255W power supply in the 80 Plus "Gold" category

[W3ird_N3rd]

Welcome to SPCR W3ird_N3rd

That is an interesting point you make about fans. Does anyone know if these power supplies are tested with or without a fan? What I mean is that at 20% that Fortron PSU managed ~89% efficiency with a 115V current. Sure a fan doesn't use 6w, but it may well use 1w (I've had fans rated at >4w...) and a 1w decrease would push this power supply to >90.5% efficiency... Then I would plug it in to a 230V wall socket here in Sweden

I don't think it would even be 1W at a 20% load, at least if it has a good fan controller in it. There would be very little heat generated so the fan should be at a minimal speed. An old Panaflo 80mm fan is rated for 0.1A at 12V which is 1.2W. At 12V, it's moving way faster than any good PSU should be running it's fan at a low load. So I would guess no more than 0.5W max at lower loads could be attributed to the fan. That's just a guess without actually doing any measurements of course.

0.5W would still be quite a bit assuming a good fan controller.

I also wonder if they will be more or less efficient when used with 230V. But nobody has got a clue if/when it'll be available?

[MikeC]

Hey guys, just a quick reality check --

In your quest for high efficiency, you may be losing sight of simple things. Like that 0.5~1W a fan might pull in the PSU at idle... it might mean a percent difference in efficiency, but that doesn't change the fact that it's just a half watt. At 50W load, a huge (and generally expensive) improvement from 85% to 90% is only 58.8W vs 55.5W -- 3.3W. At lower power, say 30W, for PC with mobile parts and SSD, it's about half this. Leaving the PC off a few minutes more every day will give you more than this savings in energy.

It's always more efficient at 230VAC input -- like 2~4%; efficiency difference is bigger at higher load.

[Tobias]

Sure thing, Mike, but the 80+ program isn't about the number of watts a power supply exhausts into the surroundings. Even the name of the program is chosen such that it is easy to believe that it refers to efficiency and efficiency only. In such a case half a watt does matter:) Besides, If I run a 20 w system and are able to exclude a fan that draws 0.5w, that is 2.5% efficiency right there:)

[W3ird_N3rd]

Hey guys, just a quick reality check --

In your quest for high efficiency, you may be losing sight of simple things. Like that 0.5~1W a fan might pull in the PSU at idle... it might mean a percent difference in efficiency, but that doesn't change the fact that it's just a half watt. At 50W load, a huge (and generally expensive) improvement from 85% to 90% is only 58.8W vs 55.5W -- 3.3W. At lower power, say 30W, for PC with mobile parts and SSD, it's about half this. Leaving the PC off a few minutes more every day will give you more than this savings in energy.

It's always more efficient at 230VAC input -- like 2~4%; efficiency difference is bigger at higher load.

First of all, those slightly less efficient PSUs are not easy to find either. Say an FSP300-60EPN(80) that's bronze, I can't find any place where they sell it. And I don't see many small PSUs with silver rating.

Second, I currently only have bunch of 400W or greater PSUs, and they are all several years old without any 80plus rating (they still might be 80plus with no rating but how could I know). When such a "big" PSU has to deliver just 50 watts (12.5%), it's in general quite inefficient. If I'm going to buy something new, I would prefer to get the best right away.

If not for those 3 watts, let it be for the silence. If not for the silence, let it be just because it makes me feel better to buy something really good. I paid almost a thousand euros for my display, but I've enjoyed it nearly every day over the last three, almost four years. For some devices, I prefer spending some more to get something really good. My power supply is one of those devices.

[Mats]

If not for those 3 watts, let it be for the silence.

High efficiency doesn't equal silence. There are lots of PSU's that delivers both high efficiency and noise.
And then there are PSU's like the Nexus Value 430, which is not one of the most efficient models, but still the most quiet PSU with a fan tested at SPCR.

[MikeC]

Besides, If I run a 20 w system and are able to exclude a fan that draws 0.5w, that is 2.5% efficiency right there:)

It only matters if you're looking at those % numbers. In real world terms, that half watt is still just half a watt.

IMO, looking at efficiency in % numbers is misleading at lower power levels, and anything less than a few W is basically meaningless, you can't be sure how much measurement error and sample variance might creep in, and turning on/off one light a few minutes earlier /later is enough to offset it.

[elpibe10]

High efficiency doesn't equal silence. There are lots of PSU's that delivers both high efficiency and noise.
And then there are PSU's like the Nexus Value 430, which is not one of the most efficient models, but still the most quiet PSU with a fan tested at SPCR.

Just curious ... why bother with the Nexus Value 430 when there is a fanless PSU available that is more efficient and totally silent ?

Eg. FSP Zen 400W (Fanless / 80PLUS Bronze certified)

I've been using it for quite a while now and it's been totally awesome. Others who have bought from NewEgg are equally satisfied with it too.

[Mats]

Just curious ... why bother with the Nexus Value 430 when there is a fanless PSU available that is more efficient and totally silent ?

I wasn't talking about fanless PSU's, but since you're asking I might as well give you an answer.
The pros and cons of using a fanless PSU have been discussed many times here at SPCR.
I see no advantage of using a fanless if the fanless model cost more than the one with a fan, and I can't hear the fan in the latter anyway.
Regarding Zen vs Value 430 it's pretty obvious to me: the Zen cost twice as much here, and both will be apparently silent in real world use.

PSU's will last longer if the components temperatures are being kept within certain limits, that makes another reason for using a PSU with a fan.
The fan in the PSU can also help exhausting warm air from the case, of course up to a certain limit if you don't want increased noise.

elpibe10: Why bother paying twice as much just to get a fanless model if I can't hear any noise from either model anyway?

[elpibe10]

I wasn't talking about fanless PSU's, but since you're asking I might as well give you an answer.
The pros and cons of using a fanless PSU have been discussed many times here at SPCR.
I see no advantage of using a fanless if the fanless model cost more than the one with a fan, and I can't hear the fan in the latter anyway.
Regarding Zen vs Value 430 it's pretty obvious to me: the Zen cost twice as much here, and both will be apparently silent in real world use.

PSU's will last longer if the components temperatures are being kept within certain limits, that makes another reason for using a PSU with a fan.
The fan in the PSU can also help exhausting warm air from the case, of course up to a certain limit if you don't want increased noise.

elpibe10: Why do you think I should pay twice as much just to get a fanless model if I can't hear any noise from either model anyway?

Not if it is twice the price. Over in the U.S., the price is decently close so IMO the Zen would be an obvious choice. With its 80Plus Bronze efficiency & 100% silence, it just doesn't make any sense to go for the Nexus 430W. Again ... this is only true for people who purchase in the U.S. (even for people who don't live there like myself).

BTW, you'll be amazed how cool the Zen ran even without any fan. I'm sure FSP has taken that into consideration especially after learning from their mistakes with the Zen 300W.

[Mats]

BTW, you'll be amazed how cool the Zen ran even without any fan.

How do you know that, without opening the PSU? It's pretty obvious that a fanless PSU can feel cooler since there's no fan that blows the hot air out of the case.
It's just like putting the hand against the exhaust fan on a computer case, you feel hot air coming out. If you stop the fan then you don't feel any hot air. Is the latter situation better?
A PSU with a cool enclosure is not the same thing as a PSU with cool components.
I also forgot to mention that while a PSU with a fan can help keeping the rest of the computer cool, the fanless PSU can sometimes do the opposite: the computer heats up the PSU which have no fan that can exhast the heat.

The 80+ Bronze certificate requires a minimum of 82%, 85% and 82 % when running at 20 %, 50% and 80% load, respectively.
SPCR's review shows that the Value 430 have an efficiency of about 80%, 83% and 82%. That's not really a big difference.

[MikeC]

The 80+ Bronze certificate requires a minimum of 82%, 85% and 82 % when running at 20 %, 50% and 80% load, respectively.
SPCR's review shows that the Value 430 have an efficiency of about 80%, 83% and 82%. That's not really a big difference.

Slight error -- it's 100% load. Nexus 430 misses 80% -- by very little, 79.6%.

Actually, here's another opportunity for me to point out the single glaring flaw in the 80 Plus program. They test PSUs at 100% load in normal room temperature, typically 22-25C. This means PSUs with inferior parts that won't survive 50C pass, as do PSUs with much higher quality parts that will survive 50C+. Because this test is so lax regarding operating environment temperature, there's no way to differentiate between the different classes of PSUs. Admittedly, the bronze, silver & gold ratings help, but even there, more demanding temperature control during testing would really further differentiate higher/lower quality products.

80 Plus will probably never change their test procedure, however. They have too many products that have passed and the program is making $ for them. It would mean retesting everything, and most likely, 2/3s of the passed units would fail. Why mess with the goose when the eggs are golden already, right?

[Mats]

MikeC, you're right x 2.
SPCR's test rig seems more relevant to me: the PSU gets some the heat from the testing equipment, and some heat goes through the case fan.

[elpibe10]

How do you know that, without opening the PSU? It's pretty obvious that a fanless PSU can feel cooler since there's no fan that blows the hot air out of the case.
It's just like putting the hand against the exhaust fan on a computer case, you feel hot air coming out. If you stop the fan then you don't feel any hot air. Is the latter situation better?
A PSU with a cool enclosure is not the same thing as a PSU with cool components.
I also forgot to mention that while a PSU with a fan can help keeping the rest of the computer cool, the fanless PSU can sometimes do the opposite: the computer heats up the PSU which have no fan that can exhast the heat.

The 80+ Bronze certificate requires a minimum of 82%, 85% and 82 % when running at 20 %, 50% and 80% load, respectively.
SPCR's review shows that the Value 430 have an efficiency of about 80%, 83% and 82%. That's not really a big difference.

Haha ... I actually did open it up to know for sure that it isn't hot.

Anyway, I'm not trying to sell you the Zen but I do hope that you're not being a victim of your own paradigm.

I'm sure Nexus 430W is a silent PSU but it is still very new and reliability is unproven. The Zen 400W has been around for quite a while now and the 3 units I have (at home and work) are performing like tanks.

Efficiency : If the Nexus is indeed performing as well as what SPCR has shown, then it should be getting a Bronze certification. Let's not forget that some companies send out 'golden sample' for reviews. I'm not saying that they did that but do take review results with a pinch of salt.

[elpibe10]

Another thing I need to add ...

I hope some of the users here can sometimes look out of the box.

It seems like whenever SPCR claims that a product is the quietest, then users here will blindly proclaim that that product is the best without actually realizing that there are other products out there that could be better but have not been reviewed here.

I'm not trying to start a flame war or anything but I hope users all over the world (including those in my country) can stop being so gullible at times :

Not all reviews are legitimate and even if they are, not all samples sent for reviews are 'similar' to the products on the shelf.

... and do realize the fact that there are other products out there that has not been reviewed (for whatever reason) and some of them could actually be better.

[MikeC]

I doubt many readers "blindly proclaim" anything based on SPCR reviews-- or deafly, to be more apropos. Most readers of SPCR are far too critical to do this. The main reason people tend to stick to products positively-reviewed here is that they're safe bets for quiet. Over the years, SPCR reviews have been quite reliable in noise assessments. Sure, other products might be as good and as quiet, but most people don't want to be guinea pigs. Hence, most people buy what we recommend, which they then recommend to others.

I've also commented in the past about reviewers getting so-called golden samples: I just don't think it's true, not for us, not for 99% of the samples we've received. The exceptions tend to be early production or pre-production samples, which more often than not, are actually noisier than later production samples, which are tweaked as a result of SPCR findings. Some PSU fans/controllers come to mind. One glaring exception is the Antec MX-1, hdd enclosure, our samples of which were very good, as were early production runs in the retail markets, but then were quickly criticized for a buzzy fan. This still holds today, afaik.

[Mats]

Anyway, I'm not trying to sell you the Zen but I do hope that you're not being a victim of your own paradigm.

Exactly what do you mean?

Zen used to be my first choice.
I can tell you that I've been looking at the Zen many times, but lately I've realized that a PSU with a fan is just as good if I can't hear it.
The first Zen have been reviewed here, I started a thread about the second version because I couldn't find any info about it here.

It seems like whenever SPCR claims that a product is the quietest, then users here will blindly proclaim that that product is the best without actually realizing that there are other products out there that could be better but have not been reviewed here.

I really don't know what you expect to see in SPCR's own forum, and it's pretty obvious that you couldn't have read many threads that I've started.

The majority of the SPCR readers just want to fix their noisy computers. They ask for help, and people here help them and recommend components that SPCR recommend.
What's wrong with that? It's not really the right situation to suggest a product that just "may be" better than what's recommended.
>99% of the readers here doesn't have the time or money to start hunting around for something better than what SPCR recommends.
(Now I have four sentences that ends with the word recommend.)

Before you reply to me again you should look inside the box and use the search function, or google, to see what people actually write about here (besides recommending SPCR reviewed products),
and to see that most things you mentioned in your last post have already been discussed.
Lets end the offtopic, start a new thread instead if you want to.

[the_noob]

Hi guys,
Been lurking for a while, registered just to post in this thread

I am making a HTPC/NAS/Web Server/family photo gallery and anything else I can tink of. Its going to be on all the time and so low power and low noise are the most important factors.

I'll just stick to the low power issue. In my area of the UK, using one of the cheapest electricity providers works out at about £1 per watt per year (i.e. continuous use, and 97p is the exact figure), so every watt counts. And I cannot see electricity getting cheaper either.

I am using an AMD 790GX mobo with a 5050e processor and 2GB ram and a pair of 500GB laptop drives. I am going to undervolt the processor to get power use down to a minimum.

The problem is that at idle this system will I hope use about 30 - 35 watts and at that low wattage a 400watt power supply is going to be really inefficient. So I want to get the lowest wattage and highest efficiency psu I can. But as mentioned several times in this thread, you just cannot get your hands on a 80+ gold 250 watt (or less) power supply.

So my question is, how can companies make a power supply and get gold certification, but apparently it is not in mass production? (if it was in mass production, surely it would be in the shops) I know quite a few friends that are, like me, very keen on getting their hands on a low wattage 80+ gold psu and would pay quite a bit over the odds for one, but you just cannot find them, even on the manufacturers web sites.

Makes me think that the psu's that get certified are hand made and hand picked and the real world mass produced versions are going to be pale shadows of them.

[Mats]

the_noob: Welcome to SPCR!

The reason why you won't see them in the stores is called OEM.
Those products are never meant to enter the PSU retail market, you will only find it in a retail computer, like a HP or Dell.

[BillyBuerger]

...

I'll just stick to the low power issue. In my area of the UK, using one of the cheapest electricity providers works out at about £1 per watt per year (i.e. continuous use, and 97p is the exact figure), so every watt counts. And I cannot see electricity getting cheaper either

....

The problem is that at idle this system will I hope use about 30 - 35 watts and at that low wattage a 400watt power supply is going to be really inefficient. So I want to get the lowest wattage and highest efficiency psu I can. But as mentioned several times in this thread, you just cannot get your hands on a 80+ gold 250 watt (or less) power supply.

Example @30W

Code: Select all

Efficiency  Wasted power
60%         12W
70%         9W
80%         6W
90%         3W

Most 80plus PSU should still be at about 70% efficient at 30W. And a 250W 80plus gold PSU only needs to be 87% efficient at 50W. By 30W, it's probably closer to 80%. So the difference between a standard 80 plus PSU and an 80 plus gold PSU at 30W is... 3W. Or £3 a year. The cost of that gold PSU would probably be a good chunk more than £3 so you'd have to keep this thing for many years to make up the difference.

MikeC seems to be making this same argument more recently. And I tend to agree. Yes, I want the best efficiency I can for me PC and would definitely not turn down the option to get a gold rated PSU. But at these low levels, the difference in even a 10% increase in efficiency ends up not really making that much of a difference in actual power.

[the_noob]

Hmm .. good point. Completely missed that .


Any 250 watt 80+ fanless (or indeed, semi fanless) psu's out there?

[W3ird_N3rd]

the_noob: Welcome to SPCR!

The reason why you won't see them in the stores is called OEM.
Those products are never meant to enter the PSU retail market, you will only find it in a retail computer, like a HP or Dell.

It's a damn shame.

What if we all start sending mail to Antec or another retail brand like that asking them to make this available on the retail market? Better yet, is there no chance SPCR could make some kind of petition to convince some retail brand? I suspect they don't even know there is a demand for this.

[yuu]

http://80plus.org/manu/psu/psu_detail.aspx?id=27&type=2

Another 235W is out, in fact 10 Gold Psu's from delta.

[edh]

Anyone know whether any of these supplies are available through retail yet? I can see quite a lot of these ending up in mass produced systems just due to large manufacturers having green commitments to look good for marketing reasons.

[dhanson865]

Since this thread seems to have degenerated into a discussion of Silver and Bronze as well I thought I'd mention the change in the Seasonic lineup that I noticed recently.

Seasonic S12II Bronze at 330, 380, 430, 500
Seasonic M12II Bronze at 500 only

They went from not being 80Plus at all to being bronze rated. They also changed the cableing on each model again. No telling if they changed the fan or fan controller.

They also dropped the modular 430W product. I'm assuming this is to avoid competing with themselves under the guise of Corsair branded products.

[line]

Yes... I noticed this change some time ago. Seems to be a worthy upgrade. Note how they upped the temperature rating of the (primary?) capacitor from 85C to 105C, matching the VX450W. I don't think this means much in practice, but it does show they're putting a heavy emphasis on component quality, or at least not taking the opportunity to cut corners.

They went from not being 80Plus at all to being bronze rated

They've always been 80 Plus certified, listed as SS-xxxGB & GM.

[dhanson865]

Yes... I noticed this change some time ago. Seems to be a worthy upgrade. Note how they upped the temperature rating of the (primary?) capacitor from 85C to 105C, matching the VX450W. I don't think this means much in practice, but it does show they're putting a heavy emphasis on component quality, or at least not taking the opportunity to cut corners.

They went from not being 80Plus at all to being bronze rated

They've always been 80 Plus certified, listed as SS-xxxGB & GM.

erg. For some values of always. My memory goes back to the days before the box was changed and the S12 series wasn't 80 Plus logod and even further back to when the S12 series (2005) didn't much break above 80% at the best of loads.

It's been a long time but the S12 series (2006) keeps changing 2007. Now get off my lawn.

[line]

How many revs did the original S12 go through? I think there were 3. There was the first revision, then the second with a ball bearing fan and a better cap. On the third revision they added sleeving but took away some perks like the RPM wire and the 5V fan adapter. Was that when they changed the box? I owned rev 2 and 3, and have been buying quality power supplies ever since.

[phusg]

the_noob: Welcome to SPCR!

The reason why you won't see them in the stores is called OEM.
Those products are never meant to enter the PSU retail market, you will only find it in a retail computer, like a HP or Dell.

It's a damn shame.

What if we all start sending mail to Antec or another retail brand like that asking them to make this available on the retail market? Better yet, is there no chance SPCR could make some kind of petition to convince some retail brand? I suspect they don't even know there is a demand for this.

Hi all, also looking for a <300W 90% efficient PSU, preferably with availability in Europe.

@ Mats
How do you mean? OEMs don't prevent other components entering retail...

@W3ird_N3rd
Good idea, it could very well be that they don't realize the demand... which retail brand should we target?

[sxr71]

The 80+ Bronze certificate requires a minimum of 82%, 85% and 82 % when running at 20 %, 50% and 80% load, respectively.
SPCR's review shows that the Value 430 have an efficiency of about 80%, 83% and 82%. That's not really a big difference.

Slight error -- it's 100% load. Nexus 430 misses 80% -- by very little, 79.6%.

Actually, here's another opportunity for me to point out the single glaring flaw in the 80 Plus program. They test PSUs at 100% load in normal room temperature, typically 22-25C. This means PSUs with inferior parts that won't survive 50C pass, as do PSUs with much higher quality parts that will survive 50C+. Because this test is so lax regarding operating environment temperature, there's no way to differentiate between the different classes of PSUs. Admittedly, the bronze, silver & gold ratings help, but even there, more demanding temperature control during testing would really further differentiate higher/lower quality products.

80 Plus will probably never change their test procedure, however. They have too many products that have passed and the program is making $ for them. It would mean retesting everything, and most likely, 2/3s of the passed units would fail. Why mess with the goose when the eggs are golden already, right?

The certification is for efficiency not quality. We are left to fend for ourselves on that front as usual.

Until we see a 50+ thermal certification, that will be the way it will be.

[zodaex]

Seasonic goes gold. ^^

those don't , um , don't look like sub 300 watt PSU's to me.

Owned!