It is currently Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:19 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: what 2nd hand ULV with USB2 T&L laptops are there?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:42 pm
Posts: 606
Location: UK
I am looking for a cheap, 2nd hand, thin and light laptop with an (Ultra) Low Voltage CPU, and USB 2.

less than 13" screen, atleast 1024x768, no optical drive, a mini-pci slot atleast for wifi but i think pretty much everything has this.

looking to spend as little as possible. i have been looking at the dell x200 for a while, however (whilst it has firewire which makes up for that a bit) this i dont think has usb2.

so looking around the p3 up to maybe the ~1ghz celeronM/pentium M's. C2Ds etc are too expensive, and i dont really need that power for a T&L latpop. i'm not sure how good (ie wattage) the ulv p4s are, can't say i have seen many. and not adverse to VIA/transmeta if the price is right.

i'm not sure if there are any p3 ones with usb2..

so what laptopS fit the bill? (i will be looking on ebay so the more laptops that fit the bill the better)

_________________
i3-530, Gigabyte H55M-D2H, CM hyper212+ | Sempron64 3000+, Biostar Tforce 6100, AC Freezer 7, picopsu. 0 fans.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:31 pm
Posts: 11
I was looking for the same at the beginning of the year; here are some tips:

- the P4 was never made in an ULV version. The lowest power P4-M are rated around 26W, i.e. were never used in a thin and light.

- decent (i.e. Pentium M and up) T&L are rather overpriced on ebay. You can find a late-model PIII-M (TDP ~15W) one for a reasonable price, but I feel the early Centrino models are worth the premium, feeling like functionally modern computers. The 100MHz FSB PIII-M was usually paired to a 440MX chipset devoid of USB2; the 133MHz FSB SDRAM Intel chipsets were not USB2 capable either, being paired with the original ICH or the ICH2 southbridge.

- first generation Pentium M Banias LV (6-12W TDP idle/load) and ULV (4/7W) are an excellent bet; the Dothan refresh brought 2MB L2 cache and slightly lower TDP (7.5/10W for LV, 3/5W for ULV), but being found in newer machines, are not worth the premium

- LV and ULV Pentium M are soldered to the motherboard, so forget about subsequent CPU upgrades

- virtually all 2lbs class T&L use ULV CPU and 1.8" HD, except later Panasonic Let's Note R- series (which use 3.3V 2.5" HD, google for the 3.3V mod). This is a big issue since 1.8" HD are not only slow and cramped, but very expensive. Since an astonishing proportion of used laptops I have seen have trashed hard drives with at best mushrooming bad sectors, a 1.8" HD equipped machine might turn out into quite a money pit.

- some Panasonic Let's Note R- series are fanless, with a heat path between the CPU heatsink and the bottom of the keyboard for heat dissipation. A very nice feature IMHO; those Panasonics may also be Japanese-market only, and very expensive 2nd hand, but are the best-built of their kind, with a ventless Mg casing, shock-mounted HD, etc. I understand the otherwise desirable Fujitsu T&L are fitted with fairly noisy fans; Toshibas Porteges have fans to my knowledge. Sonys are too numerous to generalize, but their 2lbs class models typically resort to a dongle for a number of ports (even useful ones such as Ethernet), and always sport a 1.8" HD.

I ended up getting a two-spindle 12.1" LCD Toshiba Portege M100, not as light as I had wished at 4lbs with optical drive removed, but relatively cheap, upgraded with a fresh 2.5" HD (they have come a long way in the past 3-4 years), with internal BT/wifi/SD card reader, and willing to run its 1.2GHz LV Pentium M at sub-ULV voltages stably (for Banias LV: 0.956/1.18V; ULV 0.844/1.004V; mine: 0.700/0.988V). The CPU fan never comes on at these voltages :D

I also have an ancient Panasonic Let's Note CF-S51, a circa 1999 3lbs subnote with a 11.3" LCD. Upgraded with a modern 2.5" HD and the rare PII-400 SL3JW (fitted with a shim between the CPU heatsink and the bottom of the keyboard) it is still serviceable for basic tasks, and more portable than the Portege M100. Such machines can be found for practically free.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what 2nd hand ULV with USB2 T&L laptops are there?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 10:58 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 24, 2005 8:22 pm
Posts: 2465
Location: Vancouver, BC
mb2 wrote:
I am looking for a cheap, 2nd hand, thin and light laptop with an (Ultra) Low Voltage CPU, and USB 2.

less than 13" screen, atleast 1024x768, no optical drive, a mini-pci slot atleast for wifi but i think pretty much everything has this.


IBM Thinkpad X31 fits the criteria (~$300-350 used). It has a standard Pentium M. If you want a LV Pentium M, look at Thinkpad X40 or X41, these are smaller, but a touch pricier (~$400 these days) and have a 1.8" hard drive - say goodbye to upgrading.

_________________
Thinkpad X200 – SSD bliss, T60p – loud hard drive, Core Duo whine :(
Nothing endures but change


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what 2nd hand ULV with USB2 T&L laptops are there?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:23 pm
Posts: 167
qviri wrote:
IBM Thinkpad X31 fits the criteria (~$300-350 used). It has a standard Pentium M. If you want a LV Pentium M, look at Thinkpad X40 or X41, these are smaller, but a touch pricier (~$400 these days) and have a 1.8" hard drive - say goodbye to upgrading.


It's pretty easy to turn a standard P-M (esp. Dothan) into an LV or ULV with software like NHC.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 2:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:42 pm
Posts: 606
Location: UK
hi thanks for the replies, especially smc.
undervolting...
-it is limited to pentium M's and not celeron M's yes?.. and all P-Ms? [inluding (U)LV or not?]
-its not possible to under-clock other than via FSB right? (or is it possible to force powerstates (like600mhz pstate?)
-what is the typical difference between lowest voltage for dothan vs banias [vs (U)LV versions of both??- i'm sure whilst normal ones may be able to UV to the (U)LV specs, surely (U)LV ones can go lower still?.. but i doubt this info is out there?].. and how it varies RE: clockspeed.
-and what determines if u can drop a dothan into a lappy with a banias? (normal voltage)
Quote:
virtually all 2lbs class T&L use ULV CPU and 1.8" HD
i would definately prefer a 2.5" as i'd probably want to upgrade to a 120gb or so as they are quite cheap and hopefully offer a decent performance increase too.. but its not the /end/ of the world if it is 1.8".
how do u find out which has which.. have found it isn't that freely available info (ie not in reviews, or even mf. spec sites)
having a 2.5" drive would probably make a slight weight increase acceptable if theres no alternative.

i don't have a problem with the P3 power.. but there are many architectural improvements; support for more ram, ddr, usually w/ wifi, usb2, lower power.. that come with the C/P-M i suppose.

i was aware it would be a solder-to the MB for (U)LV, which i am comfortable with.
Quote:
Fujitsu T&L are fitted with fairly noisy fans; Toshibas Porteges have fans
would undervolting the CPU not likely negate the need for the fans? [atleast in 95% of times-- they aren't always on fans are they??]

what is the heat like on your Panasonic Let's Note CF-S51?? /wattage of cpu..? it has a drop-in CPU on T&L??.. i suppose PII was the last ones to have this??
damn the lets note 4 looks pretty sweet, 1.2ghz P-M, 2.5" hdd, 8.5hour standard battery, 12", stronger than normal AND less than 1kg!. no wonder they go for a lot.

looking on ebay (UK) there are 3 which are consistantly the cheapest pentium Ms; the dell d400, dell x300 and hp nc4000, so i'll go read up on them.

As far as i can tell (and thats not so far, as the search on ebay sucks [can't search for completed 1ghz ONLY unless its in the title], and i don't know what the model numbers for many are) its significantly more to get one with an ULV (like, twice).. so if i were to go down that route i'd probably get a TC1100 tablet.

_________________
i3-530, Gigabyte H55M-D2H, CM hyper212+ | Sempron64 3000+, Biostar Tforce 6100, AC Freezer 7, picopsu. 0 fans.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2007 4:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:31 pm
Posts: 11
Glad to be of help :D

- Celeron M lacks Speedstep, and thus probably have very limited under-clocking/volting possibilities especially since laptop BIOSes are spartan to say the least. Speedstep must also be supported by the chipset, which Intel desktop chipsets of that generation did not (as I found out by swapping a P4 with a P4-M into a desktop replacement i845 Toshiba - it was stuck at 12x100MHz, no idea about the voltage provided). All Pentium M support Speedstep, low voltage or not.

- Speedstep on Pentium M yields an idle speed of 600MHz at a lower voltage, and a plugged-in/full speed state running the CPU at its rated speed. Not sure whether intermediate multipliers are used by the XP default driver or the OEM W2K Speedstep software. However, utilities such as RMClock give full access to the intermediate multipliers, as on the latest generation AMD and Intel CPU's. No FSB fiddling, that would be in the BIOS, and major manufacturers won't support such a feature.

- there actually is a good wiki on Pentium M's with all the info you need: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_In ... processors

- I believe the lowest VID a Pentium M can request is 0.700V, but am not sure if that applies to all machines; my Portege M100 idles stably at that voltage.

- as for the minimum voltage a CPU will run at at a given frequency, it is a matter of trial and error for every individual CPU. For my P-M 1.2GHz, the linear interpolation offered by RMClock turned out to be suitable. Some of my CPU's (especially my 65nm Athlon X2) tend to crash upon VID/FID changes when running close to their lower voltage limits; RMClock has an option to up the voltage momentarily during transitions to address that. Also, on a LV/ULV P-M, the processing power difference between various multipliers isn't great, so in practice the CPU will run at 600MHz when idle, and at maximum speed when in use. I've only activated the 6x, 9x, and 12x multipliers on my M100, and the 900MHz setting is hardly ever called upon. In other words, no need to activate all intermediate multipliers with the resultant (potentially stability-affecting) frequency/voltage hopping.

- most Banias laptops accept a Dothan with a BIOS update. Since it was a minor refresh, many makers just used the same motherboard on their Dothan machines, with the aforementioned BIOS update. Check on specific models on their manufacturers' websites; the readme for a BIOS sometimes mentions something like 'support for Dothan CPU' (Toshiba's updates do).

- makers are very coy about their use of a 1.8" HD... if the top-of-the-line version of a T&L came with a 20 or 30GB HD, there is a good chance it was a 1.8". The 60GB 1.8" came out much later in the Pentium M lifecycle, and is more likely to be found on Core Solo ULV machines.

- you'll have to google about to ascertain which subnotes have 1.8" HD. To my knowledge, only the Panasonic Let's Note R3 and later (I think R3, perhaps also the R2) use 2.5" HD, among the 2lbs class machines. Users on this forum seem to care about that issue: http://www.leog.net/fujp_forum/default.asp . However I have no idea about what IBM/Dell/etc were doing at the time, since I was never interested in their subnotes (my theory is that American hands are too big for a 2lbs subnote's keyboard...)

- the temperature at which the CPU fan is activated fully depends on the individual laptop's BIOS and sensor. I haven't found any 3rd party software to influence this. You'd be surprised at how frequently some subnotes can run their fans, e.g. even at idle if resting on a non-heat conducting surface.

- my Panasonic CF-S51's original 266MHz CPU was rated at 9.8W, the 400MHz one at 13.1W. Fan runs more often than I'd like, but the shim definitely improved things. Those machines used 'mini-cartridge' Pentium II's (probably born because early mobile PII's did not have an on-die cache), which were later ditched for space and cost reasons. Check here for individual processors' specs: http://processorfinder.intel.com/

Panasonic Let's Notes have a strong following on ebay.co.uk... Some pop up from time to time on the Singapore site (people in SIN and HKG love Japanese toys...). If you have an opportunity to source from Japan, take a look at http://kakaku.com/used/search.asp
Navigate around the japanese menus by reading the links ; you'll get an idea of the going used prices for those machines, in a market not distorted by constricted supply (early 900MHz P-M Let's Note R2 start around $380). I'm thinking of picking one up next time around...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2007 5:24 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:23 pm
Posts: 167
mb2 wrote:
-what is the typical difference between lowest voltage for dothan vs banias [vs (U)LV versions of both??- i'm sure whilst normal ones may be able to UV to the (U)LV specs, surely (U)LV ones can go lower still?.. but i doubt this info is out there?].. and how it varies RE: clockspeed.


.7v/800mhz for dothan vs .85v/800mhz for banias. With Banias chips the ULV might be special, but with Dothans pretty much all of them are capable of extremely low voltages.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:30 am 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 8:43 am
Posts: 587
www.geeks.com has second hand equipment for cheap. I've never bought there so it's not a recommendation, just something I've seen.


Last edited by Copper on Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what 2nd hand ULV with USB2 T&L laptops are there?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:50 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:14 am
Posts: 105
qviri wrote:
IBM Thinkpad X31 fits the criteria (~$300-350 used). It has a standard Pentium M. If you want a LV Pentium M, look at Thinkpad X40 or X41, these are smaller, but a touch pricier (~$400 these days) and have a 1.8" hard drive - say goodbye to upgrading.


I wanted to 2nd qviri's recommendation on the X31. I had a work x31 which I used heavily for ~2 years with intermittent international travel and I found it to be light, reliable and sufficiently robust. I didn't try undervolting it but battery life was sufficient.

_________________
[size=75]P180B | Asus M4A785-M | BE-2350 @ 0.912V to 1.056V | Ninja | 4GB DDR2-800 | Morex 150W Brick | OCZ Vertex 2 60GB SSD| 1x Scythe SFF21D + 1x Nexus 120mm | 29W Idle, 60W Max
[/size]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:42 pm
Posts: 606
Location: UK
Quote:
www.geeks.com has second hand equipment for cheap.
Quote:
Location: UK
these 2 are incompatible. but yeah otherwise they have a few good deals.

the X31 is something i'd probably consider if i was buying new, it seems well built, good balance (battery life v size etc) but they just hold their value too well on ebay uk.. they're >£200 + p&p, and when dell d400's are available for ~£130 (inc).. thats a big difference. (also considering the x31 would be twice the cost of an x200 which is what i was originally looking at)

now, UV software;.. what are the options???
notebook hardware control wrote:
Note you must have Microsoft's .NET Framework Version 2.0 or newer installed.
i hate .net (second only to apps made in java).. it gives a noticeable performance hit when it is installed.. are there any alternatives that work without .net??

_________________
i3-530, Gigabyte H55M-D2H, CM hyper212+ | Sempron64 3000+, Biostar Tforce 6100, AC Freezer 7, picopsu. 0 fans.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 23, 2008 1:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 23, 2008 1:07 pm
Posts: 1
Location: usa
Hi,

I know this post date a bit.

In fact I am looking for teh exact same spec as the first poster.

Main point are battery life, weight and size (I will do browsing, documents for school, and remotely control my home desktop)

I saw the lifebook series (the small ones), the sony pcg (picturebook), the dell x200 and x300 and the gateway 200STm and the portege M100.

I am planing on investing 150$, and will buy a new battery (extended, 8 cell if the dell x300, that seems to fit teh bill/size/weight ...) - I will also buy a bamboo writing tablet from Wacom (so I can ditch my tablet that I have now)

I also love the ultra portable notebook, but they still seems expensive, especially for used.

What to you suggest ?

Thanks

Sebastien

PS: i already have a laptop. Lenovo R61. I am just looking for something that will replace my tablet, when used with the wacom writing pad, and something i will carry and use for school, something that can be close, put elsewhere quickly, so I do not need my bigger laptop - i use it (the r61) for video and audio encoding mostly


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 2:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:31 am
Posts: 8
Location: Sweden
IMO the Dell Latitude X1 is the best you can go.

It has no fans and the only moving part is the 1.8"-HD. The computer is very light at 1.15 kg (about 2.5 lbs), inaudiable from four inches away and capable of running all office-browsing apps you'd like with it's 1.1 GHz ULV centrino. Upgradeable to 2 gb RAM. 12" widescreen display at 1280x768, great near fullsize silent keyboard.

Buy it used off e-bay.

_________________
If you can hear it, then it's too loud.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 12 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group