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 Post subject: Re: I'm Pro-Death!
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:27 pm 
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fri2219 wrote:
The best part about state sponsored revenge killings is that it miraculously brings murder victims back to life while teaching that killing is wrong at the same time.


awesome - that's the sound of a hammer hitting a nail on the head.

I think the best way to prevent murders is to kill everyone - that way there's a) no one left to murder and b) no one left to murder them. Easy! We could even turn it into a reality TV show so TV execs can profit from it and Joe Public can enjoy it until, obviously, they're killed.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:39 am 
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I've summed this thread up to show the Bluefront way of arguing. I mean, instead of upsetting ourselves, we can just read through this, weep and then let it go.

Bluefront wrote:
(...) murder some old lady

aristide1 wrote:
1. A quick death is too good for him.
2. Let him rot in jail.

LAThierry wrote:
By all means, if someone is convicted of first degree murder, put them in prison and throw away the key.

NeilBlanchard wrote:
A person who has been wrongly convicted can always be let out of prison.

aristide1 wrote:
(...) you're asking him how to he actually deal with all the cases DNA has proven the prosecution wrong.

Perhaps what the real question is why a liberal like you needs to seek the truth to the end while the conservative needs only the appearance of justice?

Bluefront wrote:
Sure....like I said, let the guy go free.
(...)...some old lady (...rant...) Big deal.

LAThierry wrote:
BlueFront, it's one thing to have strong opinions but here I'm wondering if you lack reading comprehension. The very article you linked to makes it clear that the guy has already been found GUILTY, and that the trial in question is the sentencing phase. No one is talking about letting the murderer go free, ONLY you. The murderer himself isn't asking to be let go, ONLY you. An exaggeration like that is beyond sarcasm, I don't know what you're trying to say or prove...

Bluefront wrote:
(...) Liberal logic of some of these posts. (...) The old ladies life (...) Well.....except the old lady of course. But she's dead, violently murdered. Somehow I can't seem to forget that. I know others here already have.

jaganath wrote:
Bluefront wrote:
Punishments of any sort never prevent crime...right? The old ladies life can't be brought back....right? Freedom for the guy would save the state any more expense. Everybody benefits...right?

(...)how about actually engaging with the arguments that are put to you, rather than making up some straw men so you can shoot them down with gay abandon.

LAThierry wrote:
Maybe it makes you feel better to place the adjective "liberal" in front of everything you disagree with, but you use "liberal" ad nauseum to the point of forgetting what it means.

aristide1 wrote:
I decided to see if I could verify what PJ ORourke said according to BF over here
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... ourke.html
But BFs quote is not there.

Bluefront wrote:
So you don't like the bleeding-heart Liberal label? Start having sympathy for the victim and his family....rather than the convicted murderer.

NeilBlanchard wrote:
(writes about penitentiaries, which may also save old ladies)

Bluefront wrote:
So yeah, I see what you're getting at. You think the life of a murderer is more valuable than his death under a legal execution.

aristide1 wrote:
Your the one doing the shifting. Everyone is talking about process, while you keep addressing the single case. That alone doesn't make the overall process for everyone correct.

You also ignore the fact that a lot of crazies who clearly didn't do it admit to crimes. The police ignore them after they rule them out. What would you do with them, with your "conservative" views?

NeilBlanchard wrote:
A good, well written law must work in all situations.
(...) OTOH, if they are forced to reconsider their actions for all the remaining days of their lives, they may choose to repent -- and even if they don't, why should we give them an easy out? I want them to suffer the guilt of what they have done.

Bluefront wrote:
So Niel....you want to spare the murderer his execution so he can "repent" while in prison, thus saving his soul. Something like that.....

mattthemuppet wrote:
And this has nothing to do with some poor old granny being murdered, so stop playing the populist line - it devalues your argument. No one's forgetting that someone was murdered (...)

Bluefront wrote:
(Ignores all posts saying they also want to save old ladies, just not the BF way. Instead he repeats that his way would:)...let the old ladies live. Something wrong with that....

NeilBlanchard wrote:
(...) That's not what I wrote.
(...) Again, a good law works in all situations. If irrefutable evidence (like DNA) exonerates someone after they have been convicted and appealed -- does that give you at least a little doubt about our system? What about the fact the people who receive the death penalty strongly correlates with the race of the victim?

NeilBlanchard wrote:
How is it that a large majority of the nations around the world, that find capital punishment repugnant have much lower murder rates? (...)
*China, Iran, Pakistan, Sudan, USA -- that's pretty auspicious company we keep!

Bluefront wrote:
(ignores statistics, ignores statements about longer imprisonment, ignores any direct questions and instead, much to the surprize of all of us, decides to write:) leads me to suspect you have little sympathy for the old murdered woman (...)
And your impression of what prison is all about, doesn't match the reality of today's prison. A prison sentence today means cable tv, work-out gyms, warm accommodations, good food, libraries, free lawyers......not to mention sex and drugs. This is hardly punishment, more like a vacation.

NeilBlanchard wrote:
Prison is anything but cushy -- or are you suggesting that he may be a homeless person who figures that he can be living the life of Riley, if only he can get himself convicted of this horrendous murder?
(...) I want to try and avoid the murders in the first place -- poverty and a cornucopia of guns are very important contributing factors to a violent society.

Bluefront wrote:
Your approach to crime and murder reduction hasn't been working.

...apparently only in OTHER countries. Gun regulation, someone? As it happens, BF spends a lot of time pointing out how bad it works in USA, although surely US practices are much more conservative than most of OECD - meaning CP, longer punishments and lose gun control.

NeilBlanchard wrote:
So by your logic, in countries where they have capital punishment for adultery, rape, sodomy, drug trafficking, human trafficking, corruption, apostasy (the formal renunciation of one's religion) -- should have very low or non-existent levels of those crimes?

Bluefront wrote:
Our situation is completely different, and so are our people. And so are the crimes.

What works here, might not work elsewhere.....and the other way around. I'm still waiting to hear of a way that would have prevented the murder of the old lady in the first post. I suggested a way that might work.....making the punishments harder, more certain. I've heard nothing else.

(The crimes ARE the same, according to available statistics. The "our people are different" argument sounds like "the Asian Way", to pull a less insulting comparison.)

neon joe wrote:
Take a look at Neil's data (...)
If it isn't working anywhere else, why do you think it will work here?

Bluefront wrote:
And the alternative is...... ?

Scoop wrote:
Death sentence isn't even a punishment, it's the easy way out.

neon joe wrote:
I'm not making any excuses for anyone. All I'm saying is that the trend for countries so far has been 'more capital punishment' = 'more crime'.

Bluefront wrote:
(Long rant about a psychopath who says prison is swell)

neon joe wrote:
So your evidence of how great prison is comes from quotes from a man with abnormalities in his brain?

Bluefront wrote:
Murder it seems has become a ho-hum thing all over.....so much for civilized society. It's only a matter of time. Dis-arm all the good guys, close your eyes to further murders, open the prison doors and give all the departing murderers enough money to become model citizens.....oh, and keep voting Democrat. That'll fix everything. Right...... Richard Speck would approve.

Oh and you can always justify the murder of old ladies by pointing out a completely different situation where something happened that you don't like. Just reverse the old saying "Two wrongs don't make a right".

neon joe wrote:
(...)if you look at the data, you can see a trend. If CP was working, crime rate would be low in those countries.
(...) My 'blanket statement' is a generalization based on data that's available. I have yet to see any conclusive data that CP acts as a crime deterrant...

VanWaGuy wrote:
Neil above posted death penalty rates with no corresponding crime rate statistics. There is not enough there to draw any conclusions from or even make a point.

(Isn't this argument supporting the "liberal" point of view? Btw did you compare the figures with laws regulating firearms?)

NeilBlanchard wrote:
(...)Notice too, that firearms are used in almost 3 out of 4 murders, and 3 out of 4 victims know their attacker.

Bluefront wrote:
(...) "Among inmates under sentence of death and with available criminal histories at yearend 2006:
-- nearly 2 in 3 had a prior felony conviction
-- 1 in 12 had a prior homicide conviction. "
(...) Using this statistic, there is no reason murders, further murders, could not be prevented.

neon joe wrote:
Again, evidence that CP is not a deterrant to crime.

Bluefront wrote:
(Mixes up "deterrent" with "prevention", but actually makes a point by arguing that executed murderers seldom get the chance to murder yet again. Ignores posts arguing for life imprisonments.)

Aard wrote:
Quote:
Your approach to crime and murder reduction hasn't been working. Perhaps it's time to try another approach......harsher penalties, and more certain Capitol Punishment when that is the sentence.

This argument always amuses me, although it usually raves about some "liberal" "experiment" that "isn't working" (out of interest is there an American senator who spouts this? It is usually too similarly worded for it to be original thoughts amongst all these people).
(...)
Various crime deterrents used over the last few millennia:
(...long list)
Funnily enough there was demand for these punishments for the entire time they were legal. They are obviously great deterrents.

(The liberals in western EU being the only exception when they sport lower murder rates without resorting to medieval punishments makes those countries per default exceptions. Right?)

neon joe wrote:
Look at the statistics (...)
Besides, do you think that someone who is about to commit murder thinks about that anyway? (...)
You can say that crime is prevented by CP, but you can't provide any evidence...

Bluefront wrote:
(This post, filled with facts and well argued standpoints, speaks for itself:) As expected....more pity for the murderers, with the implication that murder cannot be prevented, no matter what method society attempts.

Dead bodies litter the streets. Old ladies are beaten to death with their throats slashed. Police are killed enforcing parking rules......and yet. It would be cruel and unusual...murder even.... to punish the murderers in a manner befitting the crime.

Makes me wonder if the murder-apologists foresee a situation in their own future, where they, themselves, might benefit from an end to extreme punishment.
:lol:

neon joe wrote:
I haven't said that murder can't be prevented. I haven't ever said that I feel any kind of pity for murderers. To suggest either of these is completely false. I'm just saying is that CP is not a deterrant to crime. If you're so sure it is, let's see some evidence. :roll:

NeilBlanchard wrote:
Prevent murder by removing the large supply of guns.

Bluefront wrote:
Now.....tell me how any gun law would have removed that gun from his hands, after he bought it on the streets.

(You want statistics? No, wait, that's all unapplicable. Not only would I then address the problem in general whereas you BF wants a quick solution to the example he has chosen to present. Also this is America, after all, so comparisons are futile.)

aristide1 wrote:
[Some educated investrigating would reveal greedy gun companies completely run by white men.

NeilBlanchard wrote:


After that the discussion deteriorates into pie-throwing. I'm tempted to have a go at Erssa's arguments also, but no time for it now. I do however find his desperate Saudi Arabia quote rather typical, don't you think?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:34 am 
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:shock: :o :D

Thank you for digesting the entire thread into one awesome post! You put in a lot of effort on it, for sure.

I hereby nominate this post for the Hall of Fame.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:36 pm 
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Awesome recap! Must have taken a very long time to post this...
I liked some of the additional comments added in the quotes.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 3:08 pm 
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The "I'm pretending your opinion doesn't exist because I have no logic to my stand" aspect has been glossed over. 8)

And Snutten, if you have a friendly and effective way of dealing with pure unadultered pig-headedness please you use it first on our Commander and Thief, before bothering with it around here.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 5:08 pm 
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OK so lets sum up the one side to see if its clearer.

Bluefront wrote:
(...) murder some old lady


Bluefront wrote:
Sure....like I said, let the guy go free.
(...)...some old lady (...rant...) Big deal.


The question is did anybody else say it or just him? :lol:

Bluefront wrote:
(Ignores all posts saying they also want to save old ladies, just not the BF way. Instead he repeats that his way would:)...let the old ladies live. Something wrong with that....


Bluefront wrote:
(ignores statistics, ignores statements about longer imprisonment, ignores any direct questions and instead, much to the surprize of all of us, decides to write:) leads me to suspect you have little sympathy for the old murdered woman (...)
And your impression of what prison is all about, doesn't match the reality of today's prison. A prison sentence today means cable tv, work-out gyms, warm accommodations, good food, libraries, free lawyers......not to mention sex and drugs. This is hardly punishment, more like a vacation.


Oh they have sex all right, forced upon them in the showers. What a good time.

Bluefront wrote:
Our situation is completely different, and so are our people. And so are the crimes.

What works here, might not work elsewhere.....and the other way around. I'm still waiting to hear of a way that would have prevented the murder of the old lady in the first post. I suggested a way that might work.....making the punishments harder, more certain. I've heard nothing else.


Quote:
(The crimes ARE the same, according to available statistics. The "our people are different" argument sounds like "the Asian Way", to pull a less insulting comparison.)


And was this statement ignored? :roll:

Bluefront wrote:
(Long rant about a psychopath who says prison is swell)

neon joe wrote:
So your evidence of how great prison is comes from quotes from a man with abnormalities in his brain?


So if I listen to a bunch of drunks for me that's "data that's available?"

Bluefront wrote:
(Mixes up "deterrent" with "prevention", but actually makes a point by arguing that executed murderers seldom get the chance to murder yet again. Ignores posts arguing for life imprisonments.)


No, not really, it can easily work against society. Do you recall the opening crime in the movie "Heat"? All the guards were tied up, not killed. One crook got nervous, and killed one guard. At that point they were all headed for death, because of the felony murder rule and CP. So the logical thing to do next was to quickly kill ALL the guards and leave no witnesses. Does that sound like prevention to you?

Bluefront wrote:
(This post, filled with facts and well argued standpoints, speaks for itself:) As expected....more pity for the murderers, with the implication that murder cannot be prevented, no matter what method society attempts.
:lol:


I think the :lol: belongs outside the quotes.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 11, 2008 5:04 pm 
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Erssa wrote:
One triple murderer has recently been in our newspaper headlines, because he was released on Monday after serving for 19 years.

"After nightfall Valjakkala stole a bicycle. He was pursued by Sten Nilsson and his 15-year-old son Fredrik. The chase ended at a cemetery where Sten and Fredrik Nilsson were both shot by Valjakkala with a shotgun. Later Sten's wife and Fredrik's mother, Ewa Nilsson, went looking for the two, was chased into the woods and had her throat slit by Valjakkala outside the cemetery."

This happened in 1988. He was convicted of three counts of murder. After his conviction he has been in the headlines couple of times as he has tried to, or escaped from prison.

In 1989 his wife was caught trying to smuggle a gun for him to use in an escape attempt.
In 1991 he tried to climb over the prison walls using a rope, but was caught before he managed to escape.
In 1994 he took the prisons english teacher as a hostage, but was caught 3,5 hours after the escape.
In 1997 he was caught from the prison roof as he tried to escape yet again. He was armed with a self-made shotgun.
In 2002 they let him out for a two day UNSUPERVISED VACATION. It was a big surprise when he decided not to come back. He was later caught in Sweden. While he was on the run he stole a car and received a three month sentence.
In 2004 he climbed over the prison walls, but was caught couple of hundred meters outside the prison. He was sentenced to 30 days for this. And as a good use of tax payers money, he appealed the verdict. But later withdrew his appeal.
His last escape was exactly 15 months ago, when he left his "open-prison". He was caught couple of days later.

So the parole board decided, in their great wisdom, to let this "model prisoner" go after serving for 19 years. Which is an exceptionally long sentence by our standards. It seems none of his escape attempts had no effect on the parole decision.
Small follow-up: Valjakkala was arrested on Sunday for violating his "test freedom". Test freedom is a period before parole, when you are released to civilian life, but during test freedom, you have to be at home every night before before 23:00, and you have to carry a mobile phone with you all the time, so police can track your whereabouts. Well the police did a random check-up on Valjakkala on Saturday and, surprisingly, he was nowhere to be found. He had left his mobile phone in his apartment and disappeared.

On Sunday he was caught in North-Finland, 1000km from Helsinki, where he was supposed to be staying. He surrendered peacefully after 30kms of car chase. According to first reports, the van he was driving was reported stolen. No motive has been reported yet, but I wouldn't be surprised, if he was headed to Sweden again.

Violating test freedom isn't a crime, but now they might cancel his test freedom, so he could end up spending his next two months back in jail before his parole becomes final in July, and they let him out on the loose again.

Well at least Finland isn't the only country that knows how to properly punish killers. Here'sa Swedish headline from last week.

"Three teenagers convicted of killing 16-year-old Riccardo Campogiani in Stockholm last autumn have had their sentences reduced by the Court of Appeal. The trio, who were all sixteen at the time of the killing last October, have been sentenced to one years' youth detention rather than the three years recommended by the district court. The boys were found guilty of serious assault and manslaughter."

"If they had been adults the punishment would have been six years in jail," the court wrote in its judgment."

It's good the justice system sends a clear signal to all these kids who mug people in the streets. They better be careful not to kill anyone, you might get one year of youth detention.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:54 am 
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I support re-installment of capital punishment for peoples who have done several homicides. Nowdays criminals have more rights than the victims. Valjakkala i.e. Nigita Foughantine nowdays should be taken behind the Sauna / Barn and finish him good. Send the bill for bullet for his family alá China.

We do not need to pay heavy taxes, so multiple murderers, rapists and so forth get to repeat their actions. Victims and family member of the victims have rights too... So does society. Peoples in society has to be safe from all kinds of peoples who have conduct serious crimes.

In Finland we need harsher punishment, stricter judges... and capital punishment for serious offenses liek multiple cases of homicides or rape / homicide.

I support prison colonies for the repeater offenders. Heck we could ask Russia to form some prison colony in to deepest and coldest part of Siberia and ship them there! I also support chain gangs and that offenders would WORK their ass' off tomake up the society. Currently many prisoners don't want to leave and one guy just killed another random guy so he could get into prison again.

Current prisons in Finland are pretty much like three or four star hotels...

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:09 am 
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sigh... do you really have to dig this wretched thread up again? It's not even as though you have anything original to say, it's just the same old ranting...


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:03 pm 
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Yeah but the murders continue. This week St Louis County buried a poor 22 year old fireman. He was responding to a vehicle fire.....when he got out of his fire-truck, the murderer killed him with a shotgun. For no reason....

And you wanted this murderer to live? Why?

Luckily for all of us, he committed suicide after a police stand-off.

Doesn't help his family, but it helps the rest of us.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:12 pm 
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If I was a US citizen I think I would like him to live, and then try to understand why he did it so that efforts can be taken to reduce the risk of it happening again. Study him and others like him to try finding out why murder rates is so high in the US.

But now when he's dead the problem is over right?

I think your attitude is part of the problem Bluefront. In my eyes the US is a hard and hostile place to live in.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:12 pm 
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Capital punishment does not deter murders.

Innocent people have been executed.

What's wrong with this picture?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:03 am 
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Replace death sentence with actual lifetime. Obviously some murders are too f@#%ed up to ever be released.
By killing the murderer you are imo ending their punishment, cant really say they are being punished when dead (well, unless you believe in some Hell or whatever :P), since they are no more. Its more of a punishment to rot in some hole (throw the key away-method...) until they die.

Not that I believe either death penalty or true lifetime would have any preemptive effect. Its highly unlikely most murderers stop and think about the possible penalty before they commit murder. Its mostly a sudden unplanned action, or done by people who are too far out to give a shit about any penalty.

Erssa: Its pretty sad about youth criminals. If they are old enough to commit serious crimes, they should be old enough to get adult punishments...
Maybe not throw them in together with hardened criminals of course, but its a bit insane to see them nearly going free. Especially since youth criminals might actually be some of those who 'think' about their actions before they do them (although they likely dont understand the consequences), often youth crime seems to be about revenge, gang fights and such. For those children, the lack of consequence for their actions might have an influence.
That said, in most cases there are obviously other reasons for their crimes than lack of punishment, which has to be focused on too, but since crime cant be prevented entirely, the actual punishments still have to exist, and right now, they are severely lacking in many countries it seems (exact same situation in Denmark as it is in Sweden)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:15 am 
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Neil.... you keep saying "Capital punishment does not deter murders". You should realize that things that don't happen cannot be measured.

And I'll keep saying "swift and certain capital punishment will deter murders". An executed murderer cannot kill again.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:00 am 
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Hi Carl,

We have capital punishment, and yet we still have murders.

You cannot bring an executed innocent person back to life.

Nothing brings the victim back to life either, and revenge is ugly.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:46 pm 
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Quote:
revenge is ugly.


and murder isn't?! :shock:

an ugly crime deserves an ugly punishment. we delude ourselves that by eliminating capital punishment we are being enlightened and humane but really we are just kicking the victim's family in the teeth; their loved one, who probably never harmed anyone in their entire life, is dead, while some lowlife scumbag is entitled to lifelong warm state-provided food and lodging (albeit not exactly Radisson standard).

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:13 pm 
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The entire system is broken. Judges, police officers, lawyers ect. I live in a bad area of town where there are many OPENLY known drug houses. I have on MANY occasions told cops about them and they always say "we'll take care of it", but they never do. They are either A) on the take or B) scared to get shot and rather than do their job they drive around eating donuts.

The vast majority of crimes are drug related in some way. If someone is caught selling/buying drugs then F'ing kill them. No I dont feel sorry for you for trying crack, you knew what was going to happen to you. Ohh, you're from a bad part of town and life was always against you? Well it was for me too. But guess what any idiot can get a grant and go to college for free. And if you are a minority <which unfortunately the major of people in prison are> then you get even more incentive to go to college.

If an individual is selling drugs they should be executed, if someone rapes another person they should be executed, if someone repeatedly endangers others or steals they should be executed. Life is hard enough without all these lazy A-holes running around F'ing it up for everyone. And I dont mean putting them in a private prison cell with TV for 20 years, I mean bullet to the back of the head standing over their own grave that you made them dig!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:49 pm 
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Neil.....in effect, we have no capital punishment at all in the USA. Last I heard, the odds of a murderer receiving capital punishment are < 1-100. What sort of a deterrent is that?

Make the odds 50-50 and watch the murder rate drop...... fat chance of that happening in this bleeding heart country. :x

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:11 pm 
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NeilBlanchard wrote:
Hi Carl,

We have capital punishment, and yet we still have murders.

You cannot bring an executed innocent person back to life.

Nothing brings the victim back to life either, and revenge is ugly.

We have guys like Jarmo Koskinen. 1979 he killed two people. He beat the other guy up and burned him to death. He trew the other guy in to a canal where he drowned, that's when he was nicknamed Kanaali-Koskinen (Canal Koskinen). He was sentenced on multiple crimes to a sentence of 12 years. 1980 he almost beat an inmate to death, and right afterwards he stabbed his cell mate to death. He was released in 1997. 6 months later he shot a guy to death. He was sentenced for 7 years.

He hasn't killed since, but he was released back in 2005. 8 months later he assaulted police officers who tried to remove him from train after he had behaved aggressively. He was carrying an unlawful revolver and drugs. In 2006 while was running away from police he broke in to an apartment, where he took two elderly people as hostages (he wasn't sentenced for taking hostages though), but was jailed for 11 months for other crimes. When he was released, he broke in to another apartment, the owner called in the police, and Koskinen was arrested. He was carrying a unlawful loaded revolver. The judge ruled, that this wasn't enough to cancel his parole. In 2007 he hit a guy in the head and back with an axe. The man survived. Koskinen was sentenced for 2 months.
In late 2007 he hit a guy in the head with a bottle. When he was arrested he was in possession of drugs. 3 months ago he received 80 days sentence for it.

Death penalty would have saved at least two lives, and saved many people from other harm caused by him.

There are only two viable solutions for guys like these. Death penalty or life sentence in solitary confinement. Well we don't have even normal life sentences... When these guys are released from prison, I think these guys should be housed next to the judge who released them, or anti-death penalty people like Neil. It's easy to be against death penalty when you don't have to face consequences for it...

Neil, what's your solution for these people?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:25 pm 
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GamingGod wrote:
..., if someone repeatedly endangers others or steals they should be executed.

Bisshop Muskens once said "a poor person stealing a bread can't be blamed".
There is stealing, and there is stealing. What was the reason for this action? Personal gain, a twisted mind, survival?
Excerpt from an interview with the bisshop: "According to Muskens, poverty can sometimes justify theft. He points to an old rule in catholic morality. According to this theory theft is a sin, but someone unable to buy bread and - driven by some higher priority - stealing a bread, doesn't commit a sin".
Sin doesn't equal crime in this example, but it's worth thinking about.

In general, it's dangerous to generalise...


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:58 pm 
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Okay, then why does China still have murders? They execute many more people than all other countries -- and they execute for many other crimes other than murder. Why does China have any crimes that carry capital punishment?

Why are there adulterous women in Saudi Arabia, or any homosexuals?

Here's the list of countries with capital punishment (in the approximate order that they use it):

China

Iran

Saudi Arabia

Pakistan

United States of America

Iraq

Are you comfortable with this company?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:59 pm 
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Bluefront wrote:
Neil.....in effect, we have no capital punishment at all in the USA. Last I heard, the odds of a murderer receiving capital punishment are < 1-100. What sort of a deterrent is that?

Make the odds 50-50 and watch the murder rate drop...... fat chance of that happening in this bleeding heart country. :x


Are you familiar with the 8th amendment? Furman vs. Georgia?
Mistakenly the death penalty was reinstated in 1977, but then in 2008 Nebraska declares it non-constitutional.

Yet you cling to the right to bear arms according to the same bill of rights.

The bill of rights (or more precise, its interpretation) is a mess.


Moreover, I doubt you have seen bowling for Columbine... It has been discussed here before, so bringing it or your comment up again is pointless, but the numbers in that movie stay "interesting".

Using the death penalty *as a deterrent* is a myth:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=168
http://www.karisable.com/crpundeath.htm: I don't like to look at it this way, but is executing someone more "cost effective" than putting them in prison for life?

[edit]* . . *[/edit]


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:18 pm 
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Erssa wrote:
We have guys like Jarmo Koskinen.
...
Neil, what's your solution for these people?

Lifetime (in a single cell) would have kept him from committing murder again too. And in his case, likely some medical treatment on top of it to keep him down.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:26 am 
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Neil....it's an apple/orange comparison, when to attempt compare anything about the death penalty used in China, to the capital punishment used here. Same with all the other countries you list......

In the old days before the bleeding hearts took over, the USA actually used capital punishment as a deterrent. And the murder rate was lower, and there was less crime. Back then we actually executed people for bad crimes, and going to prison was also a terrible punishment.

It's different now.....you can get killed for a pair of sneakers. Your murderer will be back on the streets in a few years (if he's ever caught). There is almost no deterrent to crime any longer, particularly in the urban areas.

Anti-capital punishment people have offered nothing in place of capital punishment and harsh prisons, to serve as a deterrent to crime. You and others seem to forget the meaning of the word "punishment".......it has worked since the beginning. But right now it's no longer in use.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:31 am 
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BF,

it probably is a deterrent, but society isn't a controlled experiment. So, there are other factors driving up the murder rate.

I'm surprised Ralf "Thread Butcher" Hutter hasn't sentenced this one to death btw :twisted:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:35 am 
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Shadout wrote:
Erssa wrote:
We have guys like Jarmo Koskinen.
...
Neil, what's your solution for these people?

Lifetime (in a single cell) would have kept him from committing murder again too. And in his case, likely some medical treatment on top of it to keep him down.
They've still got human contact though I'm fairly certain. There are then still opportunities to cause further evil, though it'd have to be carefully examined as to how frequent such "evil" occurs.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:24 pm 
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Oh come on poverty. This isn't the middle ages, and its not a third world country. This is the USA which was once the most prosperous country in the world but we are sinking into a cesspool.
Any person in this country with the except maybe of the mentally ill can find a job and make enough money to atleast get by. I know it sucks working for minimum wage because I've done it for many years now but if I can do it then all the lazy criminals can too.

I get so sick of going to the store late at night and some guy coming up saying, "My car broke down on the way to my aunts house and my kids are waiting in the kid hungry can I have a few dollars." when really its more like, I just got done pawning my mom, sister, and neighbors belongings for crack and now I begging you for money. Get a f'in job like the rest of us. Your not special!

I thought it was great a few years back when an american kid spraypainted a wall in singapore and they Cained his butt. There will always be crime as long as we are leaneant. I can understand one or two strikes on lesser crimes, but eventually you need to cap a sucker. If someone knows they are going to get their hand cut off, or shot in the head ect. for stealing to feed their drug habit then they are going to think twice about it.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:43 pm 
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Neil,

Why waste your time?

"A rebuke works on an intelligent man more than 100 blows on a fool."
Proverbs 17:10

This is why you keep telling the same certain people here they are wrong.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:51 pm 
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Just re-reading this thread and it seems that some people have interpreted my previous comment has supporting corporal/capital punishment. Quite the contrary! There was a large element of sarcasm in the post, I thought it was obvious but perhaps not :oops:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 1:49 am 
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Aard wrote:
There was a large element of sarcasm in the post, I thought it was obvious but perhaps not :oops:

Surely you're not suggesting that there are people here who can't detect sarcasm? :shock:

First person to post the words "lowest form of wit" or "but this is a deadly serious subject" gets a cookie.


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