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 Post subject: 8700 K OC CPU Cooling water vs non water?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:53 pm 
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I'm wondering which is more silent & less heat overall for a system running a 8700k OC to 5GHZ.

Planning to get a smaller enclosure like the Fractal Design define C.

Corsair RMi650 for PSU.

GPU planned for the future, but nothing like the 1080. Something like the 1060 or AMD equivalent.

This will be for music production and video editing.

Can I get some suggestions ? Was planning the NH-D15, but don't mind spending a bit extra on water cooling if it can also help cool down inside the case a bit.

Thanks in advance!


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 Post subject: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production System
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:33 am 
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Hello new here!

I'm in the process of building a machine for music production. Below are the parts I'm looking at will be super helpful if people here can give me some advices.

Criteria is to last for the next 5-6 years, quiet & efficient. Thunderbolt 3 is a must as I require this for my outboard soundcard. :idea: I'm not an expert on PC build as I've moved to OSX since 2006. I've made the decision to come back to Windows for various reasons, software compatibility & simplicity.

Motherboard : Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 5
TB3 : Alpine Ridge Dual TB3 PCIe Controller - The reason I choose the Gigabyte MB is because TB3 is a must.
RAM: Corsair Vengeance LPX (16gb x 2) DDR4 2400
SSD: Samsung 800Evo 500GB - OS & Software
Samsung 850 Evo 500GB - Sample Library
Samsung 960Evo NVME 1TB - Audio Recording / Tracking & Project Editing
GPU: IGPU for now / will upgrade in the future for Video editing /Photoshop / 2D CAD /3D Modelling & Rendering.

Need advices for silent & low temp parts listed below ->
-Case : Fractal Design Define C for the clean design and smaller enclosure. Was also looking at the Corsair
-Case Fans : Extra Case fans to bring down internal heat?
-CPU Cooler : Noctua NH-D15 ? better suggestions i.e. Water Cooling.
-PSU : Corsair RM650i ? While this is really quiet and built with good components, I’m worried the system will get too hot as the fan only activates at designated thermal threshold.


Many Thanks!!


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:18 am 
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Welcome to SPCR.

One quick question: Will this be used in a live mic environment?

[Also, I merged your two topics here for ease of discussion].

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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Some more thoughts while I wait for you to wake up :)

- pcpartpicker tracks a few Australian e-tailers. So, it could be useful as you fine tune your build/budget.
- Are you sure you want to severely OC the CPU for audio recording? That's adding a lot more heat (~40W on top of the 95W) that needs to be removed and it will impact system noise. Plus, it won't provide a benefit for audio recording...it can help with video and 3D render times...perhaps you could set up two BIOS profiles...
- '370 chipset uses DDR4 2666 as the baseline. You can also eke out some small benefits by using DDR4 3000/3200...again for video rendering/3D modeling.
- storage: Not sure about the mix of SSDs. Seems like you'd want the fastest SSD for OS and s/w. Scratch disk just has to be fast enough to write the data and library just has to be fast enough to read the data. That said, you could probably reduce to 2 SSDs. One 850 Evo SATA for the library and one 960 EVO NVME for everything else. I'm assuming you also have an internal or external HDD for long term storage/backup.
- PSU: your stressed load with a GTX 1060 included and assuming 135W for an OC'd CPU is ~285W. The likely rendering load is closer to 250W or less. Go for the RM550x. The fan will likely be off for most of your uses. Given the good efficiency, there isn't a lot of waste heat. So, don't worry about it.
- Case: Define C is nice. It comes with two 120mm fans. If your intent is to add a gfx card, two fans in front and one in rear should do the trick. Not sure if the stock fans will cut it for live recording (if you can't stop the fans). More on this later.
Note: The Gigabyte fan control s/w comes with fan stop....but, you really don't want to run any unneccesary s/w while recording (adds DPC latency). Not sure if they have fan stop in the BIOS fan controls.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:25 pm 
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Location: Australia
CA_Steve wrote:
Some more thoughts while I wait for you to wake up :)

- pcpartpicker tracks a few Australian e-tailers. So, it could be useful as you fine tune your build/budget.


Hey Big Thanks for the through input! I'm AWAKE!

- Are you sure you want to severely OC the CPU for audio recording? That's adding a lot more heat (~40W on top of the 95W) that needs to be removed and it will impact system noise. Plus, it won't provide a benefit for audio recording...it can help with video and 3D render times...perhaps you could set up two BIOS profiles...

As you know I will be using a lot of audio plug-ins FX & VST (emulations of the hardware in software) for the production side of it, which in theory uses exclusively CPU power & RAM . Therefore I thought the higher the CPU power the better, correct me if I'm wrong on that. That being said maybe 5GHZ would be an over kill? On my current machine when I stack tons of plug-ins in 70+ tracks it starts to lag especially when I'm layering new tracks and recording new materials. I would often have to render the tracks to audio to save CPU power otherwise it will be very rough and cause all kinds of noises and latency. Currently on a i7 2.8ghz / 8gb late 2013 macbook pro

- '370 chipset uses DDR4 2666 as the baseline. You can also eke out some small benefits by using DDR4 3000/3200...again for video rendering/3D modeling.

Okay get ya, that means a 2400 will not work on a z370 MB. I would have to get at least a 2666? I've did some research on current technology on RAM, and as you go up in mhz there will be less benefits overall, power to the dollar ratio. The price isn't too much difference between the 2666 & 3000 tho

- storage: Not sure about the mix of SSDs. Seems like you'd want the fastest SSD for OS and s/w. Scratch disk just has to be fast enough to write the data and library just has to be fast enough to read the data. That said, you could probably reduce to 2 SSDs. One 850 Evo SATA for the library and one 960 EVO NVME for everything else. I'm assuming you also have an internal or external HDD for long term storage/backup.

The logic behind using the 960evo for the Recording / Project drive is based on the reliability of a larger drive as there will be many recording and audio rendering which is all read and write on the SSD. I'm concerned that the drive might die on me as I've had
experiences where all my data were lost after a HDD failure, maybe I'm just unlucky. Also the 960 evo 1TB is literally the same price as the 850 Pro 1TB, so I figured I would just get the latest NVME technology. For recording I would want an independent drive so the system drive can do its own work and not share system resources for the project drive & in theory minimize latency. This is just what I have gathered from articles and personal experiences. Maybe you'd know better? I will setup an external drive to back up all my data across the board. Are internal 3.7 inch drives a good idea for backup, that was my initial plan but have read its not a good idea as it would always be running. My PC would be on for 8-12 hours a day?


- PSU: your stressed load with a GTX 1060 included and assuming 135W for an OC'd CPU is ~285W. The likely rendering load is closer to 250W or less. Go for the RM550x. The fan will likely be off for most of your uses. Given the good efficiency, there isn't a lot of waste heat. So, don't worry about it.

Yeh you are right, I did some calculations earlier via http://www.coolermaster.com/power-supply-calculator/ and it came down to shy of 400 watts with the 1060 GPU. So the 550 should work fine.

- Case: Define C is nice. It comes with two 120mm fans. If your intent is to add a gfx card, two fans in front and one in rear should do the trick. Not sure if the stock fans will cut it for live recording (if you can't stop the fans). More on this later.
Note: The Gigabyte fan control s/w comes with fan stop....but, you really don't want to run any unneccesary s/w while recording (adds DPC latency). Not sure if they have fan stop in the BIOS fan controls.[/quote]

Got ya! More on this later? What about the NH-D15, would this be a good candidate? You mentioned earlier regarding live mic'ing, what do you mean by this?

Thanks, looking forward to more input! 8) :!: :idea: :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:48 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Welcome to SPCR.

One quick question: Will this be used in a live mic environment?

[Also, I merged your two topics here for ease of discussion].


I'm more concerned of the noises from the fans that will interfere while I doing audio mixing. It shouldn't be too much of a problem with recording as I can always move the mics to another room even though this is a home studio, most recording will be direct without a mic. Except when I do acoustic instruments and vocals.


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:30 am 
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In a live mic environment, you really want all moving parts to stop or be completely inaudible to the mics so they (obviously) don't get picked up as part of the background noise. For mixing/rendering/modeling, the CPU will be well loaded and even the best system won't be silent..but it can be pretty darn quiet.

Overclocking and comparing to 2013 Mac: I don't see a 2.8GHz configuration for the 15" MacBook Pro...but, let's stick with it as a reference.
- You might look at some of the other DAW builds in the forums...built for running orchestral levels of VIs, etc. I don't recall any having to OC. Anyway, looking at the MacBook, I wonder if 70+ VI's/tracks was more of a RAM limitation than anything else. If RAM runs out, the OS has to swap memory between RAM and the SSD. That, in itself could bring your system to it's knees. Do you have a way of monitoring RAM usage while running a typical arrangement?
- while you are at it, is there a way to monitor CPU usage?

DDR4 2400: it'll work. It'll just work slower. :)

SSDs are muuuch more reliable than HDDs...and HDDs are pretty reliable. Here's a fun article. Also, you might check out Anandtech's Bench for SSDs. Get a feel for NVME speeds vs SATA. The 960 EVO rocks. Given the insane speeds, and the ability to handle many many I/O requests, you could probably go with just one SSD. Two is fine, three is maybe overkill.
- HDD for backup: I have an internal HDD for daily backups and also have an external HDD (as well as thumb drives) for archival storage. You can schedule the backup for when you aren't recording and use Windows Power Options to tell the HDD to spin down after xx minutes of idle.

PSU calculators are a waste of space. Best method is just add the TDPs of the CPU (and GPU) and any add-in card, then add another 30W plus 10W per 3.5" HDD. That'll be your stress load power. Look for a PSU that's inaudible at this range. OC'ing adds a bit more - in your case another 40W or so.

CPU cooler: The Noctua will fit and is a good choice. Liquid cooling gets tricky and I wouldn't bother unless you really want to get to 5GHz. Pump noise is almost always an issue, radiators are against the side of the case so fan noise is more prevalent. Plus, placement vs airflow has to be addressed. If no gfx card, then radiator in front as exhaust and rear fan as intake is a possibility. If gfx card, then radiator on top, with front intake and rear exhaust fans. For an A-B comparison, take a look at one of the more promising AIOs, be quiet's Silent Loop 280. Both fans and pump can be controlled by the mobo. Here's another.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:39 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
In a live mic environment, you really want all moving parts to stop or be completely inaudible to the mics so they (obviously) don't get picked up as part of the background noise. For mixing/rendering/modeling, the CPU will be well loaded and even the best system won't be silent..but it can be pretty darn quiet.

Overclocking and comparing to 2013 Mac: I don't see a 2.8GHz configuration for the 15" MacBook Pro...but, let's stick with it as a reference.
- You might look at some of the other DAW builds in the forums...built for running orchestral levels of VIs, etc. I don't recall any having to OC. Anyway, looking at the MacBook, I wonder if 70+ VI's/tracks was more of a RAM limitation than anything else. If RAM runs out, the OS has to swap memory between RAM and the SSD. That, in itself could bring your system to it's knees. Do you have a way of monitoring RAM usage while running a typical arrangement?
- while you are at it, is there a way to monitor CPU usage?

DDR4 2400: it'll work. It'll just work slower. :)

SSDs are muuuch more reliable than HDDs...and HDDs are pretty reliable. Here's a fun article. Also, you might check out Anandtech's Bench for SSDs. Get a feel for NVME speeds vs SATA. The 960 EVO rocks. Given the insane speeds, and the ability to handle many many I/O requests, you could probably go with just one SSD. Two is fine, three is maybe overkill.
- HDD for backup: I have an internal HDD for daily backups and also have an external HDD (as well as thumb drives) for archival storage. You can schedule the backup for when you aren't recording and use Windows Power Options to tell the HDD to spin down after xx minutes of idle.

PSU calculators are a waste of space. Best method is just add the TDPs of the CPU (and GPU) and any add-in card, then add another 30W plus 10W per 3.5" HDD. That'll be your stress load power. Look for a PSU that's inaudible at this range. OC'ing adds a bit more - in your case another 40W or so.

CPU cooler: The Noctua will fit and is a good choice. Liquid cooling gets tricky and I wouldn't bother unless you really want to get to 5GHz. Pump noise is almost always an issue, radiators are against the side of the case so fan noise is more prevalent. Plus, placement vs airflow has to be addressed. If no gfx card, then radiator in front as exhaust and rear fan as intake is a possibility. If gfx card, then radiator on top, with front intake and rear exhaust fans. For an A-B comparison, take a look at one of the more promising AIOs, be quiet's Silent Loop 280. Both fans and pump can be controlled by the mobo. Here's another.


BIG BIG THANKS! Really appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts!


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:53 pm 
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Also, if you go the Nocuta route, consider the NH-D15S over the NH-D15. Similar performance, a little more compatible with mobo's/RAM height.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:53 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
Also, if you go the Nocuta route, consider the NH-D15S over the NH-D15. Similar performance, a little more compatible with mobo's/RAM height.



Hey thanks, I ordered the Nh-d15, the ram height is there abouts 32mm so I would be fine. Could adjust the fans a little if I needed a bit more clearance.

BTW, wondered if you can recommend a no nonsense anti virus software, as I'm moving back to Windows 10 and it had always made me a bit concerned in regards to virus / trojan protection. (where as on MAC I didnt have to worry too much ).

Thanks! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:34 am 
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I just use the built-in Windows Defender tool. I worry less detecting/cleaning stuff that got on my PC and more about stopping it before it gets there (malware via browsing, email phishing, etc). Use a browser (like Firefox) that you can get addons like NoScript, UBlock Origin or AdBlock Plus to stop re-directs, mouse-over malware, etc. I also use HTTPS Everywhere, Privacy Badger, and Clear Flash Cookies.

Be sure to post when you get your build going :)

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:22 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
I just use the built-in Windows Defender tool. I worry less detecting/cleaning stuff that got on my PC and more about stopping it before it gets there (malware via browsing, email phishing, etc). Use a browser (like Firefox) that you can get addons like NoScript, UBlock Origin or AdBlock Plus to stop re-directs, mouse-over malware, etc. I also use HTTPS Everywhere, Privacy Badger, and Clear Flash Cookies.

Be sure to post when you get your build going :)



Will do ! Thanks Steve!


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:14 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
SSDs are muuuch more reliable than HDDs...and HDDs are pretty reliable. Here's a fun article. Also, you might check out Anandtech's Bench for SSDs. Get a feel for NVME speeds vs SATA. The 960 EVO rocks. Given the insane speeds, and the ability to handle many many I/O requests, you could probably go with just one SSD. Two is fine, three is maybe overkill.
- HDD for backup: I have an internal HDD for daily backups and also have an external HDD (as well as thumb drives) for archival storage. You can schedule the backup for when you aren't recording and use Windows Power Options to tell the HDD to spin down after xx minutes of idle.


Hi Steve,

Just a few more questions, not very familiar with some of the terms you mentioned.

1. Spin down is to turn off the HDD completely? And have it turn on when a backup is scheduled?
2. How will Win10 determine IDLE state? (Can I manually set Idel definition?)
3. Any backup app you can recommend?
4. Would I benefit from using a NAS 3.5 HDD installed internally?


Many Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 3:43 pm 
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1 and 2) The hard drive can be set to stop spinning and go into an idle state until the PC requires to write or read from it. You can set the length of time it takes prior to spinning down a couple of different ways. It's always good to set up a power plan to determine how long of idle b4 the monitor blanks and the PC goes to sleep. So, let's go there.
In windows 10 settings / power and sleep / additional power settings (on the right) / set up a custom plan / change plan settings / change advanced power settings / hard disk / turn off hard disk after xx minutes

Also found via
Control panel / power options / etc...

3) Nothing that says "this is effing awesome". I'm using the built in app from MS, but it is a space hog for me.

4) No real benefit other than some have longer warranties than others. Stick with 5400rpm class for quieter operation.

_________________
1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

Support SPCR through these links: Amazon and Newegg


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:32 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:
1 and 2) The hard drive can be set to stop spinning and go into an idle state until the PC requires to write or read from it. You can set the length of time it takes prior to spinning down a couple of different ways. It's always good to set up a power plan to determine how long of idle b4 the monitor blanks and the PC goes to sleep. So, let's go there.
In windows 10 settings / power and sleep / additional power settings (on the right) / set up a custom plan / change plan settings / change advanced power settings / hard disk / turn off hard disk after xx minutes

Also found via
Control panel / power options / etc...

3) Nothing that says "this is effing awesome". I'm using the built in app from MS, but it is a space hog for me.

4) No real benefit other than some have longer warranties than others. Stick with 5400rpm class for quieter operation.


you are awesome! thanks again! btw do I post my build here or?


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 Post subject: Re: Need advices on a silent build for Music Production Syst
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:42 am 
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Here is fine. Single thread per build keeps all the info in one place.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung 860 Evo 500GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)

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