Hello,

I have only just registered with the forum but have been reading site articles and forum posts over the last few weeks. What an excellent site! I wish I had found it sooner. Thanks and congratulations to all concerned.

As I'm a newbie, I hope you'll forgive a bit of background. If you're in a hurry, please skip to "The Point", below.

====> Rambling background <====

I have so far succeeded in turning a typically loud PC into one that is quieter than most, but still not quiet. Successful noise-reducing steps so far:

1) Replaced a generic 500W dual-fan PSU with an FSP350-THN-P (ATX 2.0, passive PFC, ball bearing fan).
2) Discovered and enabled CPU power saving (s2k disconnect) option in BIOS, thus reducing CPU & case temp, enabling me to remove my case fan. (May need a low-speed fan come summer!)
3) Replaced Arctic Cooling Copper SIlent 2 (non-TC) with Thermalright SK-7 with generic Ebuyer 80mm fan at 5V. This is inaudible against the PSU fan.
4) Unscrewed HDD and rested it on foam / egg box / bubble wrap on floor of case. I'll try something tidier like elastic suspension.

Like every other SPCR member, I imagine, after each step I was initially pleased but then became preoccupied with the next-loudest noise source.

The PSU is now the main culprit (at least, when the HDD settles into a non-resonating position). I expect that I would also get a worthwhile improvement by replacing my cheap and nasty, flimsy tin-foil stupid case (and... breathe...) with something more solid, maybe an Evercase 4252, but I'm guessing it's best to tackle the noise-producers first.

====> The Point <====

These are the options I'm considering:

A) Modify the FSP350.

I thought I might try a resistor in series with the fan first (I promise to read and follow the safety advice!) as a low-cost option. I'd feel more comfortable with this than having the fan at a fixed voltage, so that the PSU can ramp up the fan if it gets too hot.

Or a fan swap. After reading a few threads here and the recommened fans page, I thought perhaps a Papst 4412 GL or GLL, or a Nexus. I'm a bit concerned that the Nexus or GLL would substantially reduce the airflow, but the FSP350-THN is supposedly pretty efficient and my system is fairly low-power, so maybe I'd get away with it. (Well, the Nexus/FSP PSUs get away with it, but do Nexus modify the fan controller, fit better heatsinks etc?)

B) Sell the FSP and get a Seasonic S12.

Mike's review is pretty convincing. There's an offer on today on the S12-380 - if I could get a decent price for the FSP on eBay, the net cost of the upgrade would be around 15 GBP, which is about what a fan swap would cost me.

So I'm looking for advice on whether an unmodified Seasonic is a better, quieter PSU than a fan-modded FSP350-THN. And if not, I'd welcome the benefit of people's experience on the best way to mod the FSP.

Thanks for your time, apologies for the long post!

Dave

Hi Dave and WELCOME TO SPCR!!



They don't fit bigger heatsinks, but I cannot say 99% sure for the fan controller. It has to be ordered from Fortron if they want a different fan controller, atleast I really doubt Nexus would do this kind of an operation themselves.



The S12 does have better efficiency than your Fortron and it also has a better fan controller. As a starting point the S12 is better than the Fortron. (noise wise, considering build quality I would say Fortron. But this is a matter of taste / butt-feeling ) If you're irritated down the road by the PSU noise you can then start to consider about PSU modding.



Depending on your system's power levels, at low power levels a fan swapped Fortron might even be better than the Nexus. But I would say you don't really have stress the Fortron a lot to make the fan speed up.

So I say S12. Should work OK and it gives you a better starting point for PSU modding in the future.

No need to apologize, background and detailed description are always more than welcome.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for your welcome and for your helpful reply!



I wrongly assumed, in my original post, that the big orange fan in Nexus PSUs is a Nexus fan. On checking the review here I found that it's a Yate Loon D12SM-12, which appears to be specified as 1650 RPM @ 12V, 70.5 CFM, 33dB, whereas the Nexus is 1000 RPM @ 12V, 36.87CFM, 22.8 dBA. So I was wrong to use the Nexus PSUs as an argument for the advisability of putting a Nexus or other low-speed fan in the FSP.



Not by much though, if the figures in the following review can be compared with those from the SPCR review of the S12:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/other/display/fsp-psu_9.html
It seems that the ATX v2 FSPs are a good bit more efficient than the older models.



Yes I get that impression, though this is another area where the ATX v2 FSPs seem to have improved according to the Xbit review - see the fan speed vs output load graph there. This shows the speed staying at minimum to about 150W load, though I imagine that will depend heavily on the test rig and ambient temperature. My system (details in sig) shouldn't draw anywhere near that.

I don't notice the PSU fan ramping up in speed; it's always about the same level, the problem is that that level is a bit louder than I'd like. To give you an idea, when the house is quiet I can walk the 2 metres from my PC to the door, then 2 metres down the hallway (all carpeted) and still just hear the PC (with the door open).

I haven't yet opened up the FSP to see what fan it has; it's ball bearing, but I believe FSP use both Yate Loon and Protechnic.



I found a thread on fan-swapping the S12, AFAIR the conclusion was that the S12 had been wrongly identified as the noise culprit and that the swap would only ever be worthwhile if connecting the fan to an external controller.



Did you mean Nexus or Seasonic?

I'm at low power levels; as I said, the problem is the base noise level rather than ramping up under load. The fan just seems to run faster, or at least more noisily, than I was hoping, right from a cold start. Of course I may hit the speeding up problem too in warmer weather. I can cope with the machine getting a little bit noisier when doing some serious compiling or encoding (when I can disappear for a cup of tea ), so long as it returns to quietness when it's done.



Thanks for your detailed and reasoned response! I'm still mulling it over, as the strongest arguments in favour of the S12 (staying quiet to higher power) aren't particularly applicable to my situation (lowish-power PC, tolerance for a little more noise under load).

I suppose though that in order to get significantly lower noise from the FSP, I will need to reduce airflow, either via a resistor or a lower-speed fan. (Any opinions on whether there's much scope for lower noise with similar CFM by fitting a better fan? Difficult to say, I suppose, as we don't know what fan I have!) In which case the PSU is getting less cooling than it was designed for, which worries me a little. Whereas the S12 is designed to operate with its (I assume) lower airflow, so I'd expect better reliability and longer service life. Other things being equal, which they never are.

I seem to be talking myself towards the S12, even in my low-power scenario. I'm still very much open to having the benefits of others experience and expertise, however.

Dave

You could probably reduce the noise of the PSU and lower it's temperature by removing the wire grill.

Hi Dave,

I didn't check for any reviews of the Fortron. I just looked the model up on their website and it said "better than 70% efficiency". Sorry, my mistake.

So apparently that model has good efficiency. In light of that, I would just do a fan swap on the Fortron. Personally I would go for a Papst, since they do have a longer lifetime in a hot environment when compared to a normal sleeve bearing. However, you can also go for a Nexus (or Yate Loon, basicly the same fan but you can get 2-4 Loonies for a price of a Nexus).

If you're willing to order from abroad, check out Silencio's shop for different fans and an SPCR discount.

Even if you want to go for a S12 in the future, the Fortron with a Papst should get your a decent price. I actually swapped a Papst 4412F/2GL in a Antec Neopower 480 yesterday and placed it in my HTPC. Have to say I'm more than happy with the sound level.

EDIT: and yes, removing the grill isn't a bad thing.

A,

Didn't you originally put a globe in your neo 480? Why did you replace it with a papst? Still using the t-balancer as a psu fan controller? - FG

xxx

Hi Frank,

yes I did initially put a Globe in there (from the PSU modding tutorial), but it started to make quite a racket only a few weeks after the fan swap. I'm guessing the fan had sit on storage shelf somewhere and had "dried up" before I even took it into use. Actually that fan is now running at 5V vertically and it still makes some extra noise, but not as bad as it was when placed horizontally in that PSU.

The reason why I went for the Papst, is simple. The PSU is the only exhaust fan in my HTPC, so it is exposed to high temperatures, I simply wanted a fan that has a longer lifetime in hot environment. That Papst was actually quite OK at low voltages, smooth sound and very little chipset noise. And I know it's fresh, It came to me straight from the manufacturer I still have some _fresh_ Loonies and Globes at home that I could have used, but the Papst fit this scenario perfectly.

The PSU stays below 700RPM in my HTPC when Folding 100%, so couldn't be happier with it. I never use the word "silent", but I'm really close to that now The other fans in my HTPC are 2x Panaflo 80M1A at ~5.5V.

And about T-Balancer, no, I'm not using it at all anymore. Strangely enough, I had problems some time back with the sensors dropping out and a friend actually had a case where his server stayed on for day after the T-Balancer some crashed and stopped all of his fans, including the PSU Don't know what it caused these events, most people have been trouble free with their T-Balancers. (probably because of the lack of electricity here in Finland, I guess the batteries just ran out on that thing...) But for now I'm using the PSU's own fan controller and fanmates + Speedfan for CPU and case fan(s).

Actually the PSU mod would have been a good one for the PSU modding sticky, unfortunately I don't have camera right now. I replaced the two pin connector on the PSU PCB with a three pin male connector etc etc, which would have been nice to document for people modding their PSUs.

Um... sorry for the thread hijacking!

D'oh! I've only just read your post because my forum email notifications, which were working fine to begin with, stopped. I assumed there were no more replies and didn't check, as I was busy. Ah, maybe it only re-notifies me after I've posted a further comment and someone replies to that. Different from other forums I've used.

The special offer that I mentioned on the S12-380 ran out at noon today and I decided to go ahead and order one. After selling the Fortron (and the free gift I get with the S12) the upgrade should cost me 15 - 20 GBP, which is about what a Papst or Nexus fan would cost delivered. Yate Loons don't seem to be available at all in the UK and having one delivered from overseas would cost as much as a Nexus.

Anyway, provided that the S12 is no worse than a modded Fortron, I've done OK. And I get to keep the warranty. And to feel good about drawing less VA from the grid, thanks to the active PFC.



Thanks for the link, I found this one too: MA Solutions They don't seem to be well set up for international payment however, wanted an international bank transfer in advance, which would cost me as much as the fan in fees.



I hope a vanilla Fortron will too, though I've seen some go very cheaply on ebay.co.uk. After I bought mine. They don't seem to be a widely known brand here. I'll have to compose a compelling listing, in which I'll be introducing my prospective buyers to the wisdom of SPCR. Starting with the "no, you don't really need 600W" article.



I found some of your previous posts, it seems that you have some experience of Fortron modding too! I really don't need to know the answer to this now, but which Papst did/would you go for in an FSP350, the L or LL? Was there a big drop in noise level?



Not at all! Thanks once again for your help and advice.

Dave

Hi Dave,

yep the forum replies are sometimes a bit funny. It should notify you if someone has posted after the last time you checked the thread. But it doesn't as it's supposed to.

For less than 15GBP you could get (without an SPCR discount) two Yate Loon D12SL-12s (2x ~8€ and 5,50€ shipping) from Silencio. I'm guessing with the discount you might have gotten even three Loonies with shipping for 20GBP or a bit more. Atleast from a finnish perspective, Silencio's shipping is cheap. Shipping to Finland is in the same price range as shipping within Finland!

About the Fortron, they are mostly sold as "Sparkle" in the UK, so you may want to use "Fortron/Sparkle".

I used a Papst 4412F/2GL also in the Fortron, I however sold it to a friend later. Actually in retroperspective I can't understand why sold it... The fan I swapped was in the same speed range as the original, but the noise was much smoother.

Thanks for the info. There weren't any 120mm Yate Loons there when I looked, and I misread the shipping costs on the 80mm, I just saw the expensive "Europa" option. Useful source to bear in mind when I next need a fan.



I must say I haven't found any for sale in the UK under the Sparkle name, the relatively small number of shops I've seen selling them use the "FSP" brand. I assume that's a recent corporate rebranding.



Well, my Seasonic S12-380 arrived this morning and I'm very happy with it. It's the revised version with the ball-bearing 0.24A Adda fan and the Al capacitor. Not just smoother but substantially quieter than the FSP. Seated at my desk, the loudest component of my system is now my 17" CRT monitor. If I put my head under the desk I can hear a bit of what I suppose you'd call bearing chatter, or clicking/ticking; a very faint hum and a whisper of airflow noise. Right now I can barely hear the PC above the faint buzz of the monitor and the semi-distant traffic heard through an imperfectly-fitting double-glazed window. I'm happy with that!

Anyone want to buy a nearly-new ATX version 2 Fortron FSP350-THN-P? Near 80% efficiency, ideal candidate for a fan swap! By peering into the back with a torch, I've spotted that the existing fan is a Yate Loon D12BH-12, 0.30A. So that's the high-speed version, which I wasn't expecting; isn't that surprising for a 350W high-efficiency PSU? It seems to be rated at 77CFM. So that explains why the Fortron wasn't as quiet as I'd hoped! I expect a swap for a medium or even, for the adventurous, low-speed fan would bring large benefits.

Cheers,

Dave

Anyone want to buy a nearly-new ATX version 2 Fortron FSP350-THN-P? Near 80% efficiency, ideal candidate for a fan swap!
You're too far away . Actually it doesn't need a fan swap, it just needs a fan controller mod, which turns it into a hybrid (the fan stays still at startup and spins about 700RPM at full load). All you need is a 150 Ohm\ 1W pot.

Yes it does, that's a ball bearing yate loon, what makes you say it is good? The D12BM in the greenpower SPCR reviewed wasn't very good either, unless you have contradicting experience, I think we should trust dave that that D12BH is unsmooth(and loud).

Very ingenious. And a little scary! I'd be afraid that somebody's pet hamster would get in there and explode.



Oh, you shouldn't necesarily trust what I say! I did say, in reply to Aleksi's comment that the Papst he swapped in his Fortron "was in the same speed range as the original, but the noise was much smoother", that the S12-380 is "Not just smoother but substantially quieter than the FSP". But the main difference is the volume of the noise being considerably less. The noise perhaps sounds smoother because there's less of it; and because the airflow is lower, there's less turbulence.

If a Yate Loon ball bearing fan was running at the same airflow as my Seasonic's Adda, which has been running at a constant 770RPM, then perhaps it would be pretty quiet too. But would a D12BH run that slow? The specs at yateloon.com say it's 2300RPM and 89CFM at 12V (I'd seen 77CFM elsewhere). Assuming linear RPM/V, it would need 4V to run at 770RPM.

I've just spotted that the X-bit labs review I linked to earlier, of the FSP300-60THN-P and FSP400-60THN, says both use the D12BM-12. So why my FSP350-60THN-P has a D12BH is a bit of a mystery. Any FSP reps listening? The same review says both models run the fan around 1000RPM up to 150W. If my D12BH is being fed from an identical fan controller and therefore the same voltage, I calculate it would be running around 1350RPM as its minimum.

By the way, there's a town near where I live called Yate. So I have a little smile whenever I see the name "Yate Loon".

Dave

you might want to try a 1200rpm Coolermaster.

I have a generic (possibly YateLoon D12BL-12) fan rated @ 1200rpm 12v in the PSU and it doesn't run hot.

Okay, but I still don't see why we should assume that a D12BH is a good fan.



I've tried using a D12SH as a case fan, I couldn't get it to work as well as a stock 3700AMB antec fan(at 5v). If I made it run comparably quietly, it didn't cool as well. When I shutdown and rebooted, the fan didn't start up. It does start normally at ~4v, so with a kickstart it should work at even lower voltages, but it might not work well.

mathias
Yes it does, that's a ball bearing yate loon, what makes you say it is good?
Oops, didn't know that. I thought it was a D12SH as in the 60PN series.

davej
I'd be afraid that somebody's pet hamster would get in there and explode.
I really can't imagine a kamikaze hamster that would climb up all the way to the PSU just to put it's head into a spinning fan .

The PN's use D12BH's and D12BM's, maybe more than one type of each of those, and maybe some other fans. Which of the PN's do you have?

Just looked back ot your previous post more carefully... I wouldn't want to run one of those semipassive, why did you use 150 ohms? A bit less and it would probably stay at a similar speed all the time, without rapidly heating up at the start and then cycling in temperature.

mathias
I own two 400-60PN's and a 350-60PN. All three use 5-blade SH's.



I wouldn't want to run one of those semipassive, why did you use 150 ohms? A bit less and it would probably stay at a similar speed all the time
As i have already said, it's a pot (variable resistor): if you want a bit less - turn the knob and make it a bit less . But there's a problem here: the SH requires quite a high startup voltage which will give you about 1000RPM right from the start. It's definitely too loud. The easiest way to get the fan spinning at lower revs is to perform this heat torture mod: while the fan is not spinning, heatsinks heat up to a degree which forces the controller to maximize it's output voltage. The fan starts at high revs and slows down to 700RPM as the PSU gets cooler (a 150 Ohm resistor feeds the fan with a voltage which is enough for it to spin but not enough to start). And stays at that all the time.

A more human way of fixing this prob is to dump the noisekiller and wire the fan through a pot and a capacitor-based starter. The latter provides a short burst of 12V at startup, which gets the fan spinning. But this requires some soldering skills.

Same with my 350-PN, but theFSP300PN uses a D12SM, a very odd looking D12SM, and the retail "aurora" version uses something different.



That's strange, I thought fortrons gave the fan a kick start. I don't think you can call 4v(bit less actually) a high starup voltage.

mathias
The voltage itself is ok but it results in an impeller speed, that's a bit too high for a PSU fan, that's what I mean.

I don't have the time to read so much text atm
But i swapped the fan in my Fortron 350 to a Coolermaster fan that came with my Stacker case. It's soo quiet now and the only thing i hear is my HDD.
It's not a powerful system though. Only a P4 @ 2.4GHz w a XP120.
I have no idea how it sounded with the old fan. I swapped immediately.