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 Post subject: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:02 am 
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Hi!
Im building a quiet build with a Define R6-chassi. I wish to be able to control the three included stock fans (Fractal Design Dynamic X2 GP-14 140 mm) with fan curves to avoid having them spinning at 1000 rpm all the time.

As I learned from another forum, the fan hub can be used by connecting it to a CHA-FAN input and then set fan curves based on for instance MOBO-temp (and having the CPU-FAN separately connected to to just the cpu-fan, which is a NH-D15). BUT, to be able to use the stock fans (non-pwm), i need to atleast input 1 PWM-fan in to the hub. I have a B450 Tomahawk MAX motherboard, does anyone have any experience with this combo?

Plan:
1. Replace 1 front intake fan with another premium fan to 1) Increase static pressure at 2) a lower noice level. My intent is to replace the lower fan to a higher performing fan and then directly aim this 140mm fan at the GPU (which is the R6 weak point).
2. Place the removed stock fan as a bottom intake fan as far in the chassi as the PSU will allow and then cover up the remaining mesh (from the fan towards the front) with cardboard to remove any posibility of cold air leaking out the bottom (big cred to Teodoro who did thorough testing on this viewtopic.php?f=15&p=610653#p610653). I will also raise the chassi 5-10cm above the ground to improve airflow from the bottom for the PSU and the bottom intake fan.
3. This would leave me with 3 intake fans (1 Stock in front, 1 Premium in front directed to the GPU, 1 stock in bottom) and 1 fan in the rear blowing air out.

Questions:
1. Thoughts on the plan?

2. Never modified a chassis fan-curve before. Any tips on how to think when testing out and optimizing the fan curve? Recommended temperature reading to base the chassi fans on? (heard that CPU is a bad idea to the aggresive temperature changes it goes through). Can i just do it in BIOS for the MSI Tomahawk or should I use a software?

3. What Premium Chassi Fan? I want to increase the airflow to the GPU and want it to be more silent than the stock fans. Based on these forums and other I have kind of narrowed it down to the following options and I've added some specs whereof I assume that the static pressure is the most important for a front intake case fan?
a. Stock Coolers (Comparison) - 1000 rpm - 18,9dba - 0.71 mm H2O static pressure - 68.4 CFM
b. Noctua NF-A14 PWM 140mm with LNA - 300-1200 rpm - 13,8-19,2dba - 1.51 H20 static pressure - 52 - 82.5 CFM
c. Be Quiet! Silent Wings 3 PWM 140mm - max? 1000 rpm - Max 15,5dba - 1.08 mm H20 static pressure - 59.5 CFM

Based on this, the Silent Wings 3 would increase the static pressure would by 50% while reducing the maximum by ~20%?
The NF-A14 would increase static pressure by +110% while increasing maximum noise by 0,3dba (while lowering it when not maxed out)

What do you think? I can get the NF-A14 for around 21 EUR and the Silent wings 3 for around 25 EUR.

Thanks alot!


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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:00 am 
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The mobo has 4 chassis fan connections that can be PWM or DC. Why not just use this instead of the case fan hub?

BIOS also lets you set the ramp up and ramp down time, so you can avoid any instantaneous changes in CPU temp.

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 5:16 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
The mobo has 4 chassis fan connections that can be PWM or DC. Why not just use this instead of the case fan hub?

BIOS also lets you set the ramp up and ramp down time, so you can avoid any instantaneous changes in CPU temp.


Ah nice good to know! Regardless perhaps let the exhaust fan play around on his own and then intake fans are on a separate setting.

If you would recommend an additional front intake fan, which would you recommend?


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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:32 am 
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I'd suggest starting with the stock fans first with two front and one rear. Get a feel for the system and fan curves. Then modify as needed. For the case fans at CPU idle, set them at the min startup (probably 500rpm). Then, set a gentle slope to maybe 800rpm at 65C. Then, maybe 1000rpm at 80C. Set the fan updates to ~5 sec so rapid/short CPU changes don't impact it. Then, fiddle with it to suit your acoustic/thermal needs. There's a point where faster just doesn't make it much cooler - just louder.

If it turns out the Fractal fans aren't quiet enough, then go for replacements in the front (most noticeable)..and you can mess around with bottom fan and case venting.

If the case sits on a hard surface, there is no reason to raise it up (unless you have a lot of dust and fur issues).

I don't know much about the current breed of 212 coolers...in the past they were cheap and ok for cooling. You might look at the Scythe Kotetsu Mark II.

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:01 am 
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I second steve suggestion, try the included fans, the R6 comes with 3x140mm fans. The MSI Tomahawk should (i don't own one, but a Z370), have switchable headers, remember they are not automatic like on Asus boards, you need to enter the bios and switch them from PWM to DC, then enable the smart (in some cases if you dont do this, you can't setup the graph), and bind them to a sensor, i usually do most of my fan control to the CPU temperature, its up to you to decide what will work best.

Scythe Kotestu Mark II or Mugen Rev5 would be my pics for cpu cooler, the mugen will not block the memory slots even with tall memory, now if you want the best performance you can get, Noctua NH-D15S would be my pick, adding a second NF-A12x25 and making sure you get standard height memory like Corsair LPX.

If after you tested you feel the fractal fans are not good enough for you, i would recommend the BeQuiet BL067 (remember to switch back the headers on the bios to PWM).

Quote:
Never modified a chassis fan-curve before. Any tips on how to think when testing out and optimizing the fan curve? Recommended temperature reading to base the chassi fans on? (heard that CPU is a bad idea to the aggresive temperature changes it goes through). Can i just do it in BIOS for the MSI Tomahawk or should I use a software?
I would use only bios, MSI is very good on their bios fan control. How should you modify the fan curve.... its up to you, what I do is
1) Set the fan a conservative fan graph just to boot and install windows, usually 50% works decent (although depends on the fans).
2) Install windows and your apps, and see are your temperature, in the past HWInfo was one of the few that reported the Tdie temperature correctly not sure on ryzen 3000.
3) Check the noise levels and do usual things, like we browsing, watching videos, open apps like ms office, etc, and see your spikes on temperatures on this light tasks, this is likely to give you a peak light temperature, i use this temp to set my first breakpoint there.
4) Once i establish the peak light temperature, i start playing with the fan curves, usually i set it very mildly increase and ramp up quickly until you reach the max temp you are comfortable. This is very subjective, you gotta boot and start loading your PC, i usually run aida64 stability test, given that its not a real world scenario, i still like it to set up the max speed and to check how capable is my cooler. from there i change my breakpoints until i like how it ramps up depending on the load.

You will also have to play with the case fans, and this is likely to change things, but the impact that case fans have are not as dramatic as the CPU fan (considering only the cpu), so i usually have much less aggressive fan curves on case fans, sometimes i don't even allow them to go the max rpms, this are decisions you have to take once you have your setup running.

The above is how i do it, there are others that like ramping from from the begging, even some like to stop certain fans under certain temps, in some scenarios it can be done, but with hotter running components this if not set correctly leads to issues that i dislike like having breathing effects due to fans ramping up and down to quickly, there are delays that can be establish on certain fan controls, but for most of my builds its a challenge to keep them quiet, and thus this settings are not appropriate, but it can be done with the right hardware and correct planning.

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:26 pm 
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Thanks for your suggestions guys! I already have a NH-D15 coming in, so hopefully that paired with a solid 5700 XT partner card (i.e. heavy and silent) will help reduce the overall sound level and also mitigate the silence focus case.

I will try the case with the stock fans first, but If I feel I need some extra airflow I will get a NF-A14 (as I noticed it cost around 7-8 EUR less than the SLW3) with the LNA attached to limit sounds.

Thanks for the walkthrough on how to think about fan curves!


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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:36 pm 
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fyi - MSI has auto mode sensing in the BIOS (at least that's what the manual shows).

The D15 paired with the 65W R5 3600 is a bit overkill. :) Chances are you won't need to go above 500rpm on the cooler's fans.

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 12:46 pm 
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lindstroem wrote:
I will try the case with the stock fans first, but If I feel I need some extra airflow I will get a NF-A14 (as I noticed it cost around 7-8 EUR less than the SLW3) with the LNA attached to limit sounds.
My R6 i running 4x BeQuiet BL067 as intakes, they are very good fans but limited ariflow at 1000rpms, still is fine for TR1950x build, personally i don't like NF-A14, specially past 800rpms on R4 had a drowning sound behind filters that i didn't like, but this is subjective what bother me might not bother you, that said im happy with my BQ BL067, but if you truly think you need more rpms, there is a 1600rpm version from them, be quiet! Silent Wings 3 140mm PWM High-Speed, BL071, you can still regulate the speed via PWM.

lindstroem wrote:
Thanks for your suggestions guys! I already have a NH-D15 coming in,
What memory are you running? the NH-D15 is really good cooler (the best that i have tested) as long as you can run dual fans, but the memory limits this.

lindstroem wrote:
So hopefully that paired with a solid 5700 XT partner card (i.e. heavy and silent) will help reduce the overall sound level and also mitigate the silence focus case.
I have good hopes for the ASUS Strix version, its the same cooler as my RTX2080ti, if it can cool that quietly, its very likely it will handle the 5700xt fine, besides it comes with a dual bios so you can chose either quiet operation (turn off fans and have a less agressive fan curve) or performance (fans always spin). MSI gaming trio could be a very good option as well.

Quote:
The D15 paired with the 65W R5 3600 is a bit overkill.
I cant seem to find this on his post.

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:53 pm 
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viewtopic.php?p=610603#p610603

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 1:20 am 
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CA_Steve wrote:
fyi - MSI has auto mode sensing in the BIOS (at least that's what the manual shows).

The D15 paired with the 65W R5 3600 is a bit overkill. :) Chances are you won't need to go above 500rpm on the cooler's fans.


Auto sensing mode = detects automatically if the SYS-FAN connection interacts with a PWM or DC-fan?

Impressive that you remember my processor from another post :) Indeed it might be a bit overkill, but dual fan setup will hopefully improve the general airflow in the case and perhaps help move warm air away from the GPU (perhaps play around with the RPM to be as high as possible on the NH-D15 without being audible?). Also it's pleasant to have a strong player if I decide to upgrade later on (I can just take this with my with a future system and cell the 3600 with the unused stock cooler).

Abula wrote:
What memory are you running? the NH-D15 is really good cooler (the best that i have tested) as long as you can run dual fans, but the memory limits this.

I am planning on buying Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200mhz CL 16 (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0143U ... B7XF&psc=1)
As I take it they should fit snuggly beneath the NH-D15 intake fan?

A completely separate question not at all related to sound, do you know which RAM-slots i should populate for best efficiency?

Abula wrote:
I have good hopes for the ASUS Strix version, its the same cooler as my RTX2080ti, if it can cool that quietly, its very likely it will handle the 5700xt fine, besides it comes with a dual bios so you can chose either quiet operation (turn off fans and have a less agressive fan curve) or performance (fans always spin). MSI gaming trio could be a very good option as well.

Indeed, either that or Palit JetStream also seems to be a good contender (if they release it) although they are a bit restrictive when coming to sales markets. My only fear when looking at prices creeping up to >500 USD, is that they rapidly become a direct 1:1 contender on lower end 2070-Super cards which already have better cooling and lower noise levels. Really want the 5700XT but wont close my eyes and open the wallet for AMD :)


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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:51 am 
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Quote:
Auto sensing mode = detects automatically if the SYS-FAN connection interacts with a PWM or DC-fan?

Yep.

Ram slots: manuals usually point it out.

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:19 am 
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lindstroem wrote:
Auto sensing mode = detects automatically if the SYS-FAN connection interacts with a PWM or DC-fan?
Interesting, mine doesn't, but at the same time i had an issue recently with AsRock Z390 ITX-AC, where one of the headers was autodetect (im assuming the same as auto sensing) and wasn't dropping the BL067 as my other motherboard could, i though first i had a defective fan but turn out that the header was not detecting correctly the 4pin PWM and was using DC or undervolting, once i manually switch to PWM it worked correctly as it has on my other builds, for this i still recommend you dial or select the correct one on your bios.

Quote:
I am planning on buying Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200mhz CL 16 (https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0143U ... B7XF&psc=1)
As I take it they should fit snuggly beneath the NH-D15 intake fan?
Yes, the second will be able to be mounted on the front of the cooler, the benefit of this is will allow you much lower rpms, not that you need it with the 3600, but none the less you might be able to drop to low rpms. I leave you two intersting rececently released videos,
Hardware Unboxed: 3rd Gen Ryzen DDR4 Memory Performance, XMP vs. Manual Timings
TechDeals: Does RAM Speed Matter? — Which Should You Buy for Zen 2? — 7 RAM Kits Tested

Quote:
A completely separate question not at all related to sound, do you know which RAM-slots i should populate for best efficiency?
As Steve posted, check your manual, the manufacturers recommend which are the two that should be filled first or in other words the recommended. Usually or at least in the all my past builds over the last four years, the furthest pair from the cpu socket is the one that all the manuals have recommended, in most cases they come color coded or labeled (but by pair i don't mean right beside, its one in between).

Quote:
Super cards which already have better cooling and lower noise levels. Really want the 5700XT but wont close my eyes and open the wallet for AMD :)
I like more nvidia, and still today i would likely pay a little more for them, i feel they are more efficient cards, but certainly the 5700xt looks like a good offering from AMD, and with Asus Strix behind it with the three slot cooler i feel its going to be a good option.

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 7:45 am 
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Techspot: Memory speeds and Ryzen

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 12:02 pm 
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CA_Steve wrote:

They did a great job designing that set of tests. Isolated comparisons of latency, frequency, and tuning above XMP, all within normal use ranges. And they covered synthetics, applications, and low+average game framerates, with a wide variety of graphics cards.

Every other memory scaling review I've read previously would mess this up: they'd test 2666-CL14 against 4000-CL18, or they'd only measure average frame rates. I'm used to seeing Techspot fall into one of these traps, so it's a nice surprise that they did this test right.


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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 2:15 pm 
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Memory pricing is fairly flat between 3200 and 3600 speeds for some vendors, too. $17 difference for Corsair Vengeance LPX, for example.

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:31 am 
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Ah interesting!
Out of Corsair Vengeance LPX 3000 CL15 (85 EUR) and Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200 CL16 (100 EUR), which would you choose? :)
Guess I have to read in on how to adjust the memory timings afterwards as well :)


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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:00 am 
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Not sure where you are in the EU, but in Germany, you can get the 3600 LPX for ~ 105 euros.

If not that, go for 3200 over 3000.

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:31 am 
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lindstroem wrote:
Guess I have to read in on how to adjust the memory timings afterwards as well :)
Hardware Unboxed How to Manually Tune Your DDR4 Memory For Ryzen

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 10:25 am 
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Ok - I didn't watch the video...Isn't there a 3rd party utility that will give you a first order tuning for Ryzen based RAM?

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 Post subject: Re: R6 Define - Improve GPU-Cooling & Use fan-hub
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:27 am 
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Abula wrote:
lindstroem wrote:
Guess I have to read in on how to adjust the memory timings afterwards as well :)
Hardware Unboxed How to Manually Tune Your DDR4 Memory For Ryzen


Ah nice that seems easy enough! :)


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