!!!China vs. Japan Panaflo and Globe 120 vs. AF120CT!!!

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 7:01 pm

I think the AF92C spins at only like 1850 also, which puts it closest to a 92mm L1A, not M1B; the problem is, if you noticed, my M1B is quieter than my L1A, in terms of motor noise.

The 92mm L1A definitely cannot compare to the AcoustiFan, even if they were spinning the same speed. I doubt the M1B would be as good, either, but it would be quite close!

-Ed

PS Of course, once again, it all goes back to manufacturing consistency, and it appears to me that Globe has the advantage in this respect. Every single AF80CT and AF92CT performs virtually identical, while the consistency of my Panaflos is obviously quite poor.

Pancserzso · Post by **Pancserzso** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:15 am

I have three questions:

1. How can I tell the difference between a 80mm L1A built in Japan from one built China (if it is possible by examining the label)?

2. Is there any reliable European internet shop for 80mm Japaflow L1As?

3. For really low noise, is it possible to power the 80mm Japaflow L1As just using the main 5V (no Fanmate)?

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:18 am

Yes, the label indicates where it is made.

Unfortunately, I do not know about shops in Europe.

5 volts from the main line is perfectly fine for starting up and running the Panaflo L1A.

-Ed

akaidiot · Post by **akaidiot** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:02 pm

Pancserzso What I would recommend to you is to contact Dorothy Bradbury, she runs a great quiet fan shop. Which I myself has used, and highly recommend. She is operating in the UK os if you live in EU you won't have to worry of taxes and customs etc.

Pancserzso · Post by **Pancserzso** » Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:54 pm

Nifti thanks for the contact, I will order some L1A's soon.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:24 am

Want to just make a very quick and simple update...

John over at Jab-Tech has graciously donated another six samples of the 80mm L1A to the cause; three from Japan and three from China. In my listening tests, all three new Japanaflos are perfectly manufacturered, and produce zero motor noise. Of the three new Chinaflos, two perform precisely the same as their Japanese counterparts, but the third one still produces the motor chaff noise (sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh...).

This brings my personal count to three good 80mm Japanese L1A's, one bad Japanese L1A, two good Chinese 80mm L1A's and two bad Chinese ones. Also count one perfectly fine 92mm Japanese M1B and one bad 92mm Chinese L1A.

Four good from Japan and one bad.

Two good from China and three bad.

-Ed

bomba · Post by **bomba** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:04 am

Edward Ng wrote:Of the three new Chinaflos, two perform precisely the same as their Japanese counterparts, but the third one still produces the motor chaff noise (sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh sh...).

Great description, I received 10 or so 80mm L1A Chinaflos from SVC Compucycle some time ago and they ALL made the sh sh sh noise, tho a couple were quieter than others. Gotta wonder if the maglev design will be become the new "gold standard" in quiet fan design.

mpteach · Post by **mpteach** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:53 am

maglev??

bomba · Post by **bomba** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:15 am

mpteach wrote:maglev??

Don't want to pull this thread OT as Sunon's magnetic levitation fans have been discussd in other SPCR Fans & Control threads. However, thus far I have not seen any firsthand reports of how good (or bad) maglev fans are from a silencing perspective.

More info on maglev from Sunon here.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:03 pm

The 40mm fan included with Swiftech's MCX-159 northbridge cooler that I have is one of their maglev models; unfortunately, being the 40mm model, it spins incredibly fast, so I don't think it is a good example of acoustic performance for that reason. Best to leave judgements on the maglev fans to a proper test of larger models and to another thread...

-Ed

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:28 pm

ONEshot · Post by **ONEshot** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:14 pm

How did you get it to run at 5v?

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 6:21 pm

Only way that I can do that, personally, is to snip & short the thermistor to run it at a set 5volts. With the thermistor active, it takes very high temperature to get enough voltage past the thermistor to the motor to make the fan start.

Can't speak for CactusInvasion (:shock:), though.

-Ed

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:50 pm

You know...

I like cats more than dogs, myself.

Just coincidence? Hmm...

bobov · Post by **bobov** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:36 am

Edward, are the fan connector holes in AcoustiFan AF120CT one long cylinder? Like Globe 120s fan?

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:20 pm

I'm not sure I fully understand your question, but I'll try to make a relevant comment...

The AF120CT and Globe120 fans both utilize 3-pin connectors, the type that plug directly into the motherboard for power as well as supplying fan speed rate data to the board's system monitor chip. The three holes in the fan's female connector are square shaped, and when you look into them, you can see that the connector itself, inside, is curved, similar to leaf-spring suspension on pick-up trucks and C5 Corvettes (although on C5's, they're not metal, but polymer), such as to apply pressure against the pins of the male connectors on your mainboard.

You are describing cylindrical holes, which are the female side of a molex connector, which is four connector, not three. Molex is the type attached to power supplies for powering the faster AGP graphics cards as well as parallel ATA and/or SCSI hard disk drives and compact disc or digital video disc drives. The AF120CT and Globe 120s do not come with molex connectors, because molex does not supply fan speed data; it is merely two ground channels, one 12volt channel and one 5volt channel.

I did notice, however, that the Globe 120 that I have exhausting in Alpha Three has smaller pinholes in its power connector than this spare AF120CT I have on hand. I have taken pictures also, hoping that they may answer your questions:

Pinholes:

Topside:

Underside:

In all three images, the Globe120's connector is on the left and the AF120CT's connector is on the right.

Yes, that's my hand.

-Ed

Pauli · Post by **Pauli** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:39 pm

Edward, I think bobov was referring to the holes that are used to attach the fan to the case, not the power connector holes. The Globe 120mm has a cylindrical "tube" that runs the entire depth of the fan for each screw. bobov was asking if the AF120CT was the same.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:42 pm

You know? That never occurred to me!

The AF120CT's corners are open, while the Globe 120's corners are closed.

Seems you guys have hit upon the single most important difference between the two!

But thanks for clearing that up for me. And no, the AF120CT does not have the full depth screw tunnel like the Globes; they're open corners.

bobov · Post by **bobov** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:11 pm

Thanks a lot. So the AF120CT have open corners. That's good. I can not use those blue silicon grommets to mount Globe120s. It seems we can not use Globe120s on thermalright XP-120 due to the closed corner. See the picture

http://www.systemcooling.com/images/rev ... ed2_lg.jpg

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:28 pm

bobov, do you have a rotary tool? Set the rotary to a low speed (so as to not melt the plastic) and it would not be too difficult to open up the corners. Cut inward once on each end of the little tunnel (right past where the open-corner fans open up) and then go directly in through the little diagonal strip of plastic that holds the leftover, "tunnel," on, and that should do it.

It's a simple enough mod that can save you money (over buying AF120CT), assuming you already have a rotary. If you don't have a rotary, then it won't be much help; a rotary tool costs at least $45 for a Black & Decker model, so you'd have to mod at least four Globes to make up the cost of just buying AF120CTs instead.

ONEshot · Post by **ONEshot** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:02 pm

Or you could just use three blue grommets.

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:06 pm

Wait, three? How? All four corners are closed.

wim · Post by **wim** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 2:33 am

Edward Ng wrote:I have decided to answer two questions that have been up in the air in a concrete manner, once and for all!
...
Are the China-fabbed Panaflos truly inferior to the Japan-fabbed pieces?
Yes!

And to you, the reader, I present the following evidence...

-snip-

Going back to the issue of the Panaflos...
Just with this small sample of fans I have here, there is no longer a hint of doubt in mind that the Japan made Panaflos are superior....

i can't believe there were not any strong objections here to your original post. it was a glaring example of poor testing procedure, and combined with complete disregard for sample variance you're showing a large degree of statistical ignorance. (eg. how is it that there is 'no longer a hint of doubt in your mind', for all you know the retailer could have dropped your chinaflos on the floor!)

it appears your panaflo samples were
-china 80L
-japan 92M
-china 92L
no pairs of which are the same model of fan produced in a different factory, basically giving you a useful sample size of 0.
the 80 and the 92 mm fans are a completely different fan and obviously can't be directly compared. the 92M and 92L are also a different model, and granted the M should theoretically spin faster/louder, you're introducing too many extra factors by comparing an M and an L (different manufacturing process for a different model). it's not fair to blame the china factory (yet).

add to the fact that there seems to be by far most interest/demand for the 80L's, i don't know why you're even making such general claims based on your good experience with ONE 92M - it's not necessarily of any relevance to the 80L at all.

later you get 3 more from each of japan and china. that's good.
but you should still be doing blind testing. and you still should have samples from a variety of sources. and your sample size is still too small to be claiming to "answer the question in a concrete manner, once and for all"
unless you can provide some better evidence, you're making a fairly defamatory statement here - if i was the manager at the chinese factory, i'd be cheesed-off

of course i'd like to actually contribute some useful information here rather than just slag ed off, so i'll tell you all about my experiences with panaflos. myself and another with silent pc interests pooled together our fans for some listening tests yesterday, turned out we had eight 80mm FBA08A12L's in total from a variety of sources (ebay auctions, siliconacoustics..)

yeah i can count, but one of the panaflos was actaully at work cooling a computer at the time of the photo

the chinese and japanese fans look pretty much the same apart from the label, but they have different tails. i also noticed the chinese fans tended to have three circles on the hub, none of the japanese fans did.

the japanaflos (one of which is spinning over my HDs as i type) are labelled like so, and the chinaflos are similar

so we turned everything audible off to get ambient noise down as low as possible, then did some listening tests at 5V and 12V (both going straight to the 5/12 VDC rails, not using fan mates - have heard rumour that fan mates can cause extra fan noise because of PWM?). We were plugging pairs of fans in at the same time and holding one up to each ear - don't have a sound meter but i'd probably trust my ears more anyway.

results:
-neither myself nor my friend could consistently identify differences between the fans
-at 5V: ALL fans make what i think ed was calling motor chaff noise (sh sh sh sh sh sh sh) but it's only audible when the hub is a centimeter or two away from the ear
-at one stage there was a pairwise comparison where i felt one fan was slightly louder than the other it turned out to be the chinaflo which seemed quiter, but there was barely a thing in it at all (variance if not psychology and certainly not reason to start blaming country of manufacture)

so basically i don't have much to conclude, except that i don't think it's true that panaflos from china are really lesser quality than the panaflos from japan.

the group of chinaflos (6) was very consistent, i was imressed because they all performed well. there was very tight variance within the samples. none of those were my fans, but were really cheap and i would certainly recommend buying these. they're a lot better than every papst i have tried. i think with this thread you may have caused a lot of people to worry unnecessarily about the country of manufacture of panaflos.
as far as i'm concerned, there's not much in it and unless some better evidence comes along
-you're probably wasting retailers time by getting them to check the label before you buy
-you're ripping yourself off by paying $1 extra for guaranteed japan-made panaflos.
-this dubious claim should be removed from the recommended fan list ("no information is better than misinformation")

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:28 am

wim wrote:i can't believe there were not any strong objections here to your original post. it was a glaring example of poor testing procedure, and combined with complete disregard for sample variance you're showing a large degree of statistical ignorance. (eg. how is it that there is 'no longer a hint of doubt in your mind', for all you know the retailer could have dropped your chinaflos on the floor!)

Maybe that's why this was posted in the forums instead of as an official article in the main site, just like my circuit comparison over in the water cooling thread. Just like that circuit comparison, the results are reported as observed and what data I could get is provided, but that data is limited, which is why it's no official write-up. Any old Joe can post whatever they like in the forums here; pick and choose what you want to take and what you don't feel like believing in here. What makes my forum posts any different than anyone else's? After all, I joined this community in the very same manner, just some random guy who decided to get into PC silencing and started participating in the community. If anyone else other than myself, Russ, Ralf or Mike posted this, would your feedback be equally negative in attitude?

Or is it that I'm a, "confessed audiophile," that brought this tone of engagement forth?

wim wrote:it appears your panaflo samples were
-china 80L
-japan 92M
-china 92L
no pairs of which are the same model of fan produced in a different factory, basically giving you a useful sample size of 0.
the 80 and the 92 mm fans are a completely different fan and obviously can't be directly compared. the 92M and 92L are also a different model, and granted the M should theoretically spin faster/louder, you're introducing too many extra factors by comparing an M and an L (different manufacturing process for a different model). it's not fair to blame the china factory (yet). add to the fact that there seems to be by far most interest/demand for the 80L's, i don't know why you're even making such general claims based on your good experience with ONE 92M - it's not necessarily of any relevance to the 80L at all.

Perfectly valid statement; this is why, as I said, take what you will, leave what you won't. There's nothing official about some random forum post, even if it's jazzed up with photos and structured in presentation--anyone could do that.

wim wrote:later you get 3 more from each of japan and china. that's good.
but you should still be doing blind testing. and you still should have samples from a variety of sources. and your sample size is still too small to be claiming to "answer the question in a concrete manner, once and for all"
unless you can provide some better evidence, you're making a fairly defamatory statement here - if i was the manager at the chinese factory, i'd be cheesed-off

Correct; my sample size is incredibly small. Panasonic's production level on these fans must be in the hundreds of thousands, if not millions. It is also likely that early production run pieces were the ones that were more seriously flawed, and none of the fans are marked for their production date. If you want to talk about a reasonable sample size, we'd have to take two cases out of each batch every single run since production started at both factories and do a mass comparison--neither of us will likely have such a sample base. I'll also add that anyone is free to post their own results here as well, just as you have done yourself.

I don't think you're the GM at the fab in China, but you do sound cheesed-off either way. Perhaps it still hits at home some place?

wim wrote:of course i'd like to actually contribute some useful information here rather than just slag ed off, so i'll tell you all about my experiences with panaflos. myself and another with silent pc interests pooled together our fans for some listening tests yesterday, turned out we had eight 80mm FBA08A12L's in total from a variety of sources (ebay auctions, siliconacoustics..)

yeah i can count, but one of the panaflos was actaully at work cooling a computer at the time of the photo

the chinese and japanese fans look pretty much the same apart from the label, but they have different tails. i also noticed the chinese fans tended to have three circles on the hub, none of the japanese fans did.

the japanaflos (one of which is spinning over my HDs as i type) are labelled like so, and the chinaflos are similar

so we turned everything audible off to get ambient noise down as low as possible, then did some listening tests at 5V and 12V (both going straight to the 5/12 VDC rails, not using fan mates - have heard rumour that fan mates can cause extra fan noise because of PWM?). We were plugging pairs of fans in at the same time and holding one up to each ear - don't have a sound meter but i'd probably trust my ears more anyway.

results:
-neither myself nor my friend could consistently identify differences between the fans
-at 5V: ALL fans make what i think ed was calling motor chaff noise (sh sh sh sh sh sh sh) but it's only audible when the hub is a centimeter or two away from the ear
-at one stage there was a pairwise comparison where i felt one fan was slightly louder than the other it turned out to be the chinaflo which seemed quiter, but there was barely a thing in it at all (variance if not psychology and certainly not reason to start blaming country of manufacture)

Excellent data that we can use, here. A combined sample base and result count would come in useful.

I never blamed the country of manufacture. I cited that the consistency of Panaflo's China fab is not up the level of their fab in Japan. This is no strike against my home country. Why blame the output of a single fab in a certain location on the fact that it's in that location? That makes no sense whatsoever. Or do you simply read anything I write with the general sense that I'm completely lacking in sense to begin with?

wim wrote:so basically i don't have much to conclude, except that i don't think it's true that panaflos from china are really lesser quality than the panaflos from japan.

the group of chinaflos (6) was very consistent, i was imressed because they all performed well. there was very tight variance within the samples. none of those were my fans, but were really cheap and i would certainly recommend buying these. they're a lot better than every papst i have tried. i think with this thread you may have caused a lot of people to worry unnecessarily about the country of manufacture of panaflos.
as far as i'm concerned, there's not much in it and unless some better evidence comes along
-you're probably wasting retailers time by getting them to check the label before you buy
-you're ripping yourself off by paying $1 extra for guaranteed japan-made panaflos.
-this dubious claim should be removed from the recommended fan list ("no information is better than misinformation")

A perfectly fine conclusion; had my samples been consistently poor (make the chaff noise), I'd not rank any of them over the other, but certainly rank the AcoustiFans AF80L as superior, being consistently lacking in mechanical noise of any sort.

Too bad I've never tried any Papst fans. I have, however, tried quote a few AcoustiFans and find that they are quieter than the Panaflos. Oh, wait, I can't say that to you, right? I only have but my sample base to speak for. Go figure. Yet, come to think of it, why not? It is, after all, merely forum banter.

Retailers are free to do whatever they like if they believe that it pleases the consumer and will earn them more sales over their competitors. In a world where price differences on cheap items are not the way to win the customer, superior service is a better way to do it. Do a little something extra, which costs nothing more than labor, and charge some extra money for it; $1.00 extra certainly wouldn't kill me, as a consumer, if I felt the services rendered were worth the money. Not everybody's out to save that one buck (it's one dollar; I'll have one fewer can of Coke this week to make up for it, sheesh); another example is NewEgg, who isn't always cheapest, but if I can buy from them instead, I know that I get consistently quick order handling and shipment, and if anything should happen, I know they provide an excellent RMA program. Paying them the extra few dollars for this peace of mind is fine by me, personally.

Anyway, $1 more for a $7 fan is still a hell of a lot cheaper than buying an 80mm AcoustiFan or SilenX fan; ~1/3 the cost, before shipping.

I never placed that, "dubious claim," on the recommended list. That's up to Mike if he feels that belongs there or not. Mike has had experience with a fairly huge Panaflo sample base (well over a hundred), and he still chose to put that there.

Make what you will of it; it's all fine by me. If you think what I wrote here is hogwash, that's perfectly fine as well. I have no real serious equipment to test with, and thus made no serious effort for lab quality testing, other than being sure ambient noise level was extremely low during testing. Blind testing is fine when you do not trust the person testing on a subjective front. Clearly, I trust my ears and ability to be objective, while you probably do not (of course I don't know for this for certain unless you make an open statement on the matter). On the other hand, whether you and your friend tested blindly or not, I couldn't care less, because I still trust the results you provided, since I am quite confident you're here to do the same as myself, and that is, to help the community at large. I do not go around with a skeptist's point of view, because deep down, I believe that this community is here to share, and we are all here to help each other out, not go on some sort of strange anti-Chinaflo vendetta.

You reported your findings as they were, and so did I. This creates a wider sample base that we can all draw from; i.e., by my interpretation of the results you reported, all eight fans were effectively equally noisy and produced the chaffing, "sh sh sh sh sh," noise, which indicates six Chinaflos with the noise and two more Japanaflos with the noise. Correct me if I'm wrong there. In terms of 80mm L1As, that brings the tally up to this:

Three good Japanaflos (zero mechanical noise, including chaffing),
Three bad Japanaflos (chaffing noise),
Two good Chinaflos (again, zero chaffing) and
Eight bad Chinaflos (again, chaffing noise)

Those results do not include 80mm M1x or H1x, nor do they include any 92mm or 120mm Panaflos. The tally is purely for 80mm L1x. Anyone else feel like adding to the tally?

-Ed

MonsterMac · Post by **MonsterMac** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:53 am

(variance if not psychology and certainly not reason to start blaming country of manufacture)

We aren't blaming the country that manufactures the fans, we are just pointing out that Panaflo's made in Japan seem to be more consistent with how the perform acoustically than their counterpart made in China.

vortex222 · Post by **vortex222** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:27 am

i have also purchased many L1a over the last year. any and all fans from japan worked very well, with no clicking or moter noise at all. of the 6 or 8 fans i have received from china, i would say 1 or 2 had an audible clicking sound when i really tried to listen for it, however the customer has never complained of it.

i never felt that difference was that great. 90% of the computers i build use panaflo's at 7v. none ever had problems starting at 5v, and they are all extreamly quiet.

i take pride in the fact that my computers are far quieter then most dell computers, and are able to acheave decent temp's on the cpu, mainboard ect....

i have tried certain globe 80mm fans and others. and the panaflo's have been the best for the doller that i can find.

my cousin claims that his high flow Sunon's at 5v are very quiet.... but all i heard was what sounded like a SHHHHH pink noise. totaly godawfull. never tried the low flow papst, tho there higher flow fans are great quality, and arent bad at 5v. but still higher flow and higher noise then the panaflo. Vantec Stelth are a waste of money and plastic. had some good luck with a few lableless fans i found that were all identical. presumably antec fans, i would figure sleve berring. and very low clicking noise, not as bad as the 2 chinaflo's that clicked.

meh, does anyone now how i can undervolt and reduce the road noise outside my window?

Edward Ng · Post by **Edward Ng** » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:31 am

Double-pane windows may work, particularly if the walls are thick and the noise is primarily leaking in from the windows. Unfortunately, such an upgrade is not cheap.

On-topic: I'm not going to add those results to the tally, since we don't have any precise numbers. However, thanks for letting us know! It is fully understandable, also, that we are talking about extremely minor noise differences here, so the mass majority of people wouldn't mind either way. This is important to keep in mind as well; very good point!

-Ed