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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:45 am 
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Wether God exists or not, is not our choice. All we can do is choose wether we believe God or not. God will believe in us.

And do sound more smart than I actually am, I'll post few quote's I like from men who could think out of the box and challenge mainstream believes of "truths"

"The irrationality of a thing is not an argument of its existence, rather, a condition of it." - Friedrich Nietzsche

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world." - Albert Einstein


Live well, respect your fellow human being and their believes, love your closed ones and treat every person with respect and dignity, as every human being deserves that and stand by your principles.

Its already seen that all religions have failed their ultimate goal, but that is human's fault. God only asked faith, not religions. Religions were made by human beings who wanted to gain power in the name of God. Religions have too much power and in the years it has corrupted every religion.

... and yes, I am so called Believer as I believe in New Testament, its teachings and such. I just don't like religions. Faith, relationship between man and God is private and should be kept that way. Nobody should come to you and say how you should believe or think.

And my today's question for God is: Why did you wanted Jerusalem as your own city?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 12:53 pm 
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Quote:
Wether God exists or not, is not our choice. All we can do is choose wether we believe God or not.


Not really, for most of us it was imprinted at an early age, just like the easter bunny, father christmas, and fairies, but later in life we were told that they were not real, but made up by humans. The longer we (humans) put off losing the sad belief in something made up by our unknowing prdecessors the better. Personally, I belive it is our choice as to whether God made us or whether our parents did (or the milkman if you are rather suspicious that you are good looking and your dad is really ugly). I chose that I was not made (created) by a celestial dictator, and that god (very likely) does not exist, so the whole concept of it not being our choice is very presumtious (did I mention the word dictator - think about that in relation to your sentence, I am right arent I, I chose not to live under a dictator, I reject that concept 100%

Quote:
God will believe in us.


Well that is true if you believe in god, and that god actually has a special purpose put aside for you specifically, which I assume you are under the delusion that he does.

Quote:
"The irrationality of a thing is not an argument of its existence, rather, a condition of it."


"A pair of powerful spectacles has sometimes sufficed to cure a person in love." - Friedrich Nietzsche

I suggest that you read a rational book about religion, they could be the powerful spectacles that set you free.

Quote:
"Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world."


Quote:
Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school.


Maybe its time you forgot what you learned at school, and got educated ;) (that is a metaphor, please read my last sentence).

We can all find a quote that suits our fancy, but that is not admitting that there is a problem (religious people can not think 100% clearly, as has been illustrated by your first swentence), and that is that some people have been (lovingly) brainwashed, it is not wrong to seek a different education, to ask questions that are forbidden, or even to question authority, so why not simply give it a go (unless you are muslim and fear being murdered for it).

Quote:
Live well, respect your fellow human being


I intend to thank you, and the same to you. I respect all fellow humans to a degree, but that degree differs greatly, the vast majority of respect deserves to be earned, and I hope that other people agree that I must earn my respect with them, and they dont just hand it out regardless.

Quote:
and their beliefs


I give your beliefs (as in religious) no more respect than the choice of shirt you wore to work today (read back a page or 2 for other wonderful descriptions I gave of how much I respect others religious beliefs).

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love your closed ones


I do, most of the time.

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and treat every person with respect and dignityand treat every person with respect and dignity


Certainly not, some people simply dont deserve it, my next door neighbours have (had) a pet cat, that was not allowed indoors, that the children were shunned away from (when they were looking), yet they still fed it - I have not seen that miseral animal (or the cat) for a couple of months, I hope that nice friendly animal has found a much nicer home, but you say to treat EVERY person with repect and dignity, that is where some of the ridiculous crap from your holy book gives you discredit. I pity that cat, I do not respect its previous owners, and they have little dignity left in my opinion - but the book (as it were) is not closed, they can earn their respect back with me, but I doubt that cat will ever respect them again (If it is still alive, I hope it has a nice home, and is not foraging for scraps, and hunting in freezing weather).

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and stand by your principles.


Oh I do, but you can see that.

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Its already seen that all religions have failed their ultimate goal, but that is human's fault.


Please explain the ultimate goal, I have not heard of that, or rather I have not heard of your version of your religions ultimate goal.

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God only asked faith, not religions.


You mean the creator of God asked for faith, and where does that come from - religious people.

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Religions were made by human beings who wanted to gain power in the name of God.


I am really glad there is something in your post that we do agree on :)

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Religions have too much power and in the years it has corrupted every religion.


I am very glad indeed that there are 2 thing that we agree on, take the corruption of religion part of that, the bible got an ancient photoshop makeover hundreds of years ago (several times), but the reader, and the person who listens to the preacher rarely ever sees that.

Religion corrupts, religion even corrupts itself, you only need to look at some of the parts that were removed because they did not send the "right" message, look at the parts that were added by another hand hundreds of years later, some are very memorable - "Let ye who has never sinned cast the first stone" for example. Religion is "designed" by humans to manipulate - God is a moot point, I can no more prove that God does not exist than I can fairies do not exist.

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... and yes, I am so called Believer as I believe in New Testament, its teachings and such.


Do you also believe in the old testament, and that the earth is only 6,000 years old, a mere 4,000 years later than the invention of the wheel.?

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I just don't like religions.


Snap.

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Faith, relationship between man and God is private and should be kept that way.


3 things we agree on.

The fact that you do have and I dont need an invisible means of support is at the least worth knowing (for both of us).

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Nobody should come to you and say how you should believe or think.


Except in this discussion, you can tell me whatever you think that I should believe, I wont take offence due to the subject in question, and I hope to share with you my beliefs.

Quote:
And my today's question for God is: Why did you wanted Jerusalem as your own city?


Well, of all of the dumps on the earth at that time, why not pick somewhere in the far east to show yourself, they already had many inventions, an early enlightenment, understood far more about medicine etc etc, why pick that place - of course, they already had their OWN gods, so the people of the middle east had (yet another) God.

More specifically why did this God of yours create 3 religions in the same place that all despise on another, and have been brutally murdering each other for thousands of years. God you are a bastard, why did you not just keep the original religion, you smote many, you sacraficed your son to create a religion that hated the first, you are some piece of malicious work, your father would be rolling over in his grave at what you have done, you should have listened to your mother, you know she is always right, especially when she disagrees with your father.

Thats my message of the day to that hate filled murderous bastard who enjoys watching the millions that he has created in his image suffer, if he existed), no doubt he reads SPCR's forums, or just read the thoughts straight out of my mind.


Andy

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 10:21 pm 
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Well first of all I believe we can ask God questions and get answers but sometimes not how we want etc etc.... but going with the theme.

I would ask him why he created Man and Woman knowing they would sin and fall away from his Holiness and knowing that some people would not repent and turn from their sins and turn to him and ultimately choose their fate in Hell which the Bible describes as burning in a lake of fire forever.

The thought of that is horrible. lake of fire forever... and ever... and ever... not even 100 year or 1,000 years or 1 millions years.... forever! Ouch! Him knowing all things from the beginning, knowing man would sin, knowing he would send his sinless perfect Son Jesus to die a sinners death on a wooden cross... Why even make man with the capability of sinning? Why give free will? Why make man and Woman!?

The bible says God IS love and we see that demonstrated in his Son Jesus who also said "I am God" because he is in the Father and vis versa. And the bible also says that he would have died on the cross if it was only for one sinner.

SO then why oh why oh why oh why make man and women because alot of us are going to hell according to ???

So my question in that thought pattern is ...

Why do any of it? Omnipotent Omnipresent... doesnt need anything... WHY make MAN?!

Get my drift..

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 2:48 am 
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Quote:
I would ask him why he created Man and Woman knowing they would sin and fall away from his Holiness and knowing that some people would not repent and turn from their sins and turn to him and ultimately choose their fate in Hell which the Bible describes as burning in a lake of fire forever.


Thants an interesting problem you have there, Hell was invented by Jesus, not God. Therefore God would not have known that if his created creatures were bad they would go to hell, where did they go before JC created Hell.???

Quote:
Why even make man with the capability of sinning? Why give free will? Why make man and Woman!?


Because they were not made at all, for the enlightened it is obvious, for others, you need a re-education on the planet you live on and your fellow creatures that have/do live there.

Quote:
The bible says God IS love and we see that demonstrated in his Son Jesus who also said "I am God" because he is in the Father and vis versa.


Does that also make Kim Jong-Il God.?

Quote:
And the bible also says that he would have died on the cross if it was only for one sinner.


Thats pretty pathetic really, but the guy did seemingly have a death wish, he could have several times got away, he actually WANTED to die. But he did not do it for me, for his suicide he gets no thanks from me.

Quote:
SO then why oh why oh why oh why make man and women because alot of us are going to hell according to ???


Many people have asked that very question, and the answer is obvious to anyone who does not believe in God.

Quote:
So my question in that thought pattern is ...

Why do any of it? Omnipotent Omnipresent... doesnt need anything... WHY make MAN?!

Get my drift..


I hope I do, your thought pattern is heading in the right way, if you cant make the leap straight from religion to athiesm on your own, there are some very good books that will help you free from your shackles.


Andy

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 11:38 am 
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andyb wrote:
Not really, for most of us it was imprinted at an early age, just like the easter bunny, father christmas, and fairies, but later in life we were told that they were not real, but made up by humans. The longer we (humans) put off losing the sad belief in something made up by our unknowing prdecessors the better. Personally, I belive it is our choice as to whether God made us or whether our parents did (or the milkman if you are rather suspicious that you are good looking and your dad is really ugly). I chose that I was not made (created) by a celestial dictator, and that god (very likely) does not exist, so the whole concept of it not being our choice is very presumtious (did I mention the word dictator - think about that in relation to your sentence, I am right arent I, I chose not to live under a dictator, I reject that concept 100%


We all have choice. If guy puts gun on your head and tells you to do something, you cannot say you don't have choice. Of course you have choice. Either obey or not to. Saying you don't have have choice, you're wrong. Everyone have some point given choice wether they believe, how to believe and question their believe. Everyone get's that choice. Now sometimes making a choice can mean between life and death, but you still have choice. Man makes his own destiny and is responsible from his own actions and only his actions in the eyes of God.


Quote:
Well that is true if you believe in god, and that god actually has a special purpose put aside for you specifically, which I assume you are under the delusion that he does.
And god loves you very much and has also special plan for you, like everyone of his children's... If children's choose to listen him.


Quote:
I suggest that you read a rational book about religion, they could be the powerful spectacles that set you free.
Religion is not rational thing, so how a rational book can rationalize irrational thing? It cannot and asking to read a rationalize book from irrational thing. I've read what Marx has said about religion. I concur some of his points. I've read everything from Platon to Kirkekaard and such. Reading about other peoples philosophies is nice but I rather make my own philosophy and live according my own way. Quote's are nice but only if they can make you think. And if you wear wrong spectacles, too powerful or too weak you just see nothing but blur.


Quote:
Education is what remains after one has forgotten what one has learned in school.
Work teaches the worker, so say the old people.
Quote:
Maybe its time you forgot what you learned at school, and got educated ;) (that is a metaphor, please read my last sentence).

I already got educated... various things... and I am still learning new things everyday even my brain is degrading older I get, faster it degrades. But if I have to choose between my brains and my heart, I rather choose heart and be retarded person with kindness than world smartest person without kindness.


Quote:
I intend to thank you, and the same to you. I respect all fellow humans to a degree, but that degree differs greatly, the vast majority of respect deserves to be earned, and I hope that other people agree that I must earn my respect with them, and they dont just hand it out regardless.
And that handing our regardless is problem of todays cynical, work and success orientanted world. Little kindness doesn't cost much but it can do miracles when handing out to other people. Strangers or closed ones.


Quote:
I give your beliefs (as in religious) no more respect than the choice of shirt you wore to work today (read back a page or 2 for other wonderful descriptions I gave of how much I respect others religious beliefs).
But question is do you give more respect known atheist as he shares your views than you do believer?


Quote:
Certainly not, some people simply dont deserve it, my next door neighbours have (had) a pet cat, that was not allowed indoors, that the children were shunned away from (when they were looking), yet they still fed it - I have not seen that miseral animal (or the cat) for a couple of months, I hope that nice friendly animal has found a much nicer home, but you say to treat EVERY person with repect and dignity, that is where some of the ridiculous crap from your holy book gives you discredit. I pity that cat, I do not respect its previous owners, and they have little dignity left in my opinion - but the book (as it were) is not closed, they can earn their respect back with me, but I doubt that cat will ever respect them again (If it is still alive, I hope it has a nice home, and is not foraging for scraps, and hunting in freezing weather).


All people deserve being respected as human beings. We're not judges, we're not jury and we're certainly should not ever be executioners. Saying some people deserve treated with respect and other's do not is showing double standards.


Quote:
Oh I do, but you can see that.

Yes and you can see my principles too... same way you can see wind. You cannot see wind but you can see leaves dancing in the wind, dust that wind has blown and carries and trees and grass bending it. Same way with my principles. You can see it when you can see its effects. People see what they want to see. Terry Pratchett has pointed this well when it comes to Death's horse. the Horsey... And sometimes blind can see more than men with perfect vision.


Quote:
Please explain the ultimate goal, I have not heard of that, or rather I have not heard of your version of your religions ultimate goal.
Now that depends. Jewish failed to bring God's teacvhing to heathen's 2,000 years ago. Christian's have failed the teachings of Christ, especially the double commadment of Love, as you can see from the world. Islam has devolved beyond what it was when it was created. For centuries Islam was beakon of light in civilization, architechture, mathemtics, invention and litreature... Not anymore. The inner fight of finding yourself and your true self, battling your inner demons, the Jihad has become holy war against those who do not share your point of view. Fellow muslim or not... Well actually Buddhist and Hindu's have not failed their religious point that badly since they just wait enlightment and then assimilation to oblivion or re-incarnation and cyclic destruction of universe.

Quote:
Do you also believe in the old testament, and that the earth is only 6,000 years old, a mere 4,000 years later than the invention of the wheel.?
Nope. I blieve Earth is billions of years old but I also believe followign things: In God created man twice. First in his own image and then bit later its said again and God created man. So humanity might be older than 6000 years but believing man is around 6000 years which could be trasnlated for "2nd creation of man". And God's time is not working like ours. A blink of God is thousand years for man and year for God is mere second for the man. Time is necessary unit only aslong man is mortal.


Quote:
Except in this discussion, you can tell me whatever you think that I should believe, I wont take offence due to the subject in question, and I hope to share with you my beliefs.
I have no problem of your believes. You have made your choice and that is fine. Man is only responsible for his own salvation, not anyone elses. So force convertions are always wrong. If person is to believe, the belief comes with-in. Forcing is always wrong, always. You can believe what ever you want and it won't offend me. If I am offended by your believes, then I am bad christian. I am honored to share some of your believes while we retain some of our own opposite believes.

Alright God another question now bit more harder: What is your take on rabbi Yeshua Ben Yussuf and his teachings?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:19 pm 
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Quote:
We all have choice. If guy puts gun on your head and tells you to do something, you cannot say you don't have choice. Of course you have choice. Either obey or not to. Saying you don't have have choice, you're wrong. Everyone have some point given choice wether they believe, how to believe and question their believe. Everyone get's that choice. Now sometimes making a choice can mean between life and death, but you still have choice. Man makes his own destiny and is responsible from his own actions and only his actions in the eyes of God.


This is one of my main issues with religion, every single child born is born athiest, but they are branded by their religious parents with the mark of their religion, and nearly always end up believing in that religion. This I believe is wrong, the child never got the choice, they were marked from birth, and usually find it difficult to remove that mark in later life as it has been imprinted from such a young age.

If someone is brought up without that brand by athiest parents and then chooses to become religious they have 2 major advantages from the child that was branded from birth. 1, they have made a choice of their own free will, they have not had the concept forced upon them, 2, they get to choose the religion of their choice.

Quote:
And god loves you very much and has also special plan for you, like everyone of his children's... If children's choose to listen him.


As above, most done even get the choice.

Quote:
Religion is not rational thing, so how a rational book can rationalize irrational thing?


In the same way that other non-rational things can be rationalised, and often are unless superstition gets in the way.

Take for example a string of seeming random event that leads to something good/bad happening to someone, it seems so irational to think that event happened to that person without them having any involvment. People try to rationalise such things, such as if they didnt forget something and then had to go back to their house that good/bad event would have happened to someone else (or non-one), the supersticious would blame the devil, or god, or someone else, or themselves.

Everything can be rationalised to some degree, even the seemingly totally irrational.

Quote:
Work teaches the worker, so say the old people.


Absolutely it does, as the person who chooses my staff, I dont care in the slightest about whether someone left university 6-months into it, I care whether that person can do the job. Some people believe in formal education, and bits of paper with a name and a grade on it more than anything else, even though they have never done any actual work. So who would I choose to babysit my children (if I had any), would it be the person who has had a formal education in childcare and lots of certificates and a police check, or would it be my next door neighbour (different neighbour to the one I obviously dont respect), who has actually had children and looked after them, the neighbour wins.

Quote:
I already got educated... various things... and I am still learning new things everyday even my brain is degrading older I get, faster it degrades. But if I have to choose between my brains and my heart, I rather choose heart and be retarded person with kindness than world smartest person without kindness.


I would rather have both, and I dont know of a single heartless athiest, they have all of the same good morals as any religious person, but dont have some of the bad moral that some religious people have.

Quote:
And that handing our regardless is problem of todays cynical, work and success orientanted world.


To a certain extent you are right, but the other extreme is just as bad, a sensible middle ground can easily be found, and religion does not need to be involved at all.

Quote:
Little kindness doesn't cost much but it can do miracles when handing out to other people.


I totally agree, I carried an old lady's shopping trolley down a long flight of steps on Monday, I did that because it was the right thing to do, I simply could not watch her wheel it down a single step at a time. In the future when I am old, I hope someone will do me such a favour, and I done expect them to religious to do it.

Quote:
But question is do you give more respect known atheist as he shares your views than you do believer?


Absolutely, but not for any reason other than simple kinship, people do such things all of the time, even if they dont realise they are doing it. If someone is at a sporting event, they are more likely to talk with a supporter of the same team, people also tend to speak to other people of the same race, and the same language spoken, and the same style of clothes worn, or the same music interest. Whether it is the right thing or not is irrelevant, it is programmed into each one of us, and we all do those things and most people dont even know it.

Quote:
All people deserve being respected as human beings.


Absolutely not, do you respect Hitler, or the guy in the link below.?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8416672.stm

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We're not judges, we're not jury and we're certainly should not ever be executioners.


Why not (less so the executioner).?

Quote:
Saying some people deserve treated with respect and other's do not is showing double standards.


Again, Hitler, and Tobin, are you saying they deserve to be treated with the same respect as someone else.?

Quote:
Yes and you can see my principles too... same way you can see wind. You cannot see wind but you can see leaves dancing in the wind, dust that wind has blown and carries and trees and grass bending it. Same way with my principles. You can see it when you can see its effects. People see what they want to see. Terry Pratchett has pointed this well when it comes to Death's horse. the Horsey... And sometimes blind can see more than men with perfect vision.


I follow your point vaugely, but I still dont see that all (any) of the goodness has come from your religious beliefs.

Quote:
Now that depends. Jewish failed to bring God's teacvhing to heathen's 2,000 years ago. Christian's have failed the teachings of Christ, especially the double commadment of Love, as you can see from the world. Islam has devolved beyond what it was when it was created. For centuries Islam was beakon of light in civilization, architechture, mathemtics, invention and litreature... Not anymore. The inner fight of finding yourself and your true self, battling your inner demons, the Jihad has become holy war against those who do not share your point of view. Fellow muslim or not... Well actually Buddhist and Hindu's have not failed their religious point that badly since they just wait enlightment and then assimilation to oblivion or re-incarnation and cyclic destruction of universe.


I think I missed the part where you tell me the ultimate goal of "your" religion, or was that the "double commadment of Love".?

Quote:
Nope. I blieve Earth is billions of years old but I also believe followign things: In God created man twice. First in his own image and then bit later its said again and God created man. So humanity might be older than 6000 years but believing man is around 6000 years which could be trasnlated for "2nd creation of man". And God's time is not working like ours.


Thats bizarre.

If I understand you correctly, all of the religious (and non religious) people that existed before 6,000 years ago are the result of evolution, and at the 6,000 year ago point God created some identical people. Whats your concept on all of thepeople in the world that evolved up until the 6,000 year ago point, but have never believed in any of the religions of the middle east, were they then created by god and also happen to be identical to their otherwise evolved comrades. That whole concept has realy confused me, I have never met anyone who believe is both evolution going back hundreds of millions of years AND creationism of man 6,000 years ago.

Quote:
Man is only responsible for his own salvation, not anyone elses.


Well I dont intend or expect to have any form of salvation, and as you have pointed out that is my responsibility and choice, so we will leave that point there.

Quote:
So force convertions are always wrong. If person is to believe, the belief comes with-in. Forcing is always wrong, always.


I agree, with which I point you back to the top of my post, force conversions of small children from athiesm to their parents religion with no choice or option.

Quote:
Alright God another question now bit more harder: What is your take on rabbi Yeshua Ben Yussuf and his teachings?


I had no idea who he was until I read a few of his quotes with some disection of what they mean.

He doesnt seem that different from many of the other characters of the book in some respects, but some of his quotes seem to suggest that he was a power monger, and two-faced. But I really have not read much of the words that are associated with his name so I might be way off target.


Andy

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 3:31 pm 
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andyb wrote:
This is one of my main issues with religion, every single child born is born athiest, but they are branded by their religious parents with the mark of their religion, and nearly always end up believing in that religion. This I believe is wrong, the child never got the choice, they were marked from birth, and usually find it difficult to remove that mark in later life as it has been imprinted from such a young age.

Now, now... Let us not make assumption that all children are born in atheists as we cannot verify that unbiasly. I am against all generilization. That is just your assumption, I humply diasgree you with that. I believe all human beings have inborn need to believe in something. Atheistm is believing there's no such thing as God and believing in man's logic / reason and there's no afterlife, salvation, damnation anything but darkness and bag of worms making dirt out of you. Now that choice what do we believe guides and makes us what we are.

If someone is brought up without that brand by athiest parents and then chooses to become religious they have 2 major advantages from the child that was branded from birth. 1, they have made a choice of their own free will, they have not had the concept forced upon them, 2, they get to choose the religion of their choice.



Quote:
In the same way that other non-rational things can be rationalised, and often are unless superstition gets in the way.

Take for example a string of seeming random event that leads to something good/bad happening to someone, it seems so irational to think that event happened to that person without them having any involvment. People try to rationalise such things, such as if they didnt forget something and then had to go back to their house that good/bad event would have happened to someone else (or non-one), the supersticious would blame the devil, or god, or someone else, or themselves.

Everything can be rationalised to some degree, even the seemingly totally irrational.


Indeed everything can be rationalized but it still doesn't make it true, fact or right, even its rationalized. I am sure nazi's really well rationalized why jews and gypsies had do go in concentration camps. I am pretty sure someone could do very fine and logical explanation with rock solid logic. It still doesn't make it anymore acceptable. I believe in doctor Houses words. "If you could have rationalize conversations with religious people, there would be no religion". But that doesn't mean anything that can be rationalized, should be rationalized or that when its rationalized is then absolute truth. Some say truth is 2 edged sword, some say its 3 edged sword and some say 50 pound jack hammer hitting back of your head.

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Absolutely it does, as the person who chooses my staff, I dont care in the slightest about whether someone left university 6-months into it, I care whether that person can do the job. Some people believe in formal education, and bits of paper with a name and a grade on it more than anything else, even though they have never done any actual work. So who would I choose to babysit my children (if I had any), would it be the person who has had a formal education in childcare and lots of certificates and a police check, or would it be my next door neighbour (different neighbour to the one I obviously dont respect), who has actually had children and looked after them, the neighbour wins.


Yet formal education doesn't quarantee that person actually knows what his diploma say he should be able to do... Put person in work and look the results. We still need to have little bit faith in our fellow man or then we could just well call Obama and say: "press the button in that suit case following you everywhere".

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I would rather have both, and I dont know of a single heartless athiest, they have all of the same good morals as any religious person, but dont have some of the bad moral that some religious people have.
Morals you are reffering are based on judeo-christian hocus-pocus as some atheist said.

As those of us who enjoy history can also read about crimes Khmer Rogues did when their pursued their Atheist and communistic idiology in building their dream nation without money and based on communistic idiology which was fiercly atheist.

Atheists and religious people both can do as horrible things when they are fanatics. Not all fanatics believe in God or gods. But all fanatics are wrong. Especially those are ready to kill those who do not share their views.

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To a certain extent you are right, but the other extreme is just as bad, a sensible middle ground can easily be found, and religion does not need to be involved at all.
Indeed as there is no need also for compulsory denial of God's existance aswell. Religions are corrupted. We also should remove politics from science as we removed religion from politics. All estremists are wrong, no matter what they say, since extremist cannot negotiate nor they cannot find compromise.


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I totally agree, I carried an old lady's shopping trolley down a long flight of steps on Monday, I did that because it was the right thing to do, I simply could not watch her wheel it down a single step at a time. In the future when I am old, I hope someone will do me such a favour, and I done expect them to religious to do it.

Morals is very intresting thing as they vary so much based on country and time. For ancient time's it was perfectly morally to sacrifice your first born by Burning him or Her in the fire for Ba'al. In other society it was perfectly normal you to behead lower level peasant if you wanted to test your new sword.

Moral is what our parents and people who teaches us while we grow say is acceptable and what is not. Moral itself is tied to society, societys history, culture and such. Good moral is based on your view. Since we share same cultural view, we agree upon this that your action was morally good.

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Absolutely, but not for any reason other than simple kinship, people do such things all of the time, even if they dont realise they are doing it. If someone is at a sporting event, they are more likely to talk with a supporter of the same team, people also tend to speak to other people of the same race, and the same language spoken, and the same style of clothes worn, or the same music interest. Whether it is the right thing or not is irrelevant, it is programmed into each one of us, and we all do those things and most people dont even know it.

True about kinship. But still, having two sets or rules and stadards, wether unconsciously or not is still having double standards. Wether its natural behaviour doesn't change what it is.

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Absolutely not, do you respect Hitler, or the guy in the link below.?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8416672.stm

Hitler was human being, was he not? Tobin is human being is he not? We do not need approve, nor accept the horrible things people do. Nor we do not need like them. We can say they did wrong things and horrible things, but they are still human beings and should be treated as the basic dignity human being deserves. I was taught forgiving. I forgave person who murdered my father. I forgave Nazi's who were responsible decimation of my fathers family line in Romania and near by area's during WWII. Son of jew or Son of gypsy. Revenge has never solved problems. And eye for an eye and tooth for an tooth, all world would be blind and toothless... Only way to stop wars and violence is to be one who stops. Mahathma Gandhi did show what passive resistance could do. And I love what he said: "I like your Christ but I don't like your christians, because they are so unlike your Christ". He nailed it...

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Why not (less so the executioner).?

Because revenge is always wrong... human is only species known to kill for revenge or for satisfaction or for sadist pleasure. Most other animals just kill for food or for self defence.

Killing in revenge is merely obeying our bloodlust. Human's should pursue better than simply obeying their instincs and strong negative emotions. And what good does killing more do? It doesn not bring back those were killed. It does not make world better place, it does not cure diseases nor end wars. And if you kill for revenge, there are good changes that you feel so hollow afterwards.

When fighting against monster's beware that you do not turn into one... if we kill the killer, are we better than killer was? I think not. One murder does not make other any more better or more rightous.

Death sentence can make sense but is it morally ok? That depends on your culture but in my faith there's no justification for death penalty. Maybe I once was for it. But it does not change anything its just making another wrong thing to fix one wrong thing.
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Again, Hitler, and Tobin, are you saying they deserve to be treated with the same respect as someone else.?
They are humans are they not? They need to be respected as any human being as human beings while we do not approve their actions and condemn them as wrong actions. But they still were and are humans.

We should punish criminals according our laws. But that doesn't mean we should stop respecting human life. Human and human life is always worth of respecting for.

God condemns people how they deserve it. Nobody escapes that. That is my faith, that's why I don't need to judge people nor I should, since I am not wise enough to judge people.
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I follow your point vaugely, but I still dont see that all (any) of the goodness has come from your religious beliefs.

We see what we want to see. I am not political influence so my influece is very small. But what good has my religious belief generally done? What good has Mother Teresa's religious believes done? Or Martin Luther King Jr's believes? What good did atheistic believes on Khmer Rogues did? It is not the belief that right or wrong, its is defined by people who act under that belief. Belief is like an knife. It can be used as good, save live, build things, do good of user so wish. Or it can be used evil, take a life or threat people if bearer so wish. Its not the knife that is good or evil. Its the user. Same goes people and their believes. Any belief can be used for good for evil. That is upto person how he acts.

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I think I missed the part where you tell me the ultimate goal of "your" religion, or was that the "double commadment of Love".?

What is my ultimate goal of my faith? I don't have own religion. My ultimate goal is that I can look myself from the mirror without feeling shame.

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Thats bizarre.

If I understand you correctly, all of the religious (and non religious) people that existed before 6,000 years ago are the result of evolution, and at the 6,000 year ago point God created some identical people. Whats your concept on all of thepeople in the world that evolved up until the 6,000 year ago point, but have never believed in any of the religions of the middle east, were they then created by god and also happen to be identical to their otherwise evolved comrades. That whole concept has realy confused me, I have never met anyone who believe is both evolution going back hundreds of millions of years AND creationism of man 6,000 years ago.

Don't take all literally... You know what metaphora is. Re-creation is not always phsycial re-creation but more like spirtual re-creation when Creator God, God of Abraham, lord Thy God, Lord Sebaot revealed himself to Israelite's and Old Testament was born. If we go beyond that we do more Van Däniken's world though. I haven't yet fully comprihend my belief that much as that part is irrelevant. To me God who created all exists and man had 2nd spirtual re-creation around 6,000 but I haven't yet found out clues was that 6,000 years our years or something else. As we all who have read Bible do know that time is... well complex thing as how human experiences time is not way God experiences time. A super-string theories could explain this combined with multiverse theories and idea of multiple paralel dimensions existing in and out of this place but that kinds of theoretic physics goes beyong my understandment.



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So force convertions are always wrong. If person is to believe, the belief comes with-in. Forcing is always wrong, always.


I agree, with which I point you back to the top of my post, force conversions of small children from atheism to their parents religion with no choice or option. You still haven't proven that all kids are atheists by born. Simply by not knowing doesn't make anyone atheist. Atheist is person who can make the choice and choices not to believe. God loves children. You should read Bible even you don't believe in that. It still gives good impression where western moral is based on. As pointed out earlier all people have inborn need to believe in something. wether its Creator God or that there's no supreme deity at all. Beliving something, religion or idolog or insane halluccinations... but there is no person who would not believe in anything. Everybody who is alive believes something.

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Alright God another question now bit more harder: What is your take on rabbi Yeshua Ben Yussuf and his teachings?


He doesnt seem that different from many of the other characters of the book in some respects, but some of his quotes seem to suggest that he was a power monger, and two-faced. But I really have not read much of the words that are associated with his name so I might be way off target.



Few of rabbi Yeshua's teaching's since you seem to be unfamiliar with them:


"Let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action."
"The truth shall make you free."
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
"Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?"
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you."

Question: How sure are you on your own faith and believes?

p.s. for those who do not know: Yeshua ben Yussuf mean Jesus, son of Josef...

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:43 pm 
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Quote:
Now, now... Let us not make assumption that all children are born in atheists as we cannot verify that unbiasly. I am against all generilization. That is just your assumption, I humply diasgree you with that. I believe all human beings have inborn need to believe in something.


We have absolute proof, when a child is born they are no more the citizen of the country of their birth, they no more speak the language of their parents or the country of their birth, they do not know they are even human. There are a huge number of things babies do not know, they are born with their instincts, and little else, God included. No one can believe in something that they dont know exists, therefore everything you dont know about does not exist until further notice.

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Atheistm is believing there's no such thing as God


All of the people who have been brought up without the concept of god are athiest by description of them not believing in God, they cant believe in something that they dont even know exists.

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But that doesn't mean anything that can be rationalized, should be rationalized or that when its rationalized is then absolute truth. Some say truth is 2 edged sword


One of the concepts of science is that people what to know more, they rationalise, theorise, and test until they find the answer, another of my great dislikes of religion is that it quite specifically asks you not to, it tells you in such a way that it is right and anything you do or say otherwise will be met with a harsh punishment. When I belive something to be true, I will hold to that idea because the knowlege is sufficient evidence that it is the most likely outcome, but if someone comes along with a better idea, or more definitive evidence I will quite hapily change my views. Religion is always right in its own eyes, but it is slowly disintegrating in light of modern science. You have come a long way from someone of your own branch of faith 500 years ago, you now believe that the earth is more than 6,000 years old, dinosaurs did exist, and the earth goes round the sun, and that our solar system is just one of hudereds of billions, but you still hold some of your archaic beliefs without a shred of evidence at all, but you have embraced others with no more evidence.

The rationale of people thousands of years ago was to create a god of thunder, a god that made the sun come up, a god of mischief, a god that makes the harvest grow. People have always tried to explain things, but now we (some of us) have moved on to better but still rational ideas.

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Yet formal education doesn't quarantee that person actually knows what his diploma say he should be able to do... Put person in work and look the results.


My point exactly.

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Morals you are reffering are based on judeo-christian hocus-pocus as some atheist said.


Certainly not, people who had never seen a christina person in their life, let alone read the holy book or listened to a preacher have all of the moral they need, they are imprinted into us as they are millions of other species, and I have not once heard of the God of rats and the 10 commandments of Rats telling them how to look after themselves, and their offspring. Man wrote down those morals, but just to be sure they would be followed by people who did not have any kind of law enforcement, numbers 1, 2, 3 and 10 were added. But I note a few are missing, where is the commandment telling people to look after their children. If you answer that by saying that it is innate within us then you must also include the rest of them, bar 1, 2, 3, and 10.

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As those of us who enjoy history can also read about crimes Khmer Rogues did when their pursued their Atheist and communistic idiology in building their dream nation without money and based on communistic idiology which was fiercly atheist.


That is an easy argument to win.

Just because some people do bad things because they are NOT religious does not mean that they would have done exactly the same thing because they were, I dont need to draw comparisons here you know them already. Just because Hitler, Mussolini and Hussein all had moustaches, does that then mean that everyone with a moustache is a trully evil person.? Comparisons here cannot be drawn at all.

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Atheists and religious people both can do as horrible things when they are fanatics. Not all fanatics believe in God or gods. But all fanatics are wrong. Especially those are ready to kill those who do not share their views.


I agree completely, and when you start to hear of suicide bombers who are Athiest, who murder people solely because they are not, that is when Athiesm has a serious problem, but those suicide bombers DO murder specifically because of their religion.

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Indeed as there is no need also for compulsory denial of God's existance aswell.


Absolutely not, that would defeat the entire point.

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Religions are corrupted. We also should remove politics from science as we removed religion from politics. All estremists are wrong, no matter what they say, since extremist cannot negotiate nor they cannot find compromise.


I agree, but someone still needs to control the scientists in just the same way as someone needs to police the police, and it should not be politicians - who I dont know. And we really have not removed religion from politics at all, if anything it is getting further involved than it was in previous generations.

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Morals is very intresting thing as they vary so much based on country and time. For ancient time's it was perfectly morally to sacrifice your first born by Burning him or Her in the fire for Ba'al


Things like that are not and never were morally correct, acceptable yes, because that is one of the things that religion does to people - if you dont sacrafice you boy, the sun wont rise and we will all die, note numbers 1, 2, and 3 of the commandments tell you not to think as you are a lesser being, and you must do what you are told before you can even think for yourself, thats why religions have got so much control over people, they tell you not to think, but only to do what you are told.
This is exactly the reason why suicide bombers do what they do, they only do what they are instructed to do, and it is all written down in their book, they are given threats and rewards - of course these brainwashed minions of evil men do what they do, they do it because of the power religion has over people.

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Moral is what our parents and people who teaches us while we grow say is acceptable and what is not. Moral itself is tied to society, societys history, culture and such. Good moral is based on your view. Since we share same cultural view, we agree upon this that your action was morally good.


Our parents simply reinforce what is already there, and yes culture does have a great influence on us as well as our parents, it tells us the levels of acceptability.

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But still, having two sets or rules and stadards, wether unconsciously or not is still having double standards. Wether its natural behaviour doesn't change what it is.


But you simply cannot deny that its there, you can do your best to change yourself, but it is still present.

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Hitler was human being, was he not? Tobin is human being is he not?


That is quite arguable to some people, a monster would be a better description for many, but denail is pointless, they are/were both human.

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We do not need approve, nor accept the horrible things people do. Nor we do not need like them. We can say they did wrong things and horrible things, but they are still human beings and should be treated as the basic dignity human being deserves. I was taught forgiving. I forgave person who murdered my father. I forgave Nazi's who were responsible decimation of my fathers family line in Romania and near by area's during WWII. Son of jew or Son of gypsy.


I disagree, there are some things that simply connot be forgiven, and even doing so would be immoral in my point of view. Forgiving somone for blatant premeditated murder is as good as saying that what you did was bad, but its OK now - what kind of message does that send to people, you can murder people in cold blood, but everything will be forgiven in the end.

Forgiving someone of such things only affects those who have forgiven or been forgiven, me as a bystander would not be affected by that forgiveness, but if it makes you happy keep it up. I am sorry to hear about your unfortunate family history.

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Revenge has never solved problems. And eye for an eye and tooth for an tooth, all world would be blind and toothless... Only way to stop wars and violence is to be one who stops.


Revenge, no, it has never really solved anything. But stopping fighting an enemy is a foolish idea, just because you stop does not mean they will. In some situations such as northern Ireland the best measure was to get both sides to stop, some people didnt, but the bulk of the people did, but in outright war it would be suicide.

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Mahathma Gandhi did show what passive resistance could do. And I love what he said: "I like your Christ but I don't like your christians, because they are so unlike your Christ". He nailed it...


Ghandi was foolish in many ways, and some of the things that he chose to do, helped break India apart, a much better example would have been Martin Luther King, and his Athiest backers and colleauges.

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human is only species known to kill for revenge or for satisfaction or for sadist pleasure. Most other animals just kill for food or for self defence.


There are many actually, Foxes, Orca, Rats, Lions, Baboons, and no doubt others.

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When fighting against monster's beware that you do not turn into one... if we kill the killer, are we better than killer was? I think not. One murder does not make other any more better or more rightous.


I disagree, if I was in a kill or be killed along with dozens of others, I would have no remorse at all, simply because I have saved many lives, no doubt I would have nightmares forever, but I would still know that what I did was right, and justified.

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Death sentence can make sense but is it morally ok? That depends on your culture but in my faith there's no justification for death penalty. Maybe I once was for it. But it does not change anything its just making another wrong thing to fix one wrong thing.


Going back to a previous point on society, this is not a question of whether it is morally wront, but whether society thinks it is wrong. It is not there so much for revenge, but as a just cause and more specifically as a example to others - whether it works I cannot say. Most people who view such things come away mortified even if they wanted the revenge.

Quote:
We should punish criminals according our laws. But that doesn't mean we should stop respecting human life. Human and human life is always worth of respecting for.


Personally I believe that people who have removed others rights have lost all of their respect, and as I believe respect needs to be earned, the start their jail sentences with 0, and have to work up from that point.

Quote:
God condemns people how they deserve it. Nobody escapes that. That is my faith, that's why I don't need to judge people nor I should, since I am not wise enough to judge people.


As you wish, but I believ that I CAN judge people because I am wise enough to make judgement on my own (they wont be perfect every time, but I will stand up and claim them to be my own regardless).

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But what good has my religious belief generally done?


I hope they have done the same as my Athiestic views and morals.

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What good has Mother Teresa's religious believes done?


Not a great deal.

Quote:
What is my ultimate goal of my faith? I don't have own religion. My ultimate goal is that I can look myself from the mirror without feeling shame.


It seems to me that you are developing your concept of faith as you go along, that a much better idea than being told what to do.

Quote:
Simply by not knowing doesn't make anyone atheist.


Not in my opinion, you are an Athiest if you dont believe in God, if you have not heard of such a thing by defenition you cannot believe in it - therefore you dont believe, thus an Athiest. You forgot one point, everyone on the planet is athiest to someone, so unless you believe in every God that some does believ exists or has believed existed 10,000+ of them you are also Athiest in someones eyes.

Quote:
wether its Creator God or that there's no supreme deity at all. Beliving something, religion or idolog or insane halluccinations... but there is no person who would not believe in anything. Everybody who is alive believes something.


Yes that is true, but I find any form of religion very difficult to believe in. Given the choice I cant see that anyone would go from knowlege of their surroundings, to belief in something with 0 evidence, 0 proof, and yet it tells us to do things that are immoral, and not to do things that are totally natural, I see religion as no more than shackles.

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"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."


Quote:
"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you."


Both of these seem quite close to the golden rule, which has been around in one form or another long before these verions of it were written, that does not mean that I wish to take away these wise words, far from it.

Quote:
Question: How sure are you on your own faith and believes?


I think that you and I are not that different in our beliefs and opinions with the exception of the religion and a couple of specific points about respect and unconditional love, not to mention that really intrusive God, but as they are specific to the judeo-christian belief we can pass them of as religious. It is also nice to know that you are religious, but have no formal religion, and are changing your beliefs as you go along, a wise move all round.

Just thought I would add this, another example of religion poking it nose into ther peoples business where it is not wanted.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... films.html


Andy

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Last edited by andyb on Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:16 pm 
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andyb wrote:
Quote:
and Islamophobia. I think I'm done here.


That word was made up, why? can be argued forever, and I dont want to argue about it, but it is made up.

A phobia is:

A persistent, abnormal, and irrational fear of a specific thing or situation that compels one to avoid it, despite the awareness and reassurance that it is not dangerous

i.e. Islamophobia cannot exist, whilst people are rational, and..... well it is dangerous, so please dont use that word, it is totally meaningless.

Homophobia is a well known word. I guess you would say it's made up for the same reasons above. Whether it's dangerous is in the eye of the beholder, many people (me included) have been surrounded by Muslims many times. I'm still alive, but maybe I'm just lucky.


andyb wrote:
Quote:
Wether God exists or not, is not our choice. All we can do is choose wether we believe God or not.


Not really, for most of us it was imprinted at an early age, just like the easter bunny, father christmas, and fairies, but later in life we were told that they were not real, but made up by humans. The longer we (humans) put off losing the sad belief in something made up by our unknowing prdecessors the better. Personally, I belive it is our choice as to whether God made us or whether our parents did (or the milkman if you are rather suspicious that you are good looking and your dad is really ugly). I chose that I was not made (created) by a celestial dictator, and that god (very likely) does not exist, so the whole concept of it not being our choice is very presumtious (did I mention the word dictator - think about that in relation to your sentence, I am right arent I, I chose not to live under a dictator, I reject that concept 100%

You claim God doesn't exist, and you claim he is a dictator.
Which one is it? Can't both hold up.


andyb wrote:
Quote:
Live well, respect your fellow human being


I intend to thank you, and the same to you. I respect all fellow humans to a degree, but that degree differs greatly, the vast majority of respect deserves to be earned, and I hope that other people agree that I must earn my respect with them, and they dont just hand it out regardless.

Respect is earned? That's what's wrong with the world today. Respect should be taught from day 1.

Just yesterday in a talk show, a man talked about how his little boy had to go to the toilet, and he gave his boy a dime. The boy goes to the toilet lady, says "please" while handing over the dime. After a pee or whatever, he comes back and gets a sweetie from the toilet lady. The little boy said "thank you" and both remarks amazed the toilet lady a great deal, she even went "oooooh! wonderful" to the parent.

THIS IS NORMAL! Or at the very least it should be.
Disrespect for police and fellow human beings all stem from a fault in upbringing.
Talking back to a policeman when getting a warning is not "cool" or funny, it's just downright anti social. As is laughing over an old woman who tripped, when you could help her up and pick up her groceries for her.

You don't have to know a person to respect him. I don't know 99.9% of the people I meet when I go to a supermarket or what have you. How can I ever learn they earn my respect this way?
If an old man gets into a crowded bus, most people have the decency to stand up for him. What did this old man do in those five seconds to earn their respect?


andyb wrote:
Quote:
Little kindness doesn't cost much but it can do miracles when handing out to other people.


I totally agree, I carried an old lady's shopping trolley down a long flight of steps on Monday, I did that because it was the right thing to do, I simply could not watch her wheel it down a single step at a time. In the future when I am old, I hope someone will do me such a favour, and I done expect them to religious to do it.

You respected a lady you didn't even know. What did she do to earn your respect?
Would you have helped her if you had reason to think she was a Muslim?


You respect all people until you have reason not to, same as all people are innocent until proven guilty.
Disrespect should never be the ground rule, respect should be.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 6:41 pm 
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andyb wrote:
qviri wrote:
andyb wrote:
Good, now all you need to agree is that people have a RATIONAL fear of Islam.
I'll do that as soon as you admit to having a rational fear of Catholicism because of IRA
I have a rational fear of every single Religion and cult on this earth that is practiced.

Now its your turn.


Then by tautology you are correct, there exist people who claim to have a rational fear of the religion of Islam.

BTW do you consider SPCR a cult, why or why not?

andyb wrote:
qviri wrote:
having a rational fear of Canadians because our government refuses to apologize for the mistreatment of British migrant children, and until last month having a rational fear of Australians for the same reason. Bonus points if you are afraid of the British because of lack of apology for the Dresden firestorm.
I have no fear of democratic sensible countries such as the ones that you have just mentioned, or even for the reasons you mentioned.


And yet you have a rational fear of sensible, in the same sense as you've used above, religious leaders for reasons comparable to ones I mentioned.

If you feel the reasons aren't comparable, feel free to substitute USA's involvement in Latin American affairs.

andyb wrote:
As far as apologies go, an apology from a country can only come from its leader, and many have been made, some will never come at all, but what does this have to do with the question. If you want me in person so apologise to the people of Dresden, I simply refuse


I had meant for your government to apologize, much like I implicated Canadian and Australian governments earlier in the sentence. To the best of my knowledge no government of an Allied country apologized for the firebombing of Dresden.

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Homophobia is a well known word. I guess you would say it's made up for the same reasons above.


Homophobia was created by religion, it quite specifically says so, and it has only spread because of that, another magnificent notch in the moral belt of religion.

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You claim God doesn't exist


I cl;aim there is no proof for thye existance of God that cannot be proven to a far greater degree by other things.

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and you claim he is a dictator.


I claim that God is a dictator to people who believe in God.

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Which one is it? Can't both hold up.


There is one for Athiests, and one for religious people, neither can of course co-exist except in the mind of the religious, so both can co-exist.

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Respect is earned? That's what's wrong with the world today. Respect should be taught from day 1.


I dont disagree that everyone deserves some respect, but the majority needs to be earned in my opinion.

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Just yesterday in a talk show, a man talked about how his little boy had to go to the toilet, and he gave his boy a dime. The boy goes to the toilet lady, says "please" while handing over the dime. After a pee or whatever, he comes back and gets a sweetie from the toilet lady. The little boy said "thank you" and both remarks amazed the toilet lady a great deal, she even went "oooooh! wonderful" to the parent.

THIS IS NORMAL! Or at the very least it should be.


I hope he washed his hands as well....... It is very sad to see that simple politeness is missing from so many people, but that is a cultural thing, people from other cultures wouldnt even consider such a thing.

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Disrespect for police and fellow human beings all stem from a fault in upbringing.
Talking back to a policeman when getting a warning is not "cool" or funny, it's just downright anti social. As is laughing over an old woman who tripped, when you could help her up and pick up her groceries for her.


Certainly, but some tree hugging liberal pussies have allowed this to go on for far to long, in the past the children would have been given a sharp whack by their parents, shopkeepers, and even the police officer. But although I like many of the concepts the the tree hugging liberal pussies have brought to the table, they have also let this happen.

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You don't have to know a person to respect him. I don't know 99.9% of the people I meet when I go to a supermarket or what have you. How can I ever learn they earn my respect this way?


You cant, and why would you suddenly want everyone around you to give you respect for shopping with them, if however you point out the the apple they have just picked up has a bruise on the bottom, they would suddenly respect you a little more - respect needs to be earned.

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If an old man gets into a crowded bus, most people have the decency to stand up for him. What did this old man do in those five seconds to earn their respect?


That is not just respect, that is kindness, politeness, and making someone else life a little nicer at the expense of your own, that is compassion, and the expectation that when you are old an infirm others will do the same for you. That is built into every single human on the planet, and it works by reward.

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You respected a lady you didn't even know. What did she do to earn your respect?


As above.

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Would you have helped her if you had reason to think she was a Muslim?


As bad as this may seem to some, please read on for further explanation, including where I get the knowlege of why I am stating my possible alternative undertakings from.

To be honest I would have thought about it for longer, and may not have offered my help. The answer is also in the paragraph above. If someone is not rewarded, and not given gratitude for the above action they are not as likely to perform that action, and judging from past experiences I would be less likely to get that reward, so no doubt I would be less likely to perform that action. In a single look at the ladies face, I knew from past experience that the chance of a reward was high, and after lifting the trolley bag I knew she would never had refused.

The funny part was when I got to the bottom of the flight of stars and then I realised she was not alone, her daughter (by looks) was with her, but no doubt she had refused her daughters help (as many old people do), but took help from a stranger - humans are very interesting mammals.

This is very well explained in the 4 part BBC Doumentary "Human Instinct" by Professor Robert Winston, which reminds me that I have been meaning to re-watch them, fascinating insight into ourselves and our primate nature.

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You respect all people until you have reason not to, same as all people are innocent until proven guilty.
Disrespect should never be the ground rule, respect should be.


I never once said that disrespect should be the ground rule, everyone should be given a basic level of respect, common courtesy and decency. Then by their actions I either add or subtract the respect I have for them, lets say for example I give everyone 50 respect out of 100 before I know the first thing about them, but the level of respect will change constantly by numerous actions on their part. I am not suggesting that you live by my rules of respect any more than you are suggesting that I should live by your rules of respect, but there are my rules.


Andy

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Last edited by andyb on Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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judge56988 wrote:
During the Middle Ages several European Catholic 'theocracies' set out openly and zealously to conquer as much of the world as they could and forcibly convert the natives of those countries to Christianity whilst at the same time robbing them of their treasure.


And look how badly that's turned out, two descendants of these theocracies having this discussion.

judge56988 wrote:
The Fundamentalist Islamic doctrine today is to convert the world to Islam and to enforce Sharia Law everywhere. They are quite open about it and are only lacking in the resources to implement the policy.


That is somewhat like saying I am quite open about purchasing a Koenigsegg and am only lacking in the resources before I can start murdering the ozone layer one kilometre at a time: yes, I would love to, and yes, it would be a bad thing if it happened. And yet.

judge56988 wrote:
Who would have thought in 500BC that the Romans would eventually control most of the known world?
Who would have thought in 1066 that the British would one day rule the largest empire ever seen?


Personally, I really like the perspective the Heraclitus quote I have in my signature gives me. Would you rather be anytime than now, now that the empires of Rome and Britain have come and gone? Do you think an Islamic-run world, after 500 years, will be better or worse than a Christian-run world? Why?

judge56988 wrote:
What I want is to protect Western Liberal Democracy from any potential threat from some fascist theocratic butchers who are at the same stage of development as the West was 500 years ago.


The Islam world was probably thinking the same thing when the Christian west was in the fascist theocratic stage. Would you rather they have resisted and remained the most influential culture?

judge56988 wrote:
It's all very well to preach about integration and living in harmony; but that's not what people do. Any study of history or watching the news from Africa tells you that.


That's true. If the quote in my signature speaks to the pragmatic side of me, integration and living in harmony speak to the idealist in me. On the truly historical scale, things always change, regardless what we do; so why not be decent people in the meanwhile?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:15 pm 
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BTW do you consider SPCR a cult, why or why not?


Yes to a certain degree, numbers 3, and 4 apply, but the rest dont at all.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult

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And yet you have a rational fear of sensible, in the same sense as you've used above, religious leaders for reasons comparable to ones I mentioned.

If you feel the reasons aren't comparable, feel free to substitute USA's involvement in Latin American affairs.


I cant advocate that what USA tries do do to other countries is right, the US government really enjoys poking its nose into other people business, this is often acceptable, but as often unaceptable such as your example of Latin America.

But personally I dont fear the US people (as an entire group), or the US government specifically, but some of the actions of the US government are simply wrong, but do I fear the US government in the same way as the Russian Government, the Iranian government (for want of a better word), the Chinese government, the North Korean government, certainly not.

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I had meant for your government to apologize, much like I implicated Canadian and Australian governments earlier in the sentence. To the best of my knowledge no government of an Allied country apologized for the firebombing of Dresden.


Although it was a deplorable act of malice as was much of the Second World War, you would be hard pushed to get an apology. At the time, in a war that was often directed at the civilian population, it was a war of attrition, fear and propoganda, on all 3 counts it was a victory and brilliant sucess, so even making the claim that it was the wrong thing to do at that point in time would not be 100% true, and as such it would be impossible for any apology that was to have any real meaning or value any more than for the German governments U-boat activities. It was means to an end, it worked, it was evil and cruel, but it worked.


Andy

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:30 pm 
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andyb wrote:
qviri wrote:
BTW do you consider SPCR a cult, why or why not?


Yes to a certain degree, numbers 3, and 4 apply, but the rest dont at all.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cult


Number 2 doesn't apply? How many points does a religion or cult need to score before it is rationally feared?

Do you have a rational fear of Jainism, a religion practiced in India?

andyb wrote:
Although it was a deplorable act of malice as was much of the Second World War, you would be hard pushed to get an apology. At the time, in a war that was often directed at the civilian population, it was a war of attrition, fear and propoganda, on all 3 counts it was a victory and brilliant sucess, so even making the claim that it was the wrong thing to do at that point in time would not be 100% true, and as such it would be impossible for any apology that was to have any real meaning or value any more than for the German governments U-boat activities. It was means to an end, it worked, it was evil and cruel, but it worked.


I'm sure the terrorists would claim that they are in a war of attrition, fear, and propaganda with the Heathenous West which invades their land with its ideology and values, yet does this make their attacks acceptable, a means to an end, or require condemnation?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 7:51 pm 
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Number 2 doesn't apply? How many points does a religion or cult need to score before it is rationally feared?


As some of them point to worship, rites, ceremonies we can conclude that SPCR has some of the qualities that make a cult, but just like a specific exercise regime - is it wrong.? Yes No.2 does apply, I missed that, but just like Budhism is considered most of a religion even though it does not tick every box it ticks enough to be classified by most. Even then, not all cults are bad, they have more of a bad reputation than they deserve, as you have pointed out to great effect they are erywhere around us, its religious cults that are the real concern. And I cant think of any rational fear that SPCR may give other than the classic one of is my even on.?

Quote:
Do you have a rational fear of Jainism, a religion practiced in India?


Not yet, but I also dont have an irational fear of Jainism, as you can probably guess it is a religion I am not familiar with.

Quote:
I'm sure the terrorists would claim that they are in a war of attrition, fear, and propaganda with the Heathenous West which invades their land with its ideology and values, yet does this make their attacks acceptable, a means to an end, or require condemnation?


No doubt some of them do, but it does not make it right. The reasons for both sides actions however are very different. As mentioned earlier with regards to America interfering where it is not wanted, it is very questionable as to whether the so called invasion, liberation and inclusion of democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq was the right thing to do.

There are both arguments for and against, the best one for that I have heard is that of compassion for the people who were being abused and murdered because they were of a different (sub) religion, or simply didnt bow down to their ruthless masters. Almost identical things have happened in Bosnia/Serbia, and various African countries in the recent past. In those instances it was seen as the right thing to do, and it was vaugely sucessful. One reason it seems to me as why Afghanistan and Iraq have not been as sucessful is because for some reason I dont understand the whole of the muslim world seesm to believe that this was a war against muslims, when the opposite is true, if it was a war against muslims the middle east would be a glassy puddle by now. This problem has been fueled by idiot imams the world over, and many people from amny countries have joined forces with pond scum to fight against the very people who are trying to make lives better for the people of those countries. I dont even need to mention the reasons why it was a bad idea - ultimately it needed to be thought through far more carefully than it was before massive actions were taken.


Andy

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 8:05 pm 
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andyb wrote:
Even then, not all cults are bad, they have more of a bad reputation than they deserve, as you have pointed out to great effect they are erywhere around us, its religious cults that are the real concern. And I cant think of any rational fear that SPCR may give other than the classic one of is my even on.?


This would appear to contradict your earlier statements that you have a rational fear of every religion and cult that is practiced. I would also appreciate you looking into Jainism a tiny bit and letting me know what about it makes you rationally afraid.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:20 am 
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This would appear to contradict your earlier statements that you have a rational fear of every religion and cult that is practiced.


That is true of every religion I know of, and of every cult that is specifically religion like in that it has leaders, worship and demands etc, not your local train spotters club, or SPCR.

Quote:
I would also appreciate you looking into Jainism a tiny bit and letting me know what about it makes you rationally afraid.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism

Seems of the surface to be totally harmless, but many of the things that a Jain is supposed to strive for I already do, but it also asks things of it followers, and that is where we part company, and some of the things it asks is totally un-natural.

Vegetarianism, we are omnivores, not herbivores.

Celebacy goes a long way to prove that a religion that has been around for as long as it has has so few followers, and is un-natural - why the shackles.?

Non-possesion is ridiculous, especially when you are supposed to detatch yourself from poeple and places as well as material objects, if you hate your family, and have no friends then this is a moot point, but for everyone else it is a repulsive idea.

Why is it that religions always have to impose things onto people, they wave a carrot and then say "but first you must ...."

Other than that it seems closely related to Budhism, the other of the least harmful religions (in a way), but it still makes unreasonable demands of its followers, and anyone who goes along with those demands is a little scary, there is my rational fear - the Jainist people themselves, anyone who tortures themselves for their religion is a scary person.


Andy

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:23 am 
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qviri wrote:
judge56988 wrote:
During the Middle Ages several European Catholic 'theocracies' set out openly and zealously to conquer as much of the world as they could and forcibly convert the natives of those countries to Christianity whilst at the same time robbing them of their treasure.


And look how badly that's turned out, two descendants of these theocracies having this discussion.


But we are free to have the discussion.

qviri wrote:
judge56988 wrote:
The Fundamentalist Islamic doctrine today is to convert the world to Islam and to enforce Sharia Law everywhere. They are quite open about it and are only lacking in the resources to implement the policy.


That is somewhat like saying I am quite open about purchasing a Koenigsegg and am only lacking in the resources before I can start murdering the ozone layer one kilometre at a time: yes, I would love to, and yes, it would be a bad thing if it happened. And yet.

Choose one:
a) Let the fire burn itself out and destroy everything in it's path.
b) Fight the fire so that it causes as little damage as possible. Consequent 'collateral damage' from the water used to put out the fire.
c) Take the matches away from the firelighter before the fire is started.
d) Stop the would be firelighter getting the matches in the first place.
e) Kill the firelighter while he/she is still working out how to get the matches.
f) Invite the firelighter into your home, give him some matches and show him how to use them.

qviri wrote:
judge56988 wrote:
Who would have thought in 500BC that the Romans would eventually control most of the known world?
Who would have thought in 1066 that the British would one day rule the largest empire ever seen?


Personally, I really like the perspective the Heraclitus quote I have in my signature gives me. Would you rather be anytime than now, now that the empires of Rome and Britain have come and gone? Do you think an Islamic-run world, after 500 years, will be better or worse than a Christian-run world? Why?

Who can answer that one? The development and progress of the world (or lack of) hinges on random events. It's the 'What if' scenario. If the Persians had defeated the Greeks; if the dinosaurs hadn't become extinct to make room for mammals.
I would like my children and their children to live in a world where they have the freedom that we now seem to take for granted here in the West; enough food to eat, water to drink, somewhere to live and the security of knowing that they are safe from the rampaging invader, that has been the fear of humanity for so long.

qviri wrote:
judge56988 wrote:
What I want is to protect Western Liberal Democracy from any potential threat from some fascist theocratic butchers who are at the same stage of development as the West was 500 years ago.


The Islam world was probably thinking the same thing when the Christian west was in the fascist theocratic stage. Would you rather they have resisted and remained the most influential culture?

As far as I remember they did resist and came close to defeating Christianity - they made it into Spain and for a while it was a close call.
Maybe I would now be a 'terrorist' if they had come out on top - who knows? My feeling is that it's a Darwinian thing - competition between cultures/countries/civilisations.

qviri wrote:
judge56988 wrote:
It's all very well to preach about integration and living in harmony; but that's not what people do. Any study of history or watching the news from Africa tells you that.


That's true. If the quote in my signature speaks to the pragmatic side of me, integration and living in harmony speak to the idealist in me. On the truly historical scale, things always change, regardless what we do; so why not be decent people in the meanwhile?


Absolutely. As I get older I get more pragmatic and less idealistic.
As Tennyson (Thanks Google) said, "The world is red in tooth and claw"
Humanity has a lot of evolving to do before we are above that.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:42 am 
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Choose one:
a) Let the fire burn itself out and destroy everything in it's path.
b) Fight the fire so that it causes as little damage as possible. Consequent 'collateral damage' from the water used to put out the fire.
c) Take the matches away from the firelighter before the fire is started.
d) Stop the would be firelighter getting the matches in the first place.
e) Kill the firelighter while he/she is still working out how to get the matches.
f) Invite the firelighter into your home, give him some matches and show him how to use them.


A = crazy
b = late but possible, although there will be lots of damage
c = would piss of the would be firestarter as they have the matches in their hand, but still the best option so far.
d = pre option C, would piss of the firestarter less, new best option.
e = similar to option b.
f = even crazier than option a.

I have a good idea of what the "matches" are, if I am right then it would be wise to teach all would be firestarters about why the matches were taken away, do matches = religion.?


Andy

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:29 am 
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andyb wrote:
Quote:
Choose one:
a) Let the fire burn itself out and destroy everything in it's path.
b) Fight the fire so that it causes as little damage as possible. Consequent 'collateral damage' from the water used to put out the fire.
c) Take the matches away from the firelighter before the fire is started.
d) Stop the would be firelighter getting the matches in the first place.
e) Kill the firelighter while he/she is still working out how to get the matches.
f) Invite the firelighter into your home, give him some matches and show him how to use them.


A = crazy
b = late but possible, although there will be lots of damage
c = would piss of the would be firestarter as they have the matches in their hand, but still the best option so far.
d = pre option C, would piss of the firestarter less, new best option.
e = similar to option b.
f = even crazier than option a.

I have a good idea of what the "matches" are, if I am right then it would be wise to teach all would be firestarters about why the matches were taken away, do matches = religion.?


Andy


Not so much religion, more weapons/nuclear technology for 'peaceful purposes' that are, or may be, in the hands of religous (or indeed any other type of) extremists intent on taking over the world.
Option (f) is how I see some European countries behaving, unpopular as it may be with the locals. In your view this would be the treehuggers approach.
Options (c) and (d) are how I see the US acting.
Option (e) would be favoured by some hard line right wing types in the US and Israel.
Option (b) is what usually ends up happening but inevitably the fire has done a lot of damage before people can decide how best to put it out.

My favoured option is (d)
Grown-ups can use matches responsibly, children and arsonists cannot.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:04 am 
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I would ask, when does this world end :D


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:17 am 
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andyb wrote:

We have absolute proof, when a child is born they are no more the citizen of the country of their birth, they no more speak the language of their parents or the country of their birth, they do not know they are even human. There are a huge number of things babies do not know, they are born with their instincts, and little else, God included. No one can believe in something that they dont know exists, therefore everything you dont know about does not exist until further notice.

Yet some scientist sopeak of race memory or genetic memory imprinted. May call instincs like why new born baby holds his breath and makes swimming motion under water while new born has not learned those things. But new born is not tabula rasa. There's something more in here. We just don't know it yet. Perhaps in future.

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All of the people who have been brought up without the concept of god are athiest by description of them not believing in God, they cant believe in something that they dont even know exists.
In that part you might be rightm but perhaps true atheists description is person who has choosen not to believe. Between choice of not believe and not able to make that choice do make a difference. But I don't know how God deals these things.

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One of the concepts of science is that people what to know more, they rationalise, theorise, and test until they find the answer, another of my great dislikes of religion is that it quite specifically asks you not to, it tells you in such a way that it is right and anything you do or say otherwise will be met with a harsh punishment. When I belive something to be true, I will hold to that idea because the knowlege is sufficient evidence that it is the most likely outcome, but if someone comes along with a better idea, or more definitive evidence I will quite hapily change my views. Religion is always right in its own eyes, but it is slowly disintegrating in light of modern science. You have come a long way from someone of your own branch of faith 500 years ago, you now believe that the earth is more than 6,000 years old, dinosaurs did exist, and the earth goes round the sun, and that our solar system is just one of hudereds of billions, but you still hold some of your archaic beliefs without a shred of evidence at all, but you have embraced others with no more evidence.

The rationale of people thousands of years ago was to create a god of thunder, a god that made the sun come up, a god of mischief, a god that makes the harvest grow. People have always tried to explain things, but now we (some of us) have moved on to better but still rational ideas.
But even if we put it nicely in wrap with rationalized idea, that still may not be the truth or at least whole truth. Rational and irrational are merely points of view.

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Certainly not, people who had never seen a christina person in their life, let alone read the holy book or listened to a preacher have all of the moral they need, they are imprinted into us as they are millions of other species, and I have not once heard of the God of rats and the 10 commandments of Rats telling them how to look after themselves, and their offspring. Man wrote down those morals, but just to be sure they would be followed by people who did not have any kind of law enforcement, numbers 1, 2, 3 and 10 were added. But I note a few are missing, where is the commandment telling people to look after their children. If you answer that by saying that it is innate within us then you must also include the rest of them, bar 1, 2, 3, and 10.

So what you say morals is just written day code of basic human instinc based behaviour and such has our laws became and hasn othing to do with judeo-christian base that western moral is built upon?

Quote:

That is an easy argument to win.

Just because some people do bad things because they are NOT religious does not mean that they would have done exactly the same thing because they were, I dont need to draw comparisons here you know them already. Just because Hitler, Mussolini and Hussein all had moustaches, does that then mean that everyone with a moustache is a trully evil person.? Comparisons here cannot be drawn at all.
Nor can be that all religious persons are fanatics nor can be just religious person's are fanatics. All extremist and fanatics are dangerous and there are all kinds of from atheists to differend kinds of religious fanatics and all have one thing common: They don't apprciate life and ready to kill anyone in their way and those who do not share their view of world.

Quote:

I agree completely, and when you start to hear of suicide bombers who are Athiest, who murder people solely because they are not, that is when Athiesm has a serious problem, but those suicide bombers DO murder specifically because of their religion.
We'll see in future but agreed so far. Who knows what kind people this climate thing might bring from. Maybe eco-terrorists go from ssoft to hard terrorism... But so far agreed.

Quote:

Absolutely not, that would defeat the entire point.

Good we can agree this much.

Quote:
I agree, but someone still needs to control the scientists in just the same way as someone needs to police the police, and it should not be politicians - who I dont know. And we really have not removed religion from politics at all, if anything it is getting further involved than it was in previous generations./quote]

True people need to be controlled but those peoples must have no alterior motives.

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Things like that are not and never were morally correct, acceptable yes, because that is one of the things that religion does to people - if you dont sacrafice you boy, the sun wont rise and we will all die, note numbers 1, 2, and 3 of the commandments tell you not to think as you are a lesser being, and you must do what you are told before you can even think for yourself, thats why religions have got so much control over people, they tell you not to think, but only to do what you are told.
This is exactly the reason why suicide bombers do what they do, they only do what they are instructed to do, and it is all written down in their book, they are given threats and rewards - of course these brainwashed minions of evil men do what they do, they do it because of the power religion has over people.

I still think moral is more than basic summary of basic human instincs of survival. And that moral is deeply dependable on socio-cutlture connections.

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Our parents simply reinforce what is already there, and yes culture does have a great influence on us as well as our parents, it tells us the levels of acceptability.

And thus als enforcing cultures meaning in moral concept and what acceptable and what is not.

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But you simply cannot deny that its there, you can do your best to change yourself, but it is still present.


because human being is not perfect. That we agree.

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That is quite arguable to some people, a monster would be a better description for many, but denail is pointless, they are/were both human.

They migth have acted like monster's nobody cannot deny that. But they are also human beings. People should hate. Most people who offend us we try to demonize them so hating is easier. That is wrong IMHO. but its basic human character. My faith is that we should rise above basic human character, basic desires and basic instincs so we can control them better.

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I disagree, there are some things that simply connot be forgiven, and even doing so would be immoral in my point of view. Forgiving somone for blatant premeditated murder is as good as saying that what you did was bad, but its OK now - what kind of message does that send to people, you can murder people in cold blood, but everything will be forgiven in the end.


We disagree this point, that much at least we can agree. Forgiven by the men, judged and accordingly punished by God, that is my faith and that is why I can keep forgiving as I know justice will happened eventually so its pointless hate people as it poisons your own life.


Quote:

Revenge, no, it has never really solved anything. But stopping fighting an enemy is a foolish idea, just because you stop does not mean they will. In some situations such as northern Ireland the best measure was to get both sides to stop, some people didnt, but the bulk of the people did, but in outright war it would be suicide.

Now that depends on situation. And why stop fighting if you're just defending your life. Nobody says do not defend your life or your family. bible tells as killing self defence is not wrong. Murder is. Not killing self defence. But if we all acted just for self defence, there would be a lot less wars.

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Ghandi was foolish in many ways, and some of the things that he chose to do, helped break India apart, a much better example would have been Martin Luther King, and his Athiest backers and colleauges.
Gandhi might have been a fool, but he is good fool and fool who'se example I would follow.

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There are many actually, Foxes, Orca, Rats, Lions, Baboons, and no doubt others.
You refer the cub killings?

Quote:
I disagree, if I was in a kill or be killed along with dozens of others, I would have no remorse at all, simply because I have saved many lives, no doubt I would have nightmares forever, but I would still know that what I did was right, and justified.
Nobody sais you cannot kill self defence. Some fundamentalist have taken that commadment thou shalt not kill, though exact wording would thou shalt not commit a murder. And that is also my faith.

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Going back to a previous point on society, this is not a question of whether it is morally wront, but whether society thinks it is wrong. It is not there so much for revenge, but as a just cause and more specifically as a example to others - whether it works I cannot say. Most people who view such things come away mortified even if they wanted the revenge.

And there's always some conflicts betwen society and people who thinks with their own brains. Look Galileo and Leonardo da Vinci. Conflict becomes when old, traditional thinking meets new idea. There's always those who oppose change and new things. Sometimes its wise sometimes not.

Quote:

Personally I believe that people who have removed others rights have lost all of their respect, and as I believe respect needs to be earned, the start their jail sentences with 0, and have to work up from that point.
Even when we lock up those who have commited crime against us, we should never stop treating them as human beings. As long there's life, there's hope. For this world and for human beings.

Quote:
As you wish, but I believ that I CAN judge people because I am wise enough to make judgement on my own (they wont be perfect every time, but I will stand up and claim them to be my own regardless).

In my experience is dangerous to say one is wise enough. Nobody is not wise enough to make judgement and take away life in act of retribution. Nor we can fully condemn any person as we might as well do the same thing in same situation as they did. But are we wise enough to condemn other people. Not me personally and I don't think any person in this world can condemn and judge other people always according justice. So we have to settle for law.

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I hope they have done the same as my Athiestic views and morals.

I very much hope that too.

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Not a great deal.
Still more than most. We could get slightly different answer in Calcutta if we would ask same question from stree children she helped.

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It seems to me that you are developing your concept of faith as you go along, that a much better idea than being told what to do.

Yes. I think faith is evolving with man. That is why religions are problematic. Religions do not evolve with the time. Religions stop progress, they stubbornly try to keep outdated view enforced. What worked 2,000 years ago may not work today. My faith is that God's true word does not hinder progress. Faith is flexible unlike religion. I have not yet seen any evidence in Bible that where God asks to build religion. Just that give the word out so peoples can make the choice wether believe or not.

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Not in my opinion, you are an Athiest if you dont believe in God, if you have not heard of such a thing by defenition you cannot believe in it - therefore you dont believe, thus an Athiest. You forgot one point, everyone on the planet is athiest to someone, so unless you believe in every God that some does believ exists or has believed existed 10,000+ of them you are also Athiest in someones eyes.
i choose honor the Creator God and our point has been generally in western society which is based on judeo-christian moral code and scriptures and honoring God of Abraham. I am not that familiar with hinduism and Buddhism. In that point you are correct.

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Yes that is true, but I find any form of religion very difficult to believe in. Given the choice I cant see that anyone would go from knowlege of their surroundings, to belief in something with 0 evidence, 0 proof, and yet it tells us to do things that are immoral, and not to do things that are totally natural, I see religion as no more than shackles.
Religion's were built to enforce religious concept of region to enforce the faith. More power people got that way in time, more corrupted they became. All major religion's are more or less went stray from the original teachings, when peoples enforcing the religion has enforced to enforce their own power, not faith of believers. And indeed you are right that way it has became shackles for most people.

Quote:

Both of these seem quite close to the golden rule, which has been around in one form or another long before these verions of it were written, that does not mean that I wish to take away these wise words, far from it.

IMHO Golden rule is based on these milleania old wisdom's but generally similar wisdom's most likely have existed earlier. In 6,000 years of written human history and millenia's prior that Its very unlike that similar wisdom would have never been around before.

Quote:

I think that you and I are not that different in our beliefs and opinions with the exception of the religion and a couple of specific points about respect and unconditional love, not to mention that really intrusive God, but as they are specific to the judeo-christian belief we can pass them of as religious. It is also nice to know that you are religious, but have no formal religion, and are changing your beliefs as you go along, a wise move all round.

Well said. But there are few things that do not really change. And that my faith in Holy Trinity, Teachings of Christ. What changes is way to apply them in modern world. True Christianity is about Love, forgiveness and Tolerance. Unfortunately those three qualities have gone missing in western world.

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Just thought I would add this, another example of religion poking it nose into ther peoples business where it is not wanted.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... films.html

I call your film (heck Christians are taught to turn other cheek in these situations, where your life is not threatten *sighs* not go in medieval simply they don't like writers ideology) and raise it with Cahtolic Churches AIDS/HIV handeling. Condom's are necessary to prevent spreading of that nasty virus. Yet condom's go against faith? I don't think they go against faith but religion. Religious dogma that is loosely if any based on Bible. One more reason to say religions are out dated institutes that have been corrupted and went stray from their original path and teachings and will of God.

My Question: Will there ever be a worthy movie from Terry Pratchett's Discworld books?

p.s. sorry for long edit. I missed few points

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Last edited by thejamppa on Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:20 am 
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This really made me chuckle.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-p ... 417963.stm


Andy

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:48 am 
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andyb wrote:


that was funny. I believe God has excellent sense of humor. Too bad same cannot be said much of God's followers... Faith is not serious business. Life is too short being serious.

That was honestly funny ^^

Too bad some people lack ability of self irony and take things way too seriously. They should read japanese Manga: Saint Brother's where Jesus and Buddha share appartment in modern Tokyo.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:16 am 
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Quote:
Yet some scientist sopeak of race memory or genetic memory imprinted. May call instincs like why new born baby holds his breath and makes swimming motion under water while new born has not learned those things. But new born is not tabula rasa. There's something more in here. We just don't know it yet. Perhaps in future.


Race and genetic memory have both been proven beyond doubt, right down to the ability to distinguish somones mood by simply looking at their face, or even just their eyes and the surrounding area. People are considerably more accurate when it is someone of their own race, even if they were brought up by parents of a different race, it is built into us at such a deep level that it is utterly pointless to even call it racism, its genetic. And we are still learning more about such things.

Quote:
In that part you might be rightm but perhaps true atheists description is person who has choosen not to believe. Between choice of not believe and not able to make that choice do make a difference. But I don't know how God deals these things.


Or how another god may deal with such things (if he exists), if you ask the average christian person whether they believe in Thor, they usually only give 1 of 2 likely answers. Who is Thor, or no. If someone knows of and about thor but chooses not to believe in Thor, but in another god instead, they are Athiest to thousands of gods. I am athiest to all gods.

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But even if we put it nicely in wrap with rationalized idea, that still may not be the truth or at least whole truth. Rational and irrational are merely points of view.


That is a valid point, as we now know about the Theories of Gravity, Germs, and Evolution, we can make the choice as to whether to believe the rational, well thought out and documented scientific theories, or we can choose to believe in irrational theories such as God. You may swap the words rational and irational and see what you think when you re read it. A rational theory is one that simply makes sense and stands up to scrutiny. Looking back in history, it is always the most rational ones that win out, which is why I believe that the dinosaurs were wiped out 76,000,000 years ago by a meteorite, the explanation of the events that happend from the moment of impact make far more sense than the other theories, and there happens to be a gigantic crater inthe gulf of Mexico, that is thought to be about the right date.

The above is me being rational with the information that I have been given, I might be wrong, but I believe in it as the best theory, and I am willing to change my view with the evidence. I want to know the truth, and the only way to get that is by using rationality, the vast majority of the miracles in the bible are irrational, as there is no way to make sense of them, and as we have no evidence of god at all that also has to be removed, what we are left with is an interesting fantasy novel.

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So what you say morals is just written day code of basic human instinc based behaviour and such has our laws became and hasn othing to do with judeo-christian base that western moral is built upon?



Exactly, you can look back further into history at the people who lived in the area before moses turned up, they had laws, and morals, in just the same way that people on the other side of the world did. All the Judeo-Christian commandments have done is cemented themselves into society, and claimed them as their own.

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Nor can be that all religious persons are fanatics nor can be just religious person's are fanatics. All extremist and fanatics are dangerous and there are all kinds of from atheists to differend kinds of religious fanatics and all have one thing common: They don't apprciate life and ready to kill anyone in their way and those who do not share their view of world.


Yes, but the difference is that most of the people like that need a cause, religion could be considered handy by some, but I see it as fuel for the fire. In just the same way that you try to keeps guns away from crazy aggressive people, I believe religion should also be kept away from those people, there is easily enough brutality and senseless violence in the Bible for a nutcase to home in on those points alone, and as they are entitled to do - read it as gospel.

Quote:
We'll see in future but agreed so far. Who knows what kind people this climate thing might bring from. Maybe eco-terrorists go from ssoft to hard terrorism... But so far agreed.


I really hope that most eco-terrorist are not athiests, they would give us a bad name - although I suspect that they are.

Quote:
True people need to be controlled but those peoples must have no alterior motives.


Unlike politicians, this is probably why the people who tend to run Colleges and Universities are often scientists, who understand finance and have a good moral sense.

Quote:
I still think moral is more than basic summary of basic human instincs of survival. And that moral is deeply dependable on socio-cutlture connections.


I wont disagree, but I would put 70% on moral instinct.

Quote:
And thus als enforcing cultures meaning in moral concept and what acceptable and what is not.


I would put most of what is acceptable to us on our culture, say 70% and the rest on instinct and morals.

Quote:
They migth have acted like monster's nobody cannot deny that. But they are also human beings. People should hate. Most people who offend us we try to demonize them so hating is easier. That is wrong IMHO. but its basic human character. My faith is that we should rise above basic human character, basic desires and basic instincs so we can control them better.


The exact reverse can also be said, we let people we love and respect get away with things that we would never dream of letting others do, you only have to look at Roman Polanski, if that was anyone else, he would have been in prison years ago. And yes I also believe that we should strive to be better, but that cannot happen when we dont even know how we work.

"There is no power worth having without the knowlege to control it". - Andyb

Quote:
We disagree this point, that much at least we can agree. Forgiven by the men, judged and accordingly punished by God, that is my faith and that is why I can keep forgiving as I know justice will happened eventually so its pointless hate people as it poisons your own life.


I shall agree to disagree on this point, we both know why we act the way we do, and we are both right for ourselves.

Quote:
Now that depends on situation. And why stop fighting if you're just defending your life. Nobody says do not defend your life or your family. bible tells as killing self defence is not wrong. Murder is. Not killing self defence. But if we all acted just for self defence, there would be a lot less wars.


We would fight to defend ourselves, our family and friends regardless of what the bible says, and yes there would be less war if it was kept to that, but mankind is greedy, we to make our lives better, we want power. These things are not always bad, and again it comes down to instinct, we want to constantly improve our surroundings to suit us better, it is aour nature, and if it was not, we would still be nomads in Africa. But yes obviously greed and power can corrupt.

Quote:
Gandhi might have been a fool, but he is good fool and fool who'se example I would follow.


Just be sensible, he wanted to keep as many Indians as simple farmers as he could, that was part of his downfall, he thought that people should not even try to improve their lives.

Quote:
You refer the cub killings?


Foxes kill chickens by the dozen for fun, and then take just one to eat, Orca play with their food and get pleasure from it, Rats kill mice on sight, but dont always eat, Lions hunt out and kill baby Cheetahs - one can only assume to reduce competition - they never eat them, Baboons often attack and litterally tear apart monkeys that they can catch when they cross paths, and usually just throw the monkey parts around to show they are more powerful and dominant.

Quote:
Even when we lock up those who have commited crime against us, we should never stop treating them as human beings. As long there's life, there's hope. For this world and for human beings.


I am sure the prison guards will feed and water them, but talk to them as though they were a decnt human being is a bit far fetched for me, but there are people who can, and do such things.

Quote:
Yes. I think faith is evolving with man. That is why religions are problematic. Religions do not evolve with the time. Religions stop progress, they stubbornly try to keep outdated view enforced. What worked 2,000 years ago may not work today. My faith is that God's true word does not hinder progress. Faith is flexible unlike religion. I have not yet seen any evidence in Bible that where God asks to build religion. Just that give the word out so peoples can make the choice wether believe or not.


Well done.

Quote:
Will there ever be a worthy movie from Terry Pratchett's Discworld books?


I hope so, especially before Terry loses his cognative abilites, as I am sure he would like to watch another of his books become film. The previous ones on Sky were OK considering the budget, but I really liked the fact that they were true to the books. FYI my housemate has just got his new book "Unseen Academicals".


Andy

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:07 am 
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I mentioned in a previous post as to why I might give prefrential treatment to some people, but not others, and I pointed out where I got that magnificent insight from, a BBC 4-part documentary by Robert Winston called "Human Instinct", I have just re-watched the first 3 parts in pure wonder and fascination, and am about to watch the 4th part that explains my previous answer that I fear without this information would seem vulgar, religionist, and fundamentally wrong - not that I have a problem with anyone saying that about me - that is explained in part three, I would strongly suggest that everyone should watch this series - and watch them in the correct order as well.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:00 pm 
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andyb wrote:
Seems of the surface to be totally harmless, but many of the things that a Jain is supposed to strive for I already do, but it also asks things of it followers, and that is where we part company, and some of the things it asks is totally un-natural.

Vegetarianism, we are omnivores, not herbivores.

Celebacy goes a long way to prove that a religion that has been around for as long as it has has so few followers, and is un-natural - why the shackles.?

Non-possesion is ridiculous, especially when you are supposed to detatch yourself from poeple and places as well as material objects, if you hate your family, and have no friends then this is a moot point, but for everyone else it is a repulsive idea.

Why is it that religions always have to impose things onto people, they wave a carrot and then say "but first you must ...."

Other than that it seems closely related to Budhism, the other of the least harmful religions (in a way), but it still makes unreasonable demands of its followers, and anyone who goes along with those demands is a little scary, there is my rational fear - the Jainist people themselves, anyone who tortures themselves for their religion is a scary person.


Beautiful. You could probably convince yourself to be afraid of a sugar cube. I have nothing to add other than a slight disappointment my earlier questions of "why do you care" have failed to have any effect.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:19 pm 
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Quote:
Beautiful. You could probably convince yourself to be afraid of a sugar cube.


I gave up sugar in my tea years ago, and have never looked back :D

But seriously, if I was brought up on sugar cubes, and told that bad things would happen to me if I stopped taking them in my tea, or that me fellow primate who uses sweetners in his tea was a beast, evil, and had no morals because he also liked coffee, that is unnacceptable, and so are those shackles.

Quote:
I have nothing to add other than a slight disappointment my earlier questions of "why do you care" have failed to have any effect.


I must have overlooked that point.....

Oh yes I remember now, I didnt, you failed to see it.

People who choose religion rather than having it thrust upon them always do it for reward, it makes them feel better in some way shape or form. I care because they can do exactly that without the shackles, its not the morals, the nice teachings, or the oneness with your brothers, sisters and comrades that is the problem.

The problems are that it costs you something, whether it is a minor freedom, or a lifetime of mental torment and anguish, it costs something, every single religion I have known a single thing about asks something of you, so that you can join the club, and that thing is never good.

By all means be spiritual, believe in god, believe in the good and sensible morals in ancient books, but "because I care" about the wellbeing of me fellow primates, you can do all of those things without religion, and without giving something needlessly that you might not miss until it is to late.

If I have answered the "why do you care" question about the wrong subject area please refine your question.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:37 pm 
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judge56988 wrote:
qviri wrote:
judge56988 wrote:
During the Middle Ages several European Catholic 'theocracies' set out openly and zealously to conquer as much of the world as they could and forcibly convert the natives of those countries to Christianity whilst at the same time robbing them of their treasure.


And look how badly that's turned out, two descendants of these theocracies having this discussion.


But we are free to have the discussion.


... Exactly.

judge56988 wrote:
Choose one:
a) Let the fire burn itself out and destroy everything in it's path.
b) Fight the fire so that it causes as little damage as possible. Consequent 'collateral damage' from the water used to put out the fire.
c) Take the matches away from the firelighter before the fire is started.
d) Stop the would be firelighter getting the matches in the first place.
e) Kill the firelighter while he/she is still working out how to get the matches.
f) Invite the firelighter into your home, give him some matches and show him how to use them.


Why not add some more...

g) Remove the flammable material.
h) Invite the firelighter into your home, show him a Rubik's cube so that starting fires will no longer be the most fun thing he knows.
i) Cease manufacturing of matches worldwide.

judge56988 wrote:
I would like my children and their children to live in a world where they have the freedom that we now seem to take for granted here in the West; enough food to eat, water to drink, somewhere to live and the security of knowing that they are safe from the rampaging invader, that has been the fear of humanity for so long.


In practice, it looks as though our freedom from the rampaging invader comes at the expense of our becoming the invader on the other side of the world.

judge56988 wrote:
As far as I remember they did resist and came close to defeating Christianity - they made it into Spain and for a while it was a close call.
Maybe I would now be a 'terrorist' if they had come out on top - who knows? My feeling is that it's a Darwinian thing - competition between cultures/countries/civilisations.


The interesting thing is Darwinian thing holds much less with humans, as if we had evolved or perhaps more likely isolated away from that. In Sparta I would have been thrown down the hole (apologies if this reference is bungled) given my relatively low physical fitness and poor eyesight, let alone in the earlier times when threat from animals was still very real. Now we have social security and hospitals. Where do you draw the line against pure Darwinian survival and for more human methods of interaction?

judge56988 wrote:
Absolutely. As I get older I get more pragmatic and less idealistic.


That seems to happen to a lot of people.

judge56988 wrote:
As Tennyson (Thanks Google) said, "The world is red in tooth and claw"
Humanity has a lot of evolving to do before we are above that.


Gotta start somewhere.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:21 pm 
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There is only one human race. There are no genetic markers for any of the so-called races of humans. Race is a false pretense.

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