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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:54 pm 
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ozdoc wrote:
Quote:
he only problem now is that I'll have to have an electrician relocate the meters, as they are live. I'll probably just live with the sound until I rewire the house anyways...


Live with the sound!!?? The horror of it all. No, you can't get away with it that easily, having come this far on the journey.
How about some sort of sorbethane or silicone gasket to go underneath the meter, a bit like what the Antec Noisekiller pack does for PSUs?


Ahhh...a kindred spirit I see. Yes, I considered trying something to dampen the sound, primary being getting enough clearance so that the meters don't touch the wall. However, the rigid piping is preventing this from happening.

I just found out though that new electrical meters do not buzz or vibrate, and that having such phenomenon may mean there is something wrong, or going to be wrong with it. So I'm going to call up my local utility, who owns this meter, to see if they will replace it. I'll broach it to them as a "safety issue". Wish me luck... :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:36 pm 
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hmronin wrote:
3. Currently, the Nexus fan is controlled by the T-balancer, which maintains the fan 500 RPM's during idle, and is programmed to increase in speed up to maximum when it senses a rise in temperature of the CPU and GPU. At 500 RPM's, I can't hear the PSU fan from my normal working position. The case fan also is programmed the same way. My thinking with this is that during intensive CPU/GPU activity (gaming / media editing / CAD work), the slight increase noise of Nexus fans at 12V won't be noticed.

4. No temperature differences in the case, and that's using an IR Fluke temp meter. This is what I expected, as the S12 has little heat to deal with, being in the lower chamber of a P180 case, with only one hard drive in the bay.


Your story is nice reading - especially the part about the electricity meters :) .

Just one thing occured to me. I should have realized that there would have been no case temp differences since you are using the P180 :oops: , but what about the PSU? Although the S12 has a very high efficency rating, thereby generating very little of its own heat, it still produces heat. If your T-Balancer is not measuring the heat of the PSU, then you assume that the heat produced in the S12 rises linear to the heat rise you encounter with the CPU/GPU depending on load. Is that correct? Maybe it would be worthwhile to check that to be on the safe side? Just an afterthought I had...

Since I have a S12 430W, I suppose that there would be more heat produced than in the 330W version? (Looking for an answer here...)

BTW, I have no experience with the T-Balancer, but it sounds like a good thing. Have you encountered any problems with that, or is it really easy and fool proof to use? Would you be so kind as to give a a link to a site that displays the one you use? Thanks!

-sun.moon

p.s. as you can see, I have not completely disregarded the idea of exchanging the fan in my S12 :? I guess I need some encouraging stories since I was already burned once with a defective S12 and had to rely on a valid warranty :shock: (Damned Sata connector!)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:38 pm 
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Badger wrote:
There's a Nexus 120mm in the mail coming my way. I'll post back with results, probably around the weekend.


PLEASE take pictures! Thanks :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 2:15 am 
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I had noise issues with my S12 in the lower chamber of the P180 too. It wasn't really the fan in the PSU itself as it could only be heard when I had my head up close, but it was more like some sort of resonance, perhaps because of the two sharp bends the air has to take in order to pass the PSU?

I ended up selling my S12 and buying a Phantom 350W, with a nexus fan at 5V in the middle of the lower chamber, hard drives are MUCH cooler, and the mysterious resonance is gone.

Now I can hear the air wooshing from my hard drives instead :evil:

How come it seems like all my modifications are only making my setup noisier? If I silence a component the next component I can hear seem noisier then the one just silenced.. I guess it is all in the mind of the hard core silencer :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:17 am 
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Ackelind wrote:
How come it seems like all my modifications are only making my setup noisier? If I silence a component the next component I can hear seem noisier then the one just silenced.. I guess it is all in the mind of the hard core silencer :roll:

Tschja! You guys are all bonkers! Once you've quietened your machines, they're quieter! Job done. All this going around and around, trying to save an extra few dbA... Well, you certainly won't catch me doing that once my wonder system arrives...

[/famous last words]

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:00 am 
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@wainwra: To that I can add this:

Elixer wrote:
Slowly the silent bug will affect you. At first your newly born quiet case will satisfy you. Slowly though, the noise will creep into your thought. Soon the quietest fan will be loud and the madness will infect you.

Context is here - which is btw due for an update...

And Elixer is RIGHT :lol:

At first I tended to think like you, but my story, as most stories on this site go, show otherwise. :P

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:27 am 
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sun.moon wrote:
Since I have a S12 430W, I suppose that there would be more heat produced than in the 330W version? (Looking for an answer here...)

PSUs only provide the amount of power needed so it depends on the total power your system uses and the efficiency curve for both power supplies. Though it varies, a gross over simplification would be that they tend to reach peak efficiency at roughly half their rated max output.

So if your system only uses 160W most of the time, the 330W PSU would probably be more efficient and waste less power as heat. If you're using closer to 210W, the 430W PSU would probably be more efficient. Take these numbers with a huge grain of salt though, since I'm pretty much pulling them out of thin air.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:37 am 
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Chang wrote:
PSUs only provide the amount of power needed so it depends on the total power your system uses and the efficiency curve for both power supplies. Though it varies, a gross over simplification would be that they tend to reach peak efficiency at roughly half their rated max output.

So if your system only uses 160W most of the time, the 330W PSU would probably be more efficient and waste less power as heat. If you're using closer to 210W, the 430W PSU would probably be more efficient. Take these numbers with a huge grain of salt though, since I'm pretty much pulling them out of thin air.

You're right in the 1st paragraph; I think you're right in the 2nd para, at least in theory. In practice, the difference would be so small as to be insignificant or no greater than that caused by variance between samples of the same model (~1% or less).

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:41 am 
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sun.moon wrote:

Just one thing occured to me. I should have realized that there would have been no case temp differences since you are using the P180 :oops: , but what about the PSU? Although the S12 has a very high efficency rating, thereby generating very little of its own heat, it still produces heat. If your T-Balancer is not measuring the heat of the PSU, then you assume that the heat produced in the S12 rises linear to the heat rise you encounter with the CPU/GPU depending on load. Is that correct? Maybe it would be worthwhile to check that to be on the safe side? Just an afterthought I had...


BTW, I have no experience with the T-Balancer, but it sounds like a good thing. Have you encountered any problems with that, or is it really easy and fool proof to use? Would you be so kind as to give a a link to a site that displays the one you use? Thanks!

-sun.moon

p.s. as you can see, I have not completely disregarded the idea of exchanging the fan in my S12 :? I guess I need some encouraging stories since I was already burned once with a defective S12 and had to rely on a valid warranty :shock: (Damned Sata connector!)


Actually, the temperature within the lower chamber of the P180 has also not changed, at least not enough for me to detect it. The beauty of the P180's lower chamber is that it allows you to have a dedicated airstream for you PSU and hard drives, so the flowrate becomes less critical.

With regards to the PSU fan being controlled by the T-Balancer off the CPU/GPU temps, my logic is that an increase in these temps signify an increase in energy usage by the CPU and GPU's, which means high power draw from the PSU. So far, I've play games, encoded video, and surfed using this setup with no ill effects, and no increase in default fan speeds. The case temperatures are nice and low, in the 30's (degrees C). Currently all the fans run at a default RPM of about 300-500 RPM's, and so far the T-balancer has not seen the need to increase these RPM's.

I'm not sure what the policy for hyperlinks are for this forum, so just query Google for "T Balancer" and you should get the home page for MCubed, the manufacturer. I believe they are located in your neck of the woods, Austria. I've found this controller to be reliable, simple, and easy to use, with enough flexibility for even the hardcore tweeker. Most importantly, it employs the use of sensors to establish a closed feedback control loop to maintain temperature. Good luck! :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 6:37 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
You're right in the 1st paragraph; I think you're right in the 2nd para, at least in theory. In practice, the difference would be so small as to be insignificant or no greater than that caused by variance between samples of the same model (~1% or less).

What, the "huge grain of salt" and "out of thin air" wasn't enough for you? :D

I've always felt that there is a ton of variation in most computer parts than people give credit to. . . I agree that it's probably not measurable between a 330W and 430W PSU. But how about a 330W and 600W? Do you think the difference you'd see would be comparable to that between a "highly efficienct" PSU and one that was just "efficient"?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:19 pm 
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Chang, it would always depend on which particular models/line you're referring to, don't you think?

In the case of the S12 series, the 500 & 600 are supposed to be higher efficiency models, based on a newer circuit design than the lower power models, which are derived from the older Super Tornado models.

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 Post subject: So..
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:44 am 
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MikeC wrote:
In the case of the S12 series, the 500 & 600 are supposed to be higher efficiency models, based on a newer circuit design than the lower power models, which are derived from the older Super Tornado models.

So heat-wise, even if I just have average power requirements (less than 200W DC say) I'm better off to go with a 500W or 600W highly efficient PSU, rather than PSU with more suitable power output, but with a lower efficiency? Is that right?

Here's a graph I made using the (adjusted) efficiency figures from the S12-600 and the NeoHE 430 reviews:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: So..
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:16 am 
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wainwra wrote:
So heat-wise, even if I just have average power requirements (less than 200W DC say) I'm better off to go with a 500W or 600W highly efficient PSU, rather than PSU with more suitable power output, but with a lower efficiency? Is that right?

Here's a graph I made using the (adjusted) efficiency figures from the S12-600 and the NeoHE 430 reviews:

Image

Very nice, and yes, you're right. BUT, again, you want to think about the significance of the differences.

Up to ~150W, it's about 1%. Looking at it from the heat generation opint of view, at 150W, the PSUs are converting 20% and 21% of the AC input power into heat. Going back and looking at the actual numbers, it turns out to be 34.4W and just under 38W. Call it 3.5W. At 100W, you're looking at maybe 2.3W. Between 50W DC demand at idle and 150W at full load is about typical for a lot of systems.

Is that worth the price difference between these models? Is it worth the $ saved in energy consumption? Will it make a difference in the PSU or system cooling?

Probably not.

As you go to higher output, the difference gets a bit bigger: ~6W at 200W and maybe a bit over 8W at 250W. Depending on how you've configured your system and how effective your airflow is, these could make a small diffference in both temperatures and noise. BUt if you optimized the system w/the neoHE, you could minimize the differences.

Remember that a lot of factors in a PSU are interrelated. Efficiency, for example, depends partly on how much voltage drop there is in the output, and what temperature the core components are running at. If you can drop the higher load temps by 10C, you can be assured that efficiency will actually increase, perhaps not by much... like 1 or 2%. Or perhaps more, depending on how adequate the cooling was in the first place.

So with a NeoHE, if you had a fresh air intake for it, you'd be letting it run cooler, and esp. as the power demand increased, this would translate to improved efficiency. (Of course you could easily argue that optimizing the S12s will give you even higher efficiency...)

The flip side is that if you want absolutely minimal noise, the best approach is to go with the lowest possible steady-state (non-thermally controlled) airflow in the highest efficiency PSU w/ a cool air intake. You'd be leveraging the high efficiency of the PSUs to give you extra headroom to compensate for the inadequate cooling airflow at higher loads.

Hope all that makes sense, not sure if the coffee has actually percolated into my brain yet. :|

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 Post subject: I've done it
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:39 am 
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Alrighty, I've swapped it. Got the new Nexus 120mm from PCtoys.com - ordered Sunday night and received it Wednesday afternoon via USPS. Perfect.

The swap was pretty straighforward. I opted to use the Nexus's three pin connector on the motherboard to control it with Speedfan.

Here is the S12 out of the system:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... ure001.jpg

Here you see the S12-330 taken apart; you can see where the fan connects to the PSU's regulator:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... ure002.jpg

Here's the Nexus inside:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... ure003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... ure004.jpg

Back in the case; hard drive enclosures shown:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... ure005.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... ure006.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... ure007.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... ure008.jpg

The ADDA fan, so you can see how it's wired:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... ure010.jpg

Using Speedfan at 5%, 943rpm is loud. Well not loud, but you know:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... ap/fan.jpg
Here is after sitting idle for a while, fan speed at 1%, unsure of the rpms (less than 700); the gray line is the XFX nVidia 6800:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... fanat1.jpg


Right now I've setup Speedfan to autmatically adjust the fan's speed, down to 1%, I can tell that 2% is just a hair louder. The exhaust is warm, warmer than with the Adda fan going at 790-800 rpms, but IT IS QUIETER.

Can anyone tell me how to make Speedfan open at startup? Maybe I'm just overlooking something.

EDIT: Nevermind, I got it, just stick a shortcut to Speedfan in the "Startup" folder of Start/Programs. Easy.

My temps all around the system haven't changed a bit, at least at idle right now. I'll test it under load later.

The next loudest thing is the rear exhaust fan. That one came stock with the 3700BQE, and I run it at 5v along with the Nexus on the CPU. It's really quite quiet, but just a hair louder than the Nexus fans at 5v. From a meter or two away it's not noticable. I'll test that tonight when its dark and quiet.

The harddrives are quieted quite effectively by the homemade enclosures I made, a copycat job of Alleycat's work that I saw on SPCR. The temps are good too - they're very effective. Just an aluminum enclosure with two hot/cold gel packs sandwhiching the drives.

The next steps towards quiet will be removing the cork for some heavy duty vinyl tiles from Home Depot, as I saw in the Cases and Dampening section, and then possibly replacing that rear exhaust fan for a Nexus 120mm, I dont know about that one though, we'll see.

EDIT:
I went to Home Depot and got some vinyl tiles. It did make a difference. I put some pics up in the Gallery ("If you want it quiet, it has to be heavy"), though the pictures aren't much different than those here.

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Last edited by Badger on Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:29 pm 
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The graphs inspired me. For kicks I did them all:
Image

Very similar looking, but what I found more interesting was the second one I made, of the rated wattage and the measured level where peak efficiency was achieved. For when two points had the same peak efficiency I used the average of the two:
Image

Eyeballing it seemed to show a pretty strong correlation. The blue points are all of them and the blue line is the linear fit. Exclude the one outlier and you've got an R-squared of over 0.8, stronger than I thought. Those are the pink. If you want to believe those numbers, it looks like peak efficiency is close to 40% of rated value plus 25W.

Not all that polished of an analysis, I know. And not particularly vigorous either. I found it interesting though and thought I'd share.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:05 pm 
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Very interesting indeed!

(I was thinking about doing more too - glad I waited now!)

Can you put labels on the data points? I'd love to know what the outlier is. Looks to me as if they used a PSU that was rated for a lower power, but just made sure the components would stand up to a few extra watts.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 12:03 am 
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My, this is becoming a very lively and interesting thread!

@Badger: Nice Job! Could you maybe take a detailed picture of the Adda connector? or describe how the ground wire is connected/passed through to the mainboard connector? I am not sure that I follow that on hand the picture you posted. Obviously I haven't broken my warranty seal yet :)

@Chang: Thanks for those graphs - it helps visualize the relationships between the PSUs better.


GENERAL QUESTION TO EXPERIENCED SILENCERS AND/OR EXPERTS:
So now we have two successful S12 fan mods (thanks to hmronin and Badger!). Both have opted not to use the fan controller in the S12. Question is, can one be considered on the safe side to use the PSU controller with a S12 fan mod? Or is it recommended to use an external controller? And then why?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 3:09 am 
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I'll try to take a picture later today.

I just opted not use the S12 fan's controller because it's connector is only 2 pin, and is therefore smaller than and will not fit a 3 pin connector. I really didn't feel like splicing wires and soldering. So to the motherboard it is!

You'll get a better idea of the connector with the picture.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:00 am 
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More cavaets. The graphs were from a cut and paste of the HTML table into Excel. I may have one or more errors.

The "outlier" was the only 550W PSU, the Coolermaster one. Its peak efficiency was reached at 150W and 200W, making it the point at 550W and 175W. I feel that I should say that I don't know if being an outlier is a good thing or a bad thing -- it's just that it doesn't look as much like the other points as I thought it should.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 8:51 am 
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sun.moon wrote:
GENERAL QUESTION TO EXPERIENCED SILENCERS AND/OR EXPERTS:
So now we have two successful S12 fan mods (thanks to hmronin and Badger!). Both have opted not to use the fan controller in the S12. Question is, can one be considered on the safe side to use the PSU controller with a S12 fan mod? Or is it recommended to use an external controller? And then why?


Difficult to say whether or not using the S12 fan controller is a good idea or not, with another fan. Here are some points I considered when making my decision:

1. The S12 fan controller may be tailored for the characteristics of the ADDA fan, so using another fan may have unexpected results. However, I find it hard to believe that Seasonic would go through the trouble of revamping their fan controller, when they decided to replace the Yate Loon with the ADDA, so its very possible there is no change to it anyways. This would mean using any fan with the existing controller will work fine.

2. In my case, since I was already using a fan controller to control all my other fans, it just made sense to consolidate all control to the T-Balancer. That way, I could setup the programming so that all the fans work synergistically. (Is that a real word? :D )

3. It would be relatively easy to test the effectiveness of another fan, using the S12 controller, since Seasonic provides feedback to the motherboard on fan rpms. But as pointed out earlier, you would need to do some cutting and soldering (Too much work for me! :lol: )

Either way, I don't think the risk is high. Worst case, the PSU will shut down on high temp (I doubt this very much), or it will run louder than OEM.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 8:37 am 
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Here's the difference between fan connectors. The one on the right is what connects to the PSU's regulator from the ADDA fan. It's two pinned. The one of the left is what all your other case fans have, 3 pins, fits on your mobo, etc... They are not the same size and do not fit eachother's other ends.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v245/ ... ure018.jpg

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Last edited by Badger on Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 9:08 am 
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Thanks for the extra effort Badger. It looks like the black ground wire goes into the two pin connector from the fan and comes back out to the three pin connector.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:58 am 
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I just replaced the ADDA of my S12-430 with a Yate Loon D12SL
It´s fantastic quiet right now.
The fan speeds up to 980 r/min under heavy load.
Can someone tell me, if this means the maximum of 11 volt the S12 can do ( fancontrol) ?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:29 am 
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1 volt is lost from the electronics in the fan

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 2:17 pm 
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AudiQ7 wrote:
1 volt is lost from the electronics in the fan


Nopers, I doubt that. As seen on http://www.silentpcreview.com/article596-page4.html the voltage range for the new S12 is

Code:
Seasonic S12-330 (new sleeved revision but smaller heatsinks)
Watts   41   65    90   152   200   249    300    330
Fan V  4.3  4.3   4.3   5.5   7.8   10.0   11.0   11.0


As you can see fan voltages can range from under 4 volts to 12.0 volts depending on the fan and fan controller, see below for more voltages

Code:
Seasonic S12-430 (older non sleeved revision full size heatsinks)
Watts   40   65    90   150   200   250    300    430
Fan V  x.x  4.5   4.5   4.7   6.3    8.1   10.3   11.0


Code:
Silverstone Strider 560W
Watts  42    66    90   150   200   249   300    401    499
Fan V 4.7   4.7   4.8   5.6   7.3   9.2  12.0   12.0   12.0

Silverstone Element Plus ST50EF-Plus
Watts  41    67    89   148   202   249   302    399    500
Fan V 4.5   4.5   4.5   4.5   4.5   4.9   6.8   10.3   11.6

Seasonic S12-500 / 600
Watts  xx    65    90   150   200   250   300    400    500
Fan V  xx   3.8   3.8   4.2   5.4   6.5   7.8   10.1   11.0

Seasonic S12-550E+
Watts  41    64    91   150   198   250   299    400    500
Fan V 3.8   3.8   3.8   3.8   3.8   3.9   5.6    9.9   11.3

Seasonic S12-650E+
Watts  41    64    91   150   198   250   299    400    500
Fan V 3.8   3.8   3.8   3.8   3.8   4.1   5.3    9.1   10.9


The top end limit here is by choice not by some unavoidable loss in voltage by the fan or fan controller.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:22 am 
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derkojak wrote:
I just replaced the ADDA of my S12-430 with a Yate Loon D12SL
It´s fantastic quiet right now.
The fan speeds up to 980 r/min under heavy load.
Can someone tell me, if this means the maximum of 11 volt the S12 can do ( fancontrol) ?

I'm contemplating a fan swap for my sleeved S12-430. Would a D12SM-12 connected to the fan controller make things quieter? D12SL-12 seems a tad too slow.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 10:30 am 
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You have to remember that the Yate Loon is a conventional sleeve bearing fan. They do not work nearly as long in the horizontal position (blowing up/down), and they're usually not as quiet. Finally, the close proximity to the heat in the PSU will probably cause relatively quick evaporation of the lubricant oil in the sleeve bearing.

All of the above reasons tell us why even Nexus PSUs don't use Nexus 120mm fans, and why every 120mm fan PSU we know of employs a ball bearing fan.

As long as you are willing to risk early fan failure...

How early? Who can really say? We don't have any body of evidence to go by. You could start a thread asking for info from folks who have modded PSUs with a 120mm sleeve bearing fan swap.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:06 am 
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That's a good warning on the dangers of PSU fan swap, from MikeC, and I agree 100%.
However, it would be good if SPCR would write an article about PSU fan swap.
Which recommended fans could be (reasonably) safely used with which recommended PSUs?
I would assume that the maximum load in a user's system will be under 50% of the maximum load for that PSU.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:41 am 
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Posts: 28
Location: Romania
It's very interesting to see how the most controllers works in the PSUs. They speed-up voltage gradually until the heat inside is ok or there is a sort of table that tels what voltage to use for the given temperature (this method to control the fan speed won't work fine for fanswap if the fans have big diferences between specs).

Another thing to consider is that the PSU's are intended to be used in much different systems, hotter or very demanding for energy. This way, they use a very large safe intervals so the PSU will work fine in every condition and if your system isn't hot at all or it doesn't use to much power there won't be needed to much RPM from the PSU fan either.

I know that the heat in the PSU kills capacitors first (i didn't see to many PSU's that have caps rated at 105C or over).

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 7:26 am 
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Posts: 862
Location: Poland
I've decided it's now time to fanswap my S12. The unit is still pretty fresh and the fan is still ok, but I *want* it quieter anyway (common thing, eh). Never mind the warranty. I've chosen to use Scythe S-Flex 1600. I wanted to go with Fander 120 but it has sleeve bearings. I have 3 Fanders and they perform great when in vertical position, but I guess putting one in a PSU is not the best option. Well, so what do you think about the S-Flex 1600? From what I've read on it, it will be perfect. No YL's or Nexuses (Nexii?) around. I'm planning to plug it directly to my manual Akasa controller that already works with my other fans. After the fanswap the controller will handle the CPU fan, the rear fan and the PSU fan. The front fan will run on its own, at min RPM, thanks to the built-in potentiometer. I'll also remove the protective grill and try to mount the new fan on rubber pegs. So, what do you think? I guess it'll work fine but would like to have your opinion on that - like, am I missing sth., am I using the right RPM version (1600 or 1200?). Thanks in advance!


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