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 Post subject: Micron RealSSD C400 and its Marvell 9174 SSD brethren
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 6:33 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
C400 was announced at CES. Sampling now. Here's the product page to compare vs the C300.


Surely this warrants its own thread. :mrgreen: Now to summarise the known data:

Anand says: Based on the same architecture as the C300, the C400 is a combination of IMFT 25nm NAND, a slightly tweaked controller and a significant improvement in firmware.

Read: 415MB/s
Sequential write: up to 260MB/s (256/512GB) or 175MB/s (128GB)

Write lifespan: 72 TB

512 GB: $825 ($1.611 per GB but in bulk 1,000 unit quantities)
256 GB: $425
128 GB: $210
64 GB: over $100

Shipping: February

This should be worth getting excited about.


Last edited by Eunos on Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Micron RealSSD C400
PostPosted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 7:43 pm 
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Eunos wrote:
CA_Steve wrote:
C400 was announced at CES. Sampling now. Here's the product page to compare vs the C300.


Surely this warrants its own thread. :mrgreen: Now to summarise the known data:

This should be worth getting excited about.


Yes, and Yes

btw here is my first post about the C400 from another SPCR thread

dhanson865 wrote:
CA_Steve wrote:
C400 was announced at CES. Sampling now. Here's the product page to compare vs the C300.


http://cache.micron.com/Protected/expir ... _brief.pdf

C400V = 64GB there are several part numbers but I'll be tracking the 2.5" version 7mm or 9mm whichever is cheaper
MTFDDAC064MAM-1J1 or MTFDDAK064MAM-1J1

C400 again several part numbers but I'll be tracking prices on the 2.5" 7mm or 9mm whichever is cheaper:
128GB MTFDDAC128MAM-1J1 or MTFDDAK128MAM-1J1
256GB MTFDDAC256MAM-1K1 or MTFDDAK256MAM-1K1
512GB MTFDDAC512MAM-1K1 or MTFDDAK512MAM-1K1

fwiw J = 32Gb, MLC, x8, 3.3V, (25nm) and K = 64Gb, MLC, x8, 3.3V, (25nm) flash chips. The 64GB and 128GB drives use the same flash, then the 256 and 512 GB drives use the higher capacity flash.

still no prices on Google Products search though.

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 Post subject: Re: Micron RealSSD C400
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:13 am 
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Micron claims at least 72TB of writes until failure for this new C400 drive, the same as the C300, which they claim was conservatively specced.
I have doubts about the drive lifespan on the new 25nm process, considering the 40% lower (than the 34nm) NAND cell lifespan.
FWIW my Intel G2 has less than 1TB of writes on it and claims to have used only 1% of its lifespan.
I hope the NAND manufacturers won't eventually reveal that the published lifespans aren't true...


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 Post subject: Re: Micron RealSSD C400
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:23 am 
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Tzupy wrote:
Micron claims at least 72TB of writes until failure for this new C400 drive, the same as the C300, which they claim was conservatively specced.

I have doubts about the drive lifespan on the new 25nm process, considering the 40% lower (than the 34nm) NAND cell lifespan.
FWIW my Intel G2 has less than 1TB of writes on it and claims to have used only 1% of its lifespan.
I hope the NAND manufacturers won't eventually reveal that the published lifespans aren't true...


Given that uneven writes (imperfect wear leveling) would cause problems with a SSD well before the entire drive is worn out I would expect them to over-provision and conservatively spec a SSD.

If your R&D team, marketing, lawyers, etcetera didn't cover their but on this you'd be hearing about it all over the place.

Newegg reviews for C300 still remain overwhelmingly positive 10 months after release. I suppose we'll have a another year or two to go before we'll have in the wild failure numbers but did you see this quote?

Quote:
Micron also mentioned to me that it writes more than 72TB of data to its drives during development, so this is a verified rating.


Notice they didn't say how much over 72TB.

Also remember that the more free space you leave for the controller to use for background operations the longer the drive will last see

http://intelstudios.edgesuite.net/idf/2 ... S003/f.htm around the 16 minute mark (slide 19) they took 160GB X-25M Gen 2 drives and formatted them differently and ran them to first failure in an accelerated write scenario single user wouldn't ever see

Code:
Formatted    TB Written
Capacity     before failure
160GB         29
144GB         68
128GB        104
_96GB        150


The thing is write amplification means more writes internally than what is reported by the OS so extra free space significantly increases the life expectancy of the flash. The only thing Micron or any other SSD manufacturer has to do to offset 25nm flash lifetime issues is put more in (it offsets the cost advantage but it's worth it because the benefit isn't linear). And that's before you consider:

Improving the controller
Improving firmware
Increasing cache
Any Driver/OS changes to reduce writes

from 19 minutes page 21

* Write workload impacts WAF (Write Amplification Factor) and thus endurance

* Increasing transfer sizes of random write workloads generally decreases WAF and increases endurance

* (I'll paraphrase the 3rd bullet) Endurance varies by use and no one can definitively say how long a drive will last. Actual quote "Only way to really forecast what an SSDs endurance will be is to measure it under the targeted workload"

They made it clearer in the 2009 IDF but the presentation is no longer available on the Intel website so I had to pick from data in the 2010 IDF.

knowing all the ins and outs of SSDs and warranty policies I'm willing to take Marvell/Micron/Crucial at their word. If they say endurance won't be an issue on the C400 I expect that means for 95+% of us it won't be. I'm thinking they hedged their bets enough that you and I won't notice the negative difference between 25nm and 34nm flash.

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 Post subject: Re: Micron RealSSD C400
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:26 am 
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I also expect edurance won't be an issue for most people but...
dhanson865 wrote:
If your R&D team, marketing, lawyers, etcetera didn't cover their but on this you'd be hearing about it all over the place.

Not sure about that. No one is holding them accountable or even verifying their claims for the public's benefit. Hard drives manufacturers for instance have been getting away with misleading reliability numbers for quite some time. And, unlike SSDs so far, lots of people have spent and/or lost real money over the issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Micron RealSSD C400
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:22 pm 
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HFat wrote:
Not sure about that.


well if I'm wrong it won't be the first time.

BTW for any one that saw this thread and didn't notice it there is a new firmware that improves performance and lowers power consumption on the C300. I posted the change log at viewtopic.php?f=7&t=57904&p=529484#p529484

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 Post subject: Re: Micron RealSSD C400
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:46 pm 
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Hey, maybe there will be a fire sale on the C300's as retailers rush to clear shelves for the C400 :D

I look at these drives with geeky lust in my heart. The irony is I keep waiting for either the 128GB drives to drop significantly in price or for the random write speed of the 64GB to significantly improve.

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 Post subject: Re: Micron RealSSD C400
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:29 pm 
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In 2010 the Marvell controller in the C300 was only in the C300, now the same or very similar controller will also be in the C400 and others:

C300
C400 aka M4 (C400 is retail and M4 is OEM)
Corsair Performance 3
Plextor PX-M2

possibly others to come (look for mention of Marvell 9174 controller)

@Eunos, shall we change the name of the thread, keep it the same and add the other drives here, or would you prefer I put this info in another thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Micron RealSSD C400 and its Marvell 9174 SSD brethren
PostPosted: Tue Feb 22, 2011 3:32 pm 
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Micron C400 (Crucial m4) 25nm SSD Update

To avoid any concerns over 25nm NAND, several SSD manufacturers are trying to get out ahead of their impending SSD releases with consumer updates on their implementation of 25nm NAND. Micron has updated us with details surrounding their new SATA 6Gb/s C400 SSD, and the consumer equivalent Crucial m4 SSD.

...

In terms of performance Micron broke a lot of records, and new ground, with the C300. The C400 builds on these achievements and delivers a projected 17% step up in performance, with up to 415MB/s writes and 260MB/s writes (512GB C400). Not bad, considering we've seen only modest speed changes on most 25nm NAND SSD spec sheets. Micron has an advantage though since they use their own NAND and probably have a deeper understanding of NAND than any other SSD manufacturer; Intel, Samsung and Toshiba excluded.

Endurance is the other issue consumers fear when talking about 25nm NAND. 34nm NAND is generally rated for 5,000 write cycles, which turns out is about five times what consumers needed out of SSDs. 25nm NAND hits around 3,000 write cycles, which still exceeds average usage, even if it is less than before. But write cycles themselves don't translate very well - buyers need a better metric to understand the longevity of their SSD. To that end, Micron and some other manufacturers are starting to move toward better transparency by disclosing drive endurance in terms of total bytes written (TBW). Intel has talked about TBW for their SSDs for a while and last year Western Digital joined the party by listing the amount of data a user could write to the SiliconEdge SSD. Even so there are fewer than a handful of SSD manufacturers participating by sharing this endurance data.

StorageReview full article


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 Post subject: Re: Micron RealSSD C400 and its Marvell 9174 SSD brethren
PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:27 am 
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Anandtech has completed its C400 review.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4253/the- ... ssd-review

I'm not sure whether to call the m4 an evolutionary upgrade in performance or a shift in performance. Write speed is faster across the board, but read speed took a definite hit compared to the C300. Overall Crucial has a faster drive on its hands, one that's particularly well suited to most of our lighter workloads. It's only in our new for 2011 heavy multitasking workload that the m4 really fell short. For your average desktop usage model, the m4 is either the best or second best you can get.



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