It is currently Tue Jul 29, 2014 2:54 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Scythe Ninja 2: Tweaking a Classic
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:28 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 11822
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Scythe Ninja 2: Tweaking a Classic

_________________
Mike Chin,
Editor/Publisher, SPCR
Support SPCR with your donations!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 9:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:00 am
Posts: 2131
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Pretty much what I'd figured. Nothing they do seems to beat the original, but is it due to the mounting or something else? Maybe a bolt-through mount might be tested as a followup? And maybe some numbers with a 1200rpm Slipstream slowed to 1000rpm (9v, I think) to see any departure from the Nexus? It's seems only fair to test the HSF combo with a similar fan to the one included in the box. I don't expect the number to show anything different, mind you, just a recommendation.

_________________
HTPC: OrigenAE X11|Gigabyte GA-MA785GPMT-UD2H|Phenom II x3 740BE w/AC Freezer 7|150GB Velociraptor|Corsair VX450
Main: Antec 300 (SlipStream @ 800rpm/140mm @ 5v)|Asus M4A88TD-M|Phenom II x4 945 (Mugen2 pass.)|Asus EAH6850|Samsung 830 128GB|Antec TP750
WHS: DF-85|P8H67-M Pro|I5-3450S/Hyper 212+|Corsair AX650|Sandisk Extreme 240GB, 2xWD20EARS, 2x WD15EARS, WD15EADS


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 6:29 am
Posts: 132
Location: IN, USA
Nice review Lawrence, especially considering the ho-hum nature of another ninja-clone tower cooler. That picture of the motherboard bending scares me. As I understand, your test bench doesn't involve screwing it flat again, like it would be if it was installed in a case. It seems like doing that would re-focus the tension of the push-pins back around the socket area. I have no idea if that would be more or less potentially damaging, however.

I wonder why they didn't just send you the backplate kit?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Small spelling error
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 10:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:45 am
Posts: 19
Location: Klamath Falls, OR
Quote:
The Nexus fan is usually inaudbile at 9V or less unless the ambient noise level is very low as it is in our anechoic chamber.


Just change the spelling to "inaudible" and it should be fine. Otherwise, good article. I appreciate the balanced conclusion that (as usual) exposes weaknesses without denying any of the positive aspects that exist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:48 am
Posts: 400
Location: Orlando, FL
While the AMD clip might not be anything to write home about, as far as I know, most every AMD heatsink uses tension clips and they seem to work pretty well. I know you said that it isn't a "Top 5" heatsink, but what about for AMD? Several of the "Top 5" aren't really usable on AMD because they face the wrong way (e.g. HR-01 without 'S' clip, Xigmatech 1283, etc.). Where would it fall on a "Top AMD Heatsink" list? With the positioning issues of AM2 heatsinks, why isn't there a separate heatsink list?

_________________
Main Rig: Athlon II X4 620 @ 3ghz, w/ Ninja Mini, MSI R4830-T2D512, GA-MA78GM-S2HP, 4x2GB DDR2 800, WD5000AACS, 120mm S-Flex 1,200rpm & 800rpm, TV Wonder 650, Signature 650, NSK2400
Laptop: Asus UL80VT-A1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 10:29 am
Posts: 2299
Location: Bellevue, Nebraska
Disappointing, as i've come to expect from scythe heatsinks. They could get away with it a few years go when they were really the only good choice, now thermalright and xigmatek both have better heatsinks with better mounting options.

The only thing scythe seems to do well lately are make quiet fans.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:44 am 
Offline
SPCR Reviewer

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:07 pm
Posts: 1018
Location: Vancouver
Ch0z3n wrote:
While the AMD clip might not be anything to write home about, as far as I know, most every AMD heatsink uses tension clips and they seem to work pretty well. I know you said that it isn't a "Top 5" heatsink, but what about for AMD? Several of the "Top 5" aren't really usable on AMD because they face the wrong way (e.g. HR-01 without 'S' clip, Xigmatech 1283, etc.). Where would it fall on a "Top AMD Heatsink" list? With the positioning issues of AM2 heatsinks, why isn't there a separate heatsink list?


Are the clips that great? I've heard many tales of the little nubs breaking off the AMD retention module - far more than push-pins.

We can't say how good an AMD heatsink is without testing it on an AMD platform. And if we built a whole new platform for it, the effect of 'incorrect' positioning would be moot on an open test platform. Facing the wrong way doesn't make it unusable, not ideal maybe, but certainly not usuable. We'd be obligated to test it inside a case and so we'd have to consider whether the extra man-hours are worth it...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 11:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:48 am
Posts: 400
Location: Orlando, FL
I've never heard about them breaking under any normal usage. I can't compare them all that much since I've never used push-pins, but from reading reviews etc. it is a lot more idiot proof and easier to make sure you get good even pressure.

First of all it seems a bit odd to only be doing testing for one of the major processor companies. But you wouldn't necessarily need to do closed case testing on all of them. Do some closed case testing on one that can face either way (e.g. Sunbeam Core Contact Freezer) and see how much difference it makes to face in the wrong direction. If it is fairly noticeable, then you just wouldn't have ones that face the wrong way on the "Top AMD Heatsink" list. If it turns out that the orientation makes little to no difference, then ones that face the right way would just win on tiebreakers.

_________________
Main Rig: Athlon II X4 620 @ 3ghz, w/ Ninja Mini, MSI R4830-T2D512, GA-MA78GM-S2HP, 4x2GB DDR2 800, WD5000AACS, 120mm S-Flex 1,200rpm & 800rpm, TV Wonder 650, Signature 650, NSK2400
Laptop: Asus UL80VT-A1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:24 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:26 pm
Posts: 11822
Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
The question of orientation is not about CPU cooling; it's about how much louder the PSU in your system might run if the CPU fan is blowing into it.

So it would affect cooling performance results not a whit, and the impact on PSU noise is so system dependent.

The bottom line here is that a HS that allows the fan to blow in the direction of the back exhaust fan is preferable to one that doesn't, but it's not a prerequisite to good performance, and it may not have any affect on noise. For example, if you have a low power 45W AMD CPU and a good 400W PSU with a high hinge ramp up speed/temp, probably no difference in noise at all.

Finally, also testing on an AMD platform would certainly increase the complexity of our test procedures. I'd be loathe to do both. There's enough info in the reviews already. The only real benefit would come when/if the mounting for AM2 is much better or worse than that for the 775. Usually, we comment whenever we see strengths or weaknesses with AMD mounting.

The original underlying assumption of our testing was that the 775 socket mounting systems are worse, and vary more than AM2 mounting systems. I think that assumption remains reasonably valid today. If a HS does well on 775, there's no reason to believe it wouldn't do just as well on AM2.

_________________
Mike Chin,
Editor/Publisher, SPCR
Support SPCR with your donations!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:32 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2008 5:48 am
Posts: 400
Location: Orlando, FL
Ah, good point MikeC. In a p182 where the PSU is on the bottom anyway, it wouldn't make a lick of difference if it points up instead of back? Like, it wouldn't mess up air flow or anything?

_________________
Main Rig: Athlon II X4 620 @ 3ghz, w/ Ninja Mini, MSI R4830-T2D512, GA-MA78GM-S2HP, 4x2GB DDR2 800, WD5000AACS, 120mm S-Flex 1,200rpm & 800rpm, TV Wonder 650, Signature 650, NSK2400
Laptop: Asus UL80VT-A1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 3:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2003 9:20 am
Posts: 737
Location: UK
It will be interesting to see what people make of this in six months time, at which point any quality/manufacturing problems should be apparent. The old ones seemed very poorly built considering the price.

_________________
http://world3.net


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:49 pm
Posts: 305
Location: Sweden
I think the bundled fan makes it really an attractive alternative, the only cooler with a fan quiet enough for us to use.

I've had it running since this summer and I'm amazed of the quality of the cooler, maybe not a top performer at 12V but who really cares about high airflow performance since most of us run all fans at 5-7 volts. Unfortunately the cost has increased a bit in Sweden so for the moment a HR01-plus is cheaper even with a added fan.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 4:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:25 am
Posts: 247
Location: England
Great review, very informative (as usual).

As somebody above noted, it would be very interesting to compare results with the CPU cooler stabilizer 775 kit, maybe you could add a postscript if you get the kit in for testing. Even if it is not practical to redo the temperature testing, a quick examination of the ease (or otherwise) of installation would be very useful for potential purchasers.

On a personal note I was shopping for a new cooler this week and after using pushpins for the last couple of years I never wish to see them again; had the Ninja 2 been supplied with the 775 kit as standard it would have been my first choice, but it wasn't so I spent my money on a Thermalright heatsink instead.

According to the Scythe EU marketing department they are planning to release some heavier coolers which use the backplate mounting as standard next year:
Quote:
Hello Mr. Bxxxxx,



thanks a lot for your questions.

Actually, it is not planned to include the CPU Cooler Stabilizer 775 in existing packages but a backplate-mounting will be included in coolers coming in 2009 which are heavier than it is good for the PushPin-system. Intel certified these PushPins for Coolers with a weight more ~1,3 kg, so we are inside of this with all of our coolers expect Ninja CU and Orochi.

If you don’t trust the PushPins, you could upgrade your Cooler with the Stabilizer 775 Kit.



Kind regards and greetings from Hamburg,

Stefan Wxxxxxxxx

Marketing und Support
I look forward to the SPCR review.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:21 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:19 pm
Posts: 261
Location: Dubai
What a waste. I guess I should just be glad I picked up the copper unit with a proper mounting system when I had the chance. It's really a shame Scythe hasn't been able to build on their early success.

_________________
Intel i7-3770S l Thermalright Venomous X l Asus Sabertooth Z77 l 8GB G.SKILL Sniper Low Voltage l ??? l Samsung 830 256GB l Areca ARC-1200 l WD Caviar GreenPower 1TB (RAID1) l Pioneer BDR-207DBK l Creative X-Fi Titanium HD l Kingwin Stryker l Antec Solo II l HP LP2475w


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 5:08 am 
Offline
Moderator

Joined: Mon Dec 09, 2002 7:11 pm
Posts: 7366
Location: Maynard, MA, Eaarth
Hiya,

I wonder what it would take to have a bolt-through kit with the screws going through the back of the motherboard (with threaded holes on the bracket on the Ninja 2's base)?

_________________
Sincerely, Neil
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 6:13 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 3:03 pm
Posts: 71
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Are you sure your Ninja Rev.B isn't defective? Using the same fan (Nexus Real Silent 1000rpm) my Ninja Rev.B is no more then 5ºC hotter then my Ultra-120 Extreme. So it should be about 3ºC hotter then the Ninja v1. For it to be 6-10ºC higher seems... excessive.
I tested this on a OC'ed Opteron 170 which would be 120Watt+.

Either that or your Ninja v1 is a freak or my TRUE120 sucks (doubtful as the temperature at the base is the same as the fins/heatpipes, i.e. no heatpipes are broken).

_________________
[ Opteron 170, TRUE120 ] [ 2GB G.Skill HZ ] [ DFI nF4 Ultra-D ] [ 8800GTS-512 ] [ 1.5TB Seagate ] [ Seasonic S12II 430W ] [ Antec Titan ] [ Pics ]


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:32 am 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:47 am
Posts: 1501
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Since the Ninja+ rev.B gains 4-5 degrees when mounted with bolt-through I would believe the same could be true for the Ninja2.
Unfortunately, I couldn't test this myself: I bought a Ninja2 and a bolt-through kit, but my mother lost the Ninja2 while carrying the bag to the car.
I doubt I would have been able to mount the Ninja2 with the Thermalright bolt-through kit, since there's simply too little space.
I ended up reinstalling my SI-128 with the bolt-through kit, enough to gain back the degrees lost due to the lower spinning fan of my new Enermax 82+ PSU.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:06 pm 
Offline
SPCR Reviewer

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:07 pm
Posts: 1018
Location: Vancouver
You can use a bolt-thru kit, but it'll be tough to tighten. You'd have to rotate it with a wrench or pliers... do they make L shaped screwdrivers? :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 2:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:48 am
Posts: 55
Think someone mentioned in another thread that you should use a Xigmatech bolt-thru kit in lieu of the Thermalright not fitting.

bozar wrote:
I think the bundled fan makes it really an attractive alternative, the only cooler with a fan quiet enough for us to use.

Now that isn't true - Noctua bundles their fans with their heatsinks. Nexus does too, though I haven't heard anything positive about their heatsinks.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 7:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:18 am
Posts: 449
While the original Ninja has those gaps in the fins, this one hasn't. With the original and a Thermalright BoltThru kit, you can insert a long screwdriver through the gaps and tighten the screws.

I can't see how you could use the same Thermalright BoltThru kit on this one, as you have nowhere to stick a screwdriver and tighten the screws..

Perhaps a hex bolt might do so you can stick a small wrench in from the side.. Certainly won't accept any screwdrivers ''from the top''! I'm pretty sure the mobo bending is acceptable, but this effectively decreases heatsink contact pressure, and it might worsen over time. And it looks bad. :)

_________________
My DIY MDF case: Click!
My Nvidia 6800GT mod: Click!
My old 9700pro AIW mod: Click!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 9:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:35 pm
Posts: 808
Location: Greece
Quote:
Perhaps a hex bolt might do so you can stick a small wrench in from the side


Nice idea, anyone know the diameter of the screws in the thermalright bolt thru kit? M3?

_________________
My PCs: Workstation : HTPC in a CD player case : Custom Mini ITX projects


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:20 am
Posts: 3141
Location: Missing in Finnish wilderness, howling to moon with wolf brethren and walking with brother bears
Peoples have reported in SPCR that Xigmatek's Crossbow volthru-kit can be used with Ninja 2, as they have mini wrench attachment and mini wrench comes with the box, no need for a screwdriver in that part...

_________________
If seeing is believing, how can blind person believe in anything?
Maturity is just not experience in life but also ability to make compromises.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:32 am 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:47 am
Posts: 1501
Location: Bucharest, Romania
@Lawrence Lee: I already mentioned in the forums that a 90 degrees angled screwdriver would be handy. Link to Wolfcraft product:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wolfcraft-degre ... 76&sr=8-29
But I doubt even that would fit between the Thermalright kit and the Ninja2. I think the new Scythe CPU Cooler Stabilizer 775 is the way to go.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 7:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 6:41 am
Posts: 109
Location: Toronto, Canada
Aside from the difficulty accessing the screws, has anybody gotten this heatsink to work with Thermalright's bolt-thru kit? The bad mounting (more so the lack of slots to fit a screwdriver) really is a significant turn-off for me.

_________________
Deal with it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 12:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 2:33 am
Posts: 124
Location: Australia
Tzupy wrote:
my mother lost the Ninja2 while carrying the bag to the car.


Please do elaborate :shock:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:04 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 12:05 am
Posts: 402
Location: Romania
I have a guy in our forums who did a DYI mount with nuts, fittings and screws (it's in Romanian but it has some pictures).
Q9450 @3.2GHz, max. 67°C in Linpack. Fanless. His setup.
Bottom line, a very good heatsink but with a TR Bolt-Thru kit, Scythe Stabilizer, Xigmatek Crossbow or DYI nuts and screws.

Thanks for review SPCR.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:03 am
Posts: 364
Location: Sweden
Ch0z3n wrote:
Several of the "Top 5" aren't really usable on AMD ... Where would it fall on a "Top AMD Heatsink" list?
That's my thinking as well.
Not only may there be problems regarding facing; many heatsinks don't even come with an AMD mounting anyway.

I have socket 939, and Ninja 2 is one of the few available high performance hetasinks that expressively support that socket.

(BTW, can it be assumed that any HS designed for AM2 will fit 939? I've seen hints towards that direction, but nothing definitive.)

Cheers
Olle


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:17 am 
Offline
*Lifetime Patron*

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:47 am
Posts: 1501
Location: Bucharest, Romania
Hypernova, my mother was carrying a bag with the Enermax Modu82+ 525W at the bottom and the Scythe Ninja2 on top.
I was carrying another bag with various stuff and an APC BE550GR which is a bit heavy.
When I wanted to get the Ninja2 from the car I couldn't find it, searched all over the car, no luck. It's lost... :(


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2008 11:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 2:18 am
Posts: 449
Its pretty big, sure you didn't have to look into the Ninja to find the car? :)

_________________
My DIY MDF case: Click!
My Nvidia 6800GT mod: Click!
My old 9700pro AIW mod: Click!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 8:35 am
Posts: 1253
Location: Pleasanton, CA
jhhoffma wrote:
Pretty much what I'd figured. Nothing they do seems to beat the original, but is it due to the mounting or something else?


There are two big differences between the original Ninja (rev A) and later ones: the mounting system, and the base/heatpipe junction.

I am the happy owner of a rev A Ninja, which has performed flawlessly for several years on a bunch of CPUs and motherboards. Its backplate mounting system is certainly a plus.

But typically overlooked in these reviews is how heat gets from the base to the heat pipes. In the Rev A, the pipes are mashed and also soldered to the base. In the Copper, they are neither. I'm not sure about the Ninja 2.

Less important, but probably important nonetheless, is how the heat pipes are connected to the fins. Again, on the Rev A, they are soldered. Later versions use friction press fitting. This can't help either.

These factors, I think, account for why the true competitor to the original Ninja is not a later Ninja, but the Xigmatek.

_________________
i7 2600K CPU@4.4 GHz, Asrock Z68, 8GB Corsair Vengeance 1866 CL9, Intel 335 240GB SSD + Samsung HD502HI 500GB, Internal i7 graphics, Antec P180 case, Seasonic X-400 fanless PS, Megahalems CPU HS, Nexus 3-pin & AC PWM fans ~ 600 RPM, AcoustiPack foam, homemade ducts.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 37 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group