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 Post subject: Heatsink in a tower case - stress from gravity??
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:34 pm 
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Hey all...

So I'm using the stock heatsink/fan with my Q9550/Socket 775 chip, and it cools okay, but not the best.

I'm looking at things like the Scythe Ninja Mini, etc. but looking at them, when mounted in a tower case (with the heatsink sticking out at a 90 degree angle from the case, inside), it *looks* like it would cause an awful lot of stress on the mounting/motherboard, given the weight of these larger heatsinks. It LOOKS like they were meant to mount vertically instead, somehow.

Has anyone found that mounting these larger heatsinks in a tower case causes undue stress on the motherboard PCB, or otherwise caused the heatsink to detach and list from its 90 degree angle after a time?

- Tim


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:54 am 
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Hi

Most of the larger heatsinks have backplates to counteract any adverse effects that there extra height/weight may cause. These backplates spread the load over a larger area hence reducing the stress in the m/b, whether these are really needed or not I cannot say but they certainly can't hurt.

OTOH I personally have not read of a single occurrence of a heatsink falling off the m/b due to self weight (although I'm sure it could happen if you tried hard enough).


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:00 am 
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If you are concerned about that, I would recommend the Xigmatek S1283. It lighter than most of its direct competitors. I run mine without a fan, so it is even lighter (I have am Antec Mini P180 top case fan running on slow speed that is reasonably close to the heatsink).

However, I believe that if you have an Intel system, there are two mounting options (one with push pins and the other a lot more secure). Obviously the push pin mounting is not as strong as the more secure mounting method (the AMD mounting bracket is very secure).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 1:23 am 
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Aard wrote:
Hi

Most of the larger heatsinks have backplates to counteract any adverse effects that there extra height/weight may cause. These backplates spread the load over a larger area hence reducing the stress in the m/b, whether these are really needed or not I cannot say but they certainly can't hurt.

OTOH I personally have not read of a single occurrence of a heatsink falling off the m/b due to self weight (although I'm sure it could happen if you tried hard enough).

I don't think that the only concern is "falling off" the motherboard, but maybe if the HS is heavy enough it could cause less than optimum pressure of the HS against the CPU. This might be more prone to happen over time or when the case was jolted.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 3:17 am 
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m0002a wrote:
I don't think that the only concern is "falling off" the motherboard, but maybe if the HS is heavy enough it could cause less than optimum pressure of the HS against the CPU. This might be more prone to happen over time or when the case was jolted.


Provided adequate installation force and a decent mounting system I can't foresee of any reasonable reason why this would happen. Although I wouldn't describe push pins a decent mounting system...


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 Post subject: Re: Heatsink in a tower case - stress from gravity??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:35 am 
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tbessie wrote:
I'm looking at things like the Scythe Ninja Mini, etc. but looking at them, when mounted in a tower case (with the heatsink sticking out at a 90 degree angle from the case, inside), it *looks* like it would cause an awful lot of stress on the mounting/motherboard, given the weight of these larger heatsinks. It LOOKS like they were meant to mount vertically instead, somehow.


The term you want to be looking for is cantilever force.

At 500g a heatsink isn't going to have too much. At about 700g you start to see the use of backplates to spread the force across a larger area. Some people get into 900 to 1200 gram heatsinks but I wouldn't touch those unless I was looking for an insane overclock and that just isn't me.

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 Post subject: Re: Heatsink in a tower case - stress from gravity??
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 8:53 am 
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dhanson865 wrote:
tbessie wrote:
I'm looking at things like the Scythe Ninja Mini, etc. but looking at them, when mounted in a tower case (with the heatsink sticking out at a 90 degree angle from the case, inside), it *looks* like it would cause an awful lot of stress on the mounting/motherboard, given the weight of these larger heatsinks. It LOOKS like they were meant to mount vertically instead, somehow.


The term you want to be looking for is cantilever force.

At 500g a heatsink isn't going to have too much. At about 700g you start to see the use of backplates to spread the force across a larger area. Some people get into 900 to 1200 gram heatsinks but I wouldn't touch those unless I was looking for an insane overclock and that just isn't me.


Well, it looks like my current temperatures are around 46-50 degrees in the processor at idle, and I'd like to bring that down to the 20s or 30s if possible; not doing any overclocking, though.

Thanks for clarifying the name of that kind of force!

- Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:14 pm 
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fwiw if you want a cheatsheet of the HS that are under 700 grams with good recommendations:

Code:
Rec Heatsink/Fan                             Noise Fan V  °C Rise °C/W MP Height Weight

7.5 Xigmatek HDT-SD964 (vs Ninja Mini)($40)  21   12      20      0.26     133   466  (???+fan)

7.5 Asus Triton 75, Nexus 120         ($45)  22   12      18      0.24    90/115 473  (350+fan)
7.5 Scythe Andy with stock fan        ($45)  20   12      16      0.21   125/150 685  (???+fan)
7.5 Xigmatek HDT-D1284 (Scythe Andy beats this)           20      0.26   150/175 667  (???+fan)

7.5 Scythe Ninja Mini, stock fan      ($40)  22    9      21      0.27     115   678  (580+fan)
7.5 Scythe Ninja Mini, stock fan      ($40)  28   12      19      0.24     115   678  (580+fan)
    Scythe Ninja Mini, Nexus 92       ($??)  20   12      ??      0.2??    115   678  (580+fan)
    Scythe Ninja Mini, 92mm fan ~23dBA($??)  22   12      ??      0.??     115   678  (580+fan)

 9  Xigmatek HDT-S1283                ($40)  22   12      13      0.17     159   600  (???+fan)
 9  Thermalright HR-01 Plus, Nexus 120($55)  22   12      13      0.17     160        (600+fan)


Height is heatsink/combined height or if centered the fan doesn't add to height. For the ones with a / you will want an additional 25mm or greater clearance for airflow.

Links to the reviews are on the right of this page http://www.silentpcreview.com/article30-page1.html where it says Reviewed in blue. But if it didn't make the list above you may want to skip it due to price, weight, or some other factor (I don't always keep notes on why I cut one from my short list but I do spend serious time at least twice a year reviewing my lists).

Don't forget to check to see if it will fit in your case and on your motherboard. And don't assume that just because the heatsink is recommended that the fan is perfect. You may have to deal with fan controllers, fixed voltage adapters, or swap fans for a better fan to get the quiet you want (If quiet is as important to you as cool is)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 5:46 am 
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I hardly think the Minja is something to worry about... Even the full size Ninja and Ninja 2 aren't too bad as most of the real weight is in the base.

Back when I had a TRUE, I did fabricate a bracket as all the weight is further out from the board (~2lbs!).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:18 am 
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Here is the disclaimer of one HS supplier:

"Maximum weight specified [by a CPU manufacturer] for a cooler is 450 gram for Intel Socket 775 and AMD AM2/754/939/940. Special care and attention must be taken when moving a computer equipped with a cooler exceeding the specified weight limit. Nexus Technology is not responsible for any damage that occurs when moving a computer."


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 7:35 pm 
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I have an HR01+ and there is no perceptible stress effects, even with a fan on it.

Quote:
Well, it looks like my current temperatures are around 46-50 degrees in the processor at idle, and I'd like to bring that down to the 20s or 30s if possible; not doing any overclocking, though.


Unless you have a very low ambient I don't think you'll get a Q9550 into the 20's even using SpeedStep using air cooling. Low to mid 30's though are quite possible at idle. My 9650 idles at stock with the HR01 (no fan, stock speeds) at about 34C.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 10:06 am 
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dhanson865 wrote:
fwiw if you want a cheatsheet of the HS that are under 700 grams with good recommendations:

[ snippage ]




Thanks much for all your recommendations (and to everybody else who made suggestions)!

I ended up getting a Ninja Mini - I'll see how that fares, using its normal Socket 775 pushpins... I have my doubts, but we'll see how it works out.

If it doesn't, I'll probably try one of those recommended Xigmatech (sp?) heatsinks, or similar, that use a different mounting.

- Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 11:24 am 
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Do yourself a favor and get a bolt-thru kit. It's a must! I've got a Minja with a Thermalright Bolt-Thru kit and it works very well.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:22 pm 
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yamahaSHO wrote:
Do yourself a favor and get a bolt-thru kit. It's a must! I've got a Minja with a Thermalright Bolt-Thru kit and it works very well.


So the relatively flimsy bracket the Ninja Mini comes with can take the strain of the bolt-thru kit well? It feels kind of lightweight.

- Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 12:38 pm 
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Just do it...


People have been using the bolt-thru kits on full sized Ninja's for a long time now.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 2:57 pm 
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yamahaSHO wrote:
Just do it...


People have been using the bolt-thru kits on full sized Ninja's for a long time now.


Damn, ya made me! :-)

I was hoping to put the Ninja Mini on tonight and finally close the case up (it's been sitting around open for a couple of weeks as I tweaked it).

Now I gotta wait another week to get the bracket. Grr. :-)

- Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:04 pm 
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tbessie wrote:
yamahaSHO wrote:
Just do it...


People have been using the bolt-thru kits on full sized Ninja's for a long time now.


Damn, ya made me! :-)

I was hoping to put the Ninja Mini on tonight and finally close the case up (it's been sitting around open for a couple of weeks as I tweaked it).

Now I gotta wait another week to get the bracket. Grr. :-)

- Tim


Haha... I wasn't sure how you'd take my last response. Honestly, I don' think you'll be dissappointed. It is a nice secure fit with good clamping force.

If you were located in the same area as me, I'd give you one of my spares.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 3:32 pm 
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yamahaSHO wrote:
tbessie wrote:
yamahaSHO wrote:
Just do it...


People have been using the bolt-thru kits on full sized Ninja's for a long time now.


Damn, ya made me! :-)

I was hoping to put the Ninja Mini on tonight and finally close the case up (it's been sitting around open for a couple of weeks as I tweaked it).

Now I gotta wait another week to get the bracket. Grr. :-)

- Tim


Haha... I wasn't sure how you'd take my last response. Honestly, I don' think you'll be dissappointed. It is a nice secure fit with good clamping force.

If you were located in the same area as me, I'd give you one of my spares.


Kind of you to offer anyway. :-)

No problem - FedEx thing says it should get here on Saturday.

- Tim


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 Post subject: Okay, temps around in low-mid 30s
PostPosted: Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:52 pm 
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Thanks for all your suggestions, folks! The Ninja Mini is working out nicely.

- Tim


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:19 am 
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I have been using a Scythe Ninja (not the mini) with an AeroCool 120mm fan on all my rigs since my socket 754, and am using it currently on an AM2 set up. I constantly am moving my rig off my desk to work on or build other PC's, and even haul it out to LAN parties. I have never had any problems related to this HSF.


Last edited by Pagan Wizard on Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:28 am 
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oops.....sorry.........double post.


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