W model: are they similarly specced?). We also don't know even which release of the CX-500 you have, and we don't know since how many years those PSUs are in service.

Broadly speaking the bigger brother SPCR reviewed, the 2009 CP-700M, well, it wasn't that bad, even better, it was pretty quiet up to 250W, probably far more than your expected power draw, with the fan spinning between 650rpm and 680rpm: so, whether your 500W unit were very similar, then it could be a good foundation for a pretty quiet server, but that's just a not educated guess.

On the other hand, the CX500 isn't particularly quiet, but either not that noisy: at ambient temperature latest iteration has a fan which spins at a minimum of about 750rpm, then gently ramp up to around 900rpm up to about 300W, from where the fan profile become more aggressive.

The most odd fact is that YOU have both the units in your hands, so why DON'T YOU tell us how they sound (at least, subjectively)?

Both look like decently built units (to be fair, the CX is decently build while often Chill PSUs are decently build, so that your actual mileage may vary), both should exhibit decent electrical performances (to be fair, the CX for sure, the Chill unit is expected to, as the bigger 700W brother was a 50°C rated unit), but those are more suppositions than facts.

But we also don't know your enclosure and relevant PSU mounting, we don't know which hard drives (if they are pure 12V ones or draw some 5V power), so that definitely how can we advice you?

About Seasonics, I think they're not that good nowadays, particularly noise wise: nonetheless most of them are fairly decent performing PSUs.
Again, even for a brand new PSU, probably you should clarify details and boundary conditions (what case, which hard drives, what budget) in order to get a reasoned and therefore a meaningful advice.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:18 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Looks like the i5 will be ~5x faster than the 4850e for transcoding.


I was thinking it would be fast enough to serve two steams to iPad and two not-transcoded steams to htpcs. Maybe that is wishful thinking, but one iPad steam and one htpc stream will do it. But most of the time it will be ideling.

And as far as I understand, the Broadwell generation will also be compatible with the h97/1050 motherboards. Thou Intel has a tendency to make new sockets again and again, so I remain skeptical till I see otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:33 pm 
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Qfs,

Good point. I'll try and listen to them both. I was thinking of getting a seasonic with passive cooling or low noise, depending on price and efficiency. But if there are better alternatives I'd like to hear them.

Where to find info on the hard drives? Is there a general ruled of thumb, or do I need to look at the specs for each model?
I have Seagates, Samsungs and WDs, all above 1-4TBs.
The case is a fractal design define mini.
http://www.fractal-design.com/home/prod ... efine-mini

Say the drives uses 7W each, making it 70W in worst case and the mobo 20W and the new CPU 85W and rounded up, that is 200w, so a 300w should do?

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:38 pm 
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Schroinx wrote:
Good point. I'll try and listen to them both.

I would recommed to use the OCCT PSU test, to assess the load noise level, in order to log some voltages data (even if they're not that reliable), with the PSUs mounted in the FD case, and all the panels closed, in order to simulate a sort of "real world scenario".
Pairing a power meter (like a Kill-A-Watt) would be a very nice and useful tool, if you can have one.


Schroinx wrote:
I was thinking of getting a seasonic with passive cooling or low noise, depending on price and efficiency. But if there are better alternatives I'd like to hear them.

Well, please take note that's my own very personal opinion.
I don't like that much current fanned XM3/XP3 (X-series/Platinum) Seasonics, and F3 (G-series and derivatives) are worse, noise-wise.
Their fanless units are better, but QC at Seasonic doesn't seem at their best, currently: I was told from a reputable source they experienced RMA for coil-whine with a ratio in excess of 10% (latest example on SPCR), so whether it might be a good choice, you have to carefully pick your seller (they have to be known to make no objections to any customer request, as at worst you might be forced to RMA a PSU even more than two times).

About alternatives, I think there's plenty of options, but you should give us some links to what is available in Denmark nowadays, even because local pricing may vary a lot.


Schroinx wrote:
Where to find info on the hard drives? Is there a general ruled of thumb, or do I need to look at the specs for each model?
I have Seagates, Samsungs and WDs, all above 1-4TBs.

It would be better to pick technical docs from manufacturers.
Probably the most important data to correctly size the PSU is their maximum current draw at spin up. As a rule of thumb you could consider about 2A of current draw from the 12V rails for each 12V 5400rpm drive (like a WD Red/Green), but there are drives which draw current even from the 5V rail.


Schroinx wrote:
Say the drives uses 7W each, making it 70W in worst case and the mobo 20W and the new CPU 85W and rounded up, that is 200w, so a 300w should do?

Set aside the spin up issue (which controller do you use?), IMVHO you shouldn't draw much more than around 130-150W DC under a severe load (not benchmark/stress testing), and on average I'd expect noticeably less. I assume your drives are 5400rpm desktop ones.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:05 am 
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Happy days. I have found these sata 6 gb locking cables at a reasonable price in Germany, so I will be ordering 20 for 11eur. I have had issues with poor cable connections, but buying ten is pricey here in dk, where the cheapest sata locking cable is 3eur for one. It's angled in one end, but that is okay I guess.

[url]http://www.amazon.de/Wentronic-S-ATA-Kabel-L-Type-Stück/[/url]

Amazon.de also has a kill-a-watt like product for 15eur. Nice.

Also I might get my hand on a seasonic x-400 80platinium fanless second hand. They are quite pricy and there does not seem to be many options in terms of alternatives in the fanless high-efficiency department.

The memory, mobo and CPU should arrive today.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:22 am 
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Abula wrote:
PS, if you go with the ECO, please post your thoughts later on, im really interested on feedback those motherboards.


It has arrived and is up and running on the table. I haven't played much with it yet, but it does seem good for the server, as sound and gpu can be disabled along with the PCI slot. Unfortunately I cannot measure how much power it uses. The bios is a bit odd, but I guess that is mostly me not having seen many newer mobos. Anyhow it works. The CPU 4 wire fan works fine, but the 4 wire for the system is different in pinout. Strange. And then there is a 3 wire sys fan 2. I have two system fans I would like to run together, but I am not sure how to go about it. I'll play more with the bios. Fan control is good in my opinion and controlled by bios, so not throug windows. I wonder what software to use to monitor it with. The CPU idles at 35 degrees in bios. Looking forward to see it in windows with prime95.
The intel i218-v sucks as it is not supported by WHS11, so I had to hack the driver making it believe it was the i218-LM :-P updating the driver with the MSI cd afterwards did not correct the issue. I'll try and see if I can hack it to become a -V.

I have changed settings in bios after this (no OC'ing), thou the board is said to be setup in the most efficient way.
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/di ... ing_2.html

Now comes the shitty part, as I have to move my mirrored disks, iTunes and mediabrowser 3.

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:31 am 
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Schroinx wrote:
I wonder what software to use to monitor it with.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/SpeedFan

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:05 pm 
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quest_for_silence wrote:
Schroinx wrote:
I wonder what software to use to monitor it with.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/SpeedFan


Thx. There is also a MSI utility I'll check out: Command Center.

The manual states the fan headers support Smart Fan Control, whatever that is. Sysfan1 4 pins:
1 gnd
2 speed control
3 sense
4 NC (?)

Sysfan2:
1 gnd
2 12v
3 no use

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 Post subject: Re: WHS11 server with MB3 what hardware?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:22 pm 
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Personally i dont like msi control center, but i do like a lot msi bios for controlling the fans.

Now for monitoring, on my whs2011 i been using hwmonitor, it monitoprs all my fan arps, core temps, some hdd temps (here depends how you connecting them). Overall it does enough to what i need.

Sorry to hear about the lan not bieng reconized, what i did on a friends whs2011 that had a 217V, is to use the windos7 drivers and it worked fine.

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