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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:18 am 
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I wrote it on purpose, as I it seems everyone who asks this questions asks about formatting, and not partitioning, even if it has nothing to do with formatting. There are million ways to do it, but if he has access to any Win 7 computer, by far the easiest one is to put it in a USB caddy and do everything with a Win 7 computer.

There are loads of guides around the web, even on this site, but by using a Win 7 computer there is nothing which can go wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Location: US
Which one is a better hard drive in terms of noise then:

Samsung HD204UI 2TB

or

Western Digital WD20EARS 2TB

I want to get one just to store my media on. Are there much performance differences?

Thanks


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2011 4:20 pm 
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jamsponge wrote:
Which one is a better hard drive in terms of noise then:

Samsung HD204UI 2TB

or

Western Digital WD20EARS 2TB

I want to get one just to store my media on. Are there much performance differences?

Thanks


I have both. If you consider putting it in a NAS or in RAID in the future, get the Samsung. WD is putting newer and newer tricks in the firmware to force buyers buy the more expensive models for RAID use.

And in my opinion, the only reliable brands are Samsung and Hitachi.

The only downside of the Samsung is that it vibrates a lot (at least mine). So some kind of soft suspension is a must with the Samsung. The WD is a more quiet drive.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:57 pm 
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zsero wrote:
... in my opinion, the only reliable brands are Samsung and Hitachi.

yeh yeh! 100% agreed based on my experiences.

zsero wrote:
The only downside of the Samsung is that it vibrates a lot (at least mine). So some kind of soft suspension is a must with the Samsung.


awww what? mines in the mail at the moment so i can't provide feedback on my drive yet, but i will certainly keep an ear open for that.

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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
fumino wrote:
zsero wrote:
... in my opinion, the only reliable brands are Samsung and Hitachi.

yeh yeh! 100% agreed based on my experiences.

zsero wrote:
The only downside of the Samsung is that it vibrates a lot (at least mine). So some kind of soft suspension is a must with the Samsung.


awww what? mines in the mail at the moment so i can't provide feedback on my drive yet, but i will certainly keep an ear open for that.


I was more than surprised how much mine vibrates, it's comparable to 7200 rpm drives. I was running out of time, so returning and asking for a refund was not an option, but I was seriously considering it. It is cooler, quicker, (i believe) more reliable, and has better RAID support than any WD Green drive, but it vibrates like hell. It's in an external caddy with some soft cloth under the caddy and it's ok this way, but inside a case it was unbearable.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:18 pm 
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Location: Seattle, WA
zsero wrote:
I was more than surprised how much mine vibrates, it's comparable to 7200 rpm drives. I was running out of time, so returning and asking for a refund was not an option, but I was seriously considering it. It is cooler, quicker, (i believe) more reliable, and has better RAID support than any WD Green drive, but it vibrates like hell. It's in an external caddy with some soft cloth under the caddy and it's ok this way, but inside a case it was unbearable.


I bought 5 of these Samsung drives, and it seems there is lot of variance even with in same batch. I got continuous serial numbers from same batch 63,64, 68,69,70

Drive 1: very quite, no vibrations
Drive 2: Small vibrations
Drive 3: Small vibrations
Drive 4: Medium vibrations
Drive 5: High vibrations

So, it seems QC is not very tight.

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:23 pm 
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chinna_n wrote:
zsero wrote:
I was more than surprised how much mine vibrates, it's comparable to 7200 rpm drives. I was running out of time, so returning and asking for a refund was not an option, but I was seriously considering it. It is cooler, quicker, (i believe) more reliable, and has better RAID support than any WD Green drive, but it vibrates like hell. It's in an external caddy with some soft cloth under the caddy and it's ok this way, but inside a case it was unbearable.


I bought 5 of these Samsung drives, and it seems there is lot of variance even with in same batch. I got continuous serial numbers from same batch 63,64, 68,69,70

Drive 1: very quite, no vibrations
Drive 2: Small vibrations
Drive 3: Small vibrations
Drive 4: Medium vibrations
Drive 5: High vibrations

So, it seems QC is not very tight.

Thanks


Thanks for sharing your experiences! I was actually thinking about exchanging my drive as soon as the Hitachi 5K3000 gets to the shops. But since I did something with the vibrations and I use my hard drive in an external USB caddy, I am not that worried. But if anyone is looking for the best hard drive for storage, I think it will be the Hitachi 5K3000 series.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:11 am 
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I am surprised that you people are complaining about vibrations. I think I read in this topic that it does not vibrate. So it seems that it depends what piece man gets but it should not be like that. If it is only 5400 rpm and three platters. It should not vibrate at all.

When it vibrates I would suggest to return the HDD but it sucks. What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:06 am 
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gord wrote:
I am surprised that you people are complaining about vibrations. I think I read in this topic that it does not vibrate. So it seems that it depends what piece man gets but it should not be like that. If it is only 5400 rpm and three platters. It should not vibrate at all.

When it vibrates I would suggest to return the HDD but it sucks. What do you think?


I thought of same, but when I got only 1 Good drive out of five, and all the scanning did not find any errors, and there is no guarantee that I am going to get good one as replacement, I did not return.

Also in my case all the drives are suspended, so impact is less.

See the pics in thread to see how these drives are suspended.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=61190

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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:37 am 
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
chinna_n wrote:
gord wrote:
I am surprised that you people are complaining about vibrations. I think I read in this topic that it does not vibrate. So it seems that it depends what piece man gets but it should not be like that. If it is only 5400 rpm and three platters. It should not vibrate at all.

When it vibrates I would suggest to return the HDD but it sucks. What do you think?


I thought of same, but when I got only 1 Good drive out of five, and all the scanning did not find any errors, and there is no guarantee that I am going to get good one as replacement, I did not return.

Also in my case all the drives are suspended, so impact is less.

See the pics in thread to see how these drives are suspended.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=61190


WOW, that's a really nice case. Did you experiment with different suspension length? For me, some crazy long suspensions did the best for drive silencing I ever experienced. Like 4 pieces of 50 cm rubber on each side.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:41 am 
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zsero wrote:

WOW, that's a really nice case. Did you experiment with different suspension length? For me, some crazy long suspensions did the best for drive silencing I ever experienced. Like 4 pieces of 50 cm rubber on each side.


Yes distance between anchor points, tension in the cable does matter. I took middle of the road as I want the HDD Cage as small as possible and still have benifits. There is substantial difference betwen hard mounting these drives and suspending on elastic.

Just moving the drives to touch the sides is causing lot of vibration. When it is mounted inside case, they look like all standing on tails ( cable end), but suspended.

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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 6:26 pm 
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When my Samsung Spinpoint F4 HD204UI/Z4 2TB is turned off there is a weird relatively loud 'knocking' sound of slowing down spinning plates. Here is the record of the sound (please, turn the volume up to hear it):
http://www.avforums.com/forums/attachme ... 118_01.mp3
I have never heard such a sound in any other hard drives (including older Samsung hard drives).
Is your Samsung F4 HD making that noise when turning it off?


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:17 pm 
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dragonfruit wrote:
When my Samsung Spinpoint F4 HD204UI/Z4 2TB is turned off there is a weird relatively loud 'knocking' sound of slowing down spinning plates. Here is the record of the sound (please, turn the volume up to hear it):
http://www.avforums.com/forums/attachme ... 118_01.mp3
I have never heard such a sound in any other hard drives (including older Samsung hard drives).
Is your Samsung F4 HD making that noise when turning it off?


I think you should backup all your data and send the hard drive into warranty. Mine doesn't produce this noise, nor any harddrive I heard (50+) produced noise like this. I think it's the bearings.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:15 am 
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Got me a 2TB Samsung F4 as well, relieved some of my HDD space problems.

The only time I notice it is when it spins up. Vibrates a little, but not enough to rattle the case as some previous HDDs I had.

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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:08 pm 
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Has anyone had any experience with using these in raid with a pre Vista environment (XP/W2K3)? I'm looking at setting these up in a raid 5 in a W2K3 server and would like to know what I need to do to get them formatted correctly. If anyone could shed some light that would be great!

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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Tresstump wrote:
Has anyone had any experience with using these in raid with a pre Vista environment (XP/W2K3)? I'm looking at setting these up in a raid 5 in a W2K3 server and would like to know what I need to do to get them formatted correctly. If anyone could shed some light that would be great!


You can partition them under Win 7, and they should be aligned properly, then you can use them in older systems or you can use some aligning software like Paragon or Acronis (be careful people report that sometimes they cause data corruption, so it is best to do it on empty drive).

Read those articles:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2888
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jimmymay/archiv ... plate.aspx

and look for other threads here on that subject.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:57 pm 
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I don't know if RAID5 is compatible between W2K3 server and Win 7. So you might need to format them normally and align them. Acronis ISO is safe to use, it's Paragon which causes problems.

But I would strongly advice against any Windows software RAID! They are the most unreliable things in the world. I've spend many sleepness nights trying to get the data back from degraded W2K3 arrays. And they take ages, I mean ages to recover.

If you want reliable RAID:
1. buy the cheapest SATA RAID card which has dedicated BIOS / windows utility.
2. Only use RAID 1 (mirroring).


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:02 pm 
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Sorry should have said but I have a dedicated hardware card, Highpoint RR1740. Will I run into any issues with misalignment with this?

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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:08 pm 
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Tresstump wrote:
Sorry should have said but I have a dedicated hardware card, Highpoint RR1740. Will I run into any issues with misalignment with this?


As far as I know missalignement will only cause slower HD performance in some situations, nothing else.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:09 pm 
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zsero wrote:
Acronis ISO is safe to use, it's Paragon which causes problems.


Someone here:
http://forum.hddguru.com/sector-formatt ... ml#p123648
complains about both, even more about Acronis.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Tresstump wrote:
Sorry should have said but I have a dedicated hardware card, Highpoint RR1740. Will I run into any issues with misalignment with this?


Everything depends on the RAID card's driver. You'll have to ask Highpoint by email!

And RAID5 makes things even more complicated as it has stripe size, so it's 1. the physical sector, 2. the file system, 3. and the stripe size which has to be aligned correctly. And DOS/Linux based align tools might not recognize your RAID card, so it's even harder.

But if you google for "partition align tool portable", you can find a program which might help you. But only run it on empty partitions!


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:13 pm 
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dragonfruit wrote:
Tresstump wrote:
Sorry should have said but I have a dedicated hardware card, Highpoint RR1740. Will I run into any issues with misalignment with this?


As far as I know missalignement will only cause slower HD performance in some situations, nothing else.


Not true. It can give frequent system stalling, or even BSODs. It can slow down a computer so much that not even the Windows installer could finish.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:17 pm 
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dragonfruit wrote:
zsero wrote:
Acronis ISO is safe to use, it's Paragon which causes problems.


Someone here:
http://forum.hddguru.com/sector-formatt ... ml#p123648
complains about both, even more about Acronis.


I've quickly read into but I haven't find anyone mentioning that Acronis would cause data corruption. With Paragon it happened with me, but with Acronis I had no problems.

Actually the new versions of Acronis tools always align everything to 4K just like Windows 7, so if you boot Disk Director and resize your partition a few MB's then it will be aligned correctly.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:46 pm 
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zsero wrote:
dragonfruit wrote:
As far as I know missalignement will only cause slower HD performance in some situations, nothing else.


Not true. It can give frequent system stalling, or even BSODs. It can slow down a computer so much that not even the Windows installer could finish.


So why does it cause such troubles only with Advanced Format drives and not earlier drives, which also could have been not aligned:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jimmymay/archiv ... plate.aspx

Do these problems appear only when operating system hard drive is not aligned? Will non aligned second hard drive not cause only slowdowns?


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4 in Verbatim ext.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:35 pm 
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Verbatim USB 3.0 Desktop Hard Drive 2TB has Samsung HD204UI (reported by operating system).

1. That hard drive needs a firmware update, otherwise data might be lost according to Samsung:
http://www.samsung.com/global/business/ ... msg_id=386

However, it is not possible to apply Samsung firmware fix, because Samsung software (patch tool) does not recognize the drive, when it is in Verbatim USB enclosure.

I tried it even with USBASPI V2.20 MS-DOS Driver:
http://hddguru.com/software/2006.02.09- ... OS-Driver/
to no avail.

It is not possible to remove the hard drive from the enclosure in order to apply the fix, without loosing warranty, as there is "Warranty void if broken" sticker.

Is there any software, which would allow to update the firmware of the Samsung HD204UI hard drive without removing it from the enclosure?

Because of USB enclosure it is also not possible to use any tool for testing the hard drive surface (and SMART status), including Samsung's diagnostic software: ESTOOL v. 3.01 and MHDD (with ASPI driver it can detect it, but says 'drive not ready')

Any idea how to get around this?

2. Verbatim in their Quick Start Guide says (in capital bold letters):
"Verbatim will not be liable for data loss or any incidental, consequential or special damages, however caused, for breach of warranties or otherwise."

However, I believe that Verbatim cannot deny its liability for data loss in this case, because Verbatim is selling a faulty product (with a known fault, which can be fixed only by firmware update or hard drive exchange to a newer revision), and Verbatim, so far, has not provided any solution.

3. Samsung HD204UI hard drive, as most of other 2 TB hard drives is built in Advanced Format:
http://www.samsung.com/global/business/ ... &ppmi=1219

This means that it needs to have partitions properly aligned, otherwise it might work considerably slower and cause other problems.
This is so because with the emulation of 512B sectors, there is the risk that a partition could be misaligned compared to the 4K physical sectors - where it would be unwittingly started in the middle of such a sector. As a result, the clusters of a file system on that partition would end up straddling 4K sectors, which would cause performance problems.

Verbatim is providing the drive pre-formatted to FAT 32. But have they aligned it properly?
I think they should warn their customers about that aligning problem (particularly if someone would like to change formatting for example to NTFS).
Partitioning the hard drive under Windows 7 should align it properly. But Verbatim could provide their customers with a special tool from Acronis and/or Paragon to align the partitions (like WD did).

You can read more about Advanced Format HDs and the alignment problem on those pages:
http://seagate.com/docs/pdf/whitepaper/ ... ectors.pdf
http://consumer.media.seagate.com/2010/ ... ve-primer/
http://seagate.com/docs/pdf/whitepaper/ ... on_faq.pdf
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2888
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/jimmymay/archiv ... plate.aspx

4. Last but not least: why is warranty for Verbatim product lasting only 2 years in the European Union (and in most of other places in the world), while in USA warranty lasts 7 years:
http://www.verbatim.com/UserFiles/File/ ... rranty.pdf
http://www.verbatim.com/prod/hard-drive ... p/usb-3.0/ ?

Why do they discriminate Europeans regarding warranty so grossly?


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:27 am 
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As the data corruption can only happen if there is a SMART query, and as the enclosure doesn't support SMART, it means that the drive in this enclosure is not affected.

For the warranty: many companies do this, as it's much harder to get market share in the states. Many brands do Lifetime warranty in the states, which only does 2 or 3 years in Europe.

For formatting: Just format it in any Win 7 machine, and you'll sleep well.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:13 am 
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Did some light tests while striping two of my three HD204UI drives together just for fun. Noticed that while they benched just fine, and practical performance copying large files was fine, launching software got degraded performance. Primarily I clocked the game Call of Duty 4 loading a specific map over and over, with reboots in between to forego the disk cache and Superfetch service off(Win7 doesn't precache much, but anyway). Two drives in RAID-0 were consistenty 25% slower to start up a map than either of the three drives by themselves. I rebuilt the RAID pairing and compared with Windows's soft-striping only to get identical results all over.

I assume it's down to the lower seek performance compared to 7200rpm drives, but I'd rather have expected a much diminished return over actual degradation. I guess in the end this was for the best, keeps me from doing risky striping on two drives just for fun. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:37 am 
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mkk wrote:
Did some light tests while striping two of my three HD204UI drives together just for fun. Noticed that while they benched just fine, and practical performance copying large files was fine, launching software got degraded performance. Primarily I clocked the game Call of Duty 4 loading a specific map over and over, with reboots in between to forego the disk cache and Superfetch service off(Win7 doesn't precache much, but anyway). Two drives in RAID-0 were consistenty 25% slower to start up a map than either of the three drives by themselves. I rebuilt the RAID pairing and compared with Windows's soft-striping only to get identical results all over.

I assume it's down to the lower seek performance compared to 7200rpm drives, but I'd rather have expected a much diminished return over actual degradation. I guess in the end this was for the best, keeps me from doing risky striping on two drives just for fun. ;)


Access time has never been better with RAID. What's the point of the whole 10k and 15k market, and now SSDs, if everyone could just RAID two 5400 rpm drives together and get better access times.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:55 am 
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There have been tested 5 hard drives using different tests (mainly surface access times tests):

1. Samsung HD204UI in Verbatim 2 TB 3.0 USB enclosure.
2. Samsung SP1614N
3. WDC WD6400AAKS
4. WDC WD1600BEVS
5. Seagate ST320410A

The tests results are in 149 files of the screenshots of these tests, available to download in this thread:
http://forum.hddguru.com/surface-test-hdds-t18575.html

1. Generally Samsung drives (even the new 2TB Samsung HD204UI) seem to have considerably poorer quality of the surface comparing to the 3 years old (or so) Western Digital WDC WD6400AAKS.

2. I would like to see similar tests, in particular of other brands and models of 2 TB hard drives. Please upload your tests results in that thread (click the link above).

3. I wonder why in some hard drives slower access times can bee seen aligning in some diagonal patterns (in HD204UI) and why in some other drives (in WDC WD1600BEVS) a checkered pattern appears (only from the second half of the scan) which "shape" changes regularly depending on the part of the disk surface scanned, while in some other drives no such regular patterns are present?

4. Why is there such a difference in SMART status health notification between various software for Samsung SP1614N (it is red for most of the tests in HDD Health and everything OK in HD Tune)? There is also a significant difference in MHDD scan result and HDDScan result for SP1614N.

5. BTW, it took ca. 31 h to test Samsung HD204UI in Verbatim 2 TB 3.0 USB enclosure on USB 2.0 port.


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 Post subject: Re: SpinPoint EcoGreen F4EG 2TB HD204UI/Z4
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:53 am 
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Joined: Sat May 31, 2008 4:47 pm
Posts: 40
Location: home and away
Samsung customer service is rather not what you would expect:
http://forum.hddguru.com/verbatim-usb-e ... ml#p124618


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