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 Post subject: Building a silent watercooling kit, please help!
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:20 pm 
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Hello all!

During the last few months I have been struggling to keep my computer quiet and cool.

I have assembled a computer discussed in this thread:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... hp?t=51583

Furthermore, I made another thread to discuss the cooling and fan placements here:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... hp?t=52509

And lastly I made a thread complaining about high temperatures I got with my computer and it is been discussed here:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... hp?t=52398

I have tried all the crazy stuff, and I decided to test a little watercooling, which I believe I should be able to:

- reduce the ammount of internal case fans or speed;
- reduce the temperatures, or get lower temperatures than aircooler;
- reduce the noise due to less amount of case fans;
- build a system with minimum maintenance possible.

Currently my system is:

- Antec P182 gunmetal;
- Evga NF790i Ulta A1;
- Intel Q9550 (stock speed, no O/C);
- 4 GB of 1600 DDR3 Corsair Ram (no O/C) (will be 8gb soon);
- ATI 3870 (will be GTX 285 sli or tri-sli soon);
- 1 pair of Nexus Fans and 1 pair Noctua Fans;
- Xigmatek HDT-S1283 Cooler with Scythe Kama PWM fan;

The temperatures I am getting for NB/SB is very high, and is my major concern, the CPU temperatures are equally high, but not as high to be "worried".

So I took a deep breath and decided to buy the following kit:

- Swiftech MCRES-Micro V2 Reservoir;
- Swiftech MCP350 Pump;
- Bitspower Waterblock for NB/SB N790NS Black Freezer;
- Waterblocks for all Mosfets, 2 in total;
- 15 ft of tygon 3603 tubing 3/8 ID (5/8" OD);
- Fluid.

What I am still missing and I am debating a lot before doing the purchase:

- Radiator ( I am VERY motivated to buy >>>THIS<<<);
- CPU water Block;


So here are my questions...

Radiator:

- I am willing to send my P182 for a mod and install the radiator inside the case, I can fit the small 1 120mm fan radiator in the back, or the 2 or 3 120mm fan in the top of the case, I have seen the mod and it looks very nice. Which radiator should I get to watercool the whole setup, including the video cards in SLI? If I get the 1 or 2 120mm fan radiator will it be enough to cool only the CPU, NB&SB and Mosfets?

- Having the Radiator inside the case, professionally installed, is a good or bad idea?

CPU Waterblocks:

- Which CPU waterblock should I buy?
- Is there anything such as good or bad waterblock?


-----

Sorry for the LOOOOOONG post! :)

EDIT: This thread here http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?p=1826842 motivated me to go for watercooling! The radiator instalation in that case is so pretty!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:08 am 
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If your ultimate goal is to have a quiet high performance computer, then why not go "all in" for quiet water cooling?

That means water cooling for the graphic cards as well, and cooling it off with a large passive radiator mounted somewhere outside the case. If you don't need to move the computer it's easy to have a radiator mounted on the wall. Use the type of radiator normally used for heating the room, supplied by your local plumber.

If you want some mobility it should suffice to have an Innovatek Konvekt-O-Matic MAXI-plus on each side of the computer, possibly aided by a Konvektor Booster Kit.

Cheers
Olle


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 8:34 am 
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Hello Olle,

WOW amazing, I had to use an online translator to read it, but it seems to be great!

Ideally the more "compact" the solution the better, mounting the radiator inside the computer would allow me, to move the case/computer, clean the desk, and do all the things needed.

Furthermore, the idea of installing it in the case is to have a all in one solution for water cooling, I am not sure if this is correct, but the "professional" installed, told me that the fans would "suck" the hot air out of the case passing thru the radiator.

I do want to cool the video cards, but I am not sure if with the setup I am building (or the things I already bought) will be enough to cool the WHOLE computer.

Thank you for all the links!

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And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
cause its ok to be a boy
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 9:16 pm 
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Just a BIG tip:

water cooling always has higher temps than air cooling when it comes to the CPU. graphics? water rocks comparitively. What happens when the water heats up? it stays warm. It just stays a certain temperature. Now, overclock it and game for 10 hours straight.... the temps only go up 5-6 degrees. Water provides silent stability, it is not "cooler running".

I have water and I would never ever go back to air so long as I can keep and finding compatible water blocks. If you get a big enough radiator, or attach a few together if they are small, you never need a fan either for anything except some turbulence inside the case for mild air flow.


that radiator row looks decent. I would rip out the fans and use slow moving scythe fans and a control bay at like 5volts for silence.

Also, no, there are no bad waterblocks. I have ones from several years ago that are fine, the new ones just create more "turbulence" to be more "efficient". They all are the same..... except: You must stick with the SAME company for all the parts. Differences in metals corrode real bad.

Liquid tip: Watter wetter and steam distilled bottled water from the supermarket. I forgo the traditional fluids or anti-freeze in favor of 90%+ pure water and the rest water wetter from Redline. Works for 4 years now without corrosion and changing it every 18 months so far in the systems I have tried out. Key is to stick with ONE companies products. OTherwise you have to use a lot of icky old low heat capacity car antifreeze and then run much faster pumps to absorb the heat.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 11:11 pm 
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Hail El Jefe!

Thank you for your answer!

Good tips!! Ill get a waterblock from Bitspower then!
I tohught I should stick with the same material (copper) but didnt know I should buy the same brand!

Another question.. Will my pump (MCP-350) be enough for all the necessary cooling and the big radiator?

Thank you!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:10 am 
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~El~Jefe~ wrote:
Just a BIG tip:

water cooling always has higher temps than air cooling when it comes to the CPU.
Water provides silent stability, it is not "cooler running"


eh? you are talking nonsense mate. under load and idle a good watercooled system will always be cooler.

~El~Jefe~ wrote:
You must stick with the SAME company for all the parts. Differences in metals corrode real bad.
Key is to stick with ONE companies products. OTherwise you have to use a lot of icky old low heat capacity car antifreeze and then run much faster pumps to absorb the heat.


and now you are just talking pure and utter shite. i know you are trying to help, but this is just misinformation.

i currently have waterblocks on my cpu, northbrige and gpu. i use the same pump as you do kate, and i am currently using a thermochill pa120.3 with 1 fan on it for cooling.

both my cpu and gpu are quite heavily overclocked, and the cpu sits around 4% over the ambient temperature of the room.

now, i am planning on further cooling the ram on the graphics card and motherboard, as well as the southbridge. this will insure that almost all the heat produced by the system is handled by the radiators, of which i plan to install an extra pa120.3.

this will allow the entire system to run much cooler. at optimum, the entire system will run only a few degrees bove the temperature of the room. although i personally lack the ability to explain this properly, i suggest you properly research watercooling before you take a dive. overclockers .com has a wealth of well informed and well made articles on the subject.

lastly, mixing products of different companies will not create the effects above. you will not need a 'much faster' pump, nor will you need to add 'a lot of icky old low heat capacity car antifreeze' to the system.

waterblock manufacturers generally have used either copper or aluminium in their construction, however alumunium is in decline as when mixed with copper a galvanic reaction is produced which will erode the aluminium. in an all copper system this does not happen, no matter which manufacter has made the blocks.

on a final note,
i dont often post in these forums, and i knw he was trying to help, but that post was so full of misinformation and plain utter fiction presented as facts, i had to set the record straight.

~El~Jefe~ please at least have some manner of comprehension of a subject before you start giving advice on it.


edit. kate, what radiator are you planning to use? the pump should be more than adequate.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:51 am 
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Kate wrote:
... mounting the radiator inside the computer would allow me, to move the case/computer, clean the desk, and do all the things needed.
Mounting it on the outside of the case won't prevent this, it will just make the computer case a bit wider.
Kate wrote:
... the fans would "suck" the hot air out of the case passing thru the radiator.
I do want to cool the video cards, but I am not sure if with the setup I am building (or the things I already bought) will be enough to cool the WHOLE computer.
Herein lies the culprit.
Your high powered graphics card will let out a substantial amount of hot air inside the case. That hot air is what makes your chipset and CPU warm as it is, and will reduce the efficiency of any water cooling if you have the radiator mounted to use that hot air.

Conversely, if you use water cooling for your graphics cards, the air inside the case will be a lot cooler, allowing better (air) cooling of your chipset and MOSFETs. So water cooling for the graphics will allow semi passive air cooling of the "smaller" parts.

Using a built in "triple" radiator is more than sufficient from a sheer cooling perspective. When you run the computer at full load it will need some audible fans though. (A "single" radiator is sufficient for 400W without overheating, using a ~3,000rpm fan. a "triple" radiator should reach the same level of cooling with three 1,000rpm fans. Your cooling requirement is roughly 100W for the CPU plus 200W per graphics card.)
With triple GTX285 you'll probably need some really serious fans on a "triple" radiator to keep the temperature at a comfortable level when pushing them hard. Nothing close to "quiet".

As I see it this is a balance between space/volume, noise and cooling efficiency:
- Internally mounted water cooling must be noisy when the computer is working hard (using the CPU and graphic cards of your description).
- Externally mounted radiators are more efficient and can therefore be ran with less noise.
- Combining internal and external radiators is also possible.
____________________________________________________

Now for the issue of "mixing metals" in the various parts of the system.
Iggy is right that there's a convergence towards pure copper. That doesn't prevent a frequent use of other materials as well, not least in the tube connectors; stainless steel, nickel coated metal, brass, etc. Aluminium is also encountered in some radiators.
The solution is to use distilled (battery) water combined with some anti corrosion additive from any of the major water cooling manufacturers. Water wetter, as suggested, is just smelly and toxic. It doesn't help much, as shown in this test (0.5C improvement), and is better left aside.

Cheers
Olle


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 7:59 am 
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Hewwo Olle P,

You are right, mouting it outside the case will make it only a big larger, i have not disconsidered the idea of mouting it outside, I just prefer it inside because of the looks, mounting it inside would make it look "less DIY" and more professional looking. But I have NOT discarded the possibility of mounting it outside.

I want to watercool my GPU too, but for a couple of weeks I will run it as air cooler just because of the costs for the waterblocks, I found that GPU waterblock is as expensive as the MB (nb&sb) waterblock.

It will not be triple GTX285, at least not now, the costs are prohibitive, but I want to leave that possibility open, I believe in 6 months prices will drop substantially, or even a cooler and better card might be available, so having the possibility of tri-sli is great, but will not be for now...

I knew about the galvanic effect when using different materials, what I didnt know is that to avoid it, we need to stick with the same brand name. Its a pitty because I wanted to use GPU waterblocks from swiftech because they have a nice tri-sli cooling option, and bitspower doesnt... So.. I guess ill get the CPU and GPU waterblock from bitspower then!

:)

PS: You guys are always very cool, thank you for all your time to answer my "noobish" questions! And as always any input is apreciated!

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Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
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But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
cause you think that being a girl is degrading
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:55 am 
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Hi Kate.

That what el jefe said about different brand is rubbish. You can take (if you want) all the parts from different manufactures. As long as you leave aluminum parts to store.

What is coming to rads. I would take those convection rads and that three slot rad too. And mount that three slot rad to roof so it would suck air from the case. You should block the rear intake and replace those three fans with something quieter. Probably wont need intake fans. On that setup when you are not gaming (using our graphics) you probably can spin those fans really slow.

And when you are building that system. Take care that your water container or similar is easy to access place. Because you have to now and then ad some more water to the system.

What comes to water. You should use distilled water (like car battery water) I think that is distilled in Brazil also. And if you can find some car coolant liquid like glycol it would go well as anti corrosion and it also prevent algae. If you can find new products (often red coloured) take that. It is better. But make sure you never mix that never glycol with old style glycol (often green as color). It will coagulate. If you cant find that anti corrosion/anti freeze stuff from Brazil you can buy something similar from where you buy you water cooling stuff. It's just a bit more expensive.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:42 pm 
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iggy wrote:

...I use the same pump as you do kate, and i am currently using a thermochill pa120.3 with 1 fan on it for cooling.

both my cpu and gpu are quite heavily overclocked, and the cpu sits around 4% over the ambient temperature of the room.

... this will insure that almost all the heat produced by the system is handled by the radiators, of which i plan to install an extra pa120.3.
...
this will allow the entire system to run much cooler. at optimum, the entire system will run only a few degrees bove the temperature of the room. although i personally lack the ability to explain this properly, i suggest you properly research watercooling before you take a dive. overclockers .com has a wealth of well informed and well made articles on the subject.
...
waterblock manufacturers generally have used either copper or aluminium in their construction, however alumunium is in decline as when mixed with copper a galvanic reaction is produced which will erode the aluminium. in an all copper system this does not happen, no matter which manufacter has made the blocks.
...
edit. kate, what radiator are you planning to use? the pump should be more than adequate.


Hello Iggy,

Im sorry, I didnt post a reply right a way! :)

Interesting, you have almost the same setup as I plan to have, however if possible I would like to use the triple radiator to cool everything, but not sure if it will be possible!

Thats exactly what I thought I thought that I should stick with the same material, not same brand!

I plan to use the MCP320-QP which is a triple radiator from Swiftech, along with that, I want to use that fan shroud from Koolance and add all that to the top of my P182!

I already have pretty silent fans, I will use my noctuas with the radiators, hopefully it will be more than enough! :)

I found a very interesting guide about watercooling, >>>HERE<<<. Of course I do not intend to build my own waterblocks, but I found some pretty interesting tips!

If I can use my MCP-350 with a that triple radiator (MCP320-QP)I will be VERY VERY VERY happy, because I really enjoyed the size and the low noise, I even talked to my dad, he said he will make me a support made of inox steel for that pump with silicon rubbers and brushes so when we attach it to the case there will have almost no vibration, so yes, I am very happy!


:) :) :)

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Wear shirts and boots
cause its ok to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 1:50 pm 
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Hello cyberdog,

Ya I got that! :) That was what I had in mind, I knew about the galvanic effect, so ill make sure they are all made of copper! ;)

I bought that corsair watercooling fluid, it was pretty expensive, and it only had that ugly shade of green, i wanted something less "hulk" but well, that was the only thing I found! The store also carried the thermaltake fluid it was a tad cheaper, and it was a nicer colour, but after reading so many bad things about ThermalTake I decided not to buy from that brand!

The intake fans, will be most probably removed or maybe set to runat a very slow speed, just to make sure some air gets inside the case.

I bought the micro reservoir 2 also from Swiftech, I also ordered all the parts needed to refil and to drain the fluid if necessary.

Its very easy to find distilled water in here, the problem would be in the anti-corrosion thing, maybe mixing distilled water with that corsair coolant I bought might be enough!

:)

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Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
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But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
cause you think that being a girl is degrading
But secretly youd love to know what its like
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:22 pm 
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Location: NEW YORK WORD AND STUFF YEAH OK
iggy wrote:
~El~Jefe~ wrote:
Just a BIG tip:

water cooling always has higher temps than air cooling when it comes to the CPU.
Water provides silent stability, it is not "cooler running"


eh? you are talking nonsense mate. under load and idle a good watercooled system will always be cooler.

~El~Jefe~ wrote:
You must stick with the SAME company for all the parts. Differences in metals corrode real bad.
Key is to stick with ONE companies products. OTherwise you have to use a lot of icky old low heat capacity car antifreeze and then run much faster pumps to absorb the heat.


and now you are just talking pure and utter shite. i know you are trying to help, but this is just misinformation.

i currently have waterblocks on my cpu, northbrige and gpu. i use the same pump as you do kate, and i am currently using a thermochill pa120.3 with 1 fan on it for cooling.

both my cpu and gpu are quite heavily overclocked, and the cpu sits around 4% over the ambient temperature of the room.

now, i am planning on further cooling the ram on the graphics card and motherboard, as well as the southbridge. this will insure that almost all the heat produced by the system is handled by the radiators, of which i plan to install an extra pa120.3.

this will allow the entire system to run much cooler. at optimum, the entire system will run only a few degrees bove the temperature of the room. although i personally lack the ability to explain this properly, i suggest you properly research watercooling before you take a dive. overclockers .com has a wealth of well informed and well made articles on the subject.

lastly, mixing products of different companies will not create the effects above. you will not need a 'much faster' pump, nor will you need to add 'a lot of icky old low heat capacity car antifreeze' to the system.

waterblock manufacturers generally have used either copper or aluminium in their construction, however alumunium is in decline as when mixed with copper a galvanic reaction is produced which will erode the aluminium. in an all copper system this does not happen, no matter which manufacter has made the blocks.

on a final note,
i dont often post in these forums, and i knw he was trying to help, but that post was so full of misinformation and plain utter fiction presented as facts, i had to set the record straight.

~El~Jefe~ please at least have some manner of comprehension of a subject before you start giving advice on it.


edit. kate, what radiator are you planning to use? the pump should be more than adequate.


This 1 post wonder is not a wonder at all. the net is full of them. There is no noise from my system in a silent room. I can hear people breathing 20 feet away in another room and that is much louder than my computer and cooling system. I can also have 0 corrosion and many times more cooling capacity with near pure water than antifreeze. There is also no such thing nor garauntee that copper is all the exact same stuff. Unless you test and know each product, you have no idea of the quality of the material. Coatings, purity, etc.

I truly doubt you have silent watercooling knowledge. not quiet watercooling knowledge, or whatever your deaf ears have as that knowledge. You cannot go a few degrees above room temperature on a 24/7 computer and be using a passive radiator, therefore, non silent.

Also, I use an eheim 300 pump. Anything more than that and go google "flow rate" and all that stupid junk from overclocking watercooling forums. They use things like 30% coolant 70% water or even 50/50 at the aweful end of it. No one is using a Eheim 300 pump because their liquid is so low in heat capacity that they compensate using higher flow. you dont need high flow at all if you are very close to running pure water and have large radiators. If you had a lot of experience with mixing components from odds and ends companies, you would notice corrosion if you actually used the proper amount of water and not overcompensated with loads of ineffective anti-freeze.

thank you for your 1 post.

ggthnx


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:30 pm 
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Kate wrote:
Hello cyberdog,

Ya I got that! :) That was what I had in mind, I knew about the galvanic effect, so ill make sure they are all made of copper! ;)

I bought that corsair watercooling fluid, it was pretty expensive, and it only had that ugly shade of green, i wanted something less "hulk" but well, that was the only thing I found! The store also carried the thermaltake fluid it was a tad cheaper, and it was a nicer colour, but after reading so many bad things about ThermalTake I decided not to buy from that brand!

The intake fans, will be most probably removed or maybe set to runat a very slow speed, just to make sure some air gets inside the case.

I bought the micro reservoir 2 also from Swiftech, I also ordered all the parts needed to refil and to drain the fluid if necessary.

Its very easy to find distilled water in here, the problem would be in the anti-corrosion thing, maybe mixing distilled water with that corsair coolant I bought might be enough!

:)


Next time please: Buy store brand or poland spring steam distilled water, buy a bottle of Water Wetter from Redline, and basically you are set for over 2 gallons of fluid.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:16 am 
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still talking shite el jefe. the type of 30% 70% mixes youre talking about is used when people are actively chilling their coolant, so bears absolutely no revelance here.

Quote:
I truly doubt you have silent watercooling knowledge. not quiet watercooling knowledge, or whatever your deaf ears have as that knowledge. You cannot go a few degrees above room temperature on a 24/7 computer and be using a passive radiator, therefore, non silent.


youre just not using a big enough radiator.

Quote:
Also, I use an eheim 300 pump. Anything more than that and go google "flow rate" and all that stupid junk from overclocking watercooling forums.


at no time did i state kate needed a bigger pump. where is this coming from? personally i use a laing ddc 10w running at 5v which cuts vibration down to zero. admittedly there is some fan noise but i plan to solve that by adding a 2nd radiator into the custom radiator enclosure i am currently building which should allow me to run both radiators passively.

Quote:
I can also have 0 corrosion and many times more cooling capacity with near pure water than antifreeze. There is also no such thing nor garauntee that copper is all the exact same stuff. Unless you test and know each product, you have no idea of the quality of the material. Coatings, purity, etc.


all i run in my system is distilled water anyway. you are making assumptions based on nothing here. also mixing any type of copper and/or brass fittings will not produce any significant corrosion.
waterwetter itself has been found to cause significant damage to tubing and plastic elements and has been pretty much dropped in favour of organic sterilising fluids.


thanks for your multiple posts. this clearly means you win at knowledge and you are the winnar of intarnets!!!11


kate, sorry for shitting your thread up but bad advice is bad advice anywhere. id like to ask a mod to clear this up so were not shitting her thread up any further.[quote]


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:48 am 
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Kate wrote:

Its very easy to find distilled water in here, the problem would be in the anti-corrosion thing, maybe mixing distilled water with that corsair coolant I bought might be enough!

:)


That coolant is well enough. What I meant was that you could use those cheaper car stuff instead of expensive computer stuff. But that Corsair Coolant and distilled water is very good stuff.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 7:48 am 
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The toxic nature of coolant keeps me from playing with water cooling.

Are there any non-toxic solutions being used?

Less than a teaspoon of anti freeze can kill a pet.

Are all the water coolers out there recycling there coolants properly or just dumping it into the ground water supply?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:38 am 
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hard to tell. personally i just use distilled water as its cheap and if you flush your system every once in a while it stays clean.

stuff like glycol and waterwetter are heavily toxic and imo shouldnt be used.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 11:03 am 
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Well actually glycol is not that toxic. They use it on airports to keep the planes surface free from ice. They spray it directly to surface...


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 5:16 pm 
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CyberDog,

Ya I kinda trust Corsair, much more than Thermaltake, however I really doubt that the Thermaltake coolant is bad!

I didnt know about fluids, so I just trusted the vendor, I bought the Corsair thing and I would mix with distilled water as per instructions! However, I am still waiting for a few parts before starting my project!

:)

Xan_user,

I didnt know they were THAT toxic! Thank you for advising me Ill make sure my poodle puppy will stay away from it!

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Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
cause its ok to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
cause you think that being a girl is degrading
But secretly youd love to know what its like
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What it feels like for a girl


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