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 Post subject: Scythe Ninja 3 & Scythe Yasya CPU Heatsinks
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 1:06 pm 
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http://www.silentpcreview.com/scythe-ninja3-yasya/


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 11:53 pm 
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Somewhat dissapointing Ninja performance. Though it begs for some lapping / re-machining / flatting of the base to see just how much difference that makes! :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:54 am 
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Great review. If scythe had put a flat base on the Ninja 3, *or* had used a bolt-through system for the Yasya, I'd be rushing out to buy one at the first opportunity.

I really have to question their choice for pushpin design sometimes. Especially when they have already done a bolt through system before; surely the manufacturing cost, over the cost of pushpins, is negligible.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:32 am 
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A timely review -- I was vacilitating between the Ninja 3 and the Noctua NH-U12P and NH-D14 for my i7 870 in a Silverstone FT02. Looks like it's just the two Noctuas to choose between now.

Though I also hope it is just an issue with this sample; it would be a shame if the Ninja line ended in mediocrity.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:33 am 
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JeroenB, same issue was with the czech sample. So either their first batch is screwed, or it is bad design.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 4:58 am 
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I can vouch for the excellent performance of the stock fan fitted to both of these coolers.


Last edited by lodestar on Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:13 am 
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As a silence enthusiast who hasn't visited this site in a long time, this review came as a bit of a shock. I used to idolize Scythe and particularly the Ninja quite a bit (still have an original Rev B. working it's passive magic in my pc). It's good to see that the market has progressed so much, with the titans of today leaving the titans of my day in the dust, but to see my all time favorite Ninja being named in the same sentence as the likes of Zalman, is quite a punch to the kidneys.

Nostalgic reveries aside, am I going blind or was the concept of passive cooling left out of this review entirely? It could just be that the Ninja no longer rolls that way, but in its glory days, passive performance was part of what made it so special, so I think it should be mentioned in this review at least.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:15 am 
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That is a KOOL looking turbulence amelioration treatment on the Scythe Yasya.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:26 am 
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niels007 wrote:
Though it begs for some lapping / re-machining / flatting of the base to see just how much difference that makes! :)


CPU's also come with non flat heat transfer surfaces.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:36 am 
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Yes, but the surface of Ninja 3 is exactly the opposite of what is needed if the CPU has non-flat surface.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:07 am 
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Sylph-DS wrote:
Nostalgic reveries aside, am I going blind or was the concept of passive cooling left out of this review entirely? It could just be that the Ninja no longer rolls that way, but in its glory days, passive performance was part of what made it so special, so I think it should be mentioned in this review at least.

With an i7 test platform, it's no longer relevant for our large HS reviews... and we've never actually posted a serious review on passive CPU cooling. Our basic point of view these days (actually for a long time) is that in most cases, a wee bit of forced air cooling is far preferable to none. The drop in temps for not only the CPU but the VRMs and other hot-running components on the motherboard all spell improved longevity with no real change in noise (with the right fan choice). "Passive" CPU cooling is usually a matter of semantics anyway. How passive is it when there's a case fan 2-3" away?

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Last edited by MikeC on Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:17 am 
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I know it's kind of vain, but I just can't stand that stupid design on the top of the Ninja 3. Are they decals that can be peeled off? :?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 11:27 am 
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MikeC wrote:
Sylph-DS wrote:
...

With an i7 test platform, it's no longer relevant for our large HS reviews... and we've never actually posted a serious review on passive CPU cooling. Our basic point of view these days (actually for a long time) is that in most cases, a wee bit of forced air cooling is far preferable to none. The drop in temps for not only the CPU but the VRMs and other hot-running components on the motherboard all spell improved longevity with no real change in noise (with the right fan choice). "Passive" CPU cooling is usually a matter of semantics anyway. How passive is it when there's a case fan 2-3" away?


I see, that explains, I didn't realize it was primarily i7-oriented. Thank you for explaining.

I remember it did help get me that tiny bit of extra quiet back when I installed my ninja way back when. The fans on my case (real silent 120mm) were less noisy than the scythe fan that came with the ninja (I think a considerable part of that had to do with the ninja fan being hard mounted), so by leaving the HSF out I saved a bit of sound. But of course, my system could never properly cool an i7.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:01 pm 
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So what we have here then are two excellent coolers unable to reach their full potential (within the framework of their design) because of two stupid easily avoidable mistakes.
Or am I perhaps way off? too harsh?

From where I'm standing the Yasya looks mighty tempting. A proper mounting system is actually something which can be fairly easily fixed.


Last edited by walle on Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 12:01 pm 
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The review wrote:
However, to satisfy more performance-oriented and less noise-conscious users, the Ninja 3 ships with a relatively high speed Slip Stream PWM fan rated for 1900 RPM. On the bright side, there's a manual fan speed controller attached.


I would not describe it as a manual fan speed controller. What it does, based on Scythe's spec, to to vary the automatic PWM controlled speed continuously as a band of speeds, from a Low range of 470 to 1370 to a High range of 740 to 1,900 rpm. In practice this means that you can dial in the idle speed you want, and this will allow the idle to be set lower than the default setting with motherboard PWM control alone. In actual use the Low setting will allow idle speeds of 500/600 rpm to be achieved. At this level the fan is effectively silent. Equally, it retains PWM control so the fan speed will increase automatically under load, but set to Low this is limited to a maximum according to spec of around 1300 rpm.

Where the fan control does become a form of manual controller is when it is used with software which controls PWM fans such as SpeedFan or HWMonitor Pro. The software sees the fan speed setting as 0% duty cycle, regardless of where the fan controller is set. However what fan speed you get at 0% does vary according to the fan controller setting. And it will vary further once the setting in software is increased beyond 0%. This means that you can use a combination of the fan controller and the software to set a wide range of manual speeds.

With the software set to PWM manual control at 0% and the controller on Low I got 490 rpm, and set to High 750 rpm. At 100% this resulted in a top speed of 1450 rpm with the controller on Low, and 2080 rpm with it on High. These higher figures than spec are, I suspect, because at 100% the motherboard is supplying a touch more than 12v. But the main point is that the combination of software and the fan controller allowed a manual setting anywhere between 490 and 2080 rpm. More importantly perhaps, without the need for, or cost of additional voltage control hardware.

Incidentally Scythe sell this fan separately, as the Scythe Kaze-Jyuni Slip Stream SY1225SL12HPVC, so it can be deployed on other makes of cooler and also as a case fan.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 2:35 pm 
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frostedflakes wrote:
I know it's kind of vain, but I just can't stand that stupid design on the top of the Ninja 3. Are they decals that can be peeled off? :?


Perhaps Scythe should drop the Ninja 3 'design', and instead spend the money on a better base....


Last edited by lodestar on Fri Aug 13, 2010 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:47 pm 
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Also I like the more secure fan mounting on the Scythe Yasya compared to the slip'n'slide adventure on the Scythe Ninja.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:31 pm 
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I thought in earlier ninja reviews, the attachment of the copper pipes to the base was highlighted as a concern (Ninja 2 left more airgaps than Ninja 1), but didnt see if there was any improvement in that respect from the article??

Also, these two quotes seem contradictory:
MikeC wrote:
"Passive" CPU cooling is usually a matter of semantics anyway. How passive is it when there's a case fan 2-3" away?

MikeC wrote:
•Seasonic X-650 SS-650KM 650W ATX power supply. This PSU is semi-passively cooled. At the power levels of our test platform, its fan does not spin.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:32 pm 
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Jadukey wrote:
Also, these two quotes seem contradictory:
MikeC wrote:
"Passive" CPU cooling is usually a matter of semantics anyway. How passive is it when there's a case fan 2-3" away?

MikeC wrote:
•Seasonic X-650 SS-650KM 650W ATX power supply. This PSU is semi-passively cooled. At the power levels of our test platform, its fan does not spin.

Why? I don't see your point.

My point about "passive" CPU cooling is that a case fan so close to the HS makes a joke of the term "passive" cooling.

"Hybrid" cooling is the way Seasonic (and a couple other PSH brands that take the same approach) describe the way their fan operates -- off when not needed, on only beyond a certain temp. I was simply describing the way it works.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:08 am 
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frostedflakes wrote:
I know it's kind of vain, but I just can't stand that stupid design on the top of the Ninja 3. Are they decals that can be peeled off? :?


That's a great question..cause it looks stupid beyond belief. It would probably even keep me from buying the thing lol (even though none of my future cases will have side windows).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:48 am 
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Jadukey wrote:
Also, these two quotes seem contradictory:
MikeC wrote:
"Passive" CPU cooling is usually a matter of semantics anyway. How passive is it when there's a case fan 2-3" away?

MikeC wrote:
•Seasonic X-650 SS-650KM 650W ATX power supply. This PSU is semi-passively cooled. At the power levels of our test platform, its fan does not spin.


Jadukey you seem to bee assuming there are two places a fan could be but there are really 3 in this scenario.

1. Power Supply
2. Rear of Case
3. CPU Heatsink

Mike's "passive" comment is about 3 being fanless yet there is a fan in position 2 that provides airflow for a significant portion of the internals of the case.

The Seasonic semi-passively comment is totally unrelated to the position and/or existence of other fans in the system. It has a thermally controlled fan that stops completely at low temperatures.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:45 pm 
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SPCR, just out of curiosity, have you ever tried lapping the base of a heatsink before? It looks like your sample of the Ninja 3 could use it, and I thought it might be interesting to see how it performs with a perfectly flat base? I'm not going to run out and replace my CNPS9500 since it works perfectly well on my Q6600, but I'm still curious. :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:58 pm 
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Lack of a flat base does not seem to have hindered the Prolimatech Megahalems. Although there seem to be some initial quality control issues there's no doubt that Scythe intend to have a non-flat base too. Prolimatech indeed are quite opposed to lapping, as this quote from their web site illustrates "....Prolimatech does not condone any type of lapping done to the CPU or to heatsink base. Every Prolimatech's heatsink base is designed on a pin-point scale of how the base is to be flat and/or curved where it's needed to be. We have programed our machines to machine the surface in a very calculated way. Any after-manufacture lapping or modding done to the base will alter the design, hence negating its performance factor as well as its warranty....".


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 12:33 am 
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Problem is not with the non-flat base. The problem is while most coolers have a sort of U shape (read inside part is lower than the sides of the cooler), Ninja 3 has exactly the oposite - and this leaves a very big gap between the CPU and the cooler base, because CPU's are either flat or in the U shape.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:29 am 
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I still don't get why the yasya isn't called yasha.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 6:50 am 
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lodestar wrote:
Lack of a flat base does not seem to have hindered the Prolimatech Megahalems. Although there seem to be some initial quality control issues there's no doubt that Scythe intend to have a non-flat base too.


It's true that other manufacturers of heatsinks have purposely made non-flat bases, but they have always been convex. The reason is because apparently, most CPUs have a slightly concave heat spreader. The Ninja 3 has a concave base instead of a convex one, and when you combine two concave surfaces, you get a really big gap.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:55 am 
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Darth Santa Fe wrote:
It's true that other manufacturers of heatsinks have purposely made non-flat bases, but they have always been convex.


Well, certainly Prolimatech and ThermalRight are well-known for their convex base approach. Those that have checked say at least some of the Noctua coolers also have a convex base, and other Scythe models can be included as well, such as the Big Shuriken. Equally there are quite a number of reports about CPU coolers from other brands with concave bases. There also seem to have been some past Scythe models with concave bases, so the Ninja 3 does not seem to be unique in this respect.

Even with its concave base the Ninja 3 is still a good performer. If this was not quite good enough, I would simply pay out for an extra fan and clips rather than doing anything about the base. As the review points out this would still only bring it to the same level as the Yasya with one fan. But if that is the price of avoiding push-pins then it could be reasonable.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2010 2:55 am 
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This review at Xbitlabs consistently shows the Ninja 3 ahead of the Yasya:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cooler ... inja3.html
My guess is that Ninja 3 quality may vary between samples and SPCR got a lesser one, while Xbitlabs got a better one.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:21 am 
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MikeC wrote:
Sylph-DS wrote:
Nostalgic reveries aside, am I going blind or was the concept of passive cooling left out of this review entirely? It could just be that the Ninja no longer rolls that way, but in its glory days, passive performance was part of what made it so special, so I think it should be mentioned in this review at least.

With an i7 test platform, it's no longer relevant for our large HS reviews... and we've never actually posted a serious review on passive CPU cooling. Our basic point of view these days (actually for a long time) is that in most cases, a wee bit of forced air cooling is far preferable to none. The drop in temps for not only the CPU but the VRMs and other hot-running components on the motherboard all spell improved longevity with no real change in noise (with the right fan choice). "Passive" CPU cooling is usually a matter of semantics anyway. How passive is it when there's a case fan 2-3" away?


In our silent pc build here at NOTAM [1], the largest noise source (besides the hard drive) is the resonance from the motherboard caused by the CPU cooler. In a home theatre system, this doesn't matter, but in a sound studio environment (which we work with), this noise may be heard (especially if recording in the same room! :-) ) .

We haven't gotten our heads around testing it in the studio yet because we run our current computers in a different room and connect visual/keyb/mouse/sound by long cables going through a wall, but for others, it may be very relevant. But if it turns out that we can run our computers with the HR-02 heat sink (without any fans connected), we are going to run a few tests in the studio (after replacing the mechanical HD with an SSD of course).

[1] http://www.notam02.no/projects/index.ph ... iseless_PC


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 Post subject: Re: Scythe Ninja 3 Silent Edition
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:17 am 
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Scythe has released a new version of the Ninja 3. No modification to the heatsink but the fan is a 800 RPM Slipstream 12V instead of the 470-1900 RPM Slipstream PWM fan on the regular Ninja 3.

EU page = http://www.scythe-eu.com/en/products/cp ... rsion.html
US page = not up yet


In effect it will cool roughly the same as the PWM fan forced to 4V as seen http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1060-page6.html and will be that quiet (practically silent) but won't ramp up on a motherboard that has poor or no fan control.

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