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 Post subject: UPS For Seasonic X-650
PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:50 am 
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Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 12:54 pm
Posts: 18
Location: BC, Canada
Does anyone know if the Seasonic X-650 requires a UPS that outputs a pure sinewave? There was some debate in an earlier thread about the X-650, but it doesn't look like anything was ever concluded.

Pure sinewave UPS's are a lot more expensive than a regular one, so if I can get away with a more basic version that would be ideal.

Thanks.

-Peter


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 Post subject: Re: UPS For Seasonic X-650
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:22 am 
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Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 12:54 pm
Posts: 18
Location: BC, Canada
I e-mailed Seasonic about this, and there reply was "I would recommend APC battery backup for you." and then there was a link to Newegg for all of the APC UPS units. They didn't even address the question I asked. I e-mailed them back asking the question again, but I'm not expecting much after their first response.

Does anyone have any experience using a UPS with the X series from Seasonic?


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 Post subject: Re: UPS For Seasonic X-650
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:31 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 13, 2010 12:44 pm
Posts: 332
Location: Seattle
peternm22 wrote:
I e-mailed Seasonic about this, and there reply was "I would recommend APC battery backup for you." and then there was a link to Newegg for all of the APC UPS units. They didn't even address the question I asked. I e-mailed them back asking the question again, but I'm not expecting much after their first response.

Does anyone have any experience using a UPS with the X series from Seasonic?

Coincidentally, I have my X-650 running through an APC.

I can't find the paperwork and I'd have to move more furniture than I care to to find the model number, so I can't help you with the sine wave question.

My comp was off each time the power was knocked out, but the X hasn't flinched from being fed whatever the APC gave it until I shut it off too.


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 Post subject: Line Conditioners for Modern PSUs?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:20 am 
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Joined: Thu Feb 04, 2010 6:06 pm
Posts: 3395
Location: US
I use a Tripp Lite Line conditioner stabilizer. One of them is a Model LC-1200.

What is does is, as I understand it, is:
(a) stabilize the voltage (if it goes too low, it increases it, if it goes too high, it reduces it)
(b) generates its own sine wave. I think it does this digitally, but I am not certain.If it does it digitally, it probably has a lot of really high end harmonics in it.
(c) it serves a fused line protector in the event of voltage overloads and spikes

It does the same as your UPS except that it can only condition dirty electricity but needs some kind of incoming current. It has no battery to operate on its own.

It no doubt adds a layer of inefficiency. But it can't hurt and it makes me feel better about the safety of my computers.

I have always assumed it helps the PSU do a better job of maintaining voltage stability. In the past, the local voltage has been subject to some brownouts where the voltage was just lower than it should be.

I wonder if perhaps it is unnecessary with good modern power supplies such as the Seasonic X-650? Though I do run everything through it, printer, external hard drive docks etc.

Does anyone have any thoughts or comments on this in general? Is it needless redundancy? Is it smart? Is it something in between?

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 Post subject: Re: UPS For Seasonic X-650
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 11:46 am
Posts: 56
Location: The Netherlands
The x-650, like most modern PSU's, uses active PFC. That's why there's no longer a switch on the back for choosing between 110-230 volts, the PFC circuitry takes care of sudden drops in voltage, and buffers the voltage so that the current is pulled in form of a sinewave. So, you don't need a pure sinewave, and using a UPS only for conditioning the voltage is kinda useless.

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 Post subject: Re: UPS For Seasonic X-650
PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 22, 2010 12:54 pm
Posts: 18
Location: BC, Canada
Fire-Flare wrote:
My comp was off each time the power was knocked out, but the X hasn't flinched from being fed whatever the APC gave it until I shut it off too.


Until the battery kicks in, a UPS will just be providing current from the utility power (with possibly some power conditioning depending on the UPS). The whole simulated/pure sinewave thing doesn't become an issue until the battery kicks in (unless you have an Online UPS, which are rare for home usage, and quite a bit more expensive).

wouterr5 wrote:
the PFC circuitry takes care of sudden drops in voltage, and buffers the voltage so that the current is pulled in form of a sinewave. So, you don't need a pure sinewave


This directly contradicts what several people have experienced. UPS's that don't have pure sine wave output, typical have a stepped simulated sinewave output (instead of a smooth parabola, it's squarish). This can result in a state where there is a "zero output" state briefly from the UPS on battery power, and with some active PFC power supplies cause them to shutdown making the whole UPS utterly useless as a battery backup.

Also, there have been reports that this stepped simulated sinewave can cause the PSU to make a buzzing noise (a big no no for SPCR!). In extreme cases, some people say that a simulated sinewave can actually damage the PSU.

Cyberpower has a decent section on their website explaining the problem: http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/about- ... e-ups.html You can't completely trust them though, since they are trying to sell you a specific product to solve the problem.

From what I've read, this issue doesn't effect all active PFC power supplies. But I can't find any reliable information one way or another about the Seasonic X-Series. Hence, I am asking for actual peoples experience with a UPS and the X-Series.


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 Post subject: Re: UPS For Seasonic X-650
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:14 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:12 am
Posts: 2831
Location: USA
peternm22 wrote:
This directly contradicts what several people have experienced. UPS's that don't have pure sine wave output, typical have a stepped simulated sinewave output (instead of a smooth parabola, it's squarish). This can result in a state where there is a "zero output" state briefly from the UPS on battery power, and with some active PFC power supplies cause them to shutdown making the whole UPS utterly useless as a battery backup.

Also, there have been reports that this stepped simulated sinewave can cause the PSU to make a buzzing noise (a big no no for SPCR!). In extreme cases, some people say that a simulated sinewave can actually damage the PSU.

Cyberpower has a decent section on their website explaining the problem: http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/about- ... e-ups.html You can't completely trust them though, since they are trying to sell you a specific product to solve the problem.

From what I've read, this issue doesn't effect all active PFC power supplies. But I can't find any reliable information one way or another about the Seasonic X-Series. Hence, I am asking for actual peoples experience with a UPS and the X-Series.

I am wondering the exact same thing. I have a Seasonic X-660 and I am wanting to buy a new UPS to replace an old APC UPS (BE750BB), which is probably a bit underpowered and the battery will not last much longer. I have not experienced any problems with my current APC UPS, but don't recall if I had any outages (probably did, but only momentary). I could just unplug the UPS from the wall socket, but would prefer to not conduct that test.

According to APC, a non sine wave UPS will not damage a sine wave (PFC) PSU, but may not switch over fast enough if there is an outage. This seems to be a little-advertised fact, and I would therefore suppose that almost all mainstream systems from Dell, HP, etc do not use PFC PSU's in the USA (I believe they are required in EU if more than 75 watts), and the high-end PSU (mostly PFC) market is still relatively small. APC does sell sine wave UPS's but they are expensive (Smart-UPS line). Sine Wave PSU's from CyberPower Systems are more reasonably priced, but people complain about build quality and sometimes noise.


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