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 Post subject: First time WC build, advice please.
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:54 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:53 pm
Posts: 4
Location: USA
After reading the forum for a couple days and kind of getting hints of what I need here and there I decided it would be best to post and see what sort of response I could get.

I just built a new system with the following specs:

Antec Twelve Hundred Black Steel ATX Full Tower Computer Case
Intel Core 2 Quad Processor Q9650 3.0GHz 1333MHz 12MB LGA775 CPU
G.SKILL 8GB (4 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2000 (PC3 16000) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory
ASUS EAH4870X2/HTDI/2G/A Radeon HD 4870 X2 2GB 512-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card
ASUS Rampage Extreme LGA 775 Intel X48 ATX Intel Motherboard
SAMSUNG 22X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model SH-S223Q
4x Western Digital WD1001FALS 1TB SATA2 7200rpm 32MB Hard Drive (total 3.5 TB in Raid Array)
1x Western Digital VelociRaptor WD1500HLFS 150GB SATA2 10k rpm 16MB Hard Drive (For OS)
Tuniq Tower 120 Universal CPU Cooler 120mm LED Cooling Fan and Fan Controller/Heatsink
NZXT SEN-001LX Sentry LX Aluminum dual bay fan controller
Hiper Type-R II Ultra-Efficient 880W Power Supply - Blue

It currently runs at about 42 - 45 C at idle/minimal use and I have decided that I would prefer to keep it a little cooler and go for WC, plus all the fans in the thing keep sucking up my cats hair. Air cooled it is currently OC to 4.052 GHz.

With the new WC system I would like to cool my CPU, NB, and my GPU on one loop.

So far the products I am thinking of are:

CPU - D-TEK FuZion v2 CPU Block or Swiftec Apogee GTZ (I am leaning towards the GTZ unless someone can give me a convinving reason to go with the D-TEK)

GPU - EK-FC4870 X2 - CF Nickel

NB - Swiftech MCW-NBMAX or Bitspower Black Freezer AIX48NSE (Though I don't think I really need to cool the SB so I am leaning towards the swiftech again unless someone can convince me otherwise)

Radiator - Feser X-Changer Triple 360 mm Extreme Performance Radiator - (Rear external mount) + MCB-120 Radbox

Fans - 3x Scythe "S-FLEXâ„¢" S-FDB 120mm Quiet FAN SFF21G (1900 RPM 75.0 CFM)

Reservoir - EK-BAY SPIN Reservoir - Acetal (Not mounted in a bay, but kept external in a custom built enclosure)

Pump - MCP655 series 12 VDC Pump - Retail with variable speed, not the -b with no speed control

Tubing - Tygon Clear Tubing 1/2 ID or 7/16 OD or 3/8 ID

Coolant - PrimoChill Pure Performance Coolant - Invisible Blue

Both the Pump and the Reservior will be housed in a custome converted external enclosure. Noise is not so much an issue with this system as I am currently running about 7 fans at high speed in my case right now, so I am sure even pumped up the WC system will be quieter than it is now.

I was thinking of looping in the following order:

Res---> Pump ----> CPU ---> NB ---> GPU----> Rad--->

Now come the questions

1) Should I go with 1/2 ID, 7/16 OD, or 3/8 ID tubing, and why? I was thinking 1/2 ID though I am really not 100% positive and I was hoping someone would be able to enlighten me as to which would be best for this set up.

2) Will one radiator be enough or should a second smaller radiator be introduced into the system, possibly between the NB and GPU. If so which radiator. If not is the Feser X-Changer Triple 360 mm a good option for the rad in this system, and will it provide sufficient cooling.

If including a second radiator I am assuming the loop would look like:

Res--->Pump---->CPU--->NB--->Rad(120mm?)--->GPU---->Rad(360mm)--->

3) Due to the set up of the Antec 1200 case the two pre-drilled entrance holes for the Tubing are on the bottom of the case. I am assuming a rad cannot be mounted upside down (though I may be wrong) to allow the tubing direct access to the holes. If this is correct, is their a reliable and sufficiently powerful Rad which has bottom mounted input/output which I could use instead of the Feser, or should I just run the tubing down the outside of the case and into the holes?

4) If a second (smaller) radiator is necessary for the cooling of the case I am pretty positive due to the design of the Antec 1200 that I will be hard pressed to mount the smaller rad internally. Has anyone sucessfully mounted a smaller rad internally on the Antec 1200, and if so where?

5) If anyone has any other recommendations or suggestions which I did not address here feel free to post them up. As I said this is my first WC build so I am a little nervous about doing it wrong, and excited about gaining the knowledge and experience. Any alternative or additional equipment which you would suggest would be greatly appreciated, though will add more confusion to my planning !

6) Last thing, I was thinking of adding either an inline thermometer, or some sort of temp probe in the res/line. Does anyone have any suggestions for an efficient and easy to use inline preferably temp probe?

Thank you and I looked forward to your reponses!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 3:20 pm
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Location: UK
Res ---> Pump ---> Rad ---> CPU ---> NB ---> GPU --->

The pump will heat the water - You want the water cooled before going to the components.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:32 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:21 pm
Posts: 2764
Location: NEW YORK WORD AND STUFF YEAH OK
If you do more than one radiator, you put them next to one another. That's about it. More radiators you have, less fans you need.

Reserator 1 has no fans as the radiator is 2 1/2 feet tall and weighs like 20 lbs or something. You are on the edge of thermal properties. I dont know the weight of that radiator personally. Remember that WC beats the pants off of air cooling so probably is fine.

bigger ID the better. more flow, less asthma. What's the max it can take?? I wouldnt bother exceeding the ID of the inlet holes on the waterblocks.

Why would you want an inline thermometer? besides for fun no real info it can tell you. Unlike air, wc has a maximum range that is harder to go over, but avg temperatures of components is sometimes HIGHER than air cooling.
shrug?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:45 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:53 pm
Posts: 4
Location: USA
Scrapped the thermometer idea, no need. Also I have decided for a MCP355 pump with a XSPC reservoir top.

After a little more research I have also decided for a rear-mount Rad, but my main question now is with cooling the CPU ----> NB -----> 4870x2 (Not Crossfire, just one) do I really need more than 1 Triple fan rad? After looking for a while I am thinking of going for a XSPC RX360, but I have been hearing many different opinions over whether I will need a second Rad.


Won't let me post a link here, but over at the xtremesystems forum there is a thread there (ID number 220593) which has a good test from what I can tell.

It appears that the RX360 can handle a close to 600 watt heat loop pretty reasonably, and since sound isnt an issue I definitely plan on running my fans at full throttle. That being said do I need a second rad? For some reason I cant picture my CPU, GPU, and NB alone generating over 600W of heat.

I quickly used Marlin's Wattage calc for an estimate and it quoted me at 354 for the GPU and the CPU, though I have no idea how reliable that is, so I am not sure how to proceed from here in regards to the Rad/Rads.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:21 pm
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Location: NEW YORK WORD AND STUFF YEAH OK
I couldnt imagine more than 300 watts. 400 would be insane estimation.

water cools really well. the hotter the components, the more it does. as the room temp difference is greater, the water cooling radiators transfer heat faster.

WC is not to keep components cooled to very low temps, its for keeping gaming machines and power machines always temperate at very quiet levels. 24/7 WC setups take a day to even out to stable temps from what I have seen.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:47 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 2:53 pm
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Location: USA
I have changed some of the items around and here is now the semi-final specs for the WC system:


CPU - Heatkiller CPU Rev3.0 775

GPU - EK-FC4870 X2 - CF Nickel

NB - Swiftech MCW-NBMAX

Radiator - Feser X-Changer Triple 360 mm Extreme Performance Radiator - (Rear external mount) or the XSPC RX360 Radiator - Both with MCB-120 Radbox

Fans - 3x Scythe "ULTRA KAZE" 120 x 38 mm Case Fan 3000RPM

Reservoir - XSPC Reservoir top for MCP355

Pump - MCP355 with top from Res

Tubing - Tygon Clear Tubing 7/16 ID 5/8 OD

Fittings -Bitspower Silver Compression Fitting - 7/16" to 5/8" - BP-CPF-CC6

Coolant - Distilled water + PT_Nuke + Feser View Active UV Dye - 50 ml - Clear/UV Blue

I am leaning towards the Feser Rad, but still not sure on that part.

Also anyone actually use the HelixCoils by XSPC which go around your tubing? Are they needed?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:37 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:37 pm
Posts: 127
Location: Oregon, United States
I keep hearing about Marlin's Wattage Calculator... but I don't know where to find it.

Could anyone link me to it? Thanks

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~Asulc~


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:08 pm 
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Location: USA
Here it is: http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 10:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:18 am
Posts: 38
Location: New Zealand
RX360 or Feser 360 with 3000rpm fans is a no no. If you are going to be running your fans at 1800rpm+ go for the higher FPI ( Fins per inch ) rads. Something like the Black Ice® GTX Gen Two Xtreme 360 is far superior at 3000rpm.

Heres a linky to the GTX480 http://martin.skinneelabs.com/HWlabs480GTX-Review.html and http://martin.skinneelabs.com/The-Feser ... eview.html read them both.

It is the 480 but you can see the difference the fan speeds have on them.

XSPC 360
http://skinneelabs.com/Radiators/XSPC/R ... -main.html

GTX360
http://skinneelabs.com/Radiators/HWLabs ... -main.html

Black Ice GTX360 with a 120x38mm 2800rpm can dissipate
15C Delta - 1892w
10C Delta - 1261w
5C Delta - 630w
2C Delta - 252w

XSPC RX360 with a 120x38mm 2800rpm can dissipate
15C Delta - 1257w
10C Delta - 838w
5C Delta - 419w
2C Delta -167w

( Delta is the temperature of water above ambient )
15C Delta would be if you were WC for Silence
10C Delta is average silence vs performance
5C Delta is considered Very High Performance
2C Delta is near impossible to achieve

_________________
Intel C2Q QX6700 460x8 (3.68 Ghz), 2GB Crucial Ballistix PC6400, ABIT IN9 32X-MAX (680i), 2x XFX 8800GTS XXX 640MB SLi, 2x Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320GB (RAID 0), Dell UltraSharp 2707WFP 27" LCD, Cooler Master Stacker 810. Swiftech Apogee GTX, Danger Den 8800GTS WB, Thermochill PA120.3, Laing D5 (MCP655).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2009 10:32 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 2:18 am
Posts: 38
Location: New Zealand
~El~Jefe~ wrote:
bigger ID the better. more flow, less asthma. What's the max it can take?? I wouldnt bother exceeding the ID of the inlet holes on the waterblocks.


The difference in tubing size has been prove to be less than 1C difference.
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=515368

~El~Jefe~ wrote:
I couldnt imagine more than 300 watts. 400 would be insane estimation.


600w seems low for a 360 rad with high speed fans.

~El~Jefe~ wrote:
water cools really well. the hotter the components, the more it does. as the room temp difference is greater, the water cooling radiators transfer heat faster.


Water absorbs heat at the speed the CPU water block can transfer it. All blocks are different in this speed. If the ambient temp was to change it would affect both air or water cooling the same.

~El~Jefe~ wrote:
WC is not to keep components cooled to very low temps, its for keeping gaming machines and power machines always temperate at very quiet levels. 24/7 WC setups take a day to even out to stable temps from what I have seen.


Water keeps you components cooler, most of the time the thing limiting our CPU OC is heat. Water gives us lower temps and sometime if its in the chip a few more Mhz. Water in a small closed loop would take 1-2 hours at most to even out.


El Jefe stop spreading your crap.

_________________
Intel C2Q QX6700 460x8 (3.68 Ghz), 2GB Crucial Ballistix PC6400, ABIT IN9 32X-MAX (680i), 2x XFX 8800GTS XXX 640MB SLi, 2x Seagate Barracuda 7200.10 320GB (RAID 0), Dell UltraSharp 2707WFP 27" LCD, Cooler Master Stacker 810. Swiftech Apogee GTX, Danger Den 8800GTS WB, Thermochill PA120.3, Laing D5 (MCP655).


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