Arctic Silver CERAMIQUE...OR... AS-5?

alexb · Post by **alexb** » Thu Dec 25, 2003 8:04 pm

Wanna get a tube, which one's better the new AS-5 or CERAMIQUE? It's only 4$ more for AS-5 (with .3 grams more). Is it worth it? Which one's easier to apply?

Thnx

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 5:38 am

Flip a coin.

Preliminary reports seem to indicate that AS5 will cool a degree or two better than Ceramique.

But it's also harder to apply. I've seen is described as 'having the consistancy of peanut butter".

Personally I'd go with Ceramique. Cheaper, easier to apply and cools within a degree or two of AS5.

mtlcafan79 · Post by **mtlcafan79** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:28 pm

I wouldn't say as5 is like peanut butter... unless you mean the cheap runny kind. =) I didn't have any trouble spreading it out.

DryFire · Post by **DryFire** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:30 pm

I have used both. I would say ceramique is easier to use and clean up.
plus no settling period.

It also have no capacitive properties like AS5.

I currently have AS5 but if i were to reset teh sink i'd go with ASC.

wsc · Post by **wsc** » Fri Dec 26, 2003 9:59 pm

I'd never used any thermal goop until I tried AS5 and it went on very easily for me...

mormakil · Post by **mormakil** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 4:06 am

I bought long long ago a tube of AS2 and i've been it using for everything since them. Now reading this I'm considering of removing it and use either ASC or AS5, will it worth? How much difference in degrees?

wgragg · Post by **wgragg** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:34 am

I've used AS5 and didn't have any major issues with it. It does take a little more work, but it isn't that hard. I don't have any exp with Ceramique.

DryFire · Post by **DryFire** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 8:41 am

you may get 1-2 deg C maybe 3 max.

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Sat Dec 27, 2003 7:27 pm

Just as a FWIW mention, I did see a post over on Pro-Cooling the other night (sorry no pointer, but it would have been in one of the WC forums) that CLAIMED without any evidence, that AS5 would cause minor damage to your HSF surface if used for extended periods. I don't know what this user's expertise was, or the basis for his statement, so it may well have been inaccurate. It might also be possible that this might be an issue with some heat sink metals and not others (Al vs. Cu) (IMHO this might be possible depending on the exact chemistry of AS5)

I do NOT have details, so please don't ask me for them!

I am NOT making any claims that AS5 is bad stuff, or that ASC is better or worse, I am merely mentioning that I saw this post, which MIGHT be a reason for concern.

I know that one or more of the AS? folks hangs out here, perhaps they might care to comment?

Gooserider

EDIT: Correction, The post I mentioned was NOT on Pro-Cooling, it was HERE
by our own Chyld, about 1/2 way down. On looking at it a second time, I may have misinterpreted what he said, I will be asking in that thread...

Gooserider

chylld · Post by **chylld** » Sun Dec 28, 2003 4:02 am

yeh you misinterpreted it a bit. refer back to the other thread...

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:20 am

Gooserider wrote:Just as a FWIW mention, I did see a post over on Pro-Cooling the other night (sorry no pointer, but it would have been in one of the WC forums) that CLAIMED without any evidence, that AS5 would cause minor damage to your HSF surface if used for extended periods. I don't know what this user's expertise was, or the basis for his statement, so it may well have been inaccurate. It might also be possible that this might be an issue with some heat sink metals and not others (Al vs. Cu) (IMHO this might be possible depending on the exact chemistry of AS5)

I do NOT have details, so please don't ask me for them!

I am NOT making any claims that AS5 is bad stuff, or that ASC is better or worse, I am merely mentioning that I saw this post, which MIGHT be a reason for concern.

I know that one or more of the AS? folks hangs out here, perhaps they might care to comment?

Gooserider

EDIT: Correction, The post I mentioned was NOT on Pro-Cooling, it was HERE
by our own Chyld, about 1/2 way down. On looking at it a second time, I may have misinterpreted what he said, I will be asking in that thread...

Gooserider

It's NOT AS5 that's the problem, it's the stuff called "Nanotherm PCM+" that eats away heatsinks.

Follow the links I posted here for more details.

HaloJones · Post by **HaloJones** » Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:37 am

I have to take umbrage with claims of "1-2 degrees maybe 3C" from changing from AS2. Differences betwwen thermal compounds are virtually insignificant as demonstrated by many independent tests. Doing a single mounting with a heatsink and a range of different tests is totally inadequate. You can easily see differences of 3C just by taking off the sink and putting it back on.

I refer to Dan who proved that toothpaste performs better than AS3.

Do read the link, if nothing else, it will make you laugh.

wgragg · Post by **wgragg** » Sun Dec 28, 2003 1:04 pm

LOL....I wonder what toothpaste it was.....whitening...tartar control? And Vegemite? I always wondered what that stuff was good for!

In all fairness, I think the reason one should use a legitimate thermal compound is that toothpaste will probably break down in short order.

For laughs, I like to read the arguments on the other enthusiast boards concerning everyone's favorte tc. You would think their mother's were being insulted!

Post by **MikeC** » Sun Dec 28, 2003 6:13 pm

I refer to Dan who proved that toothpaste performs better than AS3.

Do read the link, if nothing else, it will make you laugh.

I've always had the same experience with TIM -- differences are marginal at best and difficult to duplicate. And I've long been a fan of Dan, in the world of tech web sites, his humor and straight up style are unique.

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Sun Dec 28, 2003 7:21 pm

chylld:
yeh you misinterpreted it a bit. refer back to the other thread...

Sorry about that

see my longer response in the other thread...

Gooserider

alexb · Post by **alexb** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 12:13 pm

How does Nanotherm Blue II compare to Arctic Silver ceramique?

Justin_R · Post by **Justin_R** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:53 am

HaloJones-

I take "umbrage" with your unsupported claim that "many independent tests" have shown that differences between thermal compounds are "virtually insignificant". The review at Dan's Data is flawed in ways that I've discussed in another post.

In that same post, I mention two thermal compound roundups that have a robust methodology (including, for example, allowing time to cure) and that obtain similar results showing that there are repeatable differences amongst different thermal compounds.

Gooserider · Post by **Gooserider** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:09 pm

Justin_R
I take "umbrage" with your unsupported claim that "many independent tests" have shown that differences between thermal compounds are "virtually insignificant". The review at Dan's Data is flawed in ways that I've discussed in another post.

Sorry, I tend to agree with Halo, however it has relatively little to do with test methodology and the like.

I find it worth noting that there is relatively little consistency in the rankings even among the tests that appear to be reasonably sound from a technique standpoint (and IMHO most can be criticized on one ground or another...) This suggests that the differences are small enough that errors in experimental technique can exceed the difference between test items.

Secondly, I would note that the listed temperature differences are also quite small, on the order of fractions of degrees in some cases, or at worst less than 5*C.

One can argue whether or or not this is a statistically significant difference, but remember the old saying about statistics lying and liars using statistics.... However I think I can quite safely argue that there is little FUNCTIONAL difference between the products!

For most people who aren't trying to play games with the hairy edge of overclockability, any of the usual TIM materials in combination with a good HSF or water block will give acceptable range CPU temps. (And I would argue that the cooler is far more important to this result than the TIM compound) If a CPU is in the acceptable range, a few degrees difference isn't going to make a significant difference in it's functionality or lifespan, and probably not even in it's ability to be cooled quietly.

Thus I feel that there are other factors more important to TIM selection than just the C/W rating, which I think is close enough among the good rated TIM's to be ignored. (I would probably pass on the low rated ones regardless) I would look at things like ease of application, durability, corrosiveness, and cost effectiveness. Based on these other factors, I would probably go with either ASC or AS5

Gooserider

Justin_R · Post by **Justin_R** » Sat Jan 17, 2004 10:45 pm

Gooserider wrote:I find it worth noting that there is relatively little consistency in the rankings even among the tests that appear to be reasonably sound from a technique standpoint (and IMHO most can be criticized on one ground or another...)

To which tests are you referring? In the two reviews I cited as examples of good technique, the general trend is certainly similar. Are these tests flawless? No. But are they at least robust enough to be credible? Yes.

Gooserider wrote:One can argue whether or or not this is a statistically significant difference, but remember the old saying about statistics lying and liars using statistics....

Actually, there's not much of an argument to be made. The only statistical test you could perform on the data from any of the particular reviews mentioned would be to adopt a null hypothesis that all thermal compounds perform the same (meaning each measurement is drawn from the same distribution), and see how unusual the results are given that hypothesis. You couldn't actually test for differences between specific compounds, since there's only one measurement for each compound. So, with the data that's there, you can't say if specific differences are statistically significant, just if the data don't conform to the assumption that they're all drawn from the same distribution. Oh, and my personal old saying says that liars don't use statistics, because they prefer hand-waving about how "experimental error" covers up differences that, however small in magnitude, are real. (See "global warming".)

Gooserider wrote:However I think I can quite safely argue that there is little FUNCTIONAL difference between the products!

I don't really disagree. Of course, there's also little "FUNCTIONAL" difference in a CPU that runs 40C as opposed to one that runs 50C, unless it happens to have some consequence in terms of what kind of cooling system / overclock / whatever you can achieve. But just because the temperature difference is not "functional" does not mean that the difference does not exist.

silvervarg · Post by **silvervarg** » Sun Jan 18, 2004 7:12 am

If you compate a really good TIM with a really bad one you will quickly notice the difference. However we are way beyond the really bad TIM's today.
So what we are really comparing is good TIM vs very good TIM.
Examples of TIM's might be:
Nanotherms PCM+
Arctic Cooling silicon based stuff (shipped with coolers)
Arctic Silver III
Arctic Silver Ceramique
Arctic Silver 5

If you look at the performance of these TIM's I think Gooserider has a good point. The real difference between best and worst among these candidates are in the ~3*C range as I can recall from tests.

Knowing that aplication etc can make much more difference we should look into 2 different categories of people.
1. People that change CPU HSF often.
2. People how are likely to change a CPU HSF once every 2-3 years.

It is also important to seem how much a few degrees on the CPU will affect each person.
In most cases I would recommend the use of Ceramique even if a perfectly applied layer of AS5 and perfectly mounted heatsink would perform 1*C better.
I do use AS5 myself, but have not done any comparable tests with Ceramique, I am just lazy enough to just trust other tests.

wgragg · Post by **wgragg** » Sun Jan 18, 2004 7:28 am

With the temps being that close, it would seem to me to be prudent to used the TIM that is the easiest to apply. I use AS5 and it is a bit difficult to apply, so the chances of getting too much are greater. In fact, it would make sense that one would get better temps with properly applied ceramique vs. improperly applied AS5.

alexb · Post by **alexb** » Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:55 am

I agree with you all

I think the point is 1-2 degrees is not a big deal and is within range of test errors. However, 5 degress in my book is a biggie. That means a quieter fan!

So, they way I sum it up is that AS3, AS5, AS-C, Neoprene PCM+ are within that 1-2 degree difference, I chose to order AS-Cermique since it seems to be easiest to apply and cheaper. There's almost no point to switch if you have one of these.

Now, the Shin-Etsu 751 seems to be in its own league and yields about 5 degrees difference. So, my next tube's gonna be Shin-Etsu... and if I am not happy with my temp on SLK-800/AS-C/Panaflo, may try the Shin-Etsu.

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:33 am

alexb wrote:I agree with you all

I think the point is 1-2 degrees is not a big deal and is within range of test errors. However, 5 degress in my book is a biggie. That means a quieter fan!

So, they way I sum it up is that AS3, AS5, AS-C, Neoprene PCM+ are within that 1-2 degree difference, I chose to order AS-Cermique since it seems to be easiest to apply and cheaper. There's almost no point to switch if you have one of these.

And if you notice, that's exactly what I suggested doing 3 weeks ago. I can't believe people spend so much time discussing something that makes such little difference, temperature-wise. That's why I based my recommendation on 1) ease of application+cleanup, 2) safety of use, and 3) price.

alexb wrote:Now, the Shin-Etsu 751 seems to be in its own league and yields about 5 degrees difference. So, my next tube's gonna be Shin-Etsu... and if I am not happy with my temp on SLK-800/AS-C/Panaflo, may try the Shin-Etsu.

The Shin-Etsu is very, very hard to apply. I have tons of experience applying thermal compounds and this stuff is a Class A pain in the ass to apply. I didn't see any big improvement when I used it, but it was so difficult to apply that I may not have got it on correctly.

wgragg · Post by **wgragg** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 5:41 am

Sorry Ralf, I have slept multiple times since you recommended that. and considering I do a memory dump nightly, well, I just didn't remember.

How about a change of topic. For example, we could always discuss whether it is best to squeeze the tube from the top or the middle....

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:21 am

wgragg wrote:How about a change of topic. For example, we could always discuss whether it is best to squeeze the tube from the top or the middle....

Tube? They're in syringes.

And I've found that the compound will cool 3.273°C better if you hold the syringe in your left hand as you squeeze out the compound, as compared to holding it in your right hand. Something to do with the Coriolis Effect, IIRC.

Jan Kivar · Post by **Jan Kivar** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:25 am

Ralf Hutter wrote:And I've found that the compound will cool 3.273°C better if you hold the syringe in your left hand as you squeeze out the compound, as compared to holding it in your right hand. Something to do with the Coriolis Effect, IIRC.

Seems that I'm oriented to the northern hemisphere, as I'm left-handed.

Jan

Post by **Ralf Hutter** » Mon Jan 19, 2004 12:17 pm

Jan Kivar wrote:
Ralf Hutter wrote:And I've found that the compound will cool 3.273°C better if you hold the syringe in your left hand as you squeeze out the compound, as compared to holding it in your right hand. Something to do with the Coriolis Effect, IIRC.

Seems that I'm oriented to the northern hemisphere, as I'm left-handed.

Jan

Hah, I'm left handed too! See, I knew I was on to something.

wheredoibegin · Post by **wheredoibegin** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 4:27 am

Ralf Hutter wrote: And I've found that the compound will cool 3.273°C better if you hold the syringe in your left hand as you squeeze out the compound, as compared to holding it in your right hand. Something to do with the Coriolis Effect, IIRC.

Hmmmm... as an australian right hander i can confirm that it is indeed the coriolis effect as i've seen temp drops from using my right hand to apply thermal compound, i had always thought it was because i have crap co-ordination in my left hand but this makes far more sense....

with the law of diminishing returns affecting thermal paste these days how long can it be until "do the hokey pokey" is listed as one of the instructions with TIM?

wgragg · Post by **wgragg** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:33 am

wheredoibegin wrote:[

with the law of diminishing returns affecting thermal paste these days how long can it be until "do the hokey pokey" is listed as one of the instructions with TIM?

That is what those tiny Japanese letters on the syringe say! Dang it! No wonder I can't get my air cooled cpu below ambient room temp! I'm not doing the hokey-pokey. And here I thought it was the polka we were supposed to do.

sonofdbn · Post by **sonofdbn** » Tue Jan 20, 2004 7:43 am

wheredoibegin wrote:
Ralf Hutter wrote: And I've found that the compound will cool 3.273°C better if you hold the syringe in your left hand as you squeeze out the compound, as compared to holding it in your right hand. Something to do with the Coriolis Effect, IIRC.
Hmmmm... as an australian right hander i can confirm that it is indeed the coriolis effect as i've seen temp drops from using my right hand to apply thermal compound, i had always thought it was because i have crap co-ordination in my left hand but this makes far more sense....

with the law of diminishing returns affecting thermal paste these days how long can it be until "do the hokey pokey" is listed as one of the instructions with TIM?

I just hope we're still talking about applying the stuff to CPUs....