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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 10:57 pm 
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vortex222 wrote:
seasonic, my favorite brand of all time. My old 300w super tornado is stull running in my file server after being used in my workstation for some time. It is probibly a good 7 years old now, having only needed to replace the fan. My current one is a corsair HX520 (seasonic made) which i purchased shortly before seasonic made there own modular PSU's (ohwell). And it has also had exceptional performance for everything i can throw at it. I know it will survive through many upgrade's and last me for years.

Cudo's to you guys for being one of the few company's around that strives to be the best and build a reputation on quality rather then marketing.



Thanks everyone for the vote of confidence! This is very nice to hear!
In regard to your comment about replacing your fan, this is also one of the reasons for us to make the Fanless because normally speaking, any moving part in the PSU is the part with the lowest MTBF and remove it will only ensure a longer lifetime of the total unit.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:20 pm 
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kater wrote:
Aard wrote:
mr. poopyhead wrote:
looks great! I'd buy it, EXCEPT....

even a midrange GPU like the GeForce 460 GTX requires 2x 8-pin PCI-e power... why doesn't seasonic include 2 plugs? 400W could easily power a 460 GTX...maybe seasonic rep can answer this.


I can't explain Seasonic's rationale but the 460W model does include an extra PCIe power cable if you don't mind paying a bit extra (no idea how much extra).

The other alternative is to avoid nVidia until they do a die shrink and hopefully get they're house in order. However given the reputation of the 200 series I'm not exactly optimistic.


First of all, 460GTX does not require 8-pin connectors - just regular 6-pin ones. Second, since its already in the market, why would you want a different card, say, the 2xx series? Or a 470?

Lastly, why can't you use the ever popular 2 molex > 6-pin cable?

On the other hand, I'm positive there eventually will be a "green" GTX460 with a single 6-pin and lower clocks. The regular one barely exceeds 150W under heaviest load anyway.
And there will obviously be cards like 455 and 450 that will give you similar performance and will have a single 6-pin power connector.

As a side note, AFAIR there are v few 400 watter (and lower) with double PCI-E connectors - one I remember is Enermax Liberty. And you are right - there should definitely be more 400W PSUs with dual VGA power cables...
_____

As to the reviewed PSU - I was reading it with a blissfully stupid grin, drooling and in awe. My wife asked "what's this? why so happy?". Didn't answer, she wouldn't understand...

Seasonic - welcome back to the throne!


Thanks Aard for the help!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:30 pm 
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kater wrote:
As a side note, AFAIR there are v few 400 watter (and lower) with double PCI-E connectors

Unfortunately while we all know that you don't need 1kW PSUs the specifications for these power connectors and getting NVIDIA and ATi to certify a PSU as being 'suitable' for big graphics cards requires them to have ridiculous power ratings. Look on the minimum requirements for any graphics card and they'll list 300W minimum for even a low powered passive unit. It's about certification and marketing.

Perhaps its about time we stand up and boycott all SLI certified PSUs? You can use a molex adaptor or better still do a cable mod and you will save money on your initial investment and electricity, heat and noise in the long run.

Seasonic Rep wrote:
In regard to your comment about replacing your fan, this is also one of the reasons for us to make the Fanless because normally speaking, any moving part in the PSU is the part with the lowest MTBF and remove it will only ensure a longer lifetime of the total unit.

I would also assume that the cost to you of warranty claims will be significantly lower with a fanless design. Offering a 5 year warranty should be no problem when using high quality parts and clever design. This is very good.

I am wondering with this design if it is workable in a case where the PSU sits on its side, like in a lot of HTPC and desktop units. Without any vertical ventilation (top to bottom air flow through the unit by convection) would it perhaps operate out of temperature range at full load?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 15, 2010 11:40 pm 
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Sorry for being lazy .... to answer 2 posts...

PSU Side Mounted: From our survey, most HTPC are fairly low power consumption systems, maybe 150w +/-... Based on our tests, under such conditions, the PSU will be ok on the side.

SFX: We are revamping our SFX line up before the end of the year. At this point in time, max output will still be 350w continuous. This is mainly because of the allowable height of the main capacitors on the PCB butting up to the fan. The planned 80PLUS is Bronze, for now but these things can change.... Per my earlier post, to achieve GOLD for such low wattage is difficult due to various reasons.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 4:26 am 
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Minor gripe, really really minor.. I forgot that SPCR reviewd the Enermax 87+ psu, and it would be in 2nd spot on the comparison table, but its not there. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:58 am 
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niels007 wrote:
Minor gripe, really really minor.. I forgot that SPCR reviewd the Enermax 87+ psu, and it would be in 2nd spot on the comparison table, but its not there. :)

Fixed.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:23 am 
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Out of stock at NewEgg. I guess that's a good sign, they must be selling pretty well. ;)

Any other places to buy them online, or is NewEgg the only one currently?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:27 pm 
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MoJo wrote:
The comment about going up to 700W with a fan is interesting. Makes me wonder why they don't release a version with a fan that only kicks in above 400W. With one of the 5000 series Radeons and a modern 6 core CPU you could have a system that runs fanless in normal use but can ramp up to heavy processing or games easily.


Yeah that interested me too...

But I guess you've almost already got that with the X-650 which (I believe) is exactly the same design, bar some heat-sinks and a fan.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:49 am 
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frostedflakes wrote:
Out of stock at NewEgg. I guess that's a good sign, they must be selling pretty well. ;)

Any other places to buy them online, or is NewEgg the only one currently?

I'm buying thousands of them, just in case. I'll start with one though. Everything else is not-great after this.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:45 am 
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NT wrote:
But I guess you've almost already got that with the X-650 which (I believe) is exactly the same design, bar some heat-sinks and a fan.


The X-650 is not exactly the same. The X-400 is part of an improved X-series range which includes a higher capacity fanless, the X-460 and the hybrid cooled X-560, X-660 and X-760. The X-460 and X-560 are already showing on the Seasonic website, I would suspect that the X-660 and X-760 will be out before the end of the year.

This is covered in more detail at http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/psus/2010/08/01/zero-noise-seasonic-s-x-series-fanless/2. Note the part of the article which says ".... If that's not enough though, Seasonic also told us that it plans to update the current X-650W and X-750W as 660W and 760W units with improved performance and reliability.....".


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:51 am 
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lodestar wrote:
The X-650 is not exactly the same.


Hmm, that's not what MikeC reckoned (aside from quietness of course)
http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/vi ... 614#515614
The review seems to substantiate those earlier viewpoints too...
For all performance metrics (aside from efficiency at sub 40w) it's no better.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:05 am 
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Until the X-560, X-660 and X-760 are out no one will know exactly what the differences are. On the Seasonic website there is an X-Series spec sheet, but it only covers the X-650 and X-750 models. The X-560 has a separate spec sheet, and the details are slightly different to the X-650/X-750. I would guess the '60s' are a way of introducing a new model without the potential confusion that an X-650 II would cause.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 2:12 am 
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On johnyyguru & here others have said that the the X-660/X-760 etc are nothing more than a marketing exercise.
As the x-750 and x-650 can easily handle such bumps....

And I believe reviewers such as Mike already have prototypes of said models, and so already have more of an idea than "spec. sheets"


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:42 am 
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Regarding the newer X_60 series, while it does seem like a marketing exercise, there's the very real possibility of evolutionary changes designed to improve production efficiency, the implementation of tweaks in the process as many thousands of units roll off the line. It may not make much of a change in specs or individual units, but such chnages help improve sample-to-sample consistency, QA, and lower cost as well. It's probably useful to think of the newer x models as v1.1 or v1.2.

Some technological features are less critical to the end user but extremely significant for production. For example... According to an unofficial chat I had with one of company reps, one of the most important aspects of the x-series' all-modular cabling is the production efficiency gained by eliminating the need to solder the wiring harness. Due to the number and size of the wires, this is always done manually. It is a major bottleneck in the production flow, and often a point where cold solder joints occur. This applies to all psu makers. With the x-series, the number of manual solder stations could be halved, and the number of QA rejects and failures in the filed are already clearly reduced.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:56 am 
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Thanks for weighing in Mike, as I suspected, no "major overhaul".
Just the the usual refinements assoc/w production delivery, which over time can have very real impacts, due to greater QA.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:32 am 
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MikeC wrote:
Quote:
With the x-series, the number of manual solder stations could be halved, and the number of QA rejects and failures in the filed are already clearly reduced.

Then i hope that will translate to a lower price, because it is a bit expensive, and i think that must be one of the reasons why I can only find 1 store in my country that sells the X-650 / X-750 powersupplies... (@ 179€ and 199€ respectively) :cry:
________________________________________________________________

I would like to know one thing about the X-400(
which I think might interest other people too, since it's sort of "the minimum cooling needs of the PSU to be happy"):
In a situation where the PSupply
- is in a separate-chamber(isolated from the other components)
- the chamber having positive pressure (only forced air on the intake),
- having its "out side"(the one with the power conector) being the only one in contact with the outside (so the air is forced through the PSU),
How much CFM would be needed to come from the intake for the PSU to not fetch ANY air from the outside?

Thanks,

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Last edited by OddSilence on Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:38 am 
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Seasonic Rep wrote:
-- Seasonic Rep


A question about the complete X series - will Seasonic start providing custom length cables and if not why ? In many SFF projects for example the 58cm long 24-pin cable is extremly long.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:25 am 
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OddSilence wrote:

I would like to know one thing about the X-400(
which I think might interest other people too, since it's sort of "the minimum cooling needs of the PSU to be happy"):
In a situation where the PSupply
- is in a separate-chamber(isolated from the other components)
- the chamber having positive pressure (only forced air on the intake),
- having its "out side"(the one with the power conector) being the only one in contact with the outside (so the air is forced through the PSU),
How much CFM would be needed to come from the intake for the PSU to not fetch ANY air from the outside?

Thanks,

This is not an answerable question -- "How much CFM..." type questions are never answerable because CFM itself is a totally nebulous quality for a fan: measured in free air w/o any impedance -- ie, it's a pure abstraction. Don't go there, there's nothing to be gained.

But I don't get why you'd say "for the PSU to not fetch ANY air from the outside?" The PSU has no fan so how could it fetch any air except via convection? And if there's an intake fan in the chamber, the air movement would be away from the fan (assuming at least, say, 300rpm) -- which presumably means out of the chamber through the x-400.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:45 am 
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Quote:
OddSilence wrote:
Quote:
I would like to know one thing about the X-400(which I think might interest other people too, since it's sort of "the minimum cooling needs of the PSU to be happy"):
In a situation where the PSupply
- is in a separate-chamber(isolated from the other components)
- the chamber having positive pressure (only forced air on the intake),
- having its "out side"(the one with the power conector) being the only one in contact with the outside (so the air is forced through the PSU),
How much CFM would be needed to come from the intake for the PSU to not fetch ANY air from the outside?


This is not an answerable question -- "How much CFM..." type questions are never answerable because CFM itself is a totally nebulous quality for a fan: measured in free air w/o any impedance -- ie, it's a pure abstraction. Don't go there, there's nothing to be gained.

But I don't get why you'd say "for the PSU to not fetch ANY air from the outside?" The PSU has no fan so how could it fetch any air except via convection? And if there's an intake fan in the chamber, the air movement would be away from the fan (assuming at least, say, 300rpm) -- which presumably means out of the chamber through the x-400.


Thank you for reading and answering my post;

Sorry, I tried to not make a long post, since I was afraid it deviated a bit from this thread's subject(the article), and ended up not explaining well(together with my fault too)...
- What I meant with "CFM" was "volume of air through the PSU (so, from the PSU point-of-view, despite any variable impedances that may happen in specific cases)
- About the "not fetching any air" I was exactely talking about convection, so to try to be more clear:
What I wanted to know was how much volume of air was needed to pass through the PSU coming from the AirInputs sides towards the Output side to be sufficient for the PSU (and in my thinking, the psu not getting air from the outside would mean that).
[In my case it's because I wanted to use it in a filtered-case and didn't want the PSU to get dusty-air from the outside; but (i think) it also can be seen as a measure of this PSU's cooling needs]

Thank you for your time and effort,

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:03 am 
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OddSilence --

The answer to your question is that it takes very little airflow to keep the X-400 cool enough. If the X-400 is the only vent through which the air can flow out of the chamber, then as long as you can feel a little air movement from the back panel of the PSU, then that's probably enough.

The X-650 fan basically doesn't come on till nearly 200W in 20-23C ambient, and the X-400 is something like an X-650 w/o the fan and much bigger heatsinks designed for low airflow. So if there some path for the heat from the heatsinks in the PSU to rise up and away, then it can probably handle >300W w/o any forced airflow at all. At full load, I'm not certain. In my 15 hr torture test, even though there was no exhaust fan in the PSU test hotbox, there were slow-spinning fans pushing some air through it (though not the PSU) and helping to evacuate the heat. (This was not unrealistic: If you had a real system that drew 400W, your components would need some airflow in the case to survive, too.)

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:27 am 
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@MikeC: I really thank you for your reply. [I was thinking of maybe using a 375RPM intake fan with filter, so, considering impedances, it would be a really low airflow]

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:56 pm 
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faugusztin wrote:
Seasonic Rep wrote:
-- Seasonic Rep


A question about the complete X series - will Seasonic start providing custom length cables and if not why ? In many SFF projects for example the 58cm long 24-pin cable is extremly long.


Currently our facilities in the US & EU are not equipped to deal with customized cabling as we will need equipment and materials in bulk. And to get custom cabling from the Far East is not feasible due to all the minimum order quantities from our suppliers. It is possible to offer a few types of cables, but this is still under consideration.

This is not to say we will not move in this direction in the future as then we can offer the full advantage of X to everyone.

I am sorry for not providing a more firm answer but this is our current situation, hopefully we can improve by next year.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Seasonic Rep wrote:
Currently our facilities in the US & EU are not equipped to deal with customized cabling as we will need equipment and materials in bulk. And to get custom cabling from the Far East is not feasible due to all the minimum order quantities from our suppliers. It is possible to offer a few types of cables, but this is still under consideration.


Actually, i mean more like you have now 58cm long cables in standard, then you would have few types of shorter/longer cables on sale (for example 20,40,58cm long) - this won't make the cables custom by the definiton, but will offer flexibility to customers. Or if you don't plan this, you could still think about possibility to buy replacement cables - this would make modding easier if someone would need shorter cables, but you don't provide them. Right now the only way to get new cables is if i RMA the whole PSU because of cable failure...


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:15 pm 
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Seasonic Rep wrote:
faugusztin wrote:
Seasonic Rep wrote:
-- Seasonic Rep


A question about the complete X series - will Seasonic start providing custom length cables and if not why ? In many SFF projects for example the 58cm long 24-pin cable is extremly long.


Currently our facilities in the US & EU are not equipped to deal with customized cabling as we will need equipment and materials in bulk. And to get custom cabling from the Far East is not feasible due to all the minimum order quantities from our suppliers. It is possible to offer a few types of cables, but this is still under consideration.

This is not to say we will not move in this direction in the future as then we can offer the full advantage of X to everyone.

I am sorry for not providing a more firm answer but this is our current situation, hopefully we can improve by next year.


I'd like to suggest instead of custom cabling you offer a set of long cables and a set of short cables as two accessory kits. In those nice micro duffel bags they'd fetch 15-20$C at retail. Include a set of SATA data cables and some single ended output cables for each of the PSU outputs. With the LONG, SHORT, and STANDARD sizes we'd all have a better chance of getting the right cable fit. Another accessory kit might be to offer just the raw connectors with pins with instructions. If there was a cable kit for my M12 I'd have already bought one.

Another advantage of accessorizing a PSU is that you can differentiate yourself from your competitors. Think of it...what PSU manufacturer offers a cable sets as an accessory ? People like myself would be drawn to your brand because of the attention to customer needs. There are many people sourcing the connectors and making their own custom cables.

I just noticed this was off topic but thought it needed to be said anyway...thanks


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2010 10:23 pm 
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deadbolt wrote:
Seasonic Rep wrote:
faugusztin wrote:
Seasonic Rep wrote:
-- Seasonic Rep


A question about the complete X series - will Seasonic start providing custom length cables and if not why ? In many SFF projects for example the 58cm long 24-pin cable is extremly long.


Currently our facilities in the US & EU are not equipped to deal with customized cabling as we will need equipment and materials in bulk. And to get custom cabling from the Far East is not feasible due to all the minimum order quantities from our suppliers. It is possible to offer a few types of cables, but this is still under consideration.

This is not to say we will not move in this direction in the future as then we can offer the full advantage of X to everyone.

I am sorry for not providing a more firm answer but this is our current situation, hopefully we can improve by next year.


I'd like to suggest instead of custom cabling you offer a set of long cables and a set of short cables as two accessory kits. In those nice micro duffel bags they'd fetch 15-20$C at retail. Include a set of SATA data cables and some single ended output cables for each of the PSU outputs. With the LONG, SHORT, and STANDARD sizes we'd all have a better chance of getting the right cable fit. Another accessory kit might be to offer just the raw connectors with pins with instructions. If there was a cable kit for my M12 I'd have already bought one.

Another advantage of accessorizing a PSU is that you can differentiate yourself from your competitors. Think of it...what PSU manufacturer offers a cable sets as an accessory ? People like myself would be drawn to your brand because of the attention to customer needs. There are many people sourcing the connectors and making their own custom cables.

I just noticed this was off topic but thought it needed to be said anyway...thanks



You make a good point deadbolt. I will speak to the PM about it and see, not sure on the possibilities. Yes, you are right, differentiation would be good.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:19 am 
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This is my next PSU :)

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:41 am 
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+1 for different cable lengths. I built a system with an X750 and got the wiring pretty clean, but that was in a big case. This is one huge advantage for modular PSUs, so please exploit it.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:45 am 
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HammerSandwich wrote:
+1 for different cable lengths. I built a system with an X750 and got the wiring pretty clean, but that was in a big case. This is one huge advantage for modular PSUs, so please exploit it.


Will take into serious consideration. Can't promise positive results but will try!

All comments, good or bad, are important to us so, please let us know your thoughts.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:05 pm 
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MikeC would the X-400 work well in a Silverstone FT02?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:31 pm 
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Compddd wrote:
MikeC would the X-400 work well in a Silverstone FT02?

It is a positive pressure case -- yes, air would flow through/out the psu.

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