how much would you pay for non conductive, non corrosive, basically fluid designed for watercooling?

personally or for real. for real it will cost you about $200 a gallon. this is what i would recommend but why not use water

http://www.dtekcustoms.com/index.asp?Pa ... ProdID=139

yeah thats what i saw and i thought it was a typo, but i guess not.. do they know that people not many people will drop that much money on just fluids?

...they do, or the product wouldn't exist. lots of people waste money on kits too.

Why do you care if your fluid is non-conductive? (Conductivity is not the problem with using just plain water in a WC loop)

well if it is non conductive, if you have a leak, it will do nothing to the system. you could dump this stuff all over your computer compoents and it will still run.

Yes, your machine will continue to run until you've overheated and toasted the CPU.

There are a variety of non-conducting fluids already available, but they're all either way to expensive (like Fluorinert), or have horrible thermal properties (like Mineral Oil)

I'm very sceptical about that "Fluid XP" stuff, especially since finding some details (on the manufacturer's site, I think it was) and learning that it's mostly water.

Also see here:
http://www.overclockers.com/articles1028/
If the list of ingredients there is complete, then you shouldn't expect the stuff to inhibit corrosion.

i think i will trust my engineering ability and use water. wonder how much it will cost to use fluid xp on reserator....

Yeah, fluidXP is basically pre-mixed (and overpriced) distilled water with an anti-corrosive.

With an "anticorrosive"? Not according to the link I gave above:
http://www.overclockers.com/articles1028/
To be honest I'm a little puzzled: so far as I can see the main effect of those additives would be to make the stuff a little gloopier (more viscous). Perhaps it's just a marketing things: one reviewer guessed it was some sort of light oil, based on the "non conductive" sales pitch and the way it poured and felt on his fingers.

quote]

It's designed to make it less able to support metal ions in solution (galvionic corrosion). C'mon, a site that lists water as dihydrogen oxide is gotta be a n00b fisher. The alcohol (layryl means it is clear) and glycol is antifreeze and the glycerin lubricates the pump (not sure how good that is in the long run). Xantham gum is a stabiliser for the rest of the ingredients. It basically stops them separating out onto your pipes, blocks and pump when the system is powered down.

What you'll find is that after a month or two it will have to be changed as it breaks down (common prob with antifreeze). Waterwetter or equivalent + distilled water is still by far the best method.

If the alcohols were there as a major proportion of the mixture, that effect might start to become significant. However, if metal salts are less soluble in the solution than in water, that just means the corrosion products will end up as solid rather than in solution sooner... except that the xanthan gum stabilises colloidal suspensions. I don't see it having a big effect one way or the other, but I'm not sure what they were thinking.The question of whether the corrosion is accelerated by mixed-metal "galvanic" effects is irrelevant here. ("Galvanic" not "Galvionic".)As I read it, the manufacturers used that term in the data sheet they supplied to the people running the overclockers.com site. Presumably they were hoping to impress someone: we agree there.First, the word. The etymology of "lauryl" (not "layryl") is from laurel; my guess is that lauryl alcohol or lauric acid was originally extracted from that plant. Why do you say it means it's clear? Anyway, nowadays "lauryl" just refers to a chain of twelve carbon atoms.
1-Dodecanol is an oily liquid, with a melting point of 24-27C, and it's insoluble in (immiscible with) with water. (Presumably the gum and/or glycerin helps to stop it from separating out and floating to the top.) Being insoluble, it won't affect the melting/freezing point.
The propylene glycol will lower the freezing point: its own melting point is -59C and it is miscible with water.
The lowering of the freezing point will be small given the small concentration of additives. Anyway, does it matter at all? How many people want to chill their water below its normal freezing point?The mixture might be a little more effective as a lubricant than plain water (but remember that increased viscosity does not mean a better lubricant). I'd imagine that if there were any benefit the makers would be shouting about it though.
Oh, and (I'd have to check but) I'd expect it to lower the freezing point unless there's an awful lot of it: it's miscible with water and its melting point is 17.8C. Also it helps to stop the 1-dodecanol from separating out.That's only needed for the lauryl alcohol. It also increases the viscosity, has some lubricating ability and stabilises suspensions.It wouldn't surprise me, but what makes you think it does? (The makers quote a shelf life of five years but say nothing about life in use.)Really? It lasts for years in cars. What makes you think so?I'm not sure that water wetter helps. Certainly some kinds are reported as causing problems. I don't think I've seen any tests showing improved performance.

For inhibiting corrosion, I would recommend "life extender" additives for car engine coolant, or additives intended for domestic central heating systems (the kind with hot water circulating through radiators).

Note that the makers/sellers of this XP stuff say that the liquid itself is not corrosive but they don't say it inhibits or protects against corrosion. Also they don't mention growths of algae, bacteria or fungi, but they do say the additives are all food-grade so presumably living things will do just fine in it. (No, they're not used as preservatives in food.)

Jesus! You produce this stuff or are you just a freelance chemist browsing the forums? Basically, the point of the post was to say that it really isn't a wonder product and a similar, or better efffect can be made much cheaper by adding a concentrate to distilled water. (took me 5 mins to write my post, how long to write yours... ) And it's a bit picky corecting a spelling mistake....

p.s. achieved an E grade in A-level chemistry and proud of it....it's rubbeshhh (watch little britain if you're confused )

I got growths in my very first water system, which was filled with 100% Fluid XP. I don't know if that was the fault of the coolant or my fault (most likely mine), but I got growth within the first week, and it didn't seem to me that the Fluid XP was doing anything at all to prohibit it. The growth was a feathery, white looking streamy material that clung to my tube walls. Multiple hydrogen peroxide flushes of the system turned the feathery white streamy gunk into gross-as-all-hell orange particulates. My cousin, who was helping me with the flushing process, was about to puke from seeing it.

It didn't smell too great, either.

-Ed

direct contact like in Spray Cooling
basically a direct die phase change
(or within a block but then it wouldnt need to be non-conductive)
that fluid however wouldnt be a good choice with a boiling point of 99C
so just imersion for that fluid

the Heat Transfer Coefficient (W/cm² °C) of Spray cooling is far superior to other methods


http://www.spraycool.com/flash/WP_Datas ... entals.pdf

You don't need non-conducting fluid for direct die cooling. Plain old Di+antifreeze will work just fine.

Besides, what percentage of WC'ers are doing that? I bet you could gather all the PC direct die cooling users in the world into one room. And it wouldn't be a big room.

oh I dont know
think the application is slight larger than you might imagine
starting with the US Army :p


spray cooling is used for thermal control on alot of "ruggedized" equipment, and is making inroad to high density enterprise computing, of course in the high density application direct die isnt necessary or even perferable

but "spray cooling" itself is one of those thermal technologies that is just going to become more prevelant, sort of like heatpipe technology is now, about four years ago there where no consumer level products employing heatpipes (but they where readilly available to enterprise)
now they are everywhere

its actually a super simple technology with just a micropump to go wrong
but like most phase change its all about getting the appropriate balance
putting it outside of the DIY category currently
its been around for a long time as well, but outside of supercomputers wasnt adopted for quite awhile

while a nonconductive fluid isnt necessary for direct die, it is perferable
(ask SurlyJoe at Spodes) and for typical enterprise immersion or direct component cooling is universally employed, generally Perfluorocarbon (3M's Fluorinert)

OC enthusiasts are always "rediscovering" applications\issues that thermal enginneers are familiar with, from Bong (Evaporative) Cooling, Heatpipes, Immersion, TEC, jet impingement, pump heat, indirect phase change, and cascade phase change to direct die

IIRC, spray cooling was used (dunno if it still is) in a number of supercomputers (I know for a fact that Cray used it). I believe they used Fluorinert for it; I have no idea how much it costs, though.

Its ungodly expensive :p

imagine just the cost of canned pumps and welded stainless stell tubing
not to mention the Fluorinert itself

seals need to be at 4 atmospheres of water pressure IIRC

Ouch, point. Ah well, worth a try...

Hmmm... Oy, anybody have access to cheap liquid nitrogen (purity probably doesn't matter too much)? I'm wondering if it would be possible to run a computer fully immersed in the stuff.

direct LN2 immersion wouldnt work too well
(too much of a good thing :p )
but that doesnt mean you need to actually pump the Fluorinert
like in a supercomputer

check both mission submersible articles by Ramil Tranquilino
http://www.octools.com/index.cgi?caller=supercool.html
(they are quite old now)

an old forumM8 of mine has the best longterm solution Ive seen
a -111 degree Cascade Phase Change

actually there are a few lower than that
ugly as hell but Lardarse was never one to let esthetics stand in the way of function :p

Maybe I should have phrased it more carefully, "how many home PC users are doing direct die cooling?"

I don't see it really taking off for end users either, for many of the same reasons that watercooling will never be mainstream.

And don't even get me started on submersive cooling....it's a bit of a sore spot with me....we have a bit of a track record.

Hmmm... What would happen if beer were used in a liquid cooling system? That'd be a fun article to read...

The fundemental question remains...

How silently can these alternate extreme cooling methods be done?

-Ed

I suppose you could use a Resterator for the non-direct liquid cooling, so fairly quiet...

What'd different about this from conventional liquid cooling (which I did not mean to include under alternate extreme cooling methods, thus the word, "alternate")?

-Ed

very quite
one small micropump being the only pump and its a canned magnetic drive
(correction its 10 atmospheres) a cut and paste
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just an update on SprayCool:



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