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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 1:54 pm 
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whispercat wrote:
Fan comparisons are few and far between on tech sites and youtube. Almost no one is doing them.
This review of the NF-A12x25, and the various Redux NF-P12s (in Italian) certainly makes some attempt to provide meaningful data. It seems to confirm the general impression so far that the NF-A12x25 at 2000 rpm is relatively quiet, quieter according to them that the NF-P12 Redux 1700 PWM at 1700 rpm. On the other hand they also claim both higher static pressure and airflow for the P12 1700. On airflow for example their numbers are 120.2 for the P12 at 1700 rpm and 102.1 for the NF-A12x25 at 2000 rpm. But like some of the other sites that have reviewed the NF-A12x25 there is a complete absence of thermal data so it is not clear whether these numbers have any practical effect. It might be worth noting incidentally that the Redux P12s feature the earlier SSO bearing rather than the later SSO2 which is reputed to be quieter. But as they did not test the original 'non-Redux' NF-P12 1300 PWM there is no way of verifying this, at least not in this review.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 1:32 pm 
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Good points, thanks. I notice the NF-A12x25 is available in ULN, PWM, and FLX like most other Noctua fans. For cooling, are any of these configurations better to have than the other?


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 3:33 pm 
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whispercat wrote:
Good points, thanks. I notice the NF-A12x25 is available in ULN, PWM, and FLX like most other Noctua fans. For cooling, are any of these configurations better to have than the other?
I would suggest to decide upon how are you going to control them, personally I chose pwm most of the time, but there are certain scenarios that I still buy 3pin

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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 11:07 pm 
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Is it best to have the cooler fan spin according to the CPU temps?

I like to have PWM for all the case fans, but I've usually just let the CPU fan do its thing.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 11:42 pm 
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whispercat wrote:
I notice the NF-A12x25 is available in ULN, PWM, and FLX like most other Noctua fans. For cooling, are any of these configurations better to have than the other?
The FLX is a 3-pin version of the PWM fan with the same top speed. The ULN 3-pin fan has a top speed of 1200 rpm. One of the features of most Noctua 3-pin fans is a relatively high starting voltage and consequently starting speed. Typically this is 6V. Although no one so far has published any comprehensive fan speed data on any of these fans I would expect the FLXs starting speed to be in the range of 800-900 rpm and the ULN something like 400-500 rpm. The PWM is rated at 450 to 2000. In practice the PWM could probably be got down to more like 350 to 400 rpm minimum idle speed. So about the same at the ULN but without the restricted top speed.
whispercat wrote:
Is it best to have the cooler fan spin according to the CPU temps?
I normally use the Manual option in the BIOS to set a custom fan temperature/speed curve. As I want the lowest idle speeds possible I keep the CPU fan speed down to the minimum PWM % duty cycle possible up to a CPU temperature of 50C. After that there is a fairly steep rise in fan speed as temperatures in that range should only occur under system stress such as gaming. A different setting might be required in higher ambient temperature conditions than those in the UK.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 9:35 am 
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What is the average RPM range for CPU cooler fans? Would anyone ever need 2000 RPM? What would be too low even for idle?


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 9:40 am 
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whispercat wrote:
What is the average RPM range for CPU cooler fans? Would anyone ever need 2000 RPM? What would be too low even for idle?
Depends on the CPU and if you overclock, for a quiet pc, i would never plan on 2k, ideally below 1k rpms would be ideal, but its not about what we want always, sometimes CPUs need a lot of cooling, so its a balance.

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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 2:05 pm 
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When buying Noctua fans, is there any difference in noise or airflow between buying a PWM fan and running it at the ULN or FLX rpm settings, and buying the actual ULN or FLX versions?


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:11 pm 
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whispercat wrote:
When buying Noctua fans, is there any difference in noise or airflow between buying a PWM fan and running it at the ULN or FLX rpm settings, and buying the actual ULN or FLX versions?
Not really, but sometimes in some fans, they have starting voltages where they need more voltage to start than to run, for example a very good 140mm 3pin fan is the Antec True Quiet 140, it starts around 400rpms (give or take 6V), but it can run at 200rpms (around 3.5V). I personally prefer PWM, but i buy according into how i will control them, noctua does good 3pin and 4pin fans.

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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 4:21 pm 
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Well i manage to reach home just to grab some clothing and hit the road again ='(, sadly i didnt play much with the fans, just manage to get a couple of runs. My first impression, seems a really good fan, i couldnt hear it at 1m on an open bench below 600rpms, and was very quiet till 1000rpms, the bearing is different but you can hear it when it goes above 1400rpms very easily, that said, i expected a louder fan noise at 2k rpms, and its not quiet by any means, but its probably the quietest high rpm fan i have tested, again take my comments with a grain of salt, i dont own a chamber nor i could play wiht it at night where is more quiet, and its just a two runs on fanXpert. In a month or two i might do a temperature comparation to the NF-P12 PWM redux 1300/1700 to see how the most expensive none rgb fan does against one of the favorites of SPCR veterans.

As a last coment both fans can be stopped, both runs on FanXPert3 it stopped in the testing process, then i tested manual rpms (option in fanxpert) and i was able to stop it, cant say fully what PWM %, i would need to test on my asrock/msi mobos but its below 10% for sure, my guess is around 7%, usually Fanxpert gives some % for margin of error, if anyone is interested i could try next month on my Z370s. I leave you the FanXpert3 runs on both fans.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Thanks for that.

The most impressive part of the NF-A12x25 to me is the ability to idle from 250 rpm. This puts it in the same league as the other Noctua PWM 120mm fans and makes it potentially a replacement for all of them.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:25 am 
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Thanks Abula.

I hope they make a 140mm version.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 11:53 am 
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whispercat wrote:
I hope they make a 140mm version.
No one knows for sure, and i dont see why not, just to scale it bigger, but the 140mm adapter makes me think its not coming anytime soon, specially how much it took Noctua to tweak the NF-A12x25, around 3 years from when we saw a prototype, probably took them more than 5 years to develop it (although i still think its a GT Clone), but with the 140mm adapters, seems like they want us using this fan to furfill both 120/140.

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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2018 4:39 pm 
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lodestar wrote:
The most impressive part of the NF-A12x25 to me is the ability to idle from 250 rpm. This puts it in the same league as the other Noctua PWM 120mm fans and makes it potentially a replacement for all of them.

+1

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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 9:24 am 
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I seem to remember reading somewhere that a Noctua rep stated that a 140mm version would require reworking the design more or less from scratch. So it seems unlikely that a 140mm version is imminent.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 11:50 am 
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This would explain why Noctua has released the NA-SFMA1 set of two 140mm adapters as an accessory to the NF-A12x25. To quote Noctua "... the NA-SFMA1 has been specifically designed to ensure an optimal fit of the NF-A12x25 fan on watercooling radiators. It is also compatible with the NF-F12, NF-S12A and NF-P12 redux models as well as some 120mm fans from other manufacturers, but due to the special adaption to the NF-A12x25’s frame shape, not all 120mm fans fit. The NA-SFMA1 can be used for other screw-mount applications such as installing the NF-A12x25 in 140mm case fan placements, but may not work with 140mm applications that feature different methods of mounting (e.g. CPU coolers with custom fan clips)."

Image


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:00 am 
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There is a review of the NA-SFMA1 by Xtreme Systems which found that replacing the 140mm fans on a NZXT Kraken X62 with NF-A12x25s resulted in both lower temperatures and lower noise levels.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 3:53 pm 
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Level1Techs Noctua NF A12x25 Fan Review

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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:32 am 
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There is a fairly comprehensive review here (in Japanese).

In short, these two graphs show the story. The first graph seems to bear out the conclusion that the NF-A12x25 is quieter at equivalent speeds than the NF-F12. But there seems to be no significant difference between the two at 800 rpm or less.

Image

The second graph where the NF-F12 and NF-A12x25 were used on a Noctua NH-U12S cooler on a Ryzen 2700X at 4Hgz shows no performance advantage for the NF-A12x25 at the same rpm. But at 1400 rpm the NF-A12x25 is claimed to produce the same volume as noise as the NF-F12 at 1100 rpm.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:20 am 
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lodestar wrote:
But there seems to be no significant difference between the two at 800 rpm or less.

The review states "The noise value when the power is off is 33 to 35 dB" which would seem to indicate that below 800rpm the testing setup is unable to distinguish sound levels versus background noise.

I'd be very interested in a low rpm comparison with a lower 'sound floor'.

However the results so far look good -- so good in fact that I'm surprised that Noctua didn't release an updated NH-U12S with the new fan at the same time as the fan as a separate item -- as the NF-A12x25 seems to make most sense as a CPU fan.

Incidentally, what would be the best small heatsink to mate it with? I was thinking TRUE Spirit 120M (or more likely the newer TRUE Spirit 120 Direct variant, for availability reasons), which was reviewed as being very good with the better (Nexus) reference fan, but whose stock fan was described as its "Achilles' heel" (the TS 120 Direct seems to have a different fan from the original, but I haven't seen any review of it sufficiently detailed as show whether it is an improvement).


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:48 pm 
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A potential issue with the A12x25 is the corner design. It is maybe best described as semi-closed which might cause issues with coolers that use clips that fix to the back of the fan. However since the True Spirit 120 Direct uses a front mounting I don't see any problems.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:31 pm 
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Hrafn wrote:
Incidentally, what would be the best small heatsink to mate it with? I was thinking TRUE Spirit 120M (or more likely the newer TRUE Spirit 120 Direct variant, for availability reasons), which was reviewed as being very good with the better (Nexus) reference fan, but whose stock fan was described as its "Achilles' heel" (the TS 120 Direct seems to have a different fan from the original, but I haven't seen any review of it sufficiently detailed as show whether it is an improvement).
The truespirit seems a fine choice, but there are a lot others, like NH-U12S, Scythe Kotetsu, Ninja 5, Mugen 5, even cooler like Coolermaster 212 that to me its not a bad cooler, but i do dislike its fan above 700rpms.

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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:01 pm 
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lodestar wrote:
A potential issue with the A12x25 is the corner design. It is maybe best described as semi-closed which might cause issues with coolers that use clips that fix to the back of the fan. However since the True Spirit 120 Direct uses a front mounting I don't see any problems.

Yes, that was one of the reasons against (both current variants of) the Macho 120.

Abula wrote:
The truespirit seems a fine choice, but there are a lot others, like NH-U12S, Scythe Kotetsu, Ninja 5, Mugen 5, even cooler like Coolermaster 212 that to me its not a bad cooler, but i do dislike its fan above 700rpms.

My main reason against considering the NH-U12S is the cost -- I could get a comparable HS + the A12x25 for about the same price as the NH-U12S alone. The Kotetsu is still very much under consideration, as would be the Ninja/Mugen if I end up going with a hotter CPU (e.g. a Ryzen 2___X). The results of the 212 were underwhelming when reviewed, even with the better reference fan. It's main advantages seem to be price (but it's not that much cheaper than the TS-120 or the Kotetsu) and wide availability.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 3:39 am 
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If I were looking for an alternative to the Noctua cooler number one on my list would be the Scythe Mugen 5. In part because the newer Scythes have an excellent mounting system, arguably as good as Thermalright. A lot depends on prices in your particular location. In the UK the Mugen 5 and Thermalright True Spirit 120 are fairly close in price, which is about 10 to 12% cheaper than the U12S. The Cooler Master 212 is around half the price, so it would be economic to replace the fan with an A12X25. But personally I don't like the mounting system on the 212. You could consider the Mugen 5 plus A12X25 and then redeploying the 120mm Kaze PWM that comes with it elsewhere. It could be perfectly OK as an exhaust fan (minimum rpm is around 350). The Mugen 5 fan clips are front mounting so no issues there.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:22 am 
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lodestar wrote:
If I were looking for an alternative to the Noctua cooler number one on my list would be the Scythe Mugen 5. In part because the newer Scythes have an excellent mounting system, arguably as good as Thermalright. A lot depends on prices in your particular location. In the UK the Mugen 5 and Thermalright True Spirit 120 are fairly close in price, which is about 10 to 12% cheaper than the U12S. The Cooler Master 212 is around half the price, so it would be economic to replace the fan with an A12X25. But personally I don't like the mounting system on the 212. You could consider the Mugen 5 plus A12X25 and then redeploying the 120mm Kaze PWM that comes with it elsewhere. It could be perfectly OK as an exhaust fan (minimum rpm is around 350). The Mugen 5 fan clips are front mounting so no issues there.

Neither True Spirit 120 nor Mugen 5 is available locally (NZ), cheapest imports I've found has the M5 24% more than the TS120. 212 is available locally, but for slightly more than the imported TS120, U12S locally is almost double that.

I see that the slightly lighter Kotetsu bet out the Mugen 4 on SPC tests. Does the Kotetsu have the newer mounting system? Or would I have to go for the more difficult to obtain (and therefore pricier) Kotetsu Mark II to get that?


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:44 am 
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The original Kotetsu did have an earlier version of the improved mounting in the latest Scythe coolers. If you swapped out the GlideStream sleeve bearing fan that comes with it I doubt if you would see any significant difference in performance between the original and the Mark II Kotetsu.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:06 am 
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An interesting read, Noctua NF-A12x25 Case Fan Review by Alex Moore

Other reviews,
sweclockers Noctua NF-A12x25
modding.fr [TEST] VENTILATEUR NOCTUA NF-A12X25
pc-gaming.it Noctua NF-A12x25 Review - Fan-made perfection

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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:11 am 
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This (German) video of Noctua at Computex 2018 shows a poster on the background which states:
Quote:
* 5th generation of the award-winning NH-U12 series
* 7 heatpipes and 37% more surface area compared to NH-U12S
* Two state-of-the-art NF-A12X25 120mm fans in push/pull dual configuration
* 140mm class performance in 120mm form factor
* 100% RAM compatibility on Intel LGA115X and AMD AM4 sockets
* Excellent case and PCIe compatibility
* SecuFirm2[TM] multi-=socket mounting system for Intel LGA20XX, LGA115X, and AMD AM4, AM3/2

My only question is how much will this wunderkind of a HSF cost? Two NF-A12X25s and a redesigned HS with two more heatpipes. I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out at close to double the price of the NH-U12S.


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:45 pm 
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To be frank I was much more interested in the all black Chromax coolers displayed on the front left. I see later in the video that they even have all black fittings. So Noctua plan to charge a premium price for the new NH-U12S with two NF-A12x25 fans in their traditional color scheme. And if instead you prefer black, well they will charge you a premium price for that as well...


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 Post subject: Re: New noctua 120mm PWM fan, NF-A12x25 the GT Clone
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:51 pm 
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English-language video coverage of the Noctua booth. Sounds like there will be a fair wait for the new NH-U12 (though U14-equivalent performance is pretty good and the predicted $100 pricetag isn't quite as bad as expected -- though given that the U14S+2nd fan is around $85, perhaps not that great). I think I'll continue looking at fitting a (single) A12x25 to a cheaper small tower.

lodestar wrote:
To be frank I was much more interested in the all black Chromax coolers displayed on the front left. I see later in the video that they even have all black fittings. So Noctua plan to charge a premium price for the new NH-U12S with two NF-A12x25 fans in their traditional color scheme. And if instead you prefer black, well they will charge you a premium price for that as well...

Computer component manufacturers charging premium prices for high-performance and/or bling-looking hardware is hardly a new business model. :D

Though when and if Noctua start jumping on the RGB bandwagon is when I'll stop taking them seriously.


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