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 Post subject: peltier coolers
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:57 pm 
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Does anyone have any experience with peltier coolers?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:58 pm 
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1. From Google Shopping Engine

http://www.google.com/products?q=peltie ... hl=en&aq=f


2. From crazypc.com


437W Qmax Peltier
http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2411/ ... ltier.html

Same Peltier Device used in the Dominator Pro!
This is a 437W peltier with bare leads. Using the peltier cooling effect, one side gets very hot as the other side gets freezing cold. Ideally used for water cooling as water cooling can keep the hot side of the the peltier from burning out the entire unit.
Imax: 32.8 Amps
Qmax: 437.2 Watts
Vmax: 26.7 Volts
Delta Tmax: 74.4 (K)
Size: 62mm X 62mm X 3.55mm

Peltier Thermoelectric Cooler (TEC) 226 Watt ($31.99)
http://www.crazypc.com/products/5912.html

Peltier Thermalelectric Cooler (TECs) 226Watt
Thermoelectric coolers (TECs) are solid state heat pumps that utilize the Peltier effect. During operation, DC current flows through the TEC causing heat to be transferred from one side of the TEC to the other, creating a cold and hot side. Please note that this unit comes with an un-terminated bare wire.

Related Item(s) Meanwell 300W Supplemental Power Supply SP-320-12 ($79.99)

Meanwell SP-320-12 300 Watt Supplemental Power Supply - For use with Peltier TEC systems or for additional lighting. This would also make a great bench top supply for testing 12V parts.
http://www.crazypc.com/products/7250.html


3. From virtualvillage.com

400W 12V Thermoelectric Cooler Peltier Plate Product SKU : 001540-017 - ($14.99)
http://www.virtualvillage.com/400w-12v- ... ium=shcomp

This thermoelectric cooler [TEC], otherwise known as a Peltier plate freezes to icy cold in just a matter of minutes, or alternatively, reverse the polarity and heat it to boiling point. How Does It Work?

Utilizing electricity, a TEC has an electrified metal plate that generates a heat pump which works when it is slid in between the CPU [for example] and the heat sink to keep the CPU side cool while the heat sink side stays warm.

Benefits:
Capable of generating electricity when one side is kept cool and heat is applied to the other. No moving internal parts to damage when in transit
Makes absolutely no noise and does not vibrate. Long life. Slim and compact

Specifications:
Type: TEC1-12726
400W, 12V, Couples: 127
Imax [A]: 26, Vmax [V]: 15.4, QCmax [W] 177.8, Tmax °C: 68
Dimensions: 50 x 50 x 3.65mm [2 x 2 x 0.15"]
Wire length: 101mm [4"]
Fully sealed for protection against moisture


4. From directron.com

Peltier Thermo-electric Cooling Module 6A 15.4V 153°F, -v [04C35] ($17.95)
http://www.directron.com/noname7.html

127 couple Peltier cooling modules. When powered one side gets cold while the other is hot. OEM in individual plastic bags.

Specifications: I max. : 6.0A. Delta T max. : 67°C. Voltage : 15.4V. Q max. : 51.4W. Number of couples : 127. Dimensions : 1.6" x 1.6" x 0.15". Weight : 0.77oz


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:41 pm 
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ProCooling has an active extreme cooling community. Peltiers are rarely if ever used for silencing, as they use CPU levels of electricity to work. They are also very inefficient and get worse as the temperature differential increases and need an independent PSU most of the time. I assume that some of the 1kW PSUs -could- provide enough 12v power for one. They also need watercooling to keep them 'cool'.

They require that the CPU socket, motherboard backside, and everything around the CPU socket be insulated to prevent frost buildup. Asking on ProCooling would be your best bet for info.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:13 pm 
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+1 with the above. This is really not to forum for peltier stuff. Check out xtremesystems or one of the other 'performance over everything else' style forums. I seriously doubt its possible to build a SPCR type silent system with a peltier!


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 5:26 pm 
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Location: England
Sucks when people put down a technology that they clearly don't understand.

Below ambient cooling + silent is a very difficult combination. Not impossible, but certainly unusual. Peltiers are not particularly inefficient, but they do require electricity. Under best case conditions you're looking at 20 degrees difference between hot and cold sides at a cop of under 2. So to move 100W of heat, you'll need to invest a bit over 50W of electricity.

The general theme is that radiators are far more efficient when full of hotter water. This is even more true when using "radiant" radiators, rather than the convective devices the community calls radiators. A domestic radiator will dissipate a couple of kW silently, but it needs water at 70 centigrade or so to do this. So you waste electricity by driving the peltiers, but the cooling system becomes far more efficient. I believe this has considerable application in m-atx / mini-itx systems.

The problem, obviously, is supplying more electricity without making too much noise. Approximate thermal limits for your reference:
Laing ddc can't tolerate water temp over 62
Tygon tubing is rated to 70, max
Peltiers fail at 80, lifespan diminished considerably over 70
Neither xspc, nor thermochill, nor feser are willing to tell me what maximum temp their radiators work at.
Highest temperature delta practically attainable is 25, wattage moved drops off quickly as you try to maintain a greater temperature delta.


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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 9:25 pm 
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I understand peltiers quite well, I used to be an extreme cooling type of guy, but I didn't really have funds. I spent quite a bit of time studying the various forms of sub ambient cooling, water cooling, and air cooling a several years ago.

I should have said that they are efficient when both sides are within a few degrees of the other, but they lose efficiency quickly as the temperatures move apart.

Mini systems would have less to gain than a high power system. Many minis run at very low power, many can't even be OCed. Overall, as long as a system is stable and isn't overheating there's no reason to go to extremes to cool it, especially when it takes more power to do it.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to use either, just that the benefits outweigh the costs almost every time.


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 1:01 am 
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Do you see the potential for fast, small systems? Specifically when you want to minimise size and/or noise while maintaining high performance, but don't care that much about electrical cost. Below ambient cooling with peltier's is unpopular, as their only advantage over phase change is noise. Not many people want a silent, ridiculously overclocked computer enough to pay for a peltier cascade.

People get hung up on the electrical efficiency side to them. You're moving heat against a thermal gradient, that cannot be done without decreasing efficiency whatever approach is taken. In practice I think the effort of designing and manufacturing the heat exchanger is a much bigger obstacle than increasing the electrical cost.

For above ambient peltier cooling, you spend more money on electricity, in exchange for increasing the effectiveness of a radiator. Whether you consider this a means of running fans slowly or removing them altogether, a way to maintain a good overclock at reasonable noise, or of just using fewer radiators it's surely something worth considering.


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PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2010 11:37 pm 
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M-ATX MBs can have two GPUs in some cases, ITX can only have one. The case must be at able to hold the full height cards, so the case can't really be very small. You suredly can't fit a WC system into the case.

A heavily OCed CPU, say at 300w, a 200w peltier, and a 200w GPU will require at least a 800w PSU. This PSU won't be cheap, as it must be efficient. The PSU should also be smaller than a ATX PSU. There is no way that this PSU will be cost efficient. This system is still throwing an extra 240w into the room.

Then there are the general problems, like what good is a computer with an incredibly massive CPU when the rest is cheap onboard crap. Yes, onboard stuff is better than it used to be, but it still pales to the PCI-E sound and video. How much CPU do you need when you can't watch a smooth 1080P .avi/.mkv file due to other limitations? Buying a better MB, GPU, or HDD will serve you better than CPU in that instance.

You are increasing the thermal difference, but you are also adding 200 watts to the system that must also be dissipated. If you are using a watercooler than you may have sufficient radiating surface, but if you have an air cooler you may find that the combination of a CPU and Peltier overwhelms the abilities of the HSF and you overheat anyways.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2010 6:30 pm 
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There is always a tendency to look at a system selfishly. I believe I would benefit from a thermoelectric system, so assume others could do as well. Please allow me to address some of your points.


Radiators tend to increase the size of cases. There's not very much to be done about this besides using fewer, smaller radiators. I'm viewing peltiers as a means of achieving such a reduction, but have no illusions about removing radiators completely. Air cooling is woefully inadequate for the task, and anyone mad enough to put thermoelectrics near a computer is likely to have left air cooling behind some time ago. So I believe the appeal is improving watercooling, not improving air cooling.

An achievable, stable overclock on a cpu tends to be very temperature dependent. It's less so on a gpu, where lack of voltage control (without soldering) tends to limit you as much as temperatures. Certainly I'm happy running graphics cards much hotter than processors in the interests of quiet. I agree that 200W on graphics, 300W on cpu will need an 800W power supply. Such things exist, but are not very quiet or very cheap. Watercooling power supplies is not recommended as risk of electrocution is significant.

Regarding general problems, I'd personally be very happy with a fast processor and slow graphics cards. Mostly this is because I can't get cuda to play nicely, and I spend considerable amounts of time working with matlab. Someone who does a lot of video/imaging work may agree with me, a gamer would not. I believe a low end c2d at stock can play back 1080P flawlessly without assistance, but as I've not tried to play any HD media I'll take your word on it.


Physically small power supplies that can output considerable wattage are very difficult. Oil cooled mains AC to 12V then a pico-psu is my best hope at present, but it's not a very good solution considering cost or electrical efficiency.


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PostPosted: Mon May 24, 2010 11:44 am 
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I always try my best to put myself in the other person's shoes. When I'm talking about general use I think of the average person using Email and Web browsing, some flash games, storing pictures, and maybe some audio/video playback. From what I've seen, a good MB + HDD are the most important things for them. Good quality off the shelf components are reasonably priced, though they tend to be large.

Your operation is very heavily CPU dependent so a TEC + WC will give you better CPU OCing and better performance. It just won't be small by any stretch, especially if you have a heavily overvolted CPU.

The Pico PSU can only deal with a maximum of 150watts. (skipping the power brick it has 90% efficiency) In a high power system like we're discussing it won't even be able to deal with the CPU; although you could hook the TEC directly up to the power brick and bypass that. You'd need a relay to auto switch the TEC so that you wouldn't forget to turn it on/off. Either could cause problems, either frosting if it was on or overheating if it was off.

Dropping the 200w GPU would bring the system down to 600w, quiet ATX PSUs do exist in this region, but again, they're not small.

I think my main point is that once you have high power draw or WC/TEC you can't have a physically small system. Small systems by nature lend themselves to low power/speed components. Adding a high power part instantly ups the size of the cooling unit and power supply.

jonj678 wrote:
I believe a low end c2d at stock can play back 1080P flawlessly without assistance, but as I've not tried to play any HD media I'll take your word on it.

I don't meaning that the CPU is the limiting factor, just that more CPU won't compensate for other limitations; like poor onboard graphics or an overload of background services like antivirus and autoupdate programs.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 8:35 pm 
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The Peltier cooler is the best form of processor cooling currently available. It keeps the processor at a low temperature, and since the Peltier cooler does not use moving parts, it is not subject to failure the way CPU fans are. Of course this performance comes at a cost, and these devices are more expensive than other cooling options. They can also be complicated to set up, and if done incorrectly, can cause problems or even equipment failure.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:40 am 
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The problem of condensation is the issue.

All in all, it makes for the best cooling, however, only for overclocking!


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