My email to Scythe complaining about the Rev. B Ninja

Ryan Norton · Post by **Ryan Norton** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:13 am

Hi everyone,

I've been in a satisfaction pendulum over the Rev. B Ninja ever since I got one last winter. Right now I'm at the "very dissatisfied" end of the spectrum (as opposed to the, "I guess this works OK" end) so I decided to condense my months of experience with Rev. A vs. B into an email to Scythe and see what they say.

Here's what I sent them:
****************
Dear Scythe,

I must very regretfully express my complete dissatisfaction with the revised version (SCNJ-1100P) of your excellent CPU heatsink, the Ninja.

In 2005 after reading Silent PC Review's article about the original SCNJ-1000 Ninja ( http://www.silentpcreview.com/article251-page1.html) I decided to purchase one to improve the cooling of my Socket 939 Athlon 64 3500+ system. Its performance was exceptional and the product satisfied me in every way.

In 2006 I assembled a new PC using an Intel Core 2 Duo E6400 and Asus P5B Deluxe motherboard. I had unfortunately lost the LGA775 socket kit that came with my original Ninja (or perhaps the Ninja did not include an LGA775 mount; I don't remember) so I purchased the Scythe Universal Retention Kit from Newegg.com. Again, performance of the Ninja was fantastic and met the very high expectations I had after my year of using the Ninja with my old AMD system. My CPU's idle temperatures were around 36-38 degC and load temperatures rarely rose much over 45-46 degC.

Your Ninja had worked so well for me in two PCs that when my parents asked me to provide a new PC for them, I purchased a new Ninja to fit onto my old AMD system, which I was going to give them. At this time the SCNJ-1100P Ninja Plus Rev. B was the only Ninja available. When I went to mount it on my old AMD motherboard, an Abit KN8-SLI, I found that the orientation of the "long" and "short" heatpipes had been reversed, with the result that several capacitors near the 939 socket interfered with the "long" heatpipe side of the Ninja. A diagram of the problem is attached to this email.

Very disappointed that I could not employ the new Ninja in its intended system, I decided to "give up" my old Ninja and install it in the system I was assembling for my parents, which, as I already mentioned, used a motherboard on which the Ninja had already been proven to work. Obviously therefore I had then to install the new Rev B Ninja on my P5B-based Intel system, using the new 4-pushpin mounting system similar to the stock Intel solution, as opposed to the convenient and effective backplate plus mounting rails included in the Universal Retention Kit.

Upon succeeding in installing the Rev B Ninja, I immediately noticed that both idle and load CPU temperatures were higher than with the "old" Ninja, to the tune of 5-6 degC. In other words, the CPU that had previously been idling in a 75 degF room in a well-designed and -cooled Antec P180B case around 37 degC was now idling around 44-45 degC, and at load always broke the 50 degC barrier. This was performance functionally identical to the stock Intel cooler, whose primary advantage over the Rev. B Ninja was that it did NOT cost me $39.99.

I have since completely removed and remounted the Rev. B Ninja no less than five times. I have also changed the speed and position of the three 120mm fans in my case -- intake, exhaust, and on the Ninja -- and the Ninja's Rev B performance has not reliably improved. This situation has regrettably led me to remove the old, original Ninja from my parent's 939 system, reinstall the stock AMD cooler there, and replace the old Ninja in my Intel system. Now, I must search for an alternative cooling solution from one of your competitors, probably Thermalright's XP-90 which I positively know will fit on my Abit 939 motherboard, to employ in my parents' PC.

In summary, the Rev. B version of your originally wonderful Ninja has thoroughly disappointed me -- and numerous others on the internet, if you check the Silent PC Review forums: viewforum.php?f=8
viewtopic.php?t=39352

The Rev B Ninja is now sitting in its box waiting to be listed on eBay or otherwise resold, so that I can try to get some of my money back while I search for an alternative. I would like to thank you for the outstanding experience I've had with the original Ninja, but encourage you to take my comments into account when considering a theoretical Rev. C version of your product. Thank you in advance for your consideration.

Best,
Ryan Norton

****************

So I'm going to wait and see what they say, and figured I'd share the results here. I believe most observers would agree the Ninja Rev. B has NOT been the almost unqualified success the original was, especially with LGA775...

burebista · Post by **burebista** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:19 am

Maybe you can post your question in their forum.
Usually they answer pretty quick.

nick705 · Post by **nick705** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:24 am

Best of luck, but people have been bending Scythe's collective ear about the Rev. B mounting ever since it appeared. They're not listening, or they just don't care.

On the contrary, the Scythe rep on their new forum insists that "most people like the pushpins"...

Post by **MikeC** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:06 am

FWIW, I threw my 2 cents in there.

JazzJackRabbit · Post by **JazzJackRabbit** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:26 am

Just buy universal scythe mount if you are that concerned about temps and count it as the cost of the heatsink.

Ryan Norton · Post by **Ryan Norton** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:28 am

JazzJackRabbit wrote:Just buy universal scythe mount if you are that concerned about temps and count it as the cost of the heatsink.

That's what I basically did for the original Ninja, since I lost the included 775 mount. Then I tried using the SCURK backplate+rails arrangement, but none of the three screw-on clips that come with the Rev. B interact with the SCURK rails properly. AFAIK the SCURK is designed for working with the Rev. A but not the B.

Thanks for dropping your two cents in at SCythe, Mike, we'll see how it goes...

panda-R · Post by **panda-R** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 10:50 am

Ryan Norton wrote: That's what I basically did for the original Ninja, since I lost the included 775 mount. Then I tried using the SCURK backplate+rails arrangement, but none of the three screw-on clips that come with the Rev. B interact with the SCURK rails properly. AFAIK the SCURK is designed for working with the Rev. A but not the B.

You're supposed to use the S478 mount when using the SCURK1 with a 775 setup. It should have been included with the REV B. I have used this setup before however it didn't help improve my temps at all, infact the first mounting i did with it was worse.. the S478 bracket did not apply enough pressure for the one i got, however it did work wonderfully for another computer i used... Scythe's quality is not that great for a product from japan!

burebista · Post by **burebista** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 11:26 am

Ryan you have an answer.

AZBrandon · Post by **AZBrandon** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:58 pm

So just curious here, I recently upgraded my 3700+ to an Opteron 185, which is a MUCH more power hungry chip when running both cores at full load. At the stock 1.35v it will hit 80c, which is not good at all. At least it runs undervolted as low as 1.25v at stock speed, which brings my full load temp to a more acceptable 63c. This is all with an XP-90 with the 92mm fan spinning 1600rpm.

This brings me about to the key question; since I have an S939 board (Asus A8N-SLI Premium) that at least visually looks like it should have room for the cooler, is it worth it? I too read the review of the Ninja Rev B and figured it would be a nice upgrade, other than the pain of having to remove my mobo, but now I'm not so sure. I see that one post linked to the Scythe forum saying one guy was still hitting 80c even with the new heat sink.

Ryan Norton · Post by **Ryan Norton** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 2:35 pm

Hey Brandon,

I've got a friend with the same board you do and I don't think the Rev. B will work because of a row of caps on the back-of-the-case side of the 939 socket. Look at the picture of my Abit board that I posted to see what I mean.

The answer I got from Yoo Yongboo at Scythe, though, mentions that if you use the Socket 478 clip plus the Socket 939 socket bracket on the Ninja Rev. B, you can change the orientation of the long vs. short heatpipes and make it work.

I think Mike could do a better job making sense of some of the info Mr. Yoo quoted me as far as heatpipe tolerances and differences in temperature sensing, but the one useful and concrete suggestion I got was the one I just gave about using that specific mounting combo to make the fit work. I'm going to try mounting the Ninja right now and will report back.

AZBrandon · Post by **AZBrandon** » Wed Jul 25, 2007 3:27 pm

Ok, well I guess that's good information to know then. I guess I'm not fully grasping how far out the heatpipes extend then. It seems like both the Ninja and Ultra-120 present their own bunch of fitment issues. Makes me wish my CPU just plain wasn't as hot as it it so I wouldn't even be looking around for a new heat sink! Keep us updated on your test results though.

continuum · Post by **continuum** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:55 am

http://www.scythe-eu.com/forum/233-post2.html

e Retention
We apologize that the Heatpipes direction has changes but this is
something we can not change because of the clip. One possibility
is the use of a Ninja PLUS Rev. B Socket 478 clip and the former
socket 939 retention clip. This would allow you to turn the Ninja
PLUS by 90Â° and have the Heatpipes the way around.

Interesting. Good to know.

Yoo Yongboo appears to be Scythe USA's primary customer service guy for end-users, my answers are always from him as well.

Ryan Norton · Post by **Ryan Norton** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:04 am

Well, I haven't had much chance to mess around with my Ninja(s) since Yoo Yongboo responded to my posts/email. I did, however, get around to trying his suggestion for rotating the Rev. B for 939 installation.

Using the Rev. B 478 clip with the 939 bracket provided me with a difficult but ultimately successful solution. For whatever reason it was VERY tough to engage all 4 of the 478 clip's hooks on the 939 bracket's tabs, but after multiple attemps I got them all locked on and put the system back together successfully. My only gripe is that between my Rev. A Ninja, Rev. B Ninja, and SCURK I hardly know which part came with what!

I still believe that using the SCURK LGA775 backplate and rails with an original Ninja remains the most effective way of cooling Intel CPUs. Maybe Scythe could work on a Revision C "pro" or "enthusiast" model of the Ninja that ditches the push-pins, satisfying both the "I want the best performance" AND the "I want the theoretical possibility of installing my Ninja without removing the motherboard by virtue of the crappy push pins" constituencies! ;^)

AZBrandon · Post by **AZBrandon** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:59 am

Well I ordered a rev B ninja this morning. I guess we'll find out perhaps by this weekend if I can fit it on my mobo or not. My current setup is:

Opteron 185 @ stock 2.6ghz, but undervolted to 1.25v, peaks at 64C w/ Prime95 x 2, 66C w/ cpuburn x2.

I'd like to be able to run it at 2.8ghz at 1.30 or 1.325v but with keeping the temps down to no more than 60C or so. With any luck the Ninja will physically fit and will perform the way everyone says it does versus my Thermalright XP-90 w/ Nexus 92mm fan. I think I already have a socket 478 adapter on there in fact, from the XP-90 install. Who knows, I'm confused as well about what I have now!

Matija · Post by **Matija** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:13 pm

ROFL, just went to visit the Scythe forum and found this little gem. I won't paste the entire message, but here are two lovely excerpts from it:

I run my E6600 @ 1.45v 3360MHz (480x7) and it barely reaches 35-36 under full load.

with the Ninja and good ventilation Iâ€™ve manage to push my E6600 to a stable 4800 GHz, and there are some other extreme overclockers who achieved 5000+ on air.

Either a liar, or a Scythe shill. Or someone living on the Arctic.

Ryan Norton · Post by **Ryan Norton** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:23 pm

Either a liar, or a Scythe shill. Or someone living on the Arctic.

Nah, it's probably just this guy.

Rimshot!

AZBrandon · Post by **AZBrandon** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:14 pm

Well it took a while but I was finally able to get the Ninja to fit on my mobo. The clips were just ridiculously tight. I actually had to clamp them using needle nose pliars. It was physically not possible to secure it by hand. This of course also meant having to remove the mobo from the case to do the install.

The punchline? Even with the stock fan at 12v, it inexplicably ran hotter than my XP-90 by about 3 degrees at stock voltage and 2x CPUburn. I was so frustrated by that point that I just gave up and spent another hour taking it all back apart, mounting the XP-90 and fan back up.

It made no sense really, it took me forever to get the Ninja mounted up right, but when I finally did I knew I had good contact and spread of the AS5 (confirmed by when I removed the Ninja too) plus the stock fan is a 1200rpm 120mm, which isn't exactly a small piece of hardware. Oh well. Looks like I'll just have to settle for what I've got until the day comes to build a whole new system.

Aris · Post by **Aris** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 12:16 am

Matija wrote:ROFL, just went to visit the Scythe forum and found this little gem. I won't paste the entire message, but here are two lovely excerpts from it:

I run my E6600 @ 1.45v 3360MHz (480x7) and it barely reaches 35-36 under full load.

with the Ninja and good ventilation Iâ€™ve manage to push my E6600 to a stable 4800 GHz, and there are some other extreme overclockers who achieved 5000+ on air.

Either a liar, or a Scythe shill. Or someone living on the Arctic.

Its possible with high CFM fans, low ambient temps and a lucky sttepping number. You have to remember that not everyone in this world that uses a ninja is looking for a quiet system.

Matija · Post by **Matija** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:15 am

No, it's not possible, unless the ambient temperature is low enough for a human being to catch pneumonia

E6600 @ 3.36 GHz and 1.45V pumps out around 150W. With an ambient of 20 degrees and load 35, the C/W would be around 0.1, which is roughly half of what the Ninja is capable of. If we take a C/W of 0.17 (a bit on the low side, but nevermind, we'll assume hurricane air speeds and perfect contact), the ambient should be about 10 degrees Celsius for 35C load.

Or to put it differently, under an ambient of 22 degrees and a C/W of 0.2, load temp should be 52 degrees.

4.8 GHz is impossible to reach with the C2D, bar liquid nitrogen cooling, much less 5 GHz.

Anyway, I went to visit the Scythe forum again, and the guy linked to a SPCR review of the Ninja

Too bad he didn't link to the sixth page, in which the rev.B is covered, and the necessity of taking out the MBO for the pushpins is mentioned...

computergeek22 · Post by **computergeek22** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:56 am

Alright so this is relevant to my topic so i decided to post here. DOn't mean to hijack the thread. My computer blew. ANyway So i'm buying a new core 2 duo system and want to reuse my Scythe Ninja Rev A. Now my question is: can I use my Scythe Ninja with the Scurk or wateva backplate that is there because the REV A doesn't include a LGA 775 backplate. Thanks!

cmthomson · Post by **cmthomson** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:02 pm

computergeek22 wrote:Alright so this is relevant to my topic so i decided to post here. DOn't mean to hijack the thread. My computer blew. ANyway So i'm buying a new core 2 duo system and want to reuse my Scythe Ninja Rev A. Now my question is: can I use my Scythe Ninja with the Scurk or wateva backplate that is there because the REV A doesn't include a LGA 775 backplate. Thanks!

Sure it does. The backplate together with the front frame convert your LGA775 board into a 939 mount that the Rev A Ninja clips to. No push pins, no pressure issues.

The frame is compatible with all compliant LGA775 boards. I've used a Rev A Ninja on three different LGA775 boards so far.

But remember: Don't remove the cover from the backplate sticky foam! It's a major job to remove the backplate if you do.

Sylph-DS · Post by **Sylph-DS** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:40 am

I must admit all this really saddens me more than I would have expected of my self. I have a Rev B Ninja, on an AM2 socket, and it works a charm. It basically seems that one very small and easily redesignable part of the cooler drastically decreases its performance on certain sockets. It bothers me that Scythe didn't note this themselves when testing the Rev B, and more importantly that they're doing nothing about it.

Ryan Norton · Post by **Ryan Norton** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:45 am

But remember: Don't remove the cover from the backplate sticky foam! It's a major job to remove the backplate if you do.

I can't reiterate this enough myself... the first time I mounted the Rev. A on my P5B Deluxe I took the covering of the sticky off (I swear the instructions told you to) and removing it a month later was a two hour job with lots of hair dryer action and chopping at the motherboard with sharp implements. NOT FUN!

merlin · Post by **merlin** » Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:29 am

Matija wrote:ROFL, just went to visit the Scythe forum and found this little gem. I won't paste the entire message, but here are two lovely excerpts from it:

I run my E6600 @ 1.45v 3360MHz (480x7) and it barely reaches 35-36 under full load.

with the Ninja and good ventilation Iâ€™ve manage to push my E6600 to a stable 4800 GHz, and there are some other extreme overclockers who achieved 5000+ on air.

Either a liar, or a Scythe shill. Or someone living on the Arctic.

Considering xtremesystems only shows people reaching near 4000 even on air, It is basically impossible to hit 4800mhz without extreme liquid cooling. I'd say it's just a poster trying to boast.

Jason W · Post by **Jason W** » Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:36 pm

Ryan, I just installed a Rev. B Ninja on my GA-P35-DS3R motherboard using the push-pin mounting bracket that comes with the Rev. B. It seems strong enough and tight enough against the CPU IHS. It was a bit of a pain to get the push-pins all the way in, I admit.

Anyway, with this motherboard and the push-pin mounting bracket, I can mount the Ninja in either direction with regard to the long and short heatpipes - the long heatpipes don't touch the P35 chipset heat sink or nearby capacitors. NOTE: I have the Ninja mounted with the long heatpipes mounted the same as in your picture above.

Also, I lapped my Ninja prior to installation. I'm glad I did, as I discovered that the outside edges of my Ninja were higher than the middle, meaning the Ninja would NOT have had optimal contact in the center of the CPU IHS (where the two cores of my E6750 are). Have you tried lapping your Ninja and testing the temps again?

I have not yet powered this system on, so I do not have any temp numbers to post yet. But here are some pictures in case you want to see what it looks like (P182 case):

Before Lapping:

During Lapping:

After Lapping:

Installed on GA-P35-DS3R Motherboard:

I have the SCURK1 universal mounting kit in case I choose to switch mounting methods. But I figured I'd try the push-pin bracket first.

I'm sorry it has been such a pain in the arse for you.

Jason

vaclav · Post by **vaclav** » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:13 am

cmthomson wrote:Don't remove the cover from the backplate sticky foam! It's a major job to remove the backplate if you do.

FWIW, I had to remove the backplate two times in the past month (defective motherboard) and didn't have any problems with it once I followed Scythe's instructions on how to remove it. Admittedly, it may be possible that's because it was glued there for only ~2 weeks or because the MB is pretty hot while running, though.

Sainty · Post by **Sainty** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:41 pm

I just wanted to follow up on this thread and see if anyone else had additional input.

Please see my post here: viewtopic.php?p=363995#363995

I'm going to be using a motherboard very similar to your setup, the LGA 775 series unit from Gigabyte:

GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3P LGA 775

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductRe ... g=-1&Page=

The NB and overall layout of the board is very similar, so I'm wondering what the results were for your unit before and after the lapping in terms of temps. When you get the chance could you please post some test results?

The rig I'd like to use the revB on is the following:

Intel Q6600 CPU
GIGABYTE GA-P35-DS3P (LGA775 board)

After reading several of these threads I'm worried about trying to install this thing and expect solid results, even more so considering the quadcores are going to run hotter than duals.

This leads me to several questions:

1. Of those who have purchased revB's, have you figured out a workable solution with just the standard clip-down hardware or is it touch and go?

2. Of those who have LGA775 boards with revB's installed, which works better, the standard mount or an after market one? If you used another mount besides the one packaged with the HS, could you please mention which one worked the best?

3. Of all LGA775/revB users, what's been your final decision in regards to this cooler? Have any of you managed to get free brackets from Scythe? Did you just give up and RMA the device? Did you make your own mounting system? What's the status guys?

Some of the post on the Scythe forums seemed dismissive of the problems that users have been reporting. As enthusiasts I think we want the option to secure our coolers with the best hardware, something that shouldn't be bought at an extra cost. The SPCR review for this puppy was excellent, but the last thing we want is a quad core burning up due to some flimsy mounting mechanism.

I'm torn between giving this thing a shot when it arrives (should be Tues or Wed of next week), bugging Scythe for better mounting hardware or just RMA'ing and getting another model. For those who have already done some trailblazing in this department, please let us know your final decisions.

Thanks folks!

Ryan Norton · Post by **Ryan Norton** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:23 pm

1. Of those who have purchased revB's, have you figured out a workable solution with just the standard clip-down hardware or is it touch and go?

YMMV. I would NOT say the stock, included hardware for mounting the SCNJ-1100 Rev B Ninja is a 100% workable solution for LGA775.

2. Of those who have LGA775 boards with revB's installed, which works better, the standard mount or an after market one? If you used another mount besides the one packaged with the HS, could you please mention which one worked the best?

I think the backplate+mounting rails using the S758 clip, which come in the Scythe Universal Retention Kit, work slightly better than the stock setup.

3. Of all LGA775/revB users, what's been your final decision in regards to this cooler? Have any of you managed to get free brackets from Scythe? Did you just give up and RMA the device? Did you make your own mounting system? What's the status guys?

I was 100% satisfied with the original, as-reviewed-by-SPCR Ninja on my old nForce4 S939 mobo. After all this fuss and talking to Scythe etc. etc. etc I'd say I'm 75% satisfied with the Rev. B.

Sainty · Post by **Sainty** » Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:31 pm

Is that lack of getting the extra 25% to make it 100% due to the extra struggle in setting the thing up, or because of sub-standard cooling performance? I don't mind extra work in the long run, it is results that count. I'm just a bit worried that this HS might not be able to provide the outstanding results I expected after reading the initial review.