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 Post subject: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of CPUs
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 3:32 am 
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Location: Perth, Australia
Hi everyone,

I'm looking to buy a new CPU, but I want to select one that isn't going to generate more heat than my current CPU. This is because I'm planning on keeping my current case, fan configuration and heat-sink.

My current CPU is an AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Socket 939 "Manchester" (dual-core, 90 nm) with a TDP of 89 W.

The CPU I'm thinking of buying is an Intel Core i5-4590 Socket 1150 "Haswell-DT" (quad-core, 22 nm) with a TDP of 84 W.

I'm assuming the rated TDP alone isn't a good point of comparison, as its not specific to the CPU in question. But aside from TDP I'm not really sure how else to compare them. I've done a bit of googling but haven't found anything conclusive.

If anyone could offer any advice on what factors I should be looking for here, it would be greatly appreciated.


Last edited by sipitai on Tue May 27, 2014 6:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 5:13 am 
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You'll easily come under the 89W of the Athlon 64 but you are correct, the TDP is not exact for an individual model and is more of a bracket which covers multiple models.

What I would first ask is what do you intend to use the system for and how much power do you need more than what you have now? Is a quad core CPU really relevant to your applications? If not, save money, electricity and noise by going for a lower power CPU. You can assume that power consumption (and therefore heat) is proportional to frequency and proportional to voltage squared (for the same design) so there is a point for settling for a slower design or applying undervolting and underclocking.

The second thing is, why do you want to keep your case, fans and heatsink? They're all old by now and in terms of silence, it is highly likely that something far quieter is available.

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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Sun May 25, 2014 8:20 am 
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Also, power management has come a long way since Manchester's release.
- CPUs have additional power states, adjust their voltage and frequency on the fly based on load. So, even if the two CPUs listed have the same max load power use, the Haswell chip will use far less power over time.
- Motherboard VRM circuitry is more efficient.
- motherboard components are more efficient. Of course, newer boards tend to stuff more features onto them.

So, don't sweat the TDP.

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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:24 pm 
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Location: Perth, Australia
Ok cool. So there's no way I'll run into cooling issues with the new CPU, if everything is fine with my current CPU?

I'll be using the PC for work, gaming and watching video, work being web development - so Photoshop, web server, multiple web browsers (with lots of tabs open). I'll be using it quite a bit, so I'd like as much processing power as possible, stopping short of the point where it creates cooling issues with my current set up. The closer I can get to that point the better really.

The reasons why I want to keep my current case, fan configuration (I'll be replacing the fans themselves though) and heat-sink are - money - it should save me maybe ~$200 or so - and sentimentality (haha) - I built the case myself and would like to continue using it if possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 10:44 pm 
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What case, CPU heatsink and fans are you planning, and specially how do you want to control the fans? all this is important into choosing the motherboard.

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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Mon May 26, 2014 11:52 pm 
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sipitai wrote:
I built the case myself and would like to continue using it if possible.


Is it a DIY enclosure?

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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 5:08 am 
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Yeah, what is the CPU cooler and is it compatible with socket 1150/1155/1156?

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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 6:27 am 
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Location: Perth, Australia
Its a DIY case yeah - I've included a sketch below.

The heat-sink is the Scythe NCU-2005. It comes with a socket 775 mounting kit, which can be modified to work with socket 1150.

I'm yet to select the fans, but they'll be 2 x 120mm fans. In my current system I connect both fans to the MB CPU fan header via a splitter and have a basic fan speed curve set up in the BIOS - I plan to do more or less the same thing with the new set up.

FYI, I've included a full list of my current and future parts below.

Case:
Image

Current parts:
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ Socket 939 "Manchester"
HSF: Scythe NCU-2005
MB: Gigabyte GA-K8NPRO-SLI
RAM: 2GB Corsair PC3200
GPU: Sapphire HD 6670 1GB GDDR5
HDD: 1TB Samsung 7200RPM HD103UJ
PSU: Antec Phantom 350W
DVD: BenQ DW1640
Fans: 2 x Nexus 120mm Real Silent case fans

Future parts (this is a bit of a work in progress at the moment):
CPU: Intel Core i5-4590 Socket 1150 "Haswell-DT"
HSF: Scythe NCU-2005
MB: Gigabyte B85M-D3H
RAM: 16GB DDR3-1866 (brand TBD)
GPU: GeForce GTX 750 Ti (brand TBD) + Arctic Accelero S1 Plus
SSD: SanDisk Ultra Plus 256GB
HDD: 3TB 7200RPM (brand TBD)
PSU: Seasonic Platinum Fanless 520W
DVD: Pioneer DVD-RW
Fans: 2 x 120mm (brand TBD)

I'm open to suggestion on all these parts if you think there are more appropriate options.


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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 7:11 am 
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Location: ITALY
sipitai wrote:
I'm open to suggestion on all these parts if you think there are more appropriate options.


The venerable Scythe Heatlane was not mean to cool an high frequency (>68W TDP) ten years old CPU under any condition, without a direct airflow; Scythe itself said: "This product is not recommended to use with a high CPU frequency. Your CPU load should be limited to low-mid loading. Please use this product at your own risk."

Said that, your current setup is pretty unusual, so it's difficult to advice without any experience of your overall balance.

Given that you will have two 120mm fans running inside the case, at first glance I don't think a fanless PSU is the best option cooling-wise, but on the other hand your system let the Phantom 350 to survive, and it's a great achievement, because that PSU is really crap, reliability-wise (I've had the slightly revised 500).

Thermally the proposed system seems to have a tad higher limits, because the GTX750Ti has an about 20W higher power draw, but your past history said it *might* be still feasible.
I don't understand whether your current VGA is fanless, or not: in that latter case, you have to take into account a likely, further, higher heat build-up, with the passive Accelero S1.
So, lots of doubts, even better, lots of questions which only test can answer (as I can't know whether you actually have some spare room to grow the overall thermals, or not).

Well, about your proposed system: just my minor observations.

I don't like the Gigabyte mummyboard, historically GB BIOS is not silencers-friendly and besides the B85 chipset lacks the good Intel fake RAID controller. In my humble opionion an ASRock H87 would be more suitable, and an ASUS Z97 also is.
Then I wouldn't pick the SandForce based Sandisk SSD, the UltraPlus is a decent drive but a Crucial M500 should be cheaper and offer better performance with compressed data, and also a basic power-loss protection.
Given a boot SSD, I don't understand at all the choice of a multiplatter 7200rpm drive: coupling it with a passive CPU heatsink, a passive GPU heatsink and a passive PSU has a litttle or no sense, in my humble opinion, airborne noise and seek one are not drowned out (and cannot be completely muffled) by anything.
Set aside the question about why not a fanned PSU, eventually I don't understand the choice of the massive 520 Platinum unit: the 400W one is far more than enough (even the SuperFlower 430 could be a viable option), and it should be noticeably cheaper.
Last but not least, I would stick with Nexus fans: there are no really better candidates, but if you want to go with PWM fans, I would look at the last batch of Scythe Slipstream in the market.

Well, that's all folks: good luck for your re-build!

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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Tue May 27, 2014 9:22 pm 
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Yeah the cooling capacity of the NCU-2005 is the main unknown for me. All I have to go off is that in its current configuration it cools the X2 3800+ very effectively. I have the fans ramping up to 100% (1000rpm) at 50 degrees, which it only ever gets to under significant load, and I don't think I've ever seen it go more than a few degrees beyond that.

In regards to the video card set up, one thing I forgot to mention is that prior to installing the HD 6670 (this is the passive model), I had 2 x passive 7600 GTs in SLI. Prior to that I had a passive 6600gt which was a bit of a toaster. The system didn't have any cooling issues with any of these configurations.

I'll take a look at other motherboards. All I need is something that allows me to set up a temperature / speed curve for the fans and can underclock / undervolt if necessary. That said one of the limitations of my case is that certain placements of the EATX12V connector wont fit :(

I'll look into the Crucial M500. And a 5400rpm storage drive.

With the Seasonic PSU, the 400W version is only $35 less than the 520W version - $200 and $235 respectively. Are there any downsides to getting the 520W version aside from price? No one sells any of the other brands here (of passive PSUs that is).

The reason I've gone for a passive PSU is just because I don't think a fan version is necessary, given the case fans exhaust all the air through / past the PSU.

Yeah I was thinking Nexus or Scythe as far as case fans go. I've been happy with my current Nexus fans, so if they're still as good as they were I'll lock them in.

Thanks for all your advice :)


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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 12:38 am 
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Location: ITALY
sipitai wrote:
With the Seasonic PSU, the 400W version is only $35 less than the 520W version - $200 and $235 respectively.


Shopbot shows you can pick a 400W as low as 186AUD (anyway, 35AUD is about 15% less).


sipitai wrote:
Are there any downsides to getting the 520W version aside from price? No one sells any of the other brands here (of passive PSUs that is).


Given the expected power draw, the efficiency curve is marginally more favourable for the 400W model, and above all there are no advantage at all going with the higher wattage unit.


sipitai wrote:
The reason I've gone for a passive PSU is just because I don't think a fan version is necessary, given the case fans exhaust all the air through / past the PSU.


If you mind, you may look at a semi-fanless PSUs: a Corsair RM450 can be found for about 100AUD less, a smaller Silverstone ST30SF for about 170AUD less, and they should run fanless almost all the time at your expected power draw. Probably even the Seasonic X-Series 560W may be a favourable option, money-wise (140 to 160 AUD, according to Shopbot).

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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Wed May 28, 2014 11:46 pm 
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Looks like I'll be swapping over to the 400W version then :)

I'd actually made the opposite assumption - I figured a higher wattage version of the same PSU would be the better option, as it wouldn't be running as close to capacity and would have better circuitry, heat-sinks, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Comparing watts / temp between different generations of
PostPosted: Thu May 29, 2014 9:42 am 
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Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:12 am
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Location: ITALY
sipitai wrote:
I figured a higher wattage version of the same PSU would be the better option, as it wouldn't be running as close to capacity and would have better circuitry, heat-sinks, etc.


The higher capacity version should have just beefier caps, if I recall correctly, while efficiency-wise, you will want to stay as close as possible to 50% of the rated power.

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