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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:43 pm
Posts: 60
I was just pondering a fan swap for the S12-330 as well. I would go with the S-Flex "F" or 1600RPM, since it is a better match to the stock fan in terms of max CFM. Also, the SPCR tests show it starts at 4V whereas the "E" 1200RPM model starts at 4.8V, so there seems to be a chance that the slower one wouldn't start with the S12's baseline fan voltage (if you intend to use the internal fan controller, as I do).

FWIW, I did a fan swap on my SS-460, using a Panaflo 80mm high speed, and it runs great even at the lowest fan voltage from the seasonic controller. I also chose that fan to better match the stock fan in terms of max CFM.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 1:23 pm 
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I went ahead and put the S-Flex "F" model in my S12-330. It's now much quieter than before, as the old S12 Adda fan had a somewhat coarse and rough sound, which made it both the loudest and most annoying sound in my system. Now I am extremely content with the noise level of this new system; the modded S12, two S-Flex "E" at 50% via speedfan, and two Samsung HD501LJ's suspended in a Solo are my only noisemakers.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2007 2:28 pm 
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Posts: 489
Location: UK
SebRad wrote:
Hi, I have swapped the fan in my PSU (for a Panaflo L1A 80mm). It's lower speed (1900 vs 2500rpm) than the original and significantly quieter. (Although the near sealed intake duct probably helps too). The theory I'm working on is that as it's still connected to the fan controller if the PSU temps get very high it should take the fan to high RPM (which never happens) The overall effect being that, for example, at 50% output you have the temperature and associated fan voltage of 75% output, so the PSU runs hotter that it otherwise would but still with in spec range. It seams to me like a better method than hardwired fan voltage as there is still some scope for increased fan speed. Anyone understand what I'm trying to explain and got any thoughts on it?
(I think this is relavent to this thread as we're talking about swapping quieter/slower fans in to an S12)
Thanks, Seb


What PSU have you swapped the fan for?


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 Post subject: finally swapped
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2007 4:32 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 11:20 pm
Posts: 859
Location: Poland
I've finally fanswapped me proud beauty and now she runs even quieter. Not that I was unhappy with the Adda. I assure you - nothing like that at all. It's just that you need to tweak sth. from time to time, just to stay in shape and to satiate the need for unreasonably quiet components.

Here's the main points of the story:

Fan (manufacturer's data) - Fander FX120-W, 7 blades, operating voltage +5V - +13.8V, current 0.18A (0.21A max), power 2.16W, 700 - 1,400 RPM, 31 - 67 CFM, 14.9 - 23.7 dB(A), life 80,000 h. Comes with a built-in potentiometer. Yup, it's the SPCR's favorite 92mm fan big brother. Well, AFAIK you'll see it in the next roundup of 120mm so we'll all know then how it fares against the seasoned veterans. To me it seems audibly quieter that the stock Adda from S12 430 and pretty much on par with S-Flex 1200. I initially wanted to use S-Flex 1600 but they were not readily available.

Control - as with other fans in my setup, I decided to hook the PSU fan to my trusty Akasa manual controller. Why not the excellent S12 controller or at least the mobo? I just like to have the fans under total control. And the silver knobs on my Akasa are sooo sexy :D Now, you'll notice I'll be able to use 2 potentiometers in this setup, which means my Fanders can go down real low. By turning the fan potentiometer down and turning the controller potentiometer down as well, I can stop the fan altogether if I so chose. Of course, in this setting it's max RPM will be limited, but for most situations it's a perfect solution. I can't say exactly when the fan wakes up, but I'd say it's app. 4V. Anyway, as the fan is v v v quiet at its own min RPM, I decided to let it run like that (ca 700 RPM) and only use the Akasa controller to speed it up, not to slow it down any further. I mean - no reason to have the PSU passive as it's virtually inaudible from 30 cm - lying on the table, jumpstarted. I could distinguish the original fan in the PSU at its min RPM from app. 1 m (PSU on the table, jumpstarted). So far (after the fanswap), I never had to run it faster than at minimal voltage. I'm constantly monitoring the temperature of air escaping the PSU so I'll know if/when the PSU gets mauled and I'll save it. Even when I leave the RPM down when playing a game or doing a stress test, the PSU stays v cool.

Noise – when both fans are run alone, w/o other sources of noise, Fander is audibly quieter at minimal RPM (700 RPM) and also stays quieter throughout all the range. I guess the minimal RPM of Adda is sth. like 800, so pretty much the same level. I used my Akasa controller to, duh, control Adda and to compare it to Fander. The jumpstarted PSU with Fander inside (placed on the desk) also behaves quieter – it's practically impossible to hear from 30-40 cm. When in the case, it disappears completely, even at a very short distance. My Barracuda from hell ( in Scythe QD, mind you) blankets all other noise. Before, some of the noise from the PSU was distinguishable from app. 30 cm (with the HDD running). The PSU is now as quiet as a passively cooled PSU. I even discovered that the circuitry inside the PSU makes some v slight buzzing noise that disappears at >10 cm.

Swap - everything went smoothly, I didn't get zapped, the fan fits perfectly, responds to the controller like it should be and generally works great.

Temps - before the fanswap, I measured the temperature of the air leaving the PSU in idle and under load. I also checked the temps after I installed the new fan.

Original S12 (fan RPM ??? - those of you who can monitor the RPM know)
Idle – 7 Celsius degrees above ambient
Load – 14 degrees

Fanswapped S12 (fan RPM <700)
Idle – 5 Celsius degrees above ambient
Load – 10 degrees

Idle means... idle. Load means gaming seriously for at least an hour. Strange, huh? I'd say the original fan was running a wee faster. Also, I remember how warm the air felt before and how much airflow there was. Now, I get even better temps with apparently less airflow. The case around the PSU feels cool – it doesn't get warmer than before. Man, this is strange... I mean – I'm very happy with these results, but it's just a little odd.

Temps for the rest of my system in this setup (both 120mm fans in the rear at lowest RPM, front 92mm fan at its lowest too, VGA cooler at 25% app. 600 RPM, ambient is 21 degrees):

Idle:
CPU – 31
NB – 33
VGA – 51
HDD – 34

Load:
CPU – 52 (gaming), 55 (Orthos)
NB – 34
VGA – 62
HDD – 34

For gaming I like to crank all Fanders just a wee higher, I'd say up to 7-8V, and the VGA fan to 40%. I can't tell the RPM of either of them but they sure stay v quiet, and given that you don't need complete silence for entertainment purposes, I could just as well speed them up and still feel v comfortable. Come to think of that – I guess I'll have to add a single wire to the fan 3-pin connector and lead it to a header on the mobo to see at what speed the fan is running.

Some data on power consumption (watts measured with a Voltcraft watt-o-meter at the socket):

Idle – 100W
Gaming – 220W
Max load – 250W

Multiply it by 0.8 (or 0.75) and ye shall get thy real wattage and see how much (or rather how little) heat needs to be dissipated by the PSU's beefy radiators and the anemic fan. No wonder the PSU stays cool and I don't have to up the fan.

Awww, I know you've seen it all, but hey, a few pics never hurt:

Image
Don't you want one of those beauties?


Image
Your ordinary, stock fave - love'em beefy radiators.


Image
Fander in place, controller & power cable pulled outside, grill removed, silicon spacers used, the usual.


Image
PSU where it belongs. Cable will be routed to Akasa controller.


Image
Even at lowest RPM the 2 Fanders have no problem cooling the passive Ninja under serious & prolonged load.


Image
See how close they are? Looks aesthetic & clean too.


Image
Final shot. Pretty strong, super quiet & dress to kill.


So, was it all worth it? Yeah, sure, it always is. However, as I said – there is audible improvement only when the computer is on the desk with its side panels off. When under the desk and working in normal conditions, there is just v tiny practical improvement – and only if you know what to listen for. I believe I'll appreciate the improvement after I replace my thundering Barracuda with a Spinpoint or a Momentus.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:24 am 
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Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:21 pm
Posts: 661
Location: Denmark
I've finally reached a point, where my S12 380, is the noisiest component.

I might solve the problem, by a simple fan swap. But... Well, since you're on this forum, I guess... you know :wink:

I find the below idea very appealing, and tempting.

MikeC wrote:
I know that this topic is about modding an S12 with a quieter fan for use in a P180. I have a radical suggestion.

1. Remove the cover off any (halfway decent?) PSU.
2. Remove the fan.
3. Mount it coverless and fanless in the P180.
4. Block the extra vent holes below the PSU exhaust on the back panel of the case.
5. Mount the quietest 120mm fan you can get your hands on in the PSU chamber and run it at the lower voltage that it can start at.
6. Relax and enjoy the quiet w/o worrying about the PSU overheating.

Caveats:
1. POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS EXPOSURE TO HIGH VOLTAGE if you open the case when the system is powered up or plugged into AC.
2. It will work more "safely" (thermally speaking) with more efficient PSUs that have bigger heatsinks.
3. You might even want to bend (or cut away) the "intake" panel so that the airflow from the mid-way fan can go unimpeded straight into the PSU.
4. If you have a PSU with a smart fan controller (like the Seasonics), you have the option of powering the 120mm fan via the PSU fan controller.

I have been meaning to try this for some time. Maybe next week... I've always meant for the P180 to be a silent PC experimenter's dream case. ;)


To me, the downside is the risk of 220 volt electric shock, when I open my P182. And even if I always remember to disconnect the 220 AC, before opening the case (hmmm...), there's still a risk of high voltage shock from the capasitors.

So I have a plan for modifying the S12 housing, so all sides are closed, exept the common rear grill, and on the opposite side, where I'll make a new grill. Or with other words: A PSU house which is open front and rear, making for a straight-through airflow in the P180 lower chamber.

I'm considering either using a 12 cm fan at the common place in the P180's psu chamber.

Or using two 8 cm fans side by side, directly on the PSU's new grill. Those fans will be 16 cm, and the PSU case is 15 cm wide. But it will mainly be the frame of the 8 cm fan, which is "outside" the 15 cm PSU.

Which do you think is better: one 12 cm fan, or two 8 cm? I tend to try the two 8 cm, since it would avoid the "trumphet" effect from a 12 cm fan, entering the PSU from the end...

Any thoughts are welcome...


Thanks,
Thomas

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:50 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:32 am
Posts: 489
Location: UK
I've used a Noisetaker clone (fans removed) in the lower section of a P180. I have an older Seasonic Tornado but I'm not good at modding so gave that a miss.

IMO you would be better off with a couple of 80mm fans as you can direct the airflow better towards the internals.

Then again a 120mm with duct (so airflow is directed) would be better?

Sorry, I'm not much help.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:56 am 
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SPCR News Editor

Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 11:20 am
Posts: 2175
Location: TN, USA
MikeC wrote:
You have to remember that the Yate Loon is a conventional sleeve bearing fan. They do not work nearly as long in the horizontal position (blowing up/down), and they're usually not as quiet. Finally, the close proximity to the heat in the PSU will probably cause relatively quick evaporation of the lubricant oil in the sleeve bearing.

All of the above reasons tell us why even Nexus PSUs don't use Nexus 120mm fans, and why every 120mm fan PSU we know of employs a ball bearing fan.

As long as you are willing to risk early fan failure...

How early? Who can really say? We don't have any body of evidence to go by. You could start a thread asking for info from folks who have modded PSUs with a 120mm sleeve bearing fan swap.


How about this as a data point.

I have a S12-430 rev. A1 that I bought within a few months of your review (Spring or Summer of 2005). It has a Yate Loon D12SM-12 in it as the stock fan. I'm not sure when they all switched to Ball bearing fans but it seems my S12 has a sleeve bearing.

Sometime in the last few months it started growling at startup but once the fan is spinning for more than 20 seconds or so the noise goes away.

It might keep working like this for many months to come. I'd like to just oil the fan but I can't get access to the spindle/axle.

Can I puncture that seal add lube and then put a sticker back over it? If not I guess I'll find out how long it will last as this is my primary system.

I have a D12SL-12 laying here but the fan connector on the S12 is glued on so I can't pop it off like shown at http://www.silentpcreview.com/article83-page1.html

Also the fan header is on a vertical piece of PCB that is glued in place so putting a lot of force on the header to pop off the plastic would require great care to not break off the connection to the PSU motherboard.

I suppose if I can't oil the fan and it does get worse I'll just cut wires and splice a new fan on but I'd much rather avoid doing that.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:15 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:13 am
Posts: 13
Well I just bought one of the new S12s - based on the recommendation here and having not noticed the various threads talking about the new fan - and it was way too noisy now I've put the new machine together.

I just swapped the fan for the stock fan that came with my Ninja - it was what I had lying around - and it's a massive improvement. It seems to spin quite slowly however (I'm using the PSU's fan controller so I don't have any hard data).

Anyone got suggestions on how I can monitor it?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:09 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:10 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Poland
Hi,

I have a S12-430 Rev. A1 with ADDA fan (which is rated on 1800 rpm).
I would like to replaced the ADDA with Scythe S-FLEX F (1600 rpm) or G (1900 rpm) version but don't know which one will be better.

The fan will be connected to PSU fan controller.

Thanks in advance


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:57 am 
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Site Admin

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 11871
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Kolu wrote:
I have a S12-430 Rev. A1 with ADDA fan (which is rated on 1800 rpm).
I would like to replaced the ADDA with Scythe S-FLEX F (1600 rpm) or G (1900 rpm) version but don't know which one will be better.

The fan will be connected to PSU fan controller.

The F will be fine.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:29 am 
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Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:29 am
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Location: Edinburgh
I just replaced the fan in my S12II-330 with a Scythe S-FLEX 1600rpm, yesterday. It does make a difference, the whine of the HDD is now definitely the loudest noise left.

I routed the new fan's RPM line out of the PSU and onto one of the fan headers on the motherboard so I can monitor the speed. It's sitting at about 425rpm at the moment.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:05 am 
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Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 11:50 pm
Posts: 5
Moon GT wrote:
I just replaced the fan in my S12II-330 with a Scythe S-FLEX 1600rpm, yesterday. It does make a difference, the whine of the HDD is now definitely the loudest noise left.

I routed the new fan's RPM line out of the PSU and onto one of the fan headers on the motherboard so I can monitor the speed. It's sitting at about 425rpm at the moment.


I'm thinking of doing something along the same lines, but I was thinking of fitting a Seasonic S12II-330 with Scythe S-FLEX 120mm Fan 800rpm SFF21D and running in off the CPU fan header at 12v constant. (Will have the added benefit of stopping the system beeping a CPU fan failure every time I boot it up)

I built my media/storage box 2.5 years ago, the only fan in the system is the stock item in the Thermaltake 450watt PSU (120mm with grill removed), I resently upgraded the box by added a Highpoint Raid card and 4x Western Digital 1TB Green drives which reduced the hard drive noise and the heat produced by the RAID array. But now the fan in the PSU is very noticeable and it sounds like dust and age have taken there toll on it. The 450w PSU has always been over kill for the system and more so now with the Green drives replacing the four standard 320gb drives I had in there previously. So I'm thinking kill two birds with one stone, replace the PSU with something more efficent and make the system quietier at the same time, and the 'Fluid Dynamic Bearing' should save me needing to replace the fan again any time soon.

Image

The stock Adda AD1212MB-A71GL fan spec are as follows: 120x120x25mm, 2050RPM, 80.5CFM, 38dBA @ 12v

Image

According to S12II-300 review on AnandTech, the fan RPM only ever gets to about 1350rpm max, which would be equal to about 43CFM at max load.

Image

As you can see from the graph it spends most of it's time at ~900rpm, so I'm guess that a Scythe SFF21D with 33.5CFM @ 12v should be enough airflow to keep the S12II-330 cool, and near silient at the same time.

The spec of my media pc is: (pulled 85-90watt off the wall with old HDDs)
AMD 939 Athlon64 3000+ (software clocked between 1ghz-2ghz @ 1.1volts)
Thermaltake Sonic Tower (passive)
ASUS A8N-VM CSM motherboard.
Corsair TwinX1024-4000PRO (2x 512mb DDR-500 dimms)
Highpoint RocketRAID 3200
4x Western Digital WD10EADS 1TB Hard Drives.
LG IDE 18x DVD-Writer (reads DVD-Video @ 4.8x)
Sony FDD (for loading XP RAID Drivers only)
Hauppauge WinTV-PVR-150 tv tuner.
Procase CS5218 Mini-ATX tower.

So think it will work
:?:


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:36 am 
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