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 Post subject: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 6:25 am 
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Hi all.

The setup will be a GA-890GPA-UD3H motherboard, AMD Phenom II X6 1100T 3.3 GHz CPU (socket AM3, 125 Watts) and a Cooler Master Silencio 550 case. There will be no overclocking but the room temeprature is usually warm.

The motherboard and case combination is not a very good one when it comes to space, as I have read from reviews that this motherboard is cluttered and the case has got foam on the side panel, which all decreases the space available for a CPU cooler!

The main aim is to use a cooler that is as quiet as possible. I am considering the Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus, however, space may be a problem as I wish to use all four memory slots on the motherboard. I have read that the cooler can be mounted in more than one direction, so it may be possible that it could be squeezed in. Would it be a problem if it pressed against the foam on the side panel of the case?

Anyhow, I then got to thinking that if it's the fan that generates the noise and not the heatsink itself, would it be better just to use the heatsink that comes with the CPU and attach a quiet fan instead? If this is not a good idea, then could I do better (and smaller) than a Hyper 212 Plus? As mentioned before, a quiet cooler is the main requirement as overclocking will not be carried out.

Thanks for any advice.

Update - Just received the case after having posted the above. The manual for the case states "Warning!! (CPU cooler installation): Please ensure that your CPU-cooler does NOT exceed 6.1-inch (154mm) height, it will cause damage to the side panel of the case and the CPU cooler. The Hyper 212 Plus is 158.50mm! I have searched these forums and the Xigmatek Gaia SD1283 seems to be an alternative. The Hyper TX seems small, but according to reviews I've read, the surface isn't very level and needs to be sanded down, which is an added pain when you just want to build a pc without having to do additional DIY! It is very important that I can use all four memory slots.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:08 am 
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You don't need to sand the TX cooler down..I'm not sure where all these tales come from but I've read most of them!
Some folks are under the impression you have to have a "mirror finish" on a bottom play on a CPU cooler. Having wasted time over the years playing around with this theory I can safely say using good quality thermal paste (which is designed to have good gap filling properties) you can safely dismiss these sand it down reports as nothing more than a good way to kill some time if you are bored..and not much else.

Some folks get a bit too worked up about things and take things too far. So nope you do not need to waste your time buffing the cooler plate up.

There are of course other coolers around but with cases such as this you'll have to keep follow their guidelines the 212 will be too big and it will touch the foam which you don't want! If you do go for a TX-3 I would suggest replacing the stock fan with a quieter alternative.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:31 pm 
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Hi Mr Spocko. Thanks for your reply and advice. I have carried out some measurements of my case and the overall width of the foam is around 15mm. I have a very slight temptation to just cut little holes where the little bits that stick out from the cooler would touch the foam. I wonder though if this would have any effect on the sound level. I wouldn't have thought a few small holes would make any difference. I also came across the Scythe Zipang and I ABSOLUTELY LOVED the reviews stating that it's almost as silent as a fanless cooler! It does however have a few disadvantages so I'm currently looking for something else without so many disadvantages but is 'almost as silent as a fanless cooler'. Lots of research to do now!!


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:33 am 
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Well you have to consider a few things I would not cut the foam myself but it's up to you on that one.

Whilst the Phenom II cpu is 125w it's a 6 core and isn't hard to tame temperature wise with any of these oversized coolers esp not since you say you are not overclocking. I like the 120mm fan CPU coolers too but in many cases they are simply too big for some cases. I've used the TX-3 quite a bit because it's well priced, easy to install...easy to remove (no need to remove board or have access to backplate on the board), no ram clearance issues, fans are standard ones again easy to replace and remove,and by simply picking a suitable 92mm fan you can make it pretty much undetectable noise wise.

I've started using Gelid 92mm Silent 9 fans for this cooler..and they can efffectively cool processors even the 6 core phenoms without even hitting 1000rpm and running very quietly even on full load. There are of course other makers and alternatives but folks are going for the big ones mostly because they've overclocking in some cases quite a bit..

I'd look around and see if you can get one that will fit the case witout attacking the foam.
There are loads of them around possibly we have too much choice on this!


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:46 am 
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Give a look to the Scythe Rasetsu (moreover the Zipang might be no more widely available).

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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:11 am 
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Hi Mr Spocko. The only thing stopping me from buying the TX3 is that it seems to require a high fan speed to keep cool, which increases the noise and at lower/quite fan speeds, the temperature rises a fair much compared to other coolers.

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.c ... 401&page=4

Would using a different fan, as you have suggested, cure this problem? If the memory slots weren't so close to the CPU area, I could have used a 92mm to 120mm adapter and used a 120mm fan instead, however, even the 92mm fan on the TX3 will be hanging completely over one memory module with only 1mm or 2mm clearance! I will have to remove the fan completely every time I wish to remove the RAM in the first slot. The fan will end just where the second RAM module begins.

Thanks for your suggestion, quest_for_silence. I have taken a look at it and the heat/noise at low speeds do not seem too bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 8:33 am 
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Traveller wrote:
the heat/noise at low speeds do not seem too bad.

I can argue it should be at least on par with the Zipang 2.

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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 9:12 am 
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Hi Traveller

I know that site and it can be useful to read at times but I note they do "simulated" tests not using actual processors.
Going on my last build with an AMD PhII 6 core (I've mostly used the 1090T CPU)

With a Gelid fan and using AS5 thermal paste at stock speeds I'm getting temps at idle with that CPU around the 29-33 degree mark and at full load we're around the 45-48 degrees celcius range. Obviously ambient temps will play a part in that. That's with the replacement fan not going over 1000rpm (basically you can't hear it) Those temps are actually pretty close to what I get with the 95W CPU's I've used probably because even though the 6 core is 125W it's using a larger die area thus the heat is less concentrated. The temps for the 4 core Ph II's are a bit higher again smaller die so they're a bit hotter than the 95W Athlon II ones' I've used.

Hope that's of some help I don't use the stock fan because I want a fan that cannot be noisy. You can of course tweek about with mobo fan settings/speeds. Temps wise we're well below any worry level not even near to it. The stock AMD cooler runs at a very high rpm which is annoying as hell. Whatever direction you take you'll be much happier than the stock cooler.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:30 am 
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Ok, thanks for all your advice and suggestions, Mr Spocko/quest_for_silence. It has all been appreciated.

I am leaning towards the TX3 at the moment.

Mr Spocko, since you're so worried about me cutting little holes in my case foam to accommodate a Hyper 212 Plus, I came across a better idea! See the final post in the following thread.

http://silentpcreview.com/forums/viewto ... 23&t=55785

Haha.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:23 am 
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Hmm not sure I like the sound of that! If you rupture a heat pipe that's it it's game over..

Looking around a bit I see Gelid have a new Rev 2 CPU cooler which says it's 74 (l) x 125 (w) x 153 (h) size wise and you can now mount it facing the rear case fan not just upwards (for AMD) Not tried Gelid's CPU coolers but it looks pretty decent and they're not a bad price either.

http://www.gelidsolutions.com/products/ ... d=64&tab=2
Just passing that one. I'd honestly pass on trying to squash a CPU cooler and just aim to get one that fits without hitting or crushing it!
I might try one of those myself because I quite like their fans.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:28 pm 
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Ok, so that's another one added to my list to consider! Thanks. It's only 1mm short of the maximum height specified by the case. It could be possible that it touched the foam as I've estimated the distance from the blue base frame screwed around the cpu socket on the motherboard to the foam to be 150mm. It would also hover over the first two RAM slots but my RAM would still fit in those slots. The specs state that it supports single, dual and quad core AMD cpu's. Is it not really a big deal that my CPU is 6 core? As with the Scythe Rasetsu suggested by quest_for_silence, the temps/noise look good.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:19 am 
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Traveller wrote:
As with the Scythe Rasetsu suggested by quest_for_silence, the temps/noise look good.

Please, take note that Scythe top-down coolers (Zipang, Zipang 2, Kabuto, Rasetsu) are LARGE: be careful checking all the dimensional constraints you do have with your case.

_________________
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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:10 am 
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Hi quest_for_silence. I've just realised that the Rasetsu has been described as being "moderately loud with its fan at default speed", which I don't like the sound of. It seems that the Shurikens are like smaller versions of Zipangs, so that could be a consideration for the space issue. Even though a top fan cooler would be better in terms of space, I think I'd now prefer one that blows towards the back of the case. I'm forever changing my mind!


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:34 am 
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Traveller wrote:
I've just realised that the Rasetsu has been described as being "moderately loud with its fan at default speed", which I don't like the sound of.

Sorry, I can't realize what a "default speed" stands for: this is the Rasetsu PWM fan, may you plainly explain me which can be the "default speed"?

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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 8:21 am 
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Hi quest_for_silence. I don't have a clue what it means. I just read it at the bottom of the following link.

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.c ... 554&page=5

They also state - "The 120mm PWM fan on the Scythe Rasetsu heatsink spins at 1800RPM by default, creating a moderate 59.5dBA noise. At a reduced fan speed of 800RPM, the Rasetsu heatsink hums along at a whisper quiet 38.2 dBA. The fan has a dedicated manual fan controller mounted to a PCI bracket as is common with many Scythe heatsinks, it cannot be removed from the fan."

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.c ... 554&page=3

Hope that helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 7:58 pm 
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Mr Spocko, just realised that the Gelid 92mm Silent 9 fans are 'case' fans. Are case fans and CPU fans the same thing? If not, won't they have different connections and how would one attach a case fan to a heatsink? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 1:00 pm 
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Traveller wrote:
Hi quest_for_silence. I don't have a clue what it means. I just read it at the bottom of the following link.

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.c ... 554&page=5

They also state - "The 120mm PWM fan on the Scythe Rasetsu heatsink spins at 1800RPM by default, creating a moderate 59.5dBA noise. At a reduced fan speed of 800RPM, the Rasetsu heatsink hums along at a whisper quiet 38.2 dBA. The fan has a dedicated manual fan controller mounted to a PCI bracket as is common with many Scythe heatsinks, it cannot be removed from the fan."

http://www.frostytech.com/articleview.c ... 554&page=3

Hope that helps.

Yes, a tad: maybe I'll be wrong, but I see that you are brand new as a silencer...

...fans are fans, a case fan can be a cpu fan and viceversa: the only thing that matter is the fan header, you need a 3 pin (voltage controlled) or 4 pin (PWM) header to run quietly a fan. Anyway, avoid closed corners fans for a cpu heatsink or you might run into some troubles.
There are some really quiet fan (at any speed), but usually they are useless or designed for very special applications (I think to some sub-600rpm fans).
A PWM fan is a variable speed fan by design, so it doesn't have actually a "default speed", FrostyTech is referring to the higher maximum speed but there is no technical reason to assume that one as the "default speed" (and why not the lower maximum speed? Moreover their dB figures are totally meaningless).

The rules of thumb are: use a fluid bearing fan for horizontal or vertical mountings, a sleeve bearing for vertical mounting only; then, it's more important how you use the fans, than how slow they spin at their theoretical max speed.
This is why some motherboards (or rheobus) are preferable over all the others: currently ASUS and MSI have, in my opinion, the best headers to drive a fan. Using a software controller (along with the proper BIOS settings) may improve the overall situation.

Just to give you some reference, a 120-140mm fan can be quiet up to 600-800rpm speed, moderately quiet up to 1000-1200rpm speed, moderately loud up to 1600-1800rpm, loud or unbearable loud above those speeds. Smaller fans can run quicker quietly, while larger ones need to be slowed down more to be on par. I use a CM Hyper 212+ with an oc'ed X3 740 (unlocked 4 cores @ 4.2GHz) and it cools this cpu at full load with a pair of 120mm Enermax Cluster (PWM) running under 700rpm (ambient under 28°C).

Summarizing those Scythe Slipstream PWM are very quiet fans in their lower speed range and most of times running them at full speed is virtually useless even with heavily oc'ed CPUs.

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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:55 pm 
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No, you are not wrong, this is the first time I have ever thought about building a quiet pc, so I do not know anything about how fans operate. I just read reviews and forum postings and see what most people agree is quiet and cool. I just had to search what a closed corner fan was! Haha. I've just checked my motherboard's manual and the CPU fan header has four pins. So, one of these fits your description:-

http://tech-reviews.co.uk/reviews/nexus ... -pwm-fans/

The review says that the pro is that it's 'quiet' but the con is that it's 'not silent', haha.

Thanks for the explanations, they have been very helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:03 am 
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Traveller wrote:
I just had to search what a closed corner fan was! Haha.

Image

Traveller wrote:
The review says that the pro is that it's 'quiet' but the con is that it's 'not silent', haha.

It sounds right: in my experience those fans are a bit noisier than the best ones around (as the 3 pin Nexus fans!). Disappointing.

Just to have some names to check, for PWM fans you may give a look to some Noiseblocker, or to some more affordable Scythe (Sliptstream or Kama Flex); even some Thermalright may worth. If your motherboard cpu fan header can drive even 3 pin fans (often it's possible, check the manual or ask to the manufacturer support service), you may have an even broader range of quiet/silent choices.

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Luca


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 am 
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Any update on this just? curious if the OP got this one sorted out :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:46 pm 
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Ok, thanks quest_for_silence. I've asked on the motherboard forums and they said that it is possible to use a 3 pin fan.

Mr Spocko, I've decided on the Hyper TX3, however, am still undecided regarding the fan. Maybe I'll go for the Gelid one because you have actually used this with the cooler I'm getting, along with a six core CPU that is almost identical to mine, so it seems a safe bet.

The Arctic Cooling Arctic F9 sounds ok and the Nexus Real Silent too.

I've been looking at the table at the following link, however, reviewers usually say that the manufacturers' claims are usually not what they are in reality in terms of noise/airflow.

http://www.quietpc.com/gb-en-gbp/products/92mmfans

Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 4:01 am 
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Hi Traveller
I've just made a new forum topic to compare the Noctua and Gelid 92mm fans so have a look there it's a slam dunk for Gelid on that one.

Only thing to add is I'd use a good thermal paste as well I've kept the coolermaster bundled paste for other jobs but I'd suggest something good paste wise because that can shave some temps off just on it's own!


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 5:31 am 
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Hi Mr Spocko. Yes, I've seen that post, very helpful. I had also looked into that fan but dismissed it for some reason. I've already got Tuniq TX2 and TX3. I gathered that TX3 was better but was difficult to apply, so I got TX2 also just in case, as I've never applied thermal paste before. I think I'll just go ahead and get the Gelid 92mm ones as you have advised, but be warned, I'll be back here to blame you for everything when the computer blows up! Haha.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:29 am 
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Hi. I am in the process of building my pc, however, have realised that the Hyper TX3 can only be fitted with the fan facing toward the top or bottom of the pc case on my AM3 motherboard. Isn't it possible to have the fan facing from front to back with the TX3 and an AM3 motherboard? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:50 am 
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You should find the clips just clear the side facing towards the rear fan so it can be mounted both ways.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 11:55 am 
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Thanks for the reply Mr Spocko. This is the motherboard, the lugs to hook the clips onto are only on the left and right side.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_H4QwPe2pnnE/S ... A-UD3H.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:49 pm 
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If you look at the TX-3 it will show you 2 ways/directions to install the CPU cooler so you can have it as I do with the clips as per normal on an AMD system top and bottom but rotate the cooler to allow right to left airflow.

It's fairly close and not much space but you can install it so the fan blows towards the back of the case. This is how I have it on my own pc and systems I have done.

If you look at the second picture on the CM site you can see the AMD clip better:
http://www.coolermaster.com/product.php?product_id=6602

The clip should just clear the fins thus allowing you to have it set up as I have


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 1:08 pm 
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OOOOHHHH, I see! Thanks for pointing that out. I had seen the photo at the website AND in the instruction manual but I failed to notice the difference. THANK YOU!!!! I was about to install it the top/bottom way!


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup? - SOLVED
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 11:18 am 
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Hi all. I managed to install the heatsink ok, however, I am SO relieved that I had done my homework beforehand and bought TX2 thermal paste just in case TX3 was difficult to apply. It may be ok for just placing a drop on the surface, however, I found it absolutely IMPOSSIBLE to spread, it was like play-doh!! I had to scrape and clean it all off and use TX2 instead, which was more liquidy and went on more easily. Anyhow, I haven't investigated which fans I can hear, but I can still hear whirring of fans and I am using onboard graphics at the moment! I think I'm going to just give up trying to achieve a silent pc. Thanks for all the help received here, I really appreciate it all.


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 Post subject: Re: Most sensible cooling option for my setup? - SOLVED
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Traveller wrote:
I think I'm going to just give up trying to achieve a silent pc. Thanks for all the help received here, I really appreciate it all.

Begin with the description of your complete setup (hw & sw).

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Luca


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