PSU cheaper and as good as S12-430?
Moderators: NeilBlanchard, Ralf Hutter, sthayashi, Lawrence Lee, Devonavar
-
SilentPower
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:41 am
PSU cheaper and as good as S12-430?
I know the S12-430 is the best most silent PSU, but it costs $100. I'll buy it if there's nothing else but I want to know if there is anything cheaper than it that comes close to it in terms of silence? No Antecs because I have an old Antec and it has problems with my Asus A7N8X motherboard. It looks like a lot of Antecs have problems with Asus motherboards.
Seasonic S12-430 PSU alternatives
Unless you are planning to run two high-end video cards, a raft of hard drives, and a hot processor, 430W seems like a lot of power. The Seasonic S12-330 used to sell for $50-$60 and should provide more than enough power for most people. For my latest system, I went with the S12-380 because I found it on sale for $60-$65. For me, that was probably overkill.
Have you assessed your power needs and are you sure you need 430W of power?
Have you assessed your power needs and are you sure you need 430W of power?
-
SilentPower
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:41 am
I hadn't heard anything about the 330 and 380, I'd like to get one of those if I can. I don't know, I will be adding a 3rd hard drive soon (regular 7200rpm). I run an Athlon XP 2500+ and a gig of memory. I've got a Nvidia 6600 graphics card for games which I sometimes play, not that much. I've got a video capture card which I sometimes use with everything else closed so I get the best framerates. And I've got a dvd recorder and a regular dvd player. How much power do you think I need? If I can get away with the 330 or 380 I'll go for one of those, but Pricegrabber doesn't even list them. Hell they've only got 2 places for the 430. Do you know where they sell the 330 and 380?
for your power requirements you will be fine with a 330W. If you defrag all your disks, while burning a dvdr, watching a dvd and playing a game you might push 200W if that! My rig (see my sig) runs fine off an antec smartpower 350.SilentPower wrote:How much power do you think I need? If I can get away with the 330 or 380 I'll go for one of those
Where to buy Seasonic S12-330
The Seasonic S12-330 seems to be scarce at the moment, but they appear to be available from a small number of vendors. I did a search on Google and found a couple vendors who might have this power supply:
http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=PS-S12-330
http://www.directron.com/s12330.html
I also went to eBay, did a search for "Seasonic S12-330" and found several more power supplies, including a vendor with 300+ sales, a 100% feedback rating, and a BuyItNow price of $60 (including shipping).
http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=PS-S12-330
http://www.directron.com/s12330.html
I also went to eBay, did a search for "Seasonic S12-330" and found several more power supplies, including a vendor with 300+ sales, a 100% feedback rating, and a BuyItNow price of $60 (including shipping).
You can get the Seasonic 330w shipped for ~$55 @ Case-mod.com.
Case-mod.com has a 8.5 lifetime rating at resellerratings.com
Case-mod.com has a 8.5 lifetime rating at resellerratings.com
-
SilentPower
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:41 am
Power Supply Fundamentals
To set your mind at ease, you might take a look at the Power Supply Fundamentals article:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page1.html
To quote from this article (from early 2005):
"Our own experience indicates that despite all the new power hungry components such as >75W video cards and >120W CPUs, it is still rare to find a desktop computer than draws much more than 200W DC under typical demanding applications. Around 300W DC looks to be about the highest power draw from a single CPU full-bore high end system at this time (Feb 2005). Although some headroom is always good to have, there seems little question that consumers are being persuaded to pay for power capacity that is never used. One of the nasty side effects is the fan noise of the high airflow required to keep the PSU adequately cooled when delivering maximum power. High speed fans generally make more noise than slower ones even when they are slowed by undervolting."
This comes with some important caveats:
* As noted elsewhere in the article, sometimes manufacturers market power supplies that won't deliver their rated capacities in real-world conditions. However, Seasonic has a reputation for honestly rating their power supplies.
* You need both enough total power and enough power on each of the indiviudal rails in your system (12V, 5V, etc). This is another area where premium power supplies such as the Seasonic do well. The S12-330 is rated for 120W (3.3V + 5V), 264W (12V), 10W (5Vsb), and 10W (-12V). In other words, while the total wattage is limited to 330W, the sum of the individual rails is 404W. The 264W of 12V power is particularly significant as the video card and CPU will both draw from these lines.
* If you are thinking about running dual high-end video cards, then you might want a larger power supply. Other technological innovations might also cause you to use more power in the future.
* However, as long as you continue to focus on quiet computing, you are less likely to worry about power requirements anytime soon. Power use creates heat which typically leads to noisy fans to get rid of the heat. Accordingly, many of the people at SPCR focus on low-power components which do not need as much power, do not create as much heat, and do not need noisy fans to dump the heat.
Some other thoughts on your situation... Your processor is rated for 68W, but probably draws less than that most of the time. Your video card is rated for just under 50W. If you overclock, you should still be under 100W for the CPU.
Although your machine will use more power at startup, your video card will not use lots of power at startup which gives you some overhead.
At a guesstimate, your machine's peak load would be while gaming as this would drive both the CPU, graphics card, and also CD player. In this situation, your peak system load might be something along the lines of:
* 70W CPU
* 50W Graphics card
* 20W optical drive
* 20W motherboard
* 20W everything else
At an estimate of 180W for your system, you would then have 150W overhead to overclock your CPU, upgrade your graphics processor, and still have some additional safety margin against the above numbers. Note that when you are not stressing your system, it would probably only use around 100W.
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article28-page1.html
To quote from this article (from early 2005):
"Our own experience indicates that despite all the new power hungry components such as >75W video cards and >120W CPUs, it is still rare to find a desktop computer than draws much more than 200W DC under typical demanding applications. Around 300W DC looks to be about the highest power draw from a single CPU full-bore high end system at this time (Feb 2005). Although some headroom is always good to have, there seems little question that consumers are being persuaded to pay for power capacity that is never used. One of the nasty side effects is the fan noise of the high airflow required to keep the PSU adequately cooled when delivering maximum power. High speed fans generally make more noise than slower ones even when they are slowed by undervolting."
This comes with some important caveats:
* As noted elsewhere in the article, sometimes manufacturers market power supplies that won't deliver their rated capacities in real-world conditions. However, Seasonic has a reputation for honestly rating their power supplies.
* You need both enough total power and enough power on each of the indiviudal rails in your system (12V, 5V, etc). This is another area where premium power supplies such as the Seasonic do well. The S12-330 is rated for 120W (3.3V + 5V), 264W (12V), 10W (5Vsb), and 10W (-12V). In other words, while the total wattage is limited to 330W, the sum of the individual rails is 404W. The 264W of 12V power is particularly significant as the video card and CPU will both draw from these lines.
* If you are thinking about running dual high-end video cards, then you might want a larger power supply. Other technological innovations might also cause you to use more power in the future.
* However, as long as you continue to focus on quiet computing, you are less likely to worry about power requirements anytime soon. Power use creates heat which typically leads to noisy fans to get rid of the heat. Accordingly, many of the people at SPCR focus on low-power components which do not need as much power, do not create as much heat, and do not need noisy fans to dump the heat.
Some other thoughts on your situation... Your processor is rated for 68W, but probably draws less than that most of the time. Your video card is rated for just under 50W. If you overclock, you should still be under 100W for the CPU.
Although your machine will use more power at startup, your video card will not use lots of power at startup which gives you some overhead.
At a guesstimate, your machine's peak load would be while gaming as this would drive both the CPU, graphics card, and also CD player. In this situation, your peak system load might be something along the lines of:
* 70W CPU
* 50W Graphics card
* 20W optical drive
* 20W motherboard
* 20W everything else
At an estimate of 180W for your system, you would then have 150W overhead to overclock your CPU, upgrade your graphics processor, and still have some additional safety margin against the above numbers. Note that when you are not stressing your system, it would probably only use around 100W.
I was running a A64 3200+ overclocked to 2.4 GHz, with an ATI 9800 Pro, 1 optical, 1 HDD and 1 GB of RAM. At peak usage (running game, optical drive spinning), it barely hits 185W AC draw. Factoring in 80% efficiency that's barely 150W DC.SilentPower wrote:Thanks for your help guys. This is just looking into the future, but what if I decided to upgrade to a 64-bit 4000+ processor later on, or overclock my current AthlonXP 2500+ to 3200+, or overclock my Geforce 6600GT, would the S12-330 take it? Or would I be better off with a 380 or 430?
A friend runs his 2500+ Barton overclocked to 3200+ with the same graphics card with a Fortron 300W. I believe the 6600GT is less power hungry than the 9800 Pro.
-
SilentPower
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:41 am
Thanks for putting my mind at ease. You know, when I bought this loud 300w Antec years ago I was deciding whether to buy a 250w or 300w. I went with the 300w cause I heard that was more than sufficient. Why do they have all these 500 watters nowadays? I see on Pricegrabber they're all on top of the list as most popular power supplies.
-
SilentPower
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:41 am
They've got 3 left so if anybody wants one you better hurry!Those who say that you don't need more than a couple hundred watts may be correct for typical systems, but if you buy a small supply, you will not be able to use today's top-end AMD (e.g., FX-60) and Intel processors (9x0 series), nor the top-end video cards (e.g., X1900). As long as you are okay with that...
Power Supply sizing
I think we would all agree that a 200W power supply could cause problems. The question here is whether a 330W power supply is adequate. I have difficulty imagining a member of this forum designing a single-processor, single-graphics card system which would draw over 330W under real-world conditions.
The system you are suggesting would draw a maximum of 120W for the graphics card, according to the power consumption reviews for graphics consumption performed by xbitlabs:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/ ... n2006.html
Similarly, the maximum power draw for the FX-60 processor is 110W. This would still leave 100W for everything else. In any case, this is purely theoretical for almost everyone on this board. Any system which draws over 330W of power is going to be a beast to keep quiet.
In my case, by the time I can afford a CPU or graphics card offering the levels of performance available with the FX-60 or X1300 processors, the die sizes will have gotten smaller and these components will not require as much power. Based on the information provided by SilentPower, it seems fairly clear that he is not anticipating exotic (or even high-end) power requirements anytime soon.
The system you are suggesting would draw a maximum of 120W for the graphics card, according to the power consumption reviews for graphics consumption performed by xbitlabs:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/ ... n2006.html
Similarly, the maximum power draw for the FX-60 processor is 110W. This would still leave 100W for everything else. In any case, this is purely theoretical for almost everyone on this board. Any system which draws over 330W of power is going to be a beast to keep quiet.
In my case, by the time I can afford a CPU or graphics card offering the levels of performance available with the FX-60 or X1300 processors, the die sizes will have gotten smaller and these components will not require as much power. Based on the information provided by SilentPower, it seems fairly clear that he is not anticipating exotic (or even high-end) power requirements anytime soon.
What I found is that in order to have enough current on the 12V supplies, I had to go up to 500W+ supplies.
It's probably true that my rig never needs more than 300W, but the fact still remains that I can't exceed the current requirements of any of the rails. I can't just add up the watts, in other words.
At least that was my experience.
It's probably true that my rig never needs more than 300W, but the fact still remains that I can't exceed the current requirements of any of the rails. I can't just add up the watts, in other words.
At least that was my experience.
-
frugal_guy
- Posts: 41
- Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:30 pm
- Location: Tualatin, Oregon
I just searched froogle for seasonic s12 and found case-mod.com has the s12-330 for $46.25 and the s12-430 for $77.50.
I did notice that if you go to case-mod.com and just check their price list, but s12-430 does not show the sale price, but I would not worry about that. I purchased 2 s12-380 power supplies from case-mod (at $60) last December. On the second purchase, the regular price list did not show the sale price, but I still was able to get there through froogle. I highly recommend them.
I did notice that if you go to case-mod.com and just check their price list, but s12-430 does not show the sale price, but I would not worry about that. I purchased 2 s12-380 power supplies from case-mod (at $60) last December. On the second purchase, the regular price list did not show the sale price, but I still was able to get there through froogle. I highly recommend them.
-
tjpark1111
- Posts: 118
- Joined: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:45 pm
Power Supply Sizing
I agree that you cannot just add up the watts on all power supplies, however, the Seasonic S12-330 power supply which we have been discussing has 22 amps available on the 12V rail (12*22 = 264 watts). Since the processor and video card rely heavily on the 12V rail, most users will be able to add up the watts with this power supply, and with other power supplies which follow the "new" ATX12V v2.0 power supply standard which required more power on ther 12V rails.
As the ATX12V 2.0 power supply standard was introduced around two years ago, some people are still running power suppplies produced according to the earlier standard. Accordingly, it is entirely possible that a person with a high-quality ATX12V 1.x power supply at 330W would need to replace their power supply in order to run a high-end processor and graphics card. Such a person would probably perceive their problem as "not having enough power" instead of "not having the right kind of power" and, accordingly, it is understandable why this might cause them to upgrade to a higher-rated power supply than they actually need.
This is all particularly true for power supplies where the capacity of each of the individual rails total more than the rated capacity of the power supply. In this case, the sum of power available on the individual rails is 404W, subject to a 330W limit for the power supply as a whole. In other words, you can't have more than 330W, and you can't have it however you want, but you do have a good deal of flexibility in terms of how you draw your 330W total.
I would be interested in knowing whether anyone at SPCR with a single processor and a single video card has ever found that a Seasonic S12-330 power supply needed to be upgraded because it did not meet their needs. I realize that this problem is technically possible, however, I am just wondering if it has ever happened.
As the ATX12V 2.0 power supply standard was introduced around two years ago, some people are still running power suppplies produced according to the earlier standard. Accordingly, it is entirely possible that a person with a high-quality ATX12V 1.x power supply at 330W would need to replace their power supply in order to run a high-end processor and graphics card. Such a person would probably perceive their problem as "not having enough power" instead of "not having the right kind of power" and, accordingly, it is understandable why this might cause them to upgrade to a higher-rated power supply than they actually need.
This is all particularly true for power supplies where the capacity of each of the individual rails total more than the rated capacity of the power supply. In this case, the sum of power available on the individual rails is 404W, subject to a 330W limit for the power supply as a whole. In other words, you can't have more than 330W, and you can't have it however you want, but you do have a good deal of flexibility in terms of how you draw your 330W total.
I would be interested in knowing whether anyone at SPCR with a single processor and a single video card has ever found that a Seasonic S12-330 power supply needed to be upgraded because it did not meet their needs. I realize that this problem is technically possible, however, I am just wondering if it has ever happened.
You have a good point there, and BigA did point out earlier that the individual rail's power output needs to be sufficient as well.TomZ wrote:What I found is that in order to have enough current on the 12V supplies, I had to go up to 500W+ supplies.
It's probably true that my rig never needs more than 300W, but the fact still remains that I can't exceed the current requirements of any of the rails. I can't just add up the watts, in other words.
At least that was my experience.
Just out of curiosity, how many amps do you think your system draws on the 12V rail?
I haven't done measurements yet, but Intel specifies that the +12V2 needs 16A continuous and 19A peak with my processor:lenny wrote:Just out of curiosity, how many amps do you think your system draws on the 12V rail?
http://support.intel.com/support/mother ... 022070.htm
That removed from consideration nearly all models <500W that I researched at the time. I never looked at total wattage as a consideration - I only looked at 12V capacity.
Very interesting
The technical reference manual for the d975xbx motherboard is at:
ftp://download.intel.com/design/motherb ... 1001US.pdf
The table in the technical reference manual which gives the 19A/12V requirement states that this is a minimum value and that the maximum loading for the motherboard is 46A/12V (750W total for all rails). This information is on page 73 of the technical reference manual for your motherboard which also states that the electrical requirement for your motherboard is:
"... based on a DC analysis of all active components within the board that impact its power delivery subsystems. The analysis does not include PCI add-in cards. Minimum values assume a light load placed on the board that is similar to an environment with no applications running and no USB current draw. Maximum values assume a load placed on the board that is similar to a heavy gaming environment with a 500 mA current draw per USB port. These calculations are not based on specific processor values or memory configurations but are based on the minimum and maximum current draw possible from the board’s power delivery subsystems to the processor, memory, and USB ports. Use the datasheets for add-in cards, such as PCI, to determine the overall system power requirements. The selection of a power supply at the system level is dependent on the system’s usage model and not necessarily tied to a particular processor clock frequency."
While the motherboard specification seems to require a large power supply, it is unclear whether the motherboard will actually use this much power. How can this reconcile with all of the SPCR reviews which keep telling us that the largest power usage encountered in the SPCR labs is around 250W?
ftp://download.intel.com/design/motherb ... 1001US.pdf
The table in the technical reference manual which gives the 19A/12V requirement states that this is a minimum value and that the maximum loading for the motherboard is 46A/12V (750W total for all rails). This information is on page 73 of the technical reference manual for your motherboard which also states that the electrical requirement for your motherboard is:
"... based on a DC analysis of all active components within the board that impact its power delivery subsystems. The analysis does not include PCI add-in cards. Minimum values assume a light load placed on the board that is similar to an environment with no applications running and no USB current draw. Maximum values assume a load placed on the board that is similar to a heavy gaming environment with a 500 mA current draw per USB port. These calculations are not based on specific processor values or memory configurations but are based on the minimum and maximum current draw possible from the board’s power delivery subsystems to the processor, memory, and USB ports. Use the datasheets for add-in cards, such as PCI, to determine the overall system power requirements. The selection of a power supply at the system level is dependent on the system’s usage model and not necessarily tied to a particular processor clock frequency."
While the motherboard specification seems to require a large power supply, it is unclear whether the motherboard will actually use this much power. How can this reconcile with all of the SPCR reviews which keep telling us that the largest power usage encountered in the SPCR labs is around 250W?
I would assume what is meant by Intel's maximum current guidance is that this is the maximum that could be expected to flow through the motherboard, to all the components, cards, etc. that require power. This doesn't mean the power supply needs to supply that much power of course.
How can I resolve these specifications relative to SPCR testing? Not sure, because I haven't read all the reviews. But I would guess that SPCR doesn't typically test high-end rigs. There is this implicit assumption that nobody who wants a quiet PC would also demand a fast processor and video card. But I think that some people are interested in both fast and quiet.
In my case, Intel specified a minimum amount of current, and since I want a very stable system, I followed that specification. I'm sure that Intel feels the numbers are reasonable and has data behind the recommendation. I don't think Intel have any financial interest in consumers overbuying power supplies.
How can I resolve these specifications relative to SPCR testing? Not sure, because I haven't read all the reviews. But I would guess that SPCR doesn't typically test high-end rigs. There is this implicit assumption that nobody who wants a quiet PC would also demand a fast processor and video card. But I think that some people are interested in both fast and quiet.
In my case, Intel specified a minimum amount of current, and since I want a very stable system, I followed that specification. I'm sure that Intel feels the numbers are reasonable and has data behind the recommendation. I don't think Intel have any financial interest in consumers overbuying power supplies.
Take a look here to see an S-12 330 at work.SilentPower wrote:Thanks for your help guys. This is just looking into the future, but what if I decided to upgrade to a 64-bit 4000+ processor later on, or overclock my current AthlonXP 2500+ to 3200+, or overclock my Geforce 6600GT, would the S12-330 take it? Or would I be better off with a 380 or 430?
Meantime our Seasonic reseller made another tests: one 7800GTX 512MB on an Venice 3000+ @2.65Ghz, 2X256MB @265Mhz 2-2-2-5, and on top of that 2x7800GTX 512MB in SLI and it works like a charm.
OK, I don't say that it will work 24/7 with overclock and SLI
, but it can handle that configuration.-
SilentPower
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:41 am
Well I got my S12-330 today. Quick right? They were in New Jersey and I'm in New York. Well it is superb, they should call it the SilentSonic. Finally I can get some peace and quiet. Now if only they could make quiet hard drives, cause that's all that I hear now. Thanks for all your recommendations.
-
SilentPower
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:41 am
-
NeilBlanchard
- Moderator
- Posts: 7681
- Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:11 pm
- Location: Maynard, MA, Eaarth
- Contact:
-
MikeC
- Site Admin
- Posts: 12285
- Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
- Contact:
I'd be surprised if it was coming from the PSU. Nothing in there should make a cyclical sound every 15 mins. That's plain weird.SilentPower wrote:So much for the superbness of this PSU, it's making some annyoying sound every 15 minutes or so. I don't know how to describe it, sort of like a 2 second skidding sound. Anyone hear of this? Do you think it needs oil in it's fan, these models have been in stock for awhile.
Check out the source of the sound more carefully, maybe just hang right next to the thing listening with the case cover open so you can have a chance to hear where it's coming from. Chances are, it might have been there all along, masked by other noise. Maybe you have a Hitachi HDD that does a head reset after idle every once ina while.
-
SilentPower
- Posts: 9
- Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2006 3:41 am
Well I was thinking it might be the new PSU or one of my two hard drives, but I started hearing that sound soon after I installed the PSU, so the chances it's my hard drives is low. I might return it as defective if oil doesn't help. I do have the computer open at ear level but it is still difficult to pinpoint if it's really the PSU.
I used to have a PSU that started off with a very loud churning sound as soon as I turned on the computer and lasted for a minute or sometimes more. Somebody told me to peel off the sticker in the middle of the fan and put oil there and it did stop it from doing that.
I used to have a PSU that started off with a very loud churning sound as soon as I turned on the computer and lasted for a minute or sometimes more. Somebody told me to peel off the sticker in the middle of the fan and put oil there and it did stop it from doing that.
You could do a fan swap on it and see if that solves it, but that will void your warranty. I'd return it (if you can), as you say the S12-330 has been out for a while, so your specific unit may possibly have been sitting on a shelf somewhere gathering dust for a couple of years before you bought it.I used to have a PSU that started off with a very loud churning sound as soon as I turned on the computer and lasted for a minute or sometimes more. Somebody told me to peel off the sticker in the middle of the fan and put oil there and it did stop it from doing that.