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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:29 am 
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fwiffo wrote:
I've never heard of one.


OK thanks.

Quote:
But you're not having a reaction to your mouse. If you were, then you'd be having much stronger reactions to everyday objects like lamps, the sun, radioactive elements in soil/rocks, the air, raccoons, etc. which emit more of pretty much everything that you claim you might be reacting to...


Well, this is a physical reaction I am feeling with the mice, not psycho-somatic.
I plug in my ball mouse and I am fine. I plug in a dozen (yes I've tried close to about a dozen optical wired/wireless mice now) and I feel a small pressure in my temples (and it's not pleasant).

I can't of course pinpoint if it's EMF's, high frequency sound, voodoo, or whatnot. All I know is that I can feel it, and that's all that matters.
With some mice, the sensation is stronger than others, but it's always there.

For now, I'll stick with my ball mice (I have a few) until something else comes along.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 5:10 am 
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I'd sure appreciate it if the replies to the OP's question could be limited to answering the question itself.

Instead of arguing/sparring with him about the causes of his physical symptoms, please try and keep your replies from wandering off-topic.

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:24 am 
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Optical mice probably have more complicated, advanced and powerful chips inside, so they can process the image. Ball mice on the other hand only need to process the "yes" and "no" coming from the sensor behind the wheel. So I think the "majority" of the EMF is coming from the chips.

You could try to shield the contents with something conductive (don't forget to ground the shielding).

BTW Did you try googling for "usb ball mouse"? The first result I got was
this Dell ball mouse


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2010 6:44 pm 
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That Kensington trackball has mechanical sensors in it like a mouse - or at least the original design until a few years ago did. There might be an optical sensor, but it would be no different than a typical mouse with a ball in it.(low voltage light beam through a tiny wheel with slots in it vs a high powered laser or light)

Ebay Item number: 220610460852
This is the correct type. Non-usb, serial port/PS2 type interface. Just liek a giant upside-down mouse mechanically.(I have two that are nearly 15 years old - taken them apart to fix them a few times since the new ones cost so much money) The only issue that they have is that you have to clean the wheels inside like a mouse, though they are larger. The "trick" to do this is to carefully cut the labels/sticker on bottom that covers the bottom of the wheel wells. If you do this, then they won't collect nearly as much gunk in there - and the stuff you scrape off falls through to the desk instead of getting blown around inside the mechanisms.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 12:36 am 
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NoiseFreeGuy wrote:
Well, this is a physical reaction I am feeling with the mice, not psycho-somatic.
I plug in my ball mouse and I am fine. I plug in a dozen (yes I've tried close to about a dozen optical wired/wireless mice now) and I feel a small pressure in my temples (and it's not pleasant).

I can't of course pinpoint if it's EMF's, high frequency sound, voodoo, or whatnot. All I know is that I can feel it, and that's all that matters.
With some mice, the sensation is stronger than others, but it's always there.

I have a hypothesis for the original problem.

Common sense tells me that mouse EMF is negligeble.

But my experience states that often time mouse is the source/reason for high-pitched sound. Be in MX518 whine or soundcard/speaker feedback on mouse movement.

Could ultrasound in your setup be the problem? Do you have same sensetion behind other PCs, not other mice?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 2:56 pm 
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Ralf Hutter wrote:
I'd sure appreciate it if the replies to the OP's question could be limited to answering the question itself.

Instead of arguing/sparring with him about the causes of his physical symptoms, please try and keep your replies from wandering off-topic.

Thanks!


Thanks Ralf for getting the post back on track.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:00 pm 
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lobuni wrote:
...You could try to shield the contents with something conductive (don't forget to ground the shielding).

BTW Did you try googling for "usb ball mouse"? The first result I got was
this Dell ball mouse


Thanks Lobuni.
Are you meaning perhaps encasing the mouse chips in metal foil and then grounding that?

Thanks. I hadn't googled "usb ball mouse", just usb non-optical mouse etc.
I will check out the Dell and any others that might pop up with that search.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Plekto wrote:
That Kensington trackball has mechanical sensors in it like a mouse - or at least the original design until a few years ago did. There might be an optical sensor, but it would be no different than a typical mouse with a ball in it.(low voltage light beam through a tiny wheel with slots in it vs a high powered laser or light)

Ebay Item number: 220610460852
This is the correct type. Non-usb, serial port/PS2 type interface...


Thanks Plekto. As far as EMF's, UHF's etc. this trackball would probably be OK, but it would still require a USB adapter which is what I am trying to avoid.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 3:11 pm 
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alecmg wrote:
...Common sense tells me that mouse EMF is negligeble.

But my experience states that often time mouse is the source/reason for high-pitched sound. Be in MX518 whine or soundcard/speaker feedback on mouse movement.

Could ultrasound in your setup be the problem? Do you have same sensetion behind other PCs, not other mice?


Thanks alecmg. Yes ultrasound could definitely be the culprit.
Yes I have the exact same sensation when I'm around almost any PC/case/motherboard/notebook etc..
Most hard drives will give me the same sensation, especially 7200 rpm ones.

I still have my Iomega Zip drive (which I don't use) from the mid 1990's.
I could put that unit in the next room, plug it in and feel the same sensation in my temples! And that would be with no disk in the unit even.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:08 pm 
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NeilBlanchard wrote:
Optical sensors, by definition do not have anything to do with electromagnetic forces. Wireless mice use radio frequencies, which are quite different from electromagnetic forces.

A wired optical tracking mouse would seem to be the solution to totally avoid EMF.


A little off topic - but optical sensors and radio frequency sensors or emitters have everything to do with electromagnetic fields (and therefore with electromagnetic forces). Light (optical) and radio are just different names for electromagnetic waves. So it is a question of frequency, proximity, energy, shielding, etc. (Or how small a field consider negligible.)

As far as a non-optical, non-wireless USB mouse:
If a ball mouse is acceptable - try local surplus stores (most likely place to find ball mice, and I believe some of them had USB connector).

If ball mouse not acceptable - have you thought about using optical tracking devices? (e.g., I believe some multi-touch systems use a camera to track pointing input). Yes it is optical, but the electronics are further from the user (inverse squared law).

What about building a handle for your optical mouse so your hand is further from it? (e.g. a padded cover so your hand is further above the mouse - I just tried throwing a washcloth over a mouse and could still control it. Could see how much you need to build up.)

Again - inverse square - for every doubling of distance the field drops by 1/4. (So if have hand on a mouse gives 1" from electronics, a 2" add-on would give you 1/9th the field.

Have somebody else (in next room) plug and unplug the mouse (without telling you when plugged in, and disable any visible lights on mouse) with your hand at different distances, and record when you could feel it -> how far away.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:16 am 
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NoiseFreeGuy wrote:
Are you meaning perhaps encasing the mouse chips in metal foil and then grounding that?


I would say more like open the mouse and line the casing with metal foil. Of course this all will be on your responsibility and you would have to see that you won't short anything (you should probably add a layer of something nonconducting on the foil). And you would have to see which pin is the ground and connect it to the foil (by soldered wire?).

BTW I agree, with the rest of the folk - the power usage of the mouse is too small to generate a significant amount EMF as a byproduct.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:25 pm 
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NoiseFreeGuy wrote:
I'm not here to prove anything to anyone.
I asked a simple question:

A non-optical, non-wireless USB mouse. Does it exist?


As already explained before your post, even trackball mice use optical sensors. And "laser" mice are just a different form of optical (laser instead of LED).

You could try an 'inertial' mouse which uses accelerometers, but I have no idea where you'd find one.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_m ... copic_mice

Funnily enough in a google search of "EMF of computer mice", this thread came up as the fourth (non-sponsored) link.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:49 pm 
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NoiseFreeGuy wrote:
A non-optical, non-wireless USB mouse. Does it exist?

I certainly can't find one in the stores in my town.
A quiet one would be nice too. :)
I can't tolerate the EMF's from the opticals/wireless.

In the meantime I have a PS/2 mouse with a USB adapter, but trying to improve on that.

TIA


All research that I have read about people being "bothered" by EMF always conclude that people that are EMF sensitive most of the time have some other, psychological issues.
Try some medical help instead.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:53 pm 
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NoiseFreeGuy wrote:
qviri wrote:
Unfortunately, if someone is bothered by an infrared LED they are likely to have larger problems than computer mice.


Could you please rephrase this so I can understand exactly what you are saying?


The amount of EM radiation from an infrared LED of the kind that would be found in a wheeled mouse is fantastically small compared to what an average person will encounter every day from other sources (microwave; wifi; electrical cabling; cellular communications; radio and over-the-air television; if one wants to be picky visible light is EM radiation too). The amount of radiation from an optical laser mouse would be comparatively only slightly higher.

If you are specifically sensible to EM around the infrared frequencies, you will also be bothered by, among others, TV remote controls, your laptop's IrDA connection if it has one, a Nintendo Wiimote, and a Pokéwalker.

If you are only bothered by cellular communications when a phone is near your head, it is extremely unlikely you would be having an averse reaction to an LED inside a mouse held at an arm-length distance. Not only is the radiation from an LED much less powerful, the strength of the field decreases with the square of the distance, further reducing the effects.

NeilBlanchard wrote:
Optical sensors, by definition do not have anything to do with electromagnetic forces. Wireless mice use radio frequencies, which are quite different from electromagnetic forces.

A wired optical tracking mouse would seem to be the solution to totally avoid EMF.


Electromagnetic forces are not the same as electromagnetic radiation. Optical sensors, using EM radiation from a LED of one sort or another, will necessarily have to do with EM phenomena.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:19 am 
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To original poster:

Sounds that are too high frequency to hear can sometimes still be felt as pain.

For example, many CRT TV sets emitted a very high frequency whine, including my grandmothers. She could not hear it, but me and my gf actually felt pain from the noise when we visited her, even though we can hardly even identify that its actually a sound.

The devices you have listed often emit high frequency noise. One gsm phone charger my gf used to have had this very annoying sound that she did not even notice. I used to move that charger to a far away corner of our flat when she had plugged it in.

My old Logitech MX500 mouse emitted a high frequency noise too. It was very annoying. Here's the beef: When I upgraded to a Razer Lachesis, no noise could be heard anymore, even if I put my ear against the device.

I can feel your pain: You have real symptoms, but don't really know what causes them. The important thing is to remain sceptical, maybe if you get fixated on the EMF explanation you would overlook the possible true reason.

Maybe you could try an experiment where you are blindfolded and someone you trust brings devices near you either powered or not powered without telling you, and you keep track of feeling or not feeling pain. But even this would not differentiate between OTHER possible reasons why those said devices cause you pain other than EMF. I honestly think the high frequency noise could be a possible explanation.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 8:36 pm 
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lm wrote:
To original poster:

Sounds that are too high frequency to hear can sometimes still be felt as pain.

For example, many CRT TV sets emitted a very high frequency whine, including my grandmothers. She could not hear it, but me and my gf actually felt pain from the noise when we visited her, even though we can hardly even identify that its actually a sound.

The devices you have listed often emit high frequency noise. One gsm phone charger my gf used to have had this very annoying sound that she did not even notice. I used to move that charger to a far away corner of our flat when she had plugged it in.


I can feel your pain: You have real symptoms, but don't really know what causes them. The important thing is to remain sceptical, maybe if you get fixated on the EMF explanation you would overlook the possible true reason.

...I honestly think the high frequency noise could be a possible explanation.


Thanks for jumping in Im.

All I need is just one other poster here to identify with what I am feeling.
You feel it too. We know what we feel. Others can't feel it, so they can't relate to us. They resort to calling us names, but that's OK.

We are likely less than 1% of the general population.

I believe you are correct about it being HFN.
The HFN that my printer power adapter emits can be heard and felt in my temples. It drives me absolutely bonkers. I disconnect the adapter whenever I'm not using the printer.

So if it makes the others feel better, substitute HFN for EMF's everywhere in this thread. I'm sorry that I used the wrong term.

I know I'm feeling something; it doesn't make me feel better or worse knowing that it's HFN rather than EMF's. It's still a problem.

Incidentally, LFN (low frequency noise) is an even greater annoyance for me. But that's for another rainy day. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:04 am 
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Perhaps you should change your PSU. The MB. The graphic card. Not the mouse. I don't believe any mouse emits any sound, high frequency or what. You should test your mice on another computer. Some old Pentium III might be better.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 1:58 am 
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Old TV's emitted a frequency of ~15-16kHz, which is hardly outside of human hearing. My wife can/could hear the old burglar alarms and bird repellent systems.

But, radiation of all types is all around us all the time, from natural sources and from human-made sources. If you go down that road, you'll go crazy, because it is not possible to eliminate them.

I think you are hearing the noise from a mouse, and/or from the computer in reaction to the mouse. And, you should probably not reject all mice of a particular type, as not all mice of a particular type are noisy. You will have to find a mouse that is quiet (enough) for you, especially if you are very sensitive to something in particular.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Klusu wrote:
Perhaps you should change your PSU. The MB. The graphic card. Not the mouse...



You have assumed than I am using my desktop with the mice.
This is not the case.

I am using them with my Asus eeePC netbook.

There is no MB or graphic card to change.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:08 pm 
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What mouse are you using?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:14 pm 
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NeilBlanchard wrote:
What mouse are you using?


Good question.
I'm using an el-cheapo PS/2 Blaze mini mouse (ball) that I picked up for a few bucks at a surplus store.
It's not the quietest in terms of clicking noise, but at least it's a ball mouse.

Just to fill in a few more blanks about my noise sensitivity.
There are very few netbooks/notebooks/computers on the market that I could buy and live with.

Hard drives are always an issue, especially if they are near me.
I currently have my desktop computer in the next room with a Samsung HM160HC 2.5" ATA 5400 rpm drive. I can't hear or feel it, so it's great.

CPU's have been problematic with me as well.
I was getting by great with a desktop Pentium 166 Mhz for years (also in the next room) and then I decided to try an AMD K6+ to improve my computer speed. I swapped out the CPU's and immediately started to feel the same pressure in my temples that I have been describing in this thread.
I tried all kinds of settings with the CPU, but none of them helped.

I went back to the P166. Then a while later I built my current system
which has a 1.86 GHz Pentium-M CPU. It's fine.

Over the last few years I've tried many net/notebooks that have the Atom CPU/hard drives and they all give my the same pressure sensation in my temples. I don't know if it's the Atom CPU or hard drives doing it. I suspect both, since one time I tried out a netbook that had a flashdisk and still had the same problem.

In all cases, the physical reaction is the same. The pain/pressure doesn't occur in my foot, or arm, or neck, or back, or fingers, eyes, teeth, etc.. It's always in my temples.

Probably HFN?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 2:20 pm 
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Does your current mouse cause the problem for you?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2010 7:18 pm 
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NeilBlanchard wrote:
Does your current mouse cause the problem for you?


No, it's fine.
Also my desktop mouse is fine (ball, Microsoft Wheel mouse 3.0 PS/2).

I just started this thread to see if there was a USB ball mouse.
I'm using a PS/2 to USB adapter (for my netbook) that's fairly bulky and would like to cut out the adapter if possible, for travel.

I had no idea that the thread would evolve the way it has. :)

Having said all of the above, I'm still fairly picky about even the ball mice that I buy and try them out carefully. Only the quietest ones pass the test for me. :)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:15 am 
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Hey,

I actually have a USB ball mouse in my basement (or it was there).
So they do exist, but I guess, very rare.

You seem very sensitive to EMF's
EMF's are generated by current running through any conductor, which every electronic equipment has.

That being said, optical mouse vs ball mouses (wired) should both have the same effect on you, but somehow doesnt.

I'm thinking if the ball mice use less power (emitting lower EMF), low enough for you not to detect them whereas optical mice need power for TX and RX.


Just a little clarification:
Optical mouse: LED flashing at a high rate of speed into a photosensitive device. No wireless there.

Ball mouse: Plastic shafts with slotted encoders on the end, infrared light shines through the slots giving pulses to the receiver.


-I read above about covering your mouse with aluminum foil, if that works externally, why not open your mouse and cover it internally?

-Also, if you're a real techie, you can make the PS2/USB adapter inside the actual mouse.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 4:28 pm 
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roastmeat wrote:
Hey,

I actually have a USB ball mouse in my basement (or it was there).
So they do exist, but I guess, very rare.


Cool!

Quote:
-I read above about covering your mouse with aluminum foil, if that works externally, why not open your mouse and cover it internally?


I might try that down the road if I have the inclination.

Quote:
-Also, if you're a real techie, you can make the PS2/USB adapter inside the actual mouse.


I definitely wouldn't have the inclination to do that! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 12:22 pm 
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There's no question EMFs affect many people, experts say its far higher than 1%. I feel the signal in my hand when using the optical mouse I have been using. I just ordered the rollerball one mentioned on here. Thanks.

I head you mention having wifi in your house... that is your number 1 problem! That is a very strong signal that penetrates walls and sends the signal hundreds of feet away. I had it too and continued to get headaches. I now have wired connections to several rooms in my house and did away with the need for wifi.

What many experts are just now beginning to look at is the effects of different wireless systems on each other and how they mix and magnify each other. So if you have wifi on, that creates a very strong blanket signal which will then magnify the signals from other devices such as your computer, the mouse, cordless phones, cell phones, etc. You should also check to see if you are near any communications antennas, or cell towers... those can really amp up everything in your house. I used to be located within 200 feet of a major cell tower installation with more than 50 antennas on the roof of a nearby building, with a straight shot into my living room. I had no idea about any of this, but quickly got up to speed through research and talking to the nation's 3 leading experts on EMF. I also discovered that my 4 close neighbors all recently put in wifi systems - all zapping my apartment. Within a few years of this daily exposure, I began to develop serious physical problems that continued to worsen until I finally moved out and to a new place not inundated with EMF, and more than a half mile from any cell towers. I quickly healed after several months. Many don't know and don't move and end up with all sorts of problems and many eventually get cancer from this exposure after several years.

This is really serious stuff! We are just now beginning to see the multiple level of health dangers that these systems can cause as we continue to deploy them more and stronger every day.
For a great background on this stuff, watch this video of the latest science from around the world on EMF:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tZDor-_co0
In case links don't show, search "Bioinitiative Report" Biological standards for wireless... on youtube to watch the video.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:35 pm 
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asdfghjkl wrote:
There's no question EMFs affect many people, experts say its far higher than 1%. ...
I head you mention having wifi in your house... that is your number 1 problem! That is a very strong signal that penetrates walls and sends the signal hundreds of feet away. I had it too and continued to get headaches. I now have wired connections to several rooms in my house and did away with the need for wifi.

... You should also check to see if you are near any communications antennas, or cell towers... those can really amp up everything in your house. I used to be located within 200 feet of a major cell tower installation with more than 50 antennas on the roof of a nearby building, with a straight shot into my living room. ... I finally moved out and to a new place not inundated with EMF, and more than a half mile from any cell towers. I quickly healed after several months. Many don't know and don't move and end up with all sorts of problems and many eventually get cancer from this exposure after several years.

This is really serious stuff! We are just now beginning to see the multiple level of health dangers that these systems can cause as we continue to deploy them more and stronger every day.
For a great background on this stuff, watch this video of the latest science from around the world on EMF:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tZDor-_co0
In case links don't show, search "Bioinitiative Report" Biological standards for wireless... on youtube to watch the video.



Thanks very much for that link to the "Bioinitiative Report". I will definitely be contacting that woman at some point in the future.

It's nice to get some validation about this topic on this forum.
The vast majority of people who have replied to this thread not only can't feel the EMF's,
but aren't open to the idea that others can. That is unfortunate.

Yes I am sensitive to Wifi as well. I use a small portable WiFi router occasionally in my house with my smartphone. Sometimes I will forget to turn off the router before I go to bed. I almost always begin to feel that sensation in my temples, remember the WiFi, get up and then turn it off.

Cell towers and cellphones are an issue for me as well.
Although I keep my cellphone turned off 99+% of the time, I still wanted to buy a low SAR phone.
I researched the market thoroughly before I bought mine. In spite of that, I can still feel 'vibes' from the phone when it's turned on (no call being made).

A few months ago I upgraded my cellphone firmware from Android 2.1 to 2.2.
At the same time I also installed a software that shows what the connection is (3G, G etc.)
I was very pleased to discover that after the firmware upgrade the 'vibes' I felt from the phone decreased markedly. I can see that I'm connecting to the tower with a 'G' connection.
I don't know if it was the firmware, or firmware plus a change to a 'G' connection, but whatever it was, the change is welcomed.

For those that are curious, the vibes I get from the cellphone/tower connection are much stronger than from a Wifi connection.

Yes I believe that WiFi, cellphone towers, EMF's etc are going to become more and more of an issue in the years to come.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:29 am 
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Klusu wrote:
I don't believe any mouse emits any sound, high frequency or what.


Think again. My optical mouse (Logitech MX518) does emit a high frequency whine.
See: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=49599
and http://jdc.parodius.com/logitech/

If you have a Logitech mouse, there's a good chance that it does emit sound. Hold it next to your ear and you maybe surprised.

@NoiseFreeGuy: I would read up on shielding and grounding for electro-smog. There is quite a lot that can be done to minimize or even remove the EMF from things like power adapters (and all sorts of other electronic devices). Simply wrapping a metal wire cage around an adapter and attaching it to the ground of the adapter may do. I'm not an expert, but I know people who do these things (modify equipment to minimize field emissions).


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 8:51 am 
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Interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Non-optical USB mouse?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2011 10:21 am 
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I wish I had seen this when the thread was more active.

With my current system, I've had troubles with mouse whine being picked up in the audio headphone output. I'd estimate that its being put out at around 16-20kHz. The majority of time, its right on the edge of hearing, however, my wife and I are both blessed with above-average hearing and can pick it up as an annoying background noise when using headphones. Some simple tests confirmed that it is indeed linked to the mouse and not other components. More interesting is the fact that it got worse when I bought a new mouse.

As others have already hypothesized, I'd guess the OP is actually suffering from sensitivity to HFN, which has been documented (unlike sensitivity to EMF). In my research to find a way to eliminate the whine I was experiencing, I ran across people talking about one of the bigger changes from old ball mice to newer optical/laser mice: Faster scan rates. Modern mice actually brag about their faster scan rates as it tends to make twitch gamers happy (even if it doesn't actually help them). The faster scan rates may actually be the reason why my new mouse made an annoying whine, where my older mouse did not. The older mouse could have been making a similar noise, but at a much lower frequency, which would be both less annoying and more likely to be swallowed up by background noise.

So... suggestion here would be: Try crappier optical mice, specifically ones that will advertise their slow scan rates. If it is the HFN from signal processing, using a mouse with a slower signal will likely produce a less annoying perceived sound.

(...and this is why its important to identify a cause before trying to find a solution. It's nearly impossible to find mice with lower EMF radiation --as its almost zero to begin with-- but its easier to try and track down slower processing signals)


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