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 Post subject: What fan and layout setup are you using on your heatercore?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 8:45 pm 
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Here's the rundown on what I've learned about the quiet 120mm axial fans on the market. Feel free to comment on the following if you believe any aspect of it to not be completely correct.

Unlike the Japanaflo 80mm, the Panaflo 120mm is not really considered in the quiet fan category among silence gurus. Rather unfortunate as this is a 38mm thick fan (better in restrictive environments than the more common 25mm thick fans).

Papst 4412 fans are very nice when undervolted on DC current. They are one of the best quiet 120mm fans for restrictive environments. They don't like PWM though. Purely noise wise, they fall in the quiet, but not the most quiet category. The Nexus and Globe options are quieter.

Note: Both the Papsts and the Panaflos seem to be degrading in quality overall. The Panaflos seem to be degrading more so then the Papsts though.

The Evercool / Titan 120mm aluminum 120mm fans are pretty good quiet fans for a low restrictive environment @ <5V DC (lower than most other fans can undervolt). They also, like the Papsts, don't like PWM very much.

The Nexus "Real Quiet Fans" are excellent fans in the 80mm, 92mm, and 120mm categories. They work flawlessly on PWM and undervolt on DC well considering their low 12V CFM. The only thing I don't like about the 120mm is its orange color (that might be a plus to others though), its rather low 12V CFM numbers, and price compared to the Globes. Not as good as the Papst 4412 in a restrictive environment. You can buy then at www.endpcnoise.com at a cool $20 per fan.

And then there's the Globe S1202512L-3M. Works flawlessly on PWM, undervolts on DC very well, and is one of the absolute quiets fans around when operated with either of these two wattage regulators. You can buy them at www.mnpctech.com for only $8 per fan. I doubt it works in restrictive environments as well as the 4412, but since it has a better CFM/noise ratio than the 4412 it might not matter at all. And with its ~65CFM at 12V, it is also a great choice for when you’re willing to give up some quietness for extra CFM (example, max overclock bragging rights).


Edit 11-11-04: See the The Top SPCR Quiet 120mm Axial Fans Compared + 120mmAC Fans. post in the fans and contol section.

Now while the Globe is nice and quite, I'm really concerned as to how it would do on a 120mm heatercore--a rather restrictive environment. My thought is that if you were going to use this fan in such an environment you would want to sandwich the heatercore to help with the pressure issue through the 2" thick heatercore.

Any thoughts? I know sandwiching or "stacking" aren’t usually considered the best layouts for a quiet setup, but I can think of any other way to increase the pressure other than cranking up the voltage/PWM percent and along with it the dBs.


DrCR


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Last edited by DrCR on Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:15 pm 
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I will be utilizing two Globe 120s, but I am using a pair of Black Ice Pro radiators, which are likely to be far less restrictive than the heatercore you are planning to implement. This is the main reason why I decided to switch from a single 120mm heatercore (D-Tek Pro-120) to two better flowing Black Ice Pro radiators; I can run fans that I know are smoother and quieter while worrying less about restrictiveness, not to mention the fact that the latest findings indicate that it's not the depth of the radiator, but the air flow bandwidth, that determines performance; for example, two fans in serial, one pushing through and one pulling through, on a single 120mm heatercore that's twice thickness, won't perform as well as two separate 120mm fans pulling through two separate single-depth heatercores, in the same loop.

I haven't gotten the new system up and running yet, because I'm still waiting for my replacement midplate from Stew Forster to show up before I can utilize my new CPU block, but once it comes in, I'll finally get to test the new, dual radiator system out, to see how well it compares to before. I'm switching from a single Pro-120 heatercore with Antec case fan at 12volts to a pair of Black Ice Pros with Globe 120s, 12Volts, thermally regulated.

In essence, what I'm suggesting, is that a less restrictive (i.e. smoother), but wider radiator will help to alleviate your concern with lower pressure axial fans, but I'm not going to say this with absolute, 100% confidence until I've tested it for myself.

This is assuming that in all situations, the fans are properly shrouded to said radiator or heater core.

-Ed

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:30 pm 
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Yeah, I agree with you 100% getting thinner heatercores (or rads) [Edit: but with more surface area] would be the better option. Let me know how you like your new setup when you get it all together! Should be a lot quieter for you too. Where are you going to put the additional rad? If I remember correctly the bottom front of your rig was pretty filled up with just the heatercore.


The setup I'm working on right now:

Pump: Iwaki MD-20Z
CPU Block: Cathar's "Storm" G4
Northbridge: Large Passive air
GPU: Silverprop
Mosfets: Home-made waterblock or just passive air
Tubing: Tygon R-3603 or Clearflex60, 1/2"ID or 7/16"ID
Heatecores: Not sure yet
Heatercore Fans: Globes, perhaps Papst 4412 or Nexus fans
Case Fans: Globe or Nexus fans

Quasi-external + reserator tentative setup:
Image

You can read more on it at procooling here and pcper here.


DrCR

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Last edited by DrCR on Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:39 pm 
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I must admit your creativity is pretty good; if I had the handiness to build my own box like that, I'd surely love to try. How do you feel about the acoustic performance of the Iwaki? I know they can move a ton of water, but haven't heard much in the way of acoustic comparison against Eheims or especially CSP-750s.

To see how I got the two BIP's mounted to my rig, check my latest post near the bottom of this page.

-Ed

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 3:22 am 
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With a rad bigger than the fan, it is vital to use a shroud to ensure airflow across as much of the surface of the core as possible.

I made a shroud using the details here

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:43 am 
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Which is why I said,
Edward Ng wrote:
This is assuming that in all situations, the fans are properly shrouded to said radiator or heater core.


Otherwise, you can't compare the setups to each other.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 2:45 am 
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BlackIcePro2 + 2x Nexus 120 fans. Shockingly effective in my setup and incredubly quiet. I'm running the fans at around 750rpm.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:05 am 
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Excellent...

This sounds somewhat similar to my arrangement!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:11 pm 
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HaloJones wrote:
With a rad bigger than the fan, it is vital to use a shroud to ensure airflow across as much of the surface of the core as possible.


If you look at the clickable thumbnail I posted you will notice the shrouds. ;) Nice shroud you made btw. I've seen that article before. Good work.

juansolo wrote:
BlackIcePro2 + 2x Nexus 120 fans. Shockingly effective in my setup and incredubly quiet. I'm running the fans at around 750rpm.


Not bad juansolo. A 2x120 is about right for a P3.4 rig. What are your temps? I correctly assume you're not overclocking, at least with that airflow? I'm trying to have a setup that's very quiet like yours, only such that I can overclock like crazy. Hence the in-case rad.

The advantage of the BIPs is that it's only 1" thick. The disadvantage being it's 4-pass design and, to a small extent, the price.

I had a talk with bobkoure over at PC. He mentioned the Mercury Montego heatercore dosen't require a fittings mod (link). So I'm looking at that. I may just go with larger than 5/8ID tubing in the 'external' box part though.

I'll use heatercores in the 'external' box since the setup is series to begin with. I would have four axials and two heatercores in series. I may go ahead and use a BIP or something thinner for the in-case rad though. If I do so, I'll probably make a shroud for the BIP anyway to avoid a deadspot under the motor hub.


Ed, your setup seems to be coming right along! Very nice indeed. :)

The Iwaki MD-20Z (or MD-30Z if on 50Hz current) has been the undisputedly best choice for very quiet extreme power. Now how it compares with the C-Systems pumps or Eheims 10xx I have never been able to find out. I doubt it is as quiet as the quietest Eheims (lets think about the power difference here, the Iwaki has up to a ~20ft head). I'm not too worried as I know it is definitely on the quiet end of the spectrum, and I'll have plenty of room to add foam. Even if it is louder than the heatercores+fans, the character of its noise is inherently more tolerable than an axial case fan for example. Why doesn't everyone use an Iwaki MD-20Z? The price for one thing, but the real deciding factor is its size. This pump is huge! Think the extreme opposite than the c-systems size wise.


DrCR

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 1:30 am 
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Nope, there is no overclocking going on in my setup at all. This way I can run the fans really slowly and the cooling performance remains excellent. Also at the moment there would be no advantage to O/Cing the machine. It's a pure games machine and pretty much anything I throw at it at the moment can run at the v-sync'd refresh rate of the LCD panel (1280x1024@75hz) with 16xAF and 4xAA.

I've updated the link below after my old graphics card went tits up pretty soon after the build and I took the opportunity to change a few things.

I'm also pretty sure the BIP2 is a 2-pass design rather than 4.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:11 am 
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That's the same thing I have heard: the Black Ice Pro is two-pass. It's the original Black Ice that was four-pass.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 6:59 pm 
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Just going by their site.

Black Ice 120mm Pro Radiator
Quote:
Black Ice Pro Radiator - Black

Product Reviews Product Instructions

Uses 1/4NPT 1/2" OD or 3/8 OD Fittings.

4-pass Radiator. Rated for 360KCal per hour (1428 BTU per hour) or 418W. 120 mm (4.72 inch) Copper core.

Built-in plenum chamber for increased performance and noise reduction. Self-tapping 120mm fan and case mounting holes for ease of installation. Compact 150.4 x 128.6 x 25 mm (5.9 x 5 x 0.98 inch) dimensions allows it to fit inside most mid-tower cases.


The "Xreme' is dual-pass double row. It's thicker than the Pro though. (link)


Edit: My bad, I was looking at the 1x120mm rads rather than the dualies. duh Image


DrCR

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2004 7:12 pm 
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Not according to Sidewinder,
Directron or
Hardware Labs, who makes the things.

Erhm; who's using the dual-120? I'm using dual single-120s.

-Ed

EDIT: MY bad on that link...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:23 am 
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Edward Ng wrote:
Erhm; who's using the dual-120? I'm using dual single-120s.


Yeah, I know you arn't. Isn't juansolo though?

DrCR

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2004 5:35 am 
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Woops; yeah, he is...

But I'm still running two 2-pass rads. :wink:

Btw I asked pHaestus about the K8 calibration problem--he has yet to try a K8, so he has no personal experience with them, unfortunately, but he thinks there's still too many variables to be exactly sure what's going on with the aithmetic calibration issue on my CPU and board combo.

Oh, and he's got his Storm G4 already and has begun testing; I can't wait to see his results, as he will be testing the block with 20% glycol in the mix, which is much closer to what I run (Cathar runs pure water!), and I want to see if Cathar's statement regarding viscocity (he says not to use more than 10% in the mix, as Storm isn't designed for such thick coolant) holds merit. Running L3 anodized aluminum pumps in an otherwise copper/brass cooling loop, I'd prefer to keep it around 15-20%, just as I have been running it since I first started using airspirit's red glycol mix...

Now, where's my new midplate?!? :?

-Ed

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:21 pm 
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I had a new thought recently and bobkoure's post in "The Top SPCR 120mm fans" thread (link) prompted me to go ahead and post about it here.

We've all know thinner heatercores/rads than the standard 2" thick heatercores are better for quiet computing as they are less restrictive air-flow wise, and therefore a quieter fan can be used (true, you'll need more grill/fin surface area to make up the sacrifice in cooling abilty)....

But we all also know it's almost impossible to find a <2" rad that meets your max dimensions, and that isn't harmful to your liquid flowrates. Another issue is cost, though I'm sure many would be willing to pay a pretty penny to have a 1" thick heatercore/rad that fits their max dimensions and flow rates are not compromised.

The aspect I recently though of:

Heatercore thickness really wouldn’t be an issue if the surface area of the fins/grill was significantly larger than the sized fan used, right? I mean, and to use an extreme example, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that a Black Ice Pro (1" thickness, ~120x120mm grill) is going to be less restrictive than a Bonny core with a single shrouded 120mm on it (2” thickness, huge grill area)!

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:15 am 
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Wouldn't it be fairer to compare that against a Black Ice Pro II?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:24 pm 
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Edward Ng wrote:
Wouldn't it be fairer to compare that against a Black Ice Pro II?


No, not really. I'm focusing on really just airflow restivity. I'm using that illustration in that thickness isn't really an issue if you have the grill surface area that is far larger than your fan surface area (or at least I'm thinking it isn't really an issue).

You see what I'm saying? If so, what do you think?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 8:29 pm 
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You're allowing a greater bandwidth and relying on a deeper shroud; yes, it's true, but what I'm saying is that a Black Ice Pro II, which is same 1" thinness and same design in terms of air resistance, as a Black Ice Pro, but with closer open face area compared to your stated heatercore, would flow even better still than any of the rest, given an equally, shall I say, "interesting," shroud.

Anyway I think all of this is pure guessing if neither of us do any serious testing to find out for sure.

Btw I fixed my air flow problem so that my two Black Ice Pros do not sent hot air the way of each other--without crazy ducting acrobatics. I'll probably shoot some pics given the opportunity.

-Ed

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 2:30 pm 
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Edward Ng wrote:
Btw I fixed my air flow problem so that my two Black Ice Pros do not sent hot air the way of each other--without crazy ducting acrobatics. I'll probably shoot some pics given the opportunity.


Oooh, yes, post some pics! :)

As for me, I'm probably going to have to rework my modular rad box shape and dimensions. I'm alread running out of room with my Iwaki MD-20Z, two 51mm thick heatercores, and two 120x38mm fans. I would like to be able to fit in four fans, or at least that was the number I was shooting for at the time. If I end up with the same setup with two fan approach, I'll be swapping the heatercores and the fans rather than what you see here so the fans are farther away from the openings and to have room enough for the tubing (like the way the layout is in the third post of this thread).

Image

DrCR

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:58 pm 
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That pic is quite similar to what I've done with my case; cool air comes into the case from what used to be the 92mm fan port on the side (now wide open, no fan) and goes gets pulled through the two rads by fans ducted and installed on the outsides of them; the difference is that my front rad is installed where the intake fan used to go, in the order of radiator->shroud->fan->front intake->out the front (in order of air flow), except instead of intake, the opening has become and exhaust. The rear assembly is dropped down a couple inches from where the original case exhaust was, except the assembly mounts behind my case, so it goes, in order of air flow, case exhaust opening->radiator->shroud->fan->out the back.

Yeah, pics would probably be a good idea. I'll try to get them up this evening.

-Ed

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:06 am 
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thought i'd give my two cents :)

to answer the topic question: i'm using 2 papst 4412fgl fans at about 5-6v, pulling air through a heatercore.

my advice would be, regardless of the fan you choose, you do not have to be afraid of a thick heatercore. currently i'm using a holden vk commodore heatercore which is almost 2 inches thick and has an incredibly dense fin arrangement.. you can't even see through the thing at most angles! but yeh, i'm using 2 low speed fans, undervolted, and they pull air through it absolutely fine, no worries at all.

DrCR: i haven't been following the development of your project but i have to say it looks nice (or at least the pictures look nice :) ) have you thought about putting the radiators on one side of the box and have the fans on the other side? (or just have a full size 2x120mm heatercore instead of 2 120mm?) If you do that you could suspend the iwaki in the middle between the fans and the radiator - if you have the fans on pull mode you won't hurt airflow very much.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:25 pm 
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chylld wrote:
DrCR: i haven't been following the development of your project but i have to say it looks nice (or at least the pictures look nice :) )


lol. I'm getting really sick of pictures. September (was my current primary comper's 4 year old birthday :? ) was the planned purchasing time, but the budget forced it to this late spring/early summer. I guess I should be happy though. Otherwise my setup would have looked like this lol. :lol: It is remarkable how much I have learned just since summer. Thanks for helping me out on that thread a while back.

chylld wrote:
have you thought about putting the radiators on one side of the box and have the fans on the other side? (or just have a full size 2x120mm heatercore instead of 2 120mm?) If you do that you could suspend the iwaki in the middle between the fans and the radiator - if you have the fans on pull mode you won't hurt airflow very much.


Yeah, I though of that, but my dimensions are limited and the airflow must be head-to-tail. This is meant to be a modular rad box for a mid tower and replaces my current full tower (and that old layout concept). Like the pic in post #3 of this thread, I plan on having a rad in the computer too, perhaps two, so despite that I'm not using the ideal dual 2x120mm heatercores, this should be more than sufficient even with quiet fans. I’m still trying to get my hands on an uninsulated water heater.

DrCR

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 8:04 pm 
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DrCR wrote:
bobkoure wrote:
I'm using the heater core for a mercury montego.

Oh yeah. I knew I knew you from computer forums but I forgot you were the one I PMed at procooling about the mercury montego a while back. So re-thanks to you again lol. What are the maximum, edge-to-edge height and width dimensions of this 2" depth heatercore? (Not rush, don't whip out a ruler on my account if your too busy at the present). I was already considering using this for inside the case due to mainly to its nice OD bard size, but now I'm thinking I may use it for my rad box too. [/quasi off-topic]


bobkoure wrote:
How big is your rad box? What surfaces can you mount a heater core in? IMHO there are lots of better choices than this particular heater core if you're not constrained by trying to put it into the lower front of a PC case. For instance, you could put a fedco 2-734 (10.25x7x.98) into the side, top, or bottom of a radbox and use the entire box as a shroud - so just pull air from the box. This also gives you the opportunity to mount the fan(s) so they point away from you - preferably towards a surface you've put sound-absorbtive material on (even a towel hung a bit away from the wall...).
How about if we move this part of the discussion to either the watercooling area here or to procooling?



You can see pics of my setup in the above posts bobkoure. In a nutshell, I want to turn my space for a full tower to a mid tower with a modular external rad and pump box. See post 3.

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Macase KA-180 (Full Tower)
From Website:
190 x 455x 620 mm(WxDxH)
7.48031”x17.9134”x 24.4094”

Actual Measurements with Base:
242.8875 x 495.3 x 649.288 mm(WxDxH)
9.5625”x19.5”x25.5625”

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New Setup
Max HeightT: 25.5625” ≈ 649.288mm
Preferred Max HeightT: 25” = 635mm
Approx. Case MaxH: 17.7165” ≈ 450mm

Current Width (~9.5”)
Ply ½ in.: 11mm
Concluding Support Box:
Exterior: 242.8 x 495.3 x 185 (WxDxH)
Interior: 222.8 mm x 163 mm (WxH)
≈ 8.77” x 6.417” (WxH)

Ply 3/8 in.:
Concluding Support Box:
Exterior: 242.8 x 495.3 x 185 (WxDxH)
Interior:

10” Width (Concept)
Ply ½ in.: 11mm
Exterior: 254 x 495.3 x 185 (WxDxH)
Interior:

Ply 3/8 in.:
Exterior: 254 x 495.3 x 185 (WxDxH)
Interior:
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I perfer to stick with the 9.5" width dimensions, but I'm willing to go to 10" to made an almost fit a fit. I do plan on using 3/8" ply (even thinner with support braces where room is available). 1/2" is overkill, even for a very heavy case.

FYI I plan on useing a Silverstone TJ04 for the mid tower.

DrCR

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:33 pm 
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I promised pics; here they are.

-Ed

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:57 pm 
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Looking nice Ed! Much better than your first setups! :D


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:42 pm 
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Thanks!

Yeah, I've finally actually gotten quite satisfied with it, and probably won't mess with it much from here on out (I said the same for Sigma One a while ago, and it hasn't had a change since! :lol:)...

Hopefully...

-Ed

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 17, 2005 4:12 pm 
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I've gotten a tentative green light from budget for February so I pickedup design work today. I'm sticking with the modular, external, radbox concept but am reworking the internal layout. I’m hoping to fit in two fedco 2-734 heatercores. :D

chylld wrote:
DrCR: i haven't been following the development of your project but i have to say it looks nice (or at least the pictures look nice :) ) have you thought about putting the radiators on one side of the box and have the fans on the other side? (or just have a full size 2x120mm heatercore instead of 2 120mm?) If you do that you could suspend the iwaki in the middle between the fans and the radiator - if you have the fans on pull mode you won't hurt airflow very much.

bobkoure wrote:
How big is your rad box? What surfaces can you mount a heater core in? IMHO there are lots of better choices than this particular heater core if you're not constrained by trying to put it into the lower front of a PC case. For instance, you could put a fedco 2-734 (10.25x7x.98 ) into the side, top, or bottom of a radbox and use the entire box as a shroud - so just pull air from the box.


In re-glancing over this thread I noticed your two comments. I'm limited as to what I can do with regards to the sides because the box will be sandwiched between a desk and a wall, but the design I came up with earlier today is somewhat like what you two described. I'll post some pics once I get closer to finalizing the concept and go from paper to computer.

Edit: Something like this (birds eye view):
Image
with the airflow going from left to right. I have room for the intake on the left side, but I'll have to make sure there's enough of a gap for the extake. Since the shrouds with taper down to the fans, I could if needed put an extake fan in the rear of the box (top of the pic) and pull air in from the front too somewhat cool the Iwaki. Unlike the red and blue coloring, the hot water will enter the right, "down wind" heatercore first. That way the somewhat cooled water will be getting fresh/ambient air.

I'm post when I get a CAD image together. Got to go tune my snowboard now though. :)

DrCR

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:19 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 538
I was using the Bonnville heater core as my reference with the above pictured "Rev2." This "Rev3" is based on the fedco 2-734, which is slightly wider than the Bonny, but more important, is much thinner at .98" rather than 2".

What's nice about this Rev3 is that it is relatively compact. I could potentially put two in series for twice the cooling power (one sans pump).

The Dimension for with revision is 24.28cm wide x 28.535cm long. The dimension for the above pictured revision is 24.28cm x 27.6 + the length of the pump = 24.28 x ~ 46cm.

Image

The air is sucked through the side mounted heatercores and blown out the back.

Two Nexus 120s for two large heatercores isn't a lot of airflow, but I'm thinking with that surface area I won't need a lot of airflow. I'll probably use Yate Loons anyway if I can get my hands on them since they are much cheaper than Nexuses and that would give my much more airflow and pressure at 12v should I need it (i.e. when overclocking and gaming).

It would actually be more convenient to use one of the AC fans ferdb has mentioned so I can just use the same line going to the Iwaki. I just may go that route, though I would have a harder time speed-controlling them should I desire variable CFM/dBA.

I may put 120mm radiators in the rear, sandwiched with 120mm fans on both sides, in which case I wouldn't be too concerned about pressure/airflow.

Rev.3b
Image

The reason for two 120mm radiators in the rear rather than one 2x120mm radiator is the width issue, while I have some room vertically.

I estimate the additional length for the Rev.3b layout over Rev.3 to be: 2"(2) for the shrouds + 25mm for the fans = 75.8mm and a total length of 36.115 cm, which is still shorter than the 47.2cm length/depth of the Silverstone TJ04 I'm planning on using. So I'm all set, with room to spare length/depth wise.

DrCR

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 18, 2005 1:12 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 4:45 pm
Posts: 1413
Location: Sydney, Australia
4 radiators? are you trying to cool a prescott or something? :) even then, 1 radiator is sufficient. don't forget that each radiator adds more restriction to the loop, and you have to weigh this restriction against possible performance gains by having a higher flow rate through the waterblocks. i think your rev 3a design is more than adequate :)

i'm looking forward to seeing it come together for real; what materials are you planning on using? how are you going to join the box together? not important points these, just something i'm interested in since i've done this type of thing before :)


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