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 Post subject: Single Moving Part PC in Silverstone TJ08
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 11:08 am 
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SMPPC in Silverstone TJ08

note -- Of interest to mini-ITX and other small box system builders is the modded heatpipe heatsink used here.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 12:02 pm 
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Lovely job MikeC and a great article, thanks. Any plans to review the TJ08?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 12:26 pm 
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I did write...

Quote:
It has unimpeded 120mm fan in/out vents, a removable motherboard tray (!), and a very nice aluminum front bezel combined with decent (if a bit thin) steel panel chassis. Very simple straight-up box, looks good, easy to work with, modestly priced.

Is there really much more to say? :lol: :wink:

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 Post subject: Squealing power board?
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 1:19 pm 
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You mentioned electronic squeal. I have personally experienced that with an older DC-DC board from mini-box. My hearing is pretty good, so it really bugged me. I replaced it with a picoPSU, and the squeal was gone. I've never heard a picoPSU squeal at all.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 1:51 pm 
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Regarding the heatsink mod; I've considered a similar adjustment to a Silverstone heatsink I have, the NT06-E. I had abandoned the idea, fearing that pinching the pipes would ruin their effectiveness. Glad to see that it can be done, though I wish I had something to practice on. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 2:43 pm 
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you can also use Rosewill RCX-Z4 (a.k.a. akasa evo 120)


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 Post subject: Re: Squealing power board?
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 2:48 pm 
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Worker control wrote:
You mentioned electronic squeal. I have personally experienced that with an older DC-DC board from mini-box. My hearing is pretty good, so it really bugged me. I replaced it with a picoPSU, and the squeal was gone. I've never heard a picoPSU squeal at all.

It's at so low a level it's not really there at all.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 2:57 pm 
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I think this is where silent computing could be heading. A single very-slow large exhaust fan keeps air flowing slowly, and passive coolers silently take advantage of it. The versatility of HSF heatpipes is good information, and the 120mm food-bin duct cools it effectively (better than a 92mm fan + duct on the HS). That PSU is crazy. Computer hardware really is getting to the point where silent and efficient can get you a very respectable system.

I don't know anything about ATI's hardware, but I'm being told HD 3000 is good for games. I was first impressed by integrated graphics with GMA900, and I'm really happy that integrated graphics is moving forward. I'm uncertain about Intel's plans since I like discrete graphics cards too, but silent efficient and cheap integrated graphics makes building a desktop computer much better.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 4:10 pm 
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nice, and so much more practical than the completely no-moving parts pc you built before.

i'm very impressed by how you managed to bend the heatpipes without kinking them- any tips other than doing it slowly and being extra careful?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 6:12 pm 
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For us non-DIYs, any chance of turning any of these lab PC ideas into a retail version through Anitec?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 8:16 pm 
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whispercat wrote:
For us non-DIYs, any chance of turning any of these lab PC ideas into a retail version through Anitec?

I guess so, depends on their assessment of demand.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 8:25 pm 
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lucas82 wrote:
you can also use Rosewill RCX-Z4 (a.k.a. akasa evo 120)

But it's $50, has only 3 heatpipes. Personally I'd get the $35 Xigmatec direct-touch HDT-D1284 and bend it.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 3:11 am 
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MikeC: May I suggest testing that system with a NinjaII without the fan? The modded HS looks very dandy indeed, but I have found that a similar set up with an undervolted 89W TDP chip and a NinjaII works fanless for me. Add a case fan at any speed to the mix and there is no need to undervolt. My thinking is that a NinjaII should fit that case but wouldn't need any DIY modding to give at least the same effect.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 4:21 am 
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That build is very nice!
The 760G may be discontinued, I don't know anything about that, but there are five other models available here.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 8:13 am 
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Tobias wrote:
MikeC: May I suggest testing that system with a NinjaII without the fan? The modded HS looks very dandy indeed, but I have found that a similar set up with an undervolted 89W TDP chip and a NinjaII works fanless for me. Add a case fan at any speed to the mix and there is no need to undervolt. My thinking is that a NinjaII should fit that case but wouldn't need any DIY modding to give at least the same effect.

I'm sure you're right. As stated in the review, the original case this system was intended for is an Antec nsk1380, which is a breadbox mATX SFF case where the OD cage intrudes into the space over the CPU -- hence the modded heatsink... which was unnecessary in the Silverstone TJ08 but used anyway because it was already there.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 8:15 am 
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Mats wrote:
That build is very nice!
The 760G may be discontinued, I don't know anything about that, but there are five other models available here.

Right, I should have checked more carefully, the MSI board isn't mentioned anywhere at MSI anymore or available anywhere.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 9:48 am 
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Judging from the amount of space you have, I thnk a Scythe Orochi running passive would fit

:)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:02 am 
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Vibrator wrote:
Judging from the amount of space you have, I thnk a Scythe Orochi running passive would fit

:)

Sure but we'd never hang that monster off a board -- only safe on top, imo.

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Last edited by MikeC on Sun May 31, 2009 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 31, 2009 10:05 am 
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MikeC wrote:
Vibrator wrote:
Judging from the amount of space you have, I thnk a Scythe Orochi running passive would fit

:)

Sure but we'd never hang that monster off a board -- only safe on top, imo.


Oh.
What about the Ninja 2 or Mugen 2? (The Mugen 2 uses bolt thru mounting)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:46 am 
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I've a Asus Triton 75, and I think I'm going to unbend it... I was planning on swapping it out for Ninja for better airflow to the rear, but seems more fun and interesting to re-use the Triton as un-bended...

Did you simply bend the heatpipes, or did you warm them up first to make them softer"

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 10:03 am 
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Thomas wrote:
Did you simply bend the heatpipes, or did you warm them up first to make them softer"

I did not warm them up. Just bent with both sides well supported in my hands, and once I could get access to it, the "crook" of the bent portion supported against the padded arm of an office chair. I did it very slowly and did not bend back again to avoid any back/forth action that might break or crack the heatpipe.

With the Triton 75, you probably need to brace the heatpipes midway between the fins and base against a padded or rounded edge so that the heatpipes will not bend right where they meet the base. If they do, once you have the fins at right angle to the base, the pipes might hang too low and interfere with the NB heatsink or some other parts on your motherboard.

If you bend the pipes just where they meet the fins, the end result might be too tall.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 11:59 pm 
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That's very nice. Heatsink after bending reminded Akasa one discontinued heatsinks, unfortunately it wasn't terribly good performer if believing reviews. Single slow rpm fan... Impressive.

Whole price category is slightly different than in high end HTPC set-up with no moving parts, just presented in Muropaketti. But its price was around 1,800€s... Too bad that Coolputer which built it, probably cannot send review sample to SPCR. It would have been nice to see that being reviewed.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 12:03 am 
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MikeC wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Did you simply bend the heatpipes, or did you warm them up first to make them softer"

I did not warm them up. Just bent with both sides well supported in my hands, and once I could get access to it, the "crook" of the bent portion supported against the padded arm of an office chair. I did it very slowly and did not bend back again to avoid any back/forth action that might break or crack the heatpipe.

With the Triton 75, you probably need to brace the heatpipes midway between the fins and base against a padded or rounded edge so that the heatpipes will not bend right where they meet the base. If they do, once you have the fins at right angle to the base, the pipes might hang too low and interfere with the NB heatsink or some other parts on your motherboard.

If you bend the pipes just where they meet the fins, the end result might be too tall.


Thanks, I'll give it a try, hopefully soon :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 2:38 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
Personally I'd get the $35 Xigmatec direct-touch HDT-D1284 and bend it


Whats wrong with just using the 1283 tower heatsink with a longer duct? Seems to me it would be much easier to do with less chance at breaking something.

Also, whats the point of using an AC/DC adapter coupled with a DC/DC converter when they are both inside the pc enclosure? isn't the entire point to move the heat generated through AC to DC conversion be put on the outside of the case? If your going to just keep all the heat inside a case anyhow, wouldn't it be better to just use a good passive ATX powersupply?

I'd also love to see something like this made retail. While im sure you picked the components you did based just on what you had available to you at the time, i think this list would be best:

http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/Publi ... r=11294146

Case: Antec NSK3480 (Thermally Separated PSU region w/ 120mm rear exhaust fan)
PSU: FSP Group Zen 400w
HDD: Intel x25-m 80g
Fan: 120mm Scythe S-Flex 1200rpm w/ zelman fan controller
Heatsink: Xigmatek HDT-S1283 w/ backplate mounting

Add whatever your personal favorite low heat output components you want into it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 02, 2009 8:23 pm 
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Aris wrote:
Whats wrong with just using the 1283 tower heatsink with a longer duct?

Nothing. I've already explained why that particular hs was used.

Quote:
Also, whats the point of using an AC/DC adapter coupled with a DC/DC converter when they are both inside the pc enclosure? isn't the entire point to move the heat generated through AC to DC conversion be put on the outside of the case? If your going to just keep all the heat inside a case anyhow, wouldn't it be better to just use a good passive ATX powersupply?

Most definitely a point.
1) There are almost no fanless PSUs left in production anymore -- the Silverstones are pretty much it. And they're nowhere near as efficient as the PS setup I used, esp at the low idle end.
2) Even tho the power adapter is in the case, it might as well be outside, being next to the huge opening of the PSU exhaust vent.
3) The power and temps I reported speak for themselves

Quote:
I'd also love to see something like this made retail. While im sure you picked the components you did based just on what you had available to you at the time, i think this list would be best:

http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/Publi ... r=11294146

Case: Antec NSK3480 (Thermally Separated PSU region w/ 120mm rear exhaust fan)
PSU: FSP Group Zen 400w
HDD: Intel x25-m 80g
Fan: 120mm Scythe S-Flex 1200rpm w/ zelman fan controller
Heatsink: Xigmatek HDT-S1283 w/ backplate mounting

Add whatever your personal favorite low heat output components you want into it.

Nope, your components would not work as well. PSU -- already commented on -- much lower efficiency at the power levels of the system -- and way overkill. I'm surprised it is still available at newegg -- it's not anywhere else. That case is not as well suited for super low airlfow -- the intake is more restricted, and I think it will make a difference. The PSU opening in my system is also a significant factor in keeping all the components cooler.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:33 am 
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MikeC wrote:
With the Triton 75, you probably need to brace the heatpipes midway between the fins and base against a padded or rounded edge so that the heatpipes will not bend right where they meet the base. If they do, once you have the fins at right angle to the base, the pipes might hang too low and interfere with the NB heatsink or some other parts on your motherboard.


I just did this, and it works flawlessly :D

The hardest part was that I was a little nervous - but once I recognised I had the stock cooler as a backup, it was just go for it.

I'm suprised how easy it was. I simply used my hands for bending. The heatpipes are quite soft. So now it's perfectly located right in front of my exhaust fan in my P180 and now I can achieve the same results with one fan less 8)

I think this solution challenges the Ninja: No ducting needed, and ligther and cheaper too.

Thanks for sharing that great idea.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 05, 2009 9:27 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
Nope, your components would not work as well. PSU -- already commented on -- much lower efficiency at the power levels of the system -- and way overkill. I'm surprised it is still available at newegg -- it's not anywhere else. That case is not as well suited for super low airlfow -- the intake is more restricted, and I think it will make a difference. The PSU opening in my system is also a significant factor in keeping all the components cooler.


Well the case i chose has a thermally separated PSU zone, so it wont matter that the passive PSU i picked isnt as effecient since it wont effect the rest of the PC components. Also the case i picked has a huge vent located just above the PSU so the PSU wont overheat either.

As for lack of intake, i was actually thinking of using the 120mm rear exhaust fan location as an intake fan. Since the system is only going to have 1 fan, the only thing that really needs cooling is the CPU if your using low power or onboard graphics. So then there would be zero airflow issues.

Also it would be much more "standard" for a mass market deal. Its a hard sell to resellers to leave a giant hole in the back of the case where the power supply is supposed to be with an AC/DC brick zip tied inside the case. If you want to get something like this sold as a pre-made from a pc building company you need to use more standard PC parts, like an ATX power supply and a CPU heatsink that doesnt need to be hand bent to work properly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:21 am 
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Aris --

1) I'm not trying to get anyone to build this PC for the retail market. That's your consideration, not mine.

2) For my app, the lower power draw is very important -- the difference could be as much as 10W between this setup and a conventional fanless PSU rated at 4~500W. For a PC that is pretty much on 24/7, this is important to me. In fact, the similar SPCR Audio PC built last summer in an Antec 3480w/ a Silverstone 300W fanless PSU, despite its lower 45W TDP A64 X2 4850E, idles at 38W AC -- just shy of 10W higher.

3) If you blow in from the back panel, where does it exhaust? Imo, it's better in an Antec 3480 just to have the fan on the HS blowing towards the rear opening -- if you want lower CPU cooling w/ a standard tower HS and just one fan in the system.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:38 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
3) If you blow in from the back panel, where does it exhaust?


Not trying to argue with you, just trying to figure out how you come to your conclusions.

Does it matter where it exhausts as long as it does? If you really cared that much about where exactly it leaves the case, you could duct the inside of the chamber to force the air out where you want. Like say the vents near the VGA card for better temps on a dedicated video card.

I guess i just don't understand why it matters where the air exhausts. Even if you didn't duct anything at all, with the CPU heatsink right in front of the 120mm fan the main heat producing component will always get great cooling.

Also with only an intake fan you could more easily set up a filtered air system for the case. I know not many people care about filtration, but it is a concern for some.

I suppose you could do like you say and just have a fan on the heatsink blowing towards the exhaust grill on the back, but then you'll have some heat recirculating back into the enclosure.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:20 am 
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Small typo on page 3. "The space belw that is used to stuff some wires."


Excelent artical. It's surprising just how much power you save by using an 80W AC converter. After all, an extra 10 watt is an extra ~35%!

I should add... my 65w athlon X2 runs hotter with the stock AMD cooler! And that's with a PSU taking the heat out.


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