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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 6:16 pm 
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m0002a wrote:
One of the points being made is that even if Apple makes very good products ("fabulous" is an overstatement), the reason they cost so much is that a large percentage of the buyers are Apple cult members and that drives up the price to higher than what other companies are able to charge for comparable products.

Apple sold high-priced computers all throughout the nineties and they were close to bankruptcy. Where were the alledged cult members?

Then the iMac came. At a time, when just about 99% of the PCs in the world were beige boxes and the the other 1% were fashionably black boxes, their's came in tangerine and indigo blue and was transluscent. Of course, the flannel wearing nerds all over the world shook their heads on thought "who will buy this?". Well, turned out lots of people were into computers that looked stylish. (debatable, I agree)
The G4 Cube, the second generation iMac that looked like the Pixar Lamp, the Titanium Powerbook. They were all fabulous industrial designs. But no, for the average nerd who has as much fashion sense as Stevie Wonder, those could not have been the reasons people were buying them. Why weren't they paying more attention to RAM and Hard Disk size? Those people shouldn't be allowed to own a computer! They are, they are .... CULTISTS!

But once again, this is a free market economy and you can't try to tell people what they should look for to buy.
My girlfriend bought a car last year. She didn't care about the engine one bit. She didn't ask for ABS or ESC, mileage or service intervalls. She thought it was cute and she liked the color. And that was that.

Quote:
So market acceptance of Apple products is not an indication of their actual value, unless one is selling status, etc (which they obviously are).

Status and asthetics are two of the major secondary attributes of any purchase good. Why else would car companies bother spending money on a design team?

The overwhelming success of Apple products is proof that they sell the right product at the right price.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2011 9:46 pm 
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tim851 wrote:
Apple sold high-priced computers all throughout the nineties and they were close to bankruptcy. Where were the alledged cult members?

Then the iMac came. At a time, when just about 99% of the PCs in the world were beige boxes and the the other 1% were fashionably black boxes, their's came in tangerine and indigo blue and was transluscent. Of course, the flannel wearing nerds all over the world shook their heads on thought "who will buy this?". Well, turned out lots of people were into computers that looked stylish. (debatable, I agree)
The G4 Cube, the second generation iMac that looked like the Pixar Lamp, the Titanium Powerbook. They were all fabulous industrial designs. But no, for the average nerd who has as much fashion sense as Stevie Wonder, those could not have been the reasons people were buying them. Why weren't they paying more attention to RAM and Hard Disk size? Those people shouldn't be allowed to own a computer! They are, they are .... CULTISTS!

But once again, this is a free market economy and you can't try to tell people what they should look for to buy.
My girlfriend bought a car last year. She didn't care about the engine one bit. She didn't ask for ABS or ESC, mileage or service intervalls. She thought it was cute and she liked the color. And that was that.
The cultists were always there, just fewer of them back then. But I disagree that Apple was close to bankruptcy, although they were not doing particularly well at one point. This is just another of the ridiculous myths surounding Steve Jobs and how he supposedly saved the company.

Most people don't realize that Apple market share in desktop or laptops has been steadily declining over the last 30 years (although they have always done well in niche commercial graphics markets where margins are very high) and product revisions in those products you mentioned is not what has propelled them to what they are today. It has been the iPod, iPhone, and iPad that has revived Apple. So all the ballyhoo about brilliant design of the iMac and G4 Cube is bull. The PC and Mac (desktop or laptop) are basically on their way out as mainstream computing devices for the masses and are being replaced by hand-held devices of various sorts (phones, pads, etc). This trend will continue, and since Apple is well-positioned in this area, it should do well.

The question of whether their products are priced correctly is a different matter from whether Apple is a cult. To say that Apple products are priced correctly because people are willing to pay for them does not refute the cult status. Obviously, if a cult status exists, then Apple can charge higher prices, so there is no disagreement about that. But when Jobs is no longer around, the cult status of Apple is going to eventually start to fade away, and when that happens a lot more buying decisions are going to be made on other factors.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 2:46 am 
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m0002a wrote:
The cultists were always there, just fewer of them back then.

Where did the new ones come from and why?

Quote:
But I disagree that Apple was close to bankruptcy

We can disagree on what consitutes "close", but in Dec 1997 their stock price hit a 12 year low never reached again.

Quote:
So all the ballyhoo about brilliant design of the iMac and G4 Cube is bull.

Why did the iMac G3 sell well then? Why did their stock price surge?
Was it priced well and/or outperformed PC competitors?

Quote:
The question of whether their products are priced correctly is a different matter from whether Apple is a cult.

It is a simple economic statement.
The G4 Cube was priced too high. That's why it didn't sell. Apple has quite a few products in their portfolio that didn't sell well. Weird for a cult, huh.

Quote:
But when Jobs is no longer around, the cult status of Apple is going to eventually start to fade away, and when that happens a lot more buying decisions are going to be made on other factors.

Oh? I thought the iPod, iPad and iPhone make Apple. How is Steve Jobs leaving gonna affect anything? You seem to have a more cultish view of him than the people you accuse.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 3:35 am 
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tim851, don't be so logical :)

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:12 am 
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Quote:
Do you see any value in Micro-ATX or Mini-ITX then? What about Shuttle Cubes. In your world, they all wouldn't exist, would they?


Why dont you put some words into my mouth :roll: while you are spewing rubbish that no one has even mentioned.

Quote:
HP/Compaq, Dell and Acer COMBINED haven't had the net profit what Apple did last year.

If Apple was overpriced, you could say: If they would reduce their prices by 20% they would sell 30% more goods and end up making more profit. But seeing as Apple is probably the most profitable non-oil company in the world right now, you couldn't.

They are not overpriced, they are too expensive for you. Two different things.


Feel free to actually answer my point - no one is doubting that Apple make a staggering amount of profit (mostly not from PC's, although more than a few years ago).

Quote:
Yes. And this is a free market economy. People can pay extra for anything they like. Good thing too, otherwise we'd all drive the same car, wear the same thing and eat the same food.
If you paid 1000$ for your business suit, why should you let a cheap plasticy Toshiba laptop spoil the "ensemble".


You are arguing a point from a funny side angle without actually addressing the point at all.

Quote:
I just love how buying a computer has to be the most rational decision in the world.


That is why so many people also buy Sony laptops (over priced, not particulary reliable, pain in the arse to take to pieces, bought for the name and the expected quality the name brings). Sony desktop PC's (simply put a standard ASUS PC with a little trimming and an extra 20% on top, waste of space and cash). Do the owners of said items of computer equipment regret making that "non-rational" choice when I put it to them like that - most of them do.

Quote:
As I stated before, I don't have a preference of OSX over Windows or the other way around. I wouldn't mind the Macbook Air running Windows 7. Had I been looking for a 15 or 17 inch laptop I would most likely not have gotten a Macbook. It's just that the ultra-portable market is not very competitive below 1000$.


A wonderful politicians answer, question dodged by answer perfectly.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 4:33 am 
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Quote:
Most people don't realize that Apple market share in desktop or laptops has been steadily declining over the last 30 years (although they have always done well in niche commercial graphics markets where margins are very high) and product revisions in those products you mentioned is not what has propelled them to what they are today. It has been the iPod, iPhone, and iPad that has revived Apple.


I seem to remember that somewhere in the region of 10% of their profit and 50% of their costs come from PC's and laptops, whilst 30% of their profits and 10% of their costs come from iTunes, and 60% of their profits and 60% of their costs and 40% of their profits come from their toys.

Well done Apple you have turned a PC company into a toy and music company.

Quote:
The question of whether their products are priced correctly is a different matter from whether Apple is a cult. To say that Apple products are priced correctly because people are willing to pay for them does not refute the cult status. Obviously, if a cult status exists, then Apple can charge higher prices, so there is no disagreement about that.


Which is why I mentioned Sony. Sony used to have a cult status like Apples is today, but nowhere as strong, Sony always used to produce good quality kit and sell lots of it at a price mich higher than anyone else could. Even though their TV's were made by Sanyo people spent an extra 20% on the TV with a Sony badge rather than the internally identical one with a Sanyo badge. Apple have just gone one step further and are trying to sue other companyine for making toys that look similar (although they are not "saint white").

Quote:
Where did the new ones come from and why?


Another question to ask, why does the "Catholic Church" claim to have 2 billion followers. If you get into their heads, they will spread the "good word" for you, half of your marketting gets done by your followers - the best advertising in the word is word of mouth.

Quote:
We can disagree on what consitutes "close", but in Dec 1997 their stock price hit a 12 year low never reached again.


I knew they were doing badly, and also that their upward trend will eventually hit a peak.

Quote:
The G4 Cube was priced too high. That's why it didn't sell. Apple has quite a few products in their portfolio that didn't sell well. Weird for a cult, huh.


The answer is simple, their PC's didnt and dont sell well (compared to others and even their older models), their Laptops (like all laptops) sell well, just like "Apple stickers" that kids put on their own much cheaper Laptops........ If you ever want to find out how cool a brand is, just ask someone between the ages of 10 and 15...... It is obviously very cool to stick an "Apple" sticker of the "Dell" badge on your laptop.

Quote:
Oh? I thought the iPod, iPad and iPhone make Apple. How is Steve Jobs leaving gonna affect anything? You seem to have a more cultish view of him than the people you accuse.


Watch the video I watched last night.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:00 am 
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The thousand-dollar-suit case was just an example of a basic economic fact:
All products have a price-quality curve, and (if quality is the dependent) that curve is almost universally asymptotically horizontal.
The product you purchase is (assuming a so-called rational consumer) at the "sweet spot" of the price-quality curve, which depends on how much money you have and how you weight various things.

I grant that consumer decisions are not 100% rational, especially on "luxury" goods e.g. Apple products, but they definitely have certain qualities that make them more attractive than the alternatives. How you weigh the values of the features (and the value of the branding, itself) is subjective. Arguing that your valuation is better than someone else's is just silly.

That said, people can be insane. And some people do give SJ much more credit than he is due. Then again, he did save a failing Apple... So he is at least a great business person / figurehead (though, obviously, 1 is not a sample, so argue this point all you want).

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:21 am 
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andyb wrote:
Quote:
Do you see any value in Micro-ATX or Mini-ITX then? What about Shuttle Cubes. In your world, they all wouldn't exist, would they?


Why dont you put some words into my mouth :roll: while you are spewing rubbish that no one has even mentioned.

I didn't put words into your mouth. YOU said you wouldn't pay any extra for a small/sleak device because you could always hide a big tower. Well, a Shuttle barebone is at least twice as expensive as a comparable mainboard, case and PSU combination. The only advantage: size. A Mini-ITX board is more expensive than a comparable ATX-board. The only advantage: size.
So my question: do you think people with Shuttle Cubes are cultists too?

Quote:
A wonderful politicians answer, question dodged by answer perfectly.

Are you trolling?

Your question was:
Quote:
As a question out of pure interest, how much if anything extra would would you have paid for that 11" Apple laptop running Mac OS over an identical laptop running W7 64-bit.?


To which my answer was: I don't have a preference of OSX over Windows or the other way around.
If you lack the intellectual capacity to read that as "wouldn't pay extra", I can't help you. Are you a chatbot, or what?

---
I answered your "points" at length. But I'm not your response slave. I put forward points of my own. It's called a discussion. If you just pick any part of my lengthy replies that doesn't straightforwardly answer your questions, you might as well go ahead and **** ********.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:32 am 
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tim851 wrote:
Where did the new ones come from and why?
Where do they come from? I had hoped that you parents would have explained that to you by now.

tim851 wrote:
We can disagree on what consitutes "close", but in Dec 1997 their stock price hit a 12 year low never reached again.
Bankruptcy and 12 year low stock price are not the same. Please avoid the hyperbole. Such outlandish statements are indicative of cult worship of Steve Jobs, who just happened to be around when Apple moved from the computer business into iPod, etc.

tim851 wrote:
Why did the iMac G3 sell well then? Why did their stock price surge? Was it priced well and/or outperformed PC competitors?
The stock price surged because it was very low to start with. When you say "sell so well" you really mean "better than before," and not even a minuscule threat to WinTel architecture. When you are in a niche market for computers like Apple was back then (primarily corporate graphics market), then it doesn't take much to succeed.

tim851 wrote:
Oh? I thought the iPod, iPad and iPhone make Apple. How is Steve Jobs leaving gonna affect anything? You seem to have a more cultish view of him than the people you accuse.
I guess only time will tell. Let's check back in 5-7 years.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 5:59 am 
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Image

Here is my experience with Mac computers:

I have owned 3 for a total of 17+ years. 2 of those are still in my possession, and probably will be for many more years.

I have never had a virus or any malware.

I have had a few specific components fail, but none of these were fatal. The 1 machine that I had to retire (Mac IIcx) was because at 10 years old, it was simply too slow to be useful. It had the biggest HD available at the time -- an 80MB unit, and it had the most RAM possible -- 4MB. The design was elegant -- just one screw held the top cover on, and a the rest of the components were tool-less.

Here is my experience with Windows / MS-DOS computers:

I have owned 6 for a total of 18+ years. Only 1 of those (a laptop) is still in my possession, and it will last until either WinXP fails (again) or when the last USB plugs fail.

I have fought numerous battles with viruses and malware over the years. I have always had at least antivirus, and I have used software firewalls almost as long as they were available. I had to completely rebuild most of these, and several had to be rebuild more than once. The first PC I owned first ran MS-DOS, then Win 3.11, then Win98, and it completely failed within about 4 years. When ever I had to fix something, I often cut myself on some sharp edge, and I had to do BIOS updates and managing memory in MS-DOS and Win 3.11 was an exercise in frustration. The design was as clunky as you can imagine.

Here is my experience with Linux computers:

I have resorted to using SuSE, Lindows/Linspire, and Ubuntu on 4 former Windows computers, for a total time of about 10 years, sometimes as a dual boot with WinXP, or stand alone.

I have never had any virus or any malware.

I had to do reinstalls because I got over my head with Linux several times; for example to fix a failed video driver installation. I learned the hard way about typing long strings of text commands and paths to get "ordinary" things to work. I made serious efforts to try and run my Windows CAD program (DataCAD -- which the only reason I ever owned a MS-DOS and then Windows program, by the way; it is that good!) in Linux with WINE and CrossOver, and this nearly worked.

Now, with Intel-based Mac hardware, I can easily run DataCAD in Fusion/WinXP, and I can leave all the troubles of Windows behind. I still have to run robust antivirus and firewall in WinXP, but since it only runs for a limited time, I have (so far) escaped any virus or malware. And with all my data accessible from OS X, I can wipe out any problems by restoring the original WinXP installation. This is the best of both worlds -- I have the security of OS X and the ability to run any program I need to, in either operating system.

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:02 am 
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m0002a wrote:
tim851 wrote:
Where did the new ones come from and why?
Where do they come from? I had hoped that you parents would have explained that to you by now.

Ah, I see, the Mac enthusiasts are all 14 years and younger then. Makes perfect sense.

Quote:
Bankruptcy and 12 year low stock price are not the same. Please avoid the hyperbole.

Okay.

Quote:
not even a minuscule threat to WinTel architecture.

So? Apple doesn't compete with the non-existent Wintel-Empire, but with HP, Dell, Toshiba, etc...

http://news.cnet.com/iMac-sales-have-Ap ... 19466.html

Quote:
PC Data said in a report issued earlier this week that the iMac was the top selling PC in November, representing approximately 7.1 percent of all consumer PCs sold in the month.

That didn't include business PCs or Dell, Gateway and other direct sellers. Still, the original iMac was a major success. Culturally even more so.

You say it wasn't the design --- what was it then?

---
I think I'm beginning to see where the Cult is at.

There are these people who believe that the success of Apple can only be the result of idiot fanboys.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:06 am 
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Quote:
The product you purchase is (assuming a so-called rational consumer) at the "sweet spot" of the price-quality curve, which depends on how much money you have and how you weight various things.

I grant that consumer decisions are not 100% rational, especially on "luxury" goods e.g. Apple products, but they definitely have certain qualities that make them more attractive than the alternatives. How you weigh the values of the features (and the value of the branding, itself) is subjective. Arguing that your valuation is better than someone else's is just silly.


I agree with all of the above quote.

Quote:
I didn't put words into your mouth. YOU said you wouldn't pay any extra for a small/sleak device because you could always hide a big tower.


That is because you have taken a single sentence from my post and put it in a totally different perspective. The reason why I failed to mention anything else is because I had specced the machine as a good quality mATX machine.

You will notice when you re-read my post that the example PC that I had just specified had included a Coolermaster mATX case, specificially the Elite 342.

http://www.ebuyer.com/product/233665

Quote:
Are you trolling?

Your question was:
Quote:
As a question out of pure interest, how much if anything extra would would you have paid for that 11" Apple laptop running Mac OS over an identical laptop running W7 64-bit.?

To which my answer was: I don't have a preference of OSX over Windows or the other way around.
If you lack the intellectual capacity to read that as "wouldn't pay extra", I can't help you. Are you a chatbot, or what?


So your re-submitted answer would ideally be written as follows, "I would pay exactly the same amount for that identical laptop running W7 64-bit because of its better design, touchpad, keyboard and screen", that was so easy I wonder why you didnt say so yourself, my answer would be "yes the Apple is a nicer product all round but I would not pay the extra [insert large sum] for it, it is simply not that much better than its vastly cheaper alternatives"

That is the kind of answer most people would give, you failed to do so, so I mocked you for beating round the bush, however now that you have given your answer I will drop the point - as my "question out of pure interest" has been satisfied.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:13 am 
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Quote:
So? Apple doesn't compete with the non-existent Wintel-Empire, but with HP, Dell, Toshiba, etc...

http://news.cnet.com/iMac-sales-have-Ap ... 19466.html


Their weblink to "PC Data" doesnt work, and one-month is a lot different from a year - real data please.

Quote:
There are these people who believe that the success of Apple can only be the result of idiot fanboys.


I think that you will find that most people believe that it is actually very clever marketting, a tight stranglehold on their products, and a cash-cow, the idiots help a lot by parting with ttheir parents hard earned cash, and their idiot parents help a lot by giving it to them.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:14 am 
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Please folks -- just because people have different opinions and make different choices, doesn't make one person right and the other person wrong, or an idiot, or a cult member, or a religious fanatic.

Are you satisfied with your choices? Great -- please allow for other people to come to their own choices!

This thread is on probation. Please keep it civil, and avoid generalities and dispersive language.


[/moderator's hat]

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:30 am 
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Thanks Neil for your honesty and avioding the bullshit and flies that this thread was always going to attract.

As you have just confirmed some of my points about the lower quality PC hardware that is so abundant, and the higher quality Mac hardware can you also give us your perspective on the cost differences involved so it can be quantified.

As far as viruses and malware are concerned, Apple is obviously no better than Linux but that is as much to do with popularity as it is to do with anything else, no doubt the coding will help/hinder in some form as Mac OS has its roots intertwined with the UNIX kernel.

Regarding software woes (not including viruses/malware), is it your personal opinion that the problems that you had with Linux would largely vanish if someone was making and selling a polished OS like MS and Apple do, and also would you have any personal issues (not legal ones) with installing and using Mac OS on a PC.?


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:53 am 
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andyb wrote:
Regarding software woes (not including viruses/malware), is it your personal opinion that the problems that you had with Linux would largely vanish if someone was making and selling a polished OS like MS and Apple do, and also would you have any personal issues (not legal ones) with installing and using Mac OS on a PC.?
I think it is generally recognized that the hardest part of running/using linux is the initial setup? Nothing like having to wrap a windows driver to get your wireless working. Of course, if you were building the machine, you could select components with open drivers [edit: and preferably kernel-contained] (as any OEM would in this case). The netbook market was a great example of this when ARM was the only option. If anything, I have an easier time on Ubuntu than Windows when looking for quality software. I type "chess" into the package manager and am served with many great options! Three clicks and my choice is installed! And these days WINE seems to work with everything I try.

There is definitely a marketability problem, though, as Linux is currently equated to "complicated computer geek stuff" at the moment. This is probably the biggest thing holding Linux offerings back (okay, that and fears of software compatibility). My guess is that this will slowly change over the next decade, as user-friendly distributions and web-based-applications fully mature.

Seems like this would also be a neat way for OEMs to distinguish themselves, with their own UI flavors.

Obviously the issues with cheap hardware would persist (per Neil's post).

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:41 am 
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NeilBlanchard wrote:
Here is my experience with Windows / MS-DOS computers:
...
I have fought numerous battles with viruses and malware over the years. I have always had at least antivirus, and I have used software firewalls almost as long as they were available. I had to completely rebuild most of these, and several had to be rebuild more than once.

And this is why I usually recommend Macs. I don't use a Mac myself but my experience is that people who use Macs can handle themselves and don't bother me while people who use Windows pester me with their problems and keep asking me to do things which are in violation of any number of licenses or even downright illegal. I guess that makes me a cultist.

On the other hand, I've been using Windows for over 15 years now and I've fought numerous battles with malware... on other people's computers. I've never used a so-called anti-virus and never had an issue with malware on my computers or any of the computers I've set up without giving the user the admin password and without installing any security software. So malware is not necessarily a problem on Windows.

NeilBlanchard wrote:
Now, with Intel-based Mac hardware, I can easily run DataCAD in Fusion/WinXP, and I can leave all the troubles of Windows behind. I still have to run robust antivirus and firewall in WinXP, but since it only runs for a limited time, I have (so far) escaped any virus or malware.

As I noted above, there's no need to run security software and your XP VM will never run into a malware problem however long it runs... as long as you only use it for CAD. You don't even need to bother with updates.
You could take it off the network, use your VM software's facilities for file sharing instead and that would give you a bulletproof guarantee but that's not even necessary: if your XP VM is behind a virtual NAT and you don't run network clients, it's about good as if it was off the network. (I've never used Fusion but I assumed it has the features of other VMWare products.)


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 7:54 am 
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andymcca wrote:
I think it is generally recognized that the hardest part of running/using linux is the initial setup? Nothing like having to wrap a windows driver to get your wireless working. Of course, if you were building the machine, you could select components with open drivers ...

It depends. I rarely use free operating system on laptops because of such issues. But the latest desktop install I've done was much easier and faster than a Windows install. I didn't choose the hardware for compatibility but it just worked, as I had expected. The most annoying part was that it forced me to pick a password (couldn't they put a "I don't want no passwords!" checkbox in the installer?). I think picking your keyboard's language could also be made easier (there are so many of them!). The fresh install was much more functional than Windows obviously thanks to the bundled software.
The trouble comes later if you want to run software that isn't supported. But if everything you want to use is in the repos of your favorite free OS, I would definitely recommend against using Windows!

andymcca wrote:
Obviously the issues with cheap hardware would persist (per Neil's post).

expensive != quality


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:24 am 
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HFat wrote:
On the other hand, I've been using Windows for over 15 years now and I've fought numerous battles with malware... on other people's computers. I've never used a so-called anti-virus and never had an issue with malware on my computers or any of the computers I've set up without giving the user the admin password and without installing any security software. So malware is not necessarily a problem on Windows.
The best zombies are ninja zombies. Just because it didn't cause you problems doesn't mean your machine is not eating cyberbrains :)
Wasn't there a paper a while ago which found the average unpatched XP machine lasted for only a few minutes without a firewall before being infested by a worm of some sort? Granted, it is difficult to be either unpatched or firewall-less these days.
I am sure you are very responsible in your computing habits, but it is tough to be sure you have not been infected when adds on popular websites sometimes carry malicious code. And you must not use the internet for it's true purpose: porn. :)
ref: avenue q www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-TA57L0kuc

HFat wrote:
andymcca wrote:
Obviously the issues with cheap hardware would persist (per Neil's post).

expensive != quality
Cheap != inexpensive :). Reminds me of the story about the beer which had sales increase after a price increase.

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 8:55 am 
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andymcca wrote:
Wasn't there a paper a while ago which found the average unpatched XP machine lasted for only a few minutes without a firewall before being infested by a worm of some sort?

NAT protects you against this. Most of the general public and those equipped with clue have been protected for many years now. Those using dial-up may still be at risk. And those who touch settings without knowing what they're doing of course...

andymcca wrote:
but it is tough to be sure you have not been infected when adds on popular websites sometimes carry malicious code. And you must not use the internet for it's true purpose: porn. :)

I use porn of course. Most ads aren't a problem. You can never be 100% certain unless you lock everything up but I am quite sure I am not infected. As I said, I've cleaned other people's computers many times so I have some knowledge of the typical symptoms.
Don't use IE, WMP and stuff. If you want to use Java Script and Flash on every site (why? so that you can see animated ads?), you should keep your browser and Flash updated. Even if you don't, most malware still seem to affect only people who run Windows with admin priviledges.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 10:33 am 
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HFat wrote:
andymcca wrote:
Wasn't there a paper a while ago which found the average unpatched XP machine lasted for only a few minutes without a firewall before being infested by a worm of some sort?

NAT protects you against this. Most of the general public and those equipped with clue have been protected for many years now. Those using dial-up may still be at risk. And those who touch settings without knowing what they're doing of course...
Wait, I'm not supposed to forward ports 0x0000-0xFFFF to my computer to make bit torrent faster? :D (I've actually seen several people do this to their game consoles, lately...)

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:11 am 
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In around 1991 I was invited to attend a focus group that a marketing company was organising around a new advertising campaign. I was invited purely because I had listed some computer hardware (non Apple) in a periodical that ran free ads (Loot) which is where they got my phone number.
Before the end of the evening I guessed that it was for an Apple campaign although I wasn’t an Apple computer user.
At the end of the evening it was announced that it was for Apple and I was rather surprised how excited the Apple owners in the room became. I found it slightly creepy for some reason.

I have joked over the years how Apple reminds me of Scientology in some ways. Obviously that’s not meant to be a serious comparison but there are some elements of that comparison that still resonate with me.
I’m not naive enough to think that everybody that uses an Apple product is infected with the ‘cult virus’ though; so maybe Mac hardware doesn’t get viruses but a minority of Mac users do! :)

If I was a Mac user I’m sure I wouldn’t let my perceived cult thing get in the way of enjoying the Apple experience. I’m on my second iPod, both 160GB Classics, and the things that make them stand out for me are the design, drive capacity (which is the only reason I bought them) and iTunes which I like enough to use as my main Audio player.
So I appreciate the simplicity of iTunes but find the iPod O/S itself very lacking in features. It’s a major step back from what I was used to with the Creative Zen that I had previously which was bulky and topped out at 60GB.

Coincidentally I took delivery of my first ever Mac computer yesterday so it will be interesting to see how I get on with it; it’s the previous generation MacBook Pro 13.3.
I bought it to run Windows but it will be interesting to get my hands on OSX properly for the first time. I’ve had very limited exposure in the past and was initially very impressed but then I found a hardware limitation that amazed me; that was years ago though.

Coming back to advertising, an abiding connection for me to Apple is the infamous Orwellian Super bowl TV campaign, the irony of which I find staggering from the perspective of 2011.
Totalitarianism is different from a cult though but it would be interesting to hear from a student of sociology/political science on how they cross over.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:31 am 
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NeilBlanchard wrote:
Image
Maybe you can explain why you post so many times in this forum on controversial issues, usually claiming that some other person, organization, or company is wrong? Oh, I forgot, you are always right, and those who disagree with you are always wrong, and since you are all-powerful moderator, you will censor those who disagree with you.

Regarding the issue of viruses and malware, the reasons why Windows is affected much more than other OS's is obvious:

1. Windows has a much, much larger market share than Mac, so virus authors get more effect by writing them for Windows.

2. Many of the viruses are written by Mac or Linux cultists who are specifically out to destroy/discredit the evil Windows, so their own cult can prosper.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 11:40 am 
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smilingcrow wrote:
I have joked over the years how Apple reminds me of Scientology in some ways. Obviously that’s not meant to be a serious comparison but there are some elements of that comparison that still resonate with me.
I am not an expert on Scientology, but many Apple cultists are far crazier than the Scientologists I have known (although I never got into a discussion about Scientology with them).

I am not suggesting that all Apple product owners are cultists, but many are. As I mentioned before, I have an iPod and like it a lot (I use it mostly hooked up to my car audio system). I previously have used a Lisa and Mac, and they are fine if you only need the somewhat limited range of software that runs on Apple computers and are willing to pay extra for the hardware, and don't want to customize the hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:02 pm 
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m0002a wrote:
Maybe you can explain why you post so many times in this forum on controversial issues, usually claiming that some other person, organization, or company is wrong? Oh, I forgot, you are always right, and those who disagree with you are always wrong, and since you are all-powerful moderator, you will censor those who disagree with you.

Regarding the issue of viruses and malware, the reasons why Windows is affected much more than other OS's is obvious:

1. Windows has a much, much larger market share than Mac, so virus authors get more effect by writing them for Windows.

2. Many of the viruses are written by Mac or Linux cultists who are specifically out to destroy/discredit the evil Windows, so their own cult can prosper.

It's a fun link to XKCD, which all card carrying geeks must appreciate on some level, or they are out of the geek club. It was meant to be ironic. I'm sure it was meant as a commentary on certain other peoples' conspiracy theories and caustic posts :)
Edit: or it could have been a commentary on the futility of his own posting given the way the internet works :)

m0002a wrote:
smilingcrow wrote:
I have joked over the years how Apple reminds me of Scientology in some ways. Obviously that’s not meant to be a serious comparison but there are some elements of that comparison that still resonate with me.
I am not an expert on Scientology, but many Apple cultists are far crazier than the Scientologists I have known (although I never got into a discussion about Scientology with them).
I don't know about the masses, but I give L Ron the crazy title over Jobs.

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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:11 pm 
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andymcca wrote:
I don't know about the masses, but I give L Ron the crazy title over Jobs.
Steve Jobs is not crazy. Only the people who think he is God are crazy.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:16 pm 
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andymcca wrote:
It's a fun link to XKCD, which all card carrying geeks must appreciate on some level, or they are out of the geek club. It was meant to be ironic. I'm sure it was meant as a commentary on certain other peoples' conspiracy theories and caustic posts :)
Edit: or it could have been a commentary on the futility of his own posting given the way the internet works :)
I don't think he was joking about this thread being on probation, just because it was stated that some Apple devotees are cultists.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:27 pm 
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It's a shame people don't get your humour, m0002a.


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 12:55 pm 
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andymcca wrote:
I don't know about the masses, but I give L Ron the crazy title over Jobs.

Crazy is such a subjective term though. :)
There’s a famous quote which may or not be true but is attributed to L. Ron in which he supposedly said and I paraphrase, “If you really want to make serious money then start your own religion”.
So was he is one of the most successful scam artists or tricksters of the 20th century or just plain crazy!
I’m no fan of Scientology and wouldn’t put Apple’s products in the same category as Scientology but there has always been too much of a stench of the ‘snake oil’ salesman around Apple and Steve Jobs to me.
I admit that I’m very much in the Bill Hicks camp when it comes to marketing so I may not have the most objective perspective. So here’s my opportunity to pimp one of the funniest comedians of all time that I was fortunate enough to catch live a few times; in this clip he is talking about his views on marketing – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo


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 Post subject: Re: Steve Jobs is the Messiah and Apple is a Religion
PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2011 6:18 pm 
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smilingcrow wrote:
Crazy is such a subjective term though. :)
There’s a famous quote which may or not be true but is attributed to L. Ron in which he supposedly said and I paraphrase, “If you really want to make serious money then start your own religion”.
So was he is one of the most successful scam artists or tricksters of the 20th century or just plain crazy!
I don't want to sound like I am endorsing Hubbard or Scientology, but I am pretty sure you are taking his statement out of context. What he meant was that if an organization is classified as a religion (as opposed to just self-help therapy of some sort) it is tax-exempt and you get lots of tax deductible donations, and one can make a lot more money that way than being a psychiatrist who pays taxes (for example) and who doesn't get many donations. I suspect that Hubbard saw religion as nothing more than organizations that made members into better persons, and made them feel better about themselves, which is sort of what Scientology claims to do.


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