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 Post subject: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 7:14 pm 
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Based on the excellent review and feedback on the Scythe Kotetsu, I purchased it to cool the core i5-6600k. On idle it works great at about 10C above ambient. On load it fumes at 90C with minimal overclock @ 1.255V core. Is this normal? Using a R5 case with two stock fans and a phantek 140 on the bottom front. See attached pic. Here are some quick specs:
CPU: core i5-6600k @ x43 multiplier 1.255 V core (could never get stable @ x44 must have had horrible luck with cpu lottery or the mobo is terrible).
MOBO: asus z170 sabertooth s (in retrospect should have just gone with the z170 s)
Case: Fractal R5
RAM: 8gb x 2 3200 G. Skill 16-16-16-36

The system is near silent at light loads but the fans are set to rev up to 100% at high load.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Sun Jun 05, 2016 8:48 pm 
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Just to haunt you from your pre-build thread:
Quote:
- cooler: Mugan Max will be overkill unless you plan to overvolt the CPU

Ok, that's done. Now, onto the problem at hand...

It could be the cooler and/or it could be whatever you are using to measure the temps..so,
- what are you using to measure the temps? Did you run a calibration routine? Did you compare against other apps to see if they all agree?
- 10C above ambient at idle is a tad high. I'd expect to see 5-6C. Are you using offset mode - an offset to the core voltage so at idle it's still stock idle voltage, or, is this thing overvolting at idle?
- What is the idle voltage and clock freq?

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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:49 pm 
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Had to come down to x42 to get stable overclock. The overclock is miniscule, certainly at bottom of the scale at 4.2 ghz up from stock 3.9 ghz. TBH, not sure it is really even worth it considering the time it took. The problem seems to be that asus has a tendency to use much higher than needed voltages including vcore, and sa. I manually set them both with the vcore down to 1.25 v (even though vid goes up to 1.3v despite load line calibration down to 4). The sa is down to 0.95 down from 1.2v. For some reason using auto - uses really high voltages and thus high temps. No offset or adaptive or auto - just manual settings from trial and error.

TBH, I wasn't planning any major OC to like 4.8 or anything and hence the decision not to go with mugen max. I was expecting the kotetsu to perform much better than it did wrt cooling. I do agree about the silent operation though. So the big question is where to go from here? What would you guys do? Is it worth the hassle of taking apart the system, taking out the motherboard and doing the cpu cooler mount? From a 4k gaming fps would it even matter with the major driver being the gpu. Still waiting on the 1080 gtx asus strix or msi version so that will be the final (and really the main) jewel on this 4k gaming system.

The temps are consistent across apps. The voltages do vary b/w asus ai suite and hwinfo. Vid is more specific I am told, but if anyone knows otherwise, please let me know. Additional details are in the idle and load screen caps below.

Edit: ambient approx 25C

Attachment:
idle.jpg


Attachment:
load x42 1.25v 0.95 sa.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:28 pm 
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A couple things you can try..
- Try running at stock speed / Vcore and see what temps you get at idle / load. If the cooler isn't seated well, the temps will still be way high. If they are, it's time to remove the cooler, clean/reapplying TIM and reattach.
- Instead of manual Vcore, try offset or adaptive modes for a less aggressive Vcore.

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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:43 pm 
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What are you using to load test? Prime95 with 8 threads with small FFTs can easily heat up the CPU very quickly and cause 90+ degree temperatures. I have never tried an i5 which should run cooler but on my other computer using an i7 4770k temperatures will quickly jump to 100+ causing immediate throttling.

The SPCR tests run Prime95 with a 4x blended setting which does not load it as much.


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 5:24 am 
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What is the ambient temperature when you are testing? Edit - see it now. 25C certainly has something to do with it.

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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:04 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
A couple things you can try..
- Try running at stock speed / Vcore and see what temps you get at idle / load. If the cooler isn't seated well, the temps will still be way high. If they are, it's time to remove the cooler, clean/reapplying TIM and reattach.
- Instead of manual Vcore, try offset or adaptive modes for a less aggressive Vcore.


Running stock everything, heck no turbo even, here is what I get. BTW had already cleaned off the TIM and applied a fresh coat of the "premium" goo to the CPU previously. Briefly tried adaptive/offset without significant improvement unless I start getting aggressive with the offset amount. Overall, manual gives more control as expected.


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:06 pm 
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mokodi wrote:
What are you using to load test? Prime95 with 8 threads with small FFTs can easily heat up the CPU very quickly and cause 90+ degree temperatures. I have never tried an i5 which should run cooler but on my other computer using an i7 4770k temperatures will quickly jump to 100+ causing immediate throttling.

The SPCR tests run Prime95 with a 4x blended setting which does not load it as much.


Indeed, no p95, occt or anything artificially insane. Doing primarily realbench and the custom x264 loop script from overclockers.net. Both of these are the medium potency stressors. Probably more realistic as I do occasionally need to encode cartoons onto the kid's ipad.


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:40 pm 
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So, ~60C at load with stock voltage and clock. What did the TIM pattern on the CPU IHS look like when you removed the cooler? Was it smushed to a practically transparent layer in the center, or was it thick/opaque and/or did it have fractal patterns in the center?

Also, what's the fan rpm profile like?

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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 4:57 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
So, ~60C at load with stock voltage and clock. What did the TIM pattern on the CPU IHS look like when you removed the cooler? Was it smushed to a practically transparent layer in the center, or was it thick/opaque and/or did it have fractal patterns in the center?

Also, what's the fan rpm profile like?


I reverted back to a (near) silent CPU fan profile which is attached. It was slightly more aggressive for the stress test. Also attached is the TIM pattern on the initial application where I applied too much I thought. The second time around I used much less and did the line to correspond to the skylake die. Not planning for delidding.

Image

Way too much TIM on first application (was getting close to 100 on this before switching to a premium compound and reapplying a minuscule amount):

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:50 pm 
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Yeah that's way too much TIM. You only need a bit in the middle (a few grain sized worth) and the mounting pressure of the heatsink will spread the paste. There's no need to spread it out like butter on toast :)

Can you compare the CPU temperature reported by the Asus Thermal Radar 2 with the values in CPUID HWMonitor? On my computer the Asus tool always reports lower temperatures. I am not sure which is more accurate but the Asus tool is important because that's the temperature it uses to control the fan speeds.

Another indication of high temperatures is throttling. CPUID HWMonitor showed high 80s when I ran Prime95 on my 6700k but the frequency stayed locked at 4200 (max turbo). If the processor were really getting too hot I would expect it to throttle hard. The lack of throttling and lack of stability issues on my own computer made me think that perhaps CPUID isn't reporting the right temperature.


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:39 pm 
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If the cooler was making good contact with the IHS it would have squeezed a lot of that extremely excessive amount of TIM out like toothpaste. You only need a fat grain of rice sized bit of TIM.

It's a pita, but worth checking the TIM pattern again to see if it's closer to the best case or worse case patterns I linked above. ..and it'll give you the opportunity to apply a smaller amount of TIM the third time around. :)

That said, 60C load on 28-30C ambient...so 30-35C over ambient is in the ballpark for 90W CPU vs the 130W used in the review (with a soldered IHS and larger die). Plus, there's the Asus tendency to add more Vcore voltage over and above Intel's v-f profile.

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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2016 4:42 pm 
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mokodi wrote:
Yeah that's way too much TIM. You only need a bit in the middle (a few grain sized worth) and the mounting pressure of the heatsink will spread the paste. There's no need to spread it out like butter on toast :)

Can you compare the CPU temperature reported by the Asus Thermal Radar 2 with the values in CPUID HWMonitor? On my computer the Asus tool always reports lower temperatures. I am not sure which is more accurate but the Asus tool is important because that's the temperature it uses to control the fan speeds.

Another indication of high temperatures is throttling. CPUID HWMonitor showed high 80s when I ran Prime95 on my 6700k but the frequency stayed locked at 4200 (max turbo). If the processor were really getting too hot I would expect it to throttle hard. The lack of throttling and lack of stability issues on my own computer made me think that perhaps CPUID isn't reporting the right temperature.


I noticed throttling at 100C. Below that it seemed fine. Attached is the CPUID HW Monitor vs Thermal Radar 2 as requested:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 1:13 pm 
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Since I am closing in on 30 days, I am planning to return the scythe kotetsu and ordered a noctua nh-15. The noctua is not cheap at almost $89. The ram clearance will be an issue with the heat spreaders for which I will have to raise the front fan slightly up


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 4:59 pm 
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Hey there, twitch. De-lurking for a bit to ask a question about your mounting method.

First, some background: a few months ago, I upgraded my system to a new E3 1240 v5 Xeon (that's the newest Skylake E3) using a Kotetsu for cooling. Included in the Kotetsu's various bits of mounting hardware was an extra packet with a pair of spacing washers and special instructions for mounting on a socket 1151 system. Because of the widely reported Skylake damage caused by overly tight installations of certain HSFs, the Kotetsu included, this was Scythe's solution. The extra spacing reduced the mating force, protecting our expensive processors.

The problem, at least with my Xeon, was that it was too much spacing. With the washers installed as directed, the Kotetsu was so loosely coupled that it would wiggle when I touched it. Even though the mounting screws were bottomed out, I could twist it back and forth a few degrees with no noticeable effort. It was so loose that the Ceramique 2 TIM I used to mount it acted as a lubricant instead of a thermal conductor.

Though this was my first experience with an after-market HSF, I knew they should clamp more than hard enough to stay put. So I remounted it without the extra washers, taking care not to tighten it too much, for a guesstimated "too much." I'm not even sure I got the screws on both sides tightened evenly, but it works great.

I don't know if there are any differences in the substrate or heat spreader between the Skylake E3 and i5/i7 chips, but I wouldn't expect any. Based on the amount/pattern of TIM on your heat sink and processor, it looks to my inexpert eye like you didn't have nearly enough contact pressure. So, my question is this: did you use the extra washers for socket 1151 processors? Because that may be the problem.

If you're worried about trying the mount without the extra spacers and the possibility of damaging your costly equipment, as I was, you may take some comfort in knowing that Intel's HSF mounting guidelines supposedly allow for up to 50 pounds (!) of force between the HSF and processor (the first paragraph in the link).

As I noted above, the Kotetsu does very well in my system, a Xeon/Kotetsu in a Fractal Design Define R4, and my Xeon and your i5 have identical stock clock speeds.


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:55 am 
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stumbler wrote:
Hey there, twitch. De-lurking for a bit to ask a question about your mounting method.

Thank you a lot for sharing!

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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 8:30 am 
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stumbler wrote:
Hey there, twitch. De-lurking for a bit to ask a question about your mounting method.

First, some background: a few months ago, I upgraded my system to a new E3 1240 v5 Xeon (that's the newest Skylake E3) using a Kotetsu for cooling. Included in the Kotetsu's various bits of mounting hardware was an extra packet with a pair of spacing washers and special instructions for mounting on a socket 1151 system. Because of the widely reported Skylake damage caused by overly tight installations of certain HSFs, the Kotetsu included, this was Scythe's solution. The extra spacing reduced the mating force, protecting our expensive processors.

The problem, at least with my Xeon, was that it was too much spacing. With the washers installed as directed, the Kotetsu was so loosely coupled that it would wiggle when I touched it. Even though the mounting screws were bottomed out, I could twist it back and forth a few degrees with no noticeable effort. It was so loose that the Ceramique 2 TIM I used to mount it acted as a lubricant instead of a thermal conductor.

Though this was my first experience with an after-market HSF, I knew they should clamp more than hard enough to stay put. So I remounted it without the extra washers, taking care not to tighten it too much, for a guesstimated "too much." I'm not even sure I got the screws on both sides tightened evenly, but it works great.

I don't know if there are any differences in the substrate or heat spreader between the Skylake E3 and i5/i7 chips, but I wouldn't expect any. Based on the amount/pattern of TIM on your heat sink and processor, it looks to my inexpert eye like you didn't have nearly enough contact pressure. So, my question is this: did you use the extra washers for socket 1151 processors? Because that may be the problem.

If you're worried about trying the mount without the extra spacers and the possibility of damaging your costly equipment, as I was, you may take some comfort in knowing that Intel's HSF mounting guidelines supposedly allow for up to 50 pounds (!) of force between the HSF and processor (the first paragraph in the link).

As I noted above, the Kotetsu does very well in my system, a Xeon/Kotetsu in a Fractal Design Define R4, and my Xeon and your i5 have identical stock clock speeds.


/u/Stumbler Thank you so much for that info. I suspect I may have the same issue. There is more wiggle than I would like with the extra spacers installed for the 1151 board. We recently moved and the cooling has gotten much worse (now hitting 100c) again supporting your theory. The noctua should be here Tuesday from Newegg but your story is encouraging me to attempt one last remount before giving up on this cooler. Given how popular these coolers are on this board I am surprised no one else brought this up in my struggle with the cooler this past month. TBH, this cooler has been much more of a hassle than the prolimatech megalems I put on my old sandybridge many years ago which is much larger.


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 9:40 am 
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Before stumbler posted, I didn't know Scythe had added a spacer on the Kotetsu for Skylake/1151...previously, they said only the Mugen and Mugen Max were affected. The thickness difference between Skylake and Haswell is very small - probably a turn or less on the cooler screws. If you get a chance, please post a pic of the spacer - perhaps while threaded on a screw so we can get a size perspective.

...also, if you had taken a second dismounted cooler/cpu picture we could have seen if there was enough mounting pressure...

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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:24 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Before stumbler posted, I didn't know Scythe had added a spacer on the Kotetsu for Skylake/1151...previously, they said only the Mugen and Mugen Max were affected. The thickness difference between Skylake and Haswell is very small - probably a turn or less on the cooler screws. If you get a chance, please post a pic of the spacer - perhaps while threaded on a screw so we can get a size perspective.

...also, if you had taken a second dismounted cooler/cpu picture we could have seen if there was enough mounting pressure...


It is slightly (1.3x) thicker than a standard credit card. Tried to take a pic of the thickness but the focus was off. Additional pics below.

Ok the good news first - removing the extra 1151 spacer in a 1151 board works!! With the spacer, there was quite a bit of wiggle of the cpu cooler even though the screws were tight. Once the spacer was removed and the cooler screws gently tightened it was sturdy without any wiggle. Just to give you an idea how much wiggle there was before - barely placing the cpu cooler fan on the cooler would cause the entire cooler to rotate slightly. Now that is resolved - all thanks to Stumbler!! I was able to hit x46 multiplier which I couldn't before. Temps at offset + were mostly in the 70s and barely touched 80. I imagine this could be improved by further tweaking the offset amount manually or manually adjusting the voltage but I'll take x46. The VID is 1.27 but the Vcore was pretty high as a result. Screenshots below.

No OC
Image

x46_offset+
Image

Ok the bad news. As a result of the spacers (and likely exacerbated by recent move) the CPU was hitting 100c on normal workload (i.e. no benchmarks). The thermal compound would not come off with the isopropyl alcohol. Desperate - I tried other household cleaning products with no avail and as a last ditch attempt tried to scratch the thing off (anyone reading this do not attempt - silly and desperate move on my part). You can see the damage in this album: http://imgur.com/a/MdAsN

If someone reads this in the future - do NOT use the extra spacers they provide for 1151 boards.


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 Post subject: Re: 90 C on scythe kotetsu
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:37 pm 
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Glad it worked out.

If you are stressed out about the scratch marks, you could always lap the CPU and cooler with fine grit sandpaper. Be sure to follow good ESD practices so you don't zap the CPU.

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