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 Post subject: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:56 pm 
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http://www.silentpcreview.com/antec-kuhler


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:39 pm 
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2005 Ninja SCNJ-1000 FTW :twisted:

Only instance it'd be worth buying these Antecs, is as 2nd hand units listed on ebay at maybe 30% original price, being sold by someone who planned to replace their boring TRUE or Mugen, only to find out that both temps and noise are actually higher.

Typo patrol - search for "based on based on" on 1st or 2nd page.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:08 am 
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I always thought that water cooling did not stack up against a good air cooled setup with the noise perspective thrown in.

Good to see confirmation.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:31 am 
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webs0r wrote:
I always thought that water cooling did not stack up against a good air cooled setup with the noise perspective thrown in.

Good to see confirmation.

If you are willing to buy all your own parts (not a kit or all in 1 like this one), and spend hundreds of dollars and hours and hours of research you can achieve better results than air. A high end complete WC system (cooling CPU, GPU and maybe even motherboard) is a sight be behold, and very quiet and cool.

Buying these types of cheap (compared to normal WC setups. still pricey for cooling) all-in-1 watercooling systems is pointless. If you want watercooling then you need to jump in, buy all your own parts and be willing to put the work in. It wont be easy, but it can be very satisfying.

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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:03 am 
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IMO, quiet watercooling is really about 2 things: pump noise & radiator size. These integrated units are seriously lacking in radiator.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:14 am 
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Page 5 wrote:
... 8 dB is impossible at any speed other than 0 RPM.
It's not exactly impossible. With your typical background noise of 10.7dB(A) an 8.0 dB(A) addition would end up at a combined total of 12.6 dB(A).
Of course that's still less than what you measured for the pump only...

Page 6 wrote:
Nexus fans overall performance was poorer, which is surprising given their history of superiority over the stock fans of most tested heatsinks.
It's no surprise to me, since the Nexus fans are ill suited for moving air through a dense restriction.
In this particular case there are some other fans with better pressure/noise ratio that should come in handy, like Gentle Typhoon and Noctua NF-P12.

Cheers
Olle


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:21 am 
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FartingBob wrote:
Buying these types of ... all-in-1 watercooling systems is pointless.
In most cases, yes, but it's perfect for a LAN party rig or other "mobile" computer where survivability to hard bumps and rough handling is more important than low noise.
(I wouldn't mount a 1kg heatsink on a motherboard if I knew the computer then was to be dropped a meter onto a hard surface before use.)

Cheers
Olle


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 6:32 am 
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Olle P wrote:
(I wouldn't mount a 1kg heatsink on a motherboard if I knew the computer then was to be dropped a meter onto a hard surface before use.)

This some kind of LAN party ritual? Perhaps how rookies are treated before they're allowed to partake in a CoD session?

There are ways to secure heavy tower HSF for overseas shipment. Don't see why traveling gamers wouldn't employ, say, a Ninja Wire.
Still tho, your point is valid - simple hydro sets are perfect for LAN parties - nobody is going to complain on the noise and one's rep is gonna rocket when other's see the LED illuminated Antec logo instead of a stack of boring alu fins.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:41 pm 
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Hey guys, I accidentally swapped the reference fan results for the 920 and 620 on page 6. Corrections have been made.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 7:07 pm 
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When you look at it, these are really only air coolers with a displaced fin array and active circulation through the heatpipes. An oversimplification, yes, but so is referring to these awful things as water-cooling (especially considering the likely composition of the coolant contains far less water than gunk).

Here's where a proper H2o system shows its mettle: longevity. This disposable garbage is trash when the next socket comes out, while a properly researched H2o loop is only a block adapter away from not only working with new hardware, but exceeding the performance of any air cooler at 1/2 the [noise] volume.

But there's the problem. Any such system is likely to require more up-front from the user, in terms of time, money and research. When properly constructed there's not a significant amount of leakage risk either, but there's the perception.

In other words, if you're going to jump into something worthwhile, make the effort. Don't cheap out on this sort of rubbish and complain when it's no good.

Kudos to SPCR for continually exposing the hype.

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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 3:39 am 
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kater wrote:
This [1m drop] some kind of LAN party ritual?
No. More an example of regular mail handling...

Cheers
Olle


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 1:03 pm 
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These closed-loop coolers are a brand new revenue opportunity for manufacturers, including mainstream PC makers such as Dell and HP. We're going to see a lot more liquid-cooled gaming PCs and workstations. The idea of affordable liquid cooling is likely very appealing to the buying public. The readers of this forum and the SPCR writers, of course, are able to critically assess the performance of CPU coolers such as the Antec Kühler line (BTW, what's with the umlaut?). They will get better, but they just cannot get around the physics involved. At this price point, air coolers are able to perform better, at a lower noise level.

Thanks for the review. The data look really interesting.
Akustyk


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:42 pm 
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Olle P wrote:
In this particular case there are some other fans with better pressure/noise ratio that should come in handy, like Gentle Typhoon and Noctua NF-P12.

Cheers
Olle


Exactly. This is why the stock fan of the 920 outperform the Nexus as similar noise levels.
Test them with an AP-29 next time.

I appreciated this review for the rigorous SPL noise measurements, but it is obvious that all these coolers are NOT intended for silent systems. I also doubt that traditional custom watercooling is, at least regarding the cpu loop. Huge towers cool already good enough for 99% of the setups.

Now, going to a QUIET computing, rather than silent, lets say under 28dbA with a benign noise profile, i believe that dual rads such as the H100 and the upcoming Antec competitor based on the latest Asetek (google WC2011) with the proper fans can be equal if not better than current dual tower air coolers.
Especially with HIGH ambient temps, which are never taken into account in reviews. Heat the lab guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:19 pm 
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Telstar wrote:
Especially with HIGH ambient temps, which are never taken into account in reviews. Heat the lab guys.

Not correct. Ambient temp is the baseline reference w/o which no thermal analysis is even possible. We always take ambient into accounbt, and it varies in our lab from a low of maybe 18C to a high of 26~28C. A thermometer reads the air temp a little above the HS, about 6" away from the intake side of the fan. This is our reference ambient baseline temp, checked continuously throughout testing.

Whether the lab ambient is 10C or 30C does not matter a whit -- it is the temperature rise from the ambient that matters. If a HSF on a particular CPU w/ particular load ends up with a 20C rise at 10C ambient, that is the same temp rise you will see when the ambient is 30C.

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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:46 pm 
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MikeC wrote:
Whether the lab ambient is 10C or 30C does not matter a whit -- it is the temperature rise from the ambient that matters. If a HSF on a particular CPU w/ particular load ends up with a 20C rise at 10C ambient, that is the same temp rise you will see when the ambient is 30C.


It does.
Air coolers are less and less efficient with high ambient temps (around 30°C as breakeven). So have many users reported on various forums, and I remember something similar also happening to my system a couple years ago when we had a very hot summer.
I think it would be worth a try to compare delta-T at lets say 22°C and 32°C ambient in the next text, there could be some surprise ;)
I wasn't referring to your review in particular, but i have seen better performances of air coolers where labs were in the low 20s.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:15 am 
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Telstar wrote:
Air coolers are less and less efficient with high ambient temps ...
I think heatpipe coolers are less efficient, because the warm air isn't as effective at condensating the water.

With solid heatsinks the opposite apply, since with higher absolute temperature there's an increase in cooling by black body radiation. (This effect is probably smaller than the measurement inaccuracy though.)

Cheers
Olle


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 2:37 am 
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Olle P wrote:
Telstar wrote:
Air coolers are less and less efficient with high ambient temps ...
I think heatpipe coolers are less efficient, because the warm air isn't as effective at condensating the water.


I believe you may have nailed the cause :)
Current best air coolers are all heatpipes for years now.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 11:42 pm 
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There's also the issue the cpu will draw more power if it's hotter hence another reason why ambient temperature matters. I don't know how pronounced that effect is with the cpu in question though (but it could be easily measured). Given the relatively small ambient temperature difference (10 degrees) it probably wouldn't make more than a 1 or 2 degree difference in any case. That effect is probably secondary to changes in heat pipe effectiveness due to different temperature, though I've no idea really there how big that change is (that would entirely depend on the properties of the material inside the heatpipe and the pressure - in theory a too low temperature also will decrease effectiveness).


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 12:31 am 
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mczak wrote:
There's also the issue the cpu will draw more power if it's hotter hence another reason why ambient temperature matters.
...


I remember my E6600 Delta to be around 5°C worse with ambient around 35C and beyond that summer. There was a kind of threshold, passed which, the temps drastically raised. I was considering to do chilled water cooling, which is still the best option for hot rooms.
But today cpus are cooler thanks to the smaller process and the loads of energy features built in (possible to keep when overclocking!), and at the same time, the all-in-one watercoolers improved to the point where they are a very good choice for 2500k/2600k. Even if the performance is sub par with the best air cooler (but NOT in hot rooms), there are two other big advantages: no strain on the mainboard when mounted in tower/midtower cases (90% of the situations i believe), clearance around the cpu/ram which makes the build look neater and easy to access every component.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:30 pm 
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Telstar wrote:
I appreciated this review for the rigorous SPL noise measurements, but it is obvious that all these coolers are NOT intended for silent systems. I also doubt that traditional custom watercooling is, at least regarding the cpu loop. Huge towers cool already good enough for 99% of the setups.

While towers cool well enough for 99% of setups (not going to argue your statistic), there's a traditional custom watercooled PC sitting right here that's inaudible on some pretty decent home recording equipment less than 3' away. Not only is it a CPU loop, it's a CPU loop cooling a 4.8GHz i5 and just happens to be sharing water with an OC'd GTX 570.

Special note: The pump is running at (wait for it) stock volts. I'd put the "noise" from this PC up against any decently powerful air-cooled rig on a pure acoustic basis any day.

It's not the method, it's the application ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:34 pm 
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Telstar wrote:
mczak wrote:
There's also the issue the cpu will draw more power if it's hotter hence another reason why ambient temperature matters.
...


I remember my E6600 Delta to be around 5°C worse with ambient around 35C and beyond that summer. There was a kind of threshold, passed which, the temps drastically raised. I was considering to do chilled water cooling, which is still the best option for hot rooms.
But today cpus are cooler thanks to the smaller process and the loads of energy features built in (possible to keep when overclocking!), and at the same time, the all-in-one watercoolers improved to the point where they are a very good choice for 2500k/2600k. Even if the performance is sub par with the best air cooler (but NOT in hot rooms), there are two other big advantages: no strain on the mainboard when mounted in tower/midtower cases (90% of the situations i believe), clearance around the cpu/ram which makes the build look neater and easy to access every component.

A decent kit will still best these all-in-ones by a pretty fair margin. I'm thinking specifically of the Swiftech kits, but there are others available as well (EK, XSPC, etc.). The problem is price of entry, but once you're in, the block, rads, fans and pumps will most likely be compatible with several upgrades down the road, saving both money long-term and your ears in the interim.

Of course a decent "traditional" kit is upgradeable as well, often allowing you to put your GPU and/ or motherboard components in the same loop for the cost of the additional block/s alone.

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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:23 pm 
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warriorpoet wrote:
A decent kit will still best these all-in-ones by a pretty fair margin. I'm thinking specifically of the Swiftech kits, but there are others available as well (EK, XSPC, etc.). The problem is price of entry, but once you're in, the block, rads, fans and pumps will most likely be compatible with several upgrades down the road, saving both money long-term and your ears in the interim.


For me it's not a money issue, but a time/maintenance.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 10:53 am 
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Hi guys,

Does anybody know if these coolers can be positioned horizontally?
My case is a little bit different and I need to position the 620 cooler horizontally and I need to know before buying one if this can be done without affecting its performance or its health.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 3:29 am 
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TheJudge wrote:
Does anybody know if these coolers can be positioned horizontally?

Yes they can. In a review I saw an Antec rep responding to this issue with a sounding yes. (Sorry I can't remember the source at this very moment.)


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:17 am 
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Telstar wrote:
MikeC wrote:
Whether the lab ambient is 10C or 30C does not matter a whit -- it is the temperature rise from the ambient that matters. If a HSF on a particular CPU w/ particular load ends up with a 20C rise at 10C ambient, that is the same temp rise you will see when the ambient is 30C.


It does.
Air coolers are less and less efficient with high ambient temps (around 30°C as breakeven). So have many users reported on various forums, and I remember something similar also happening to my system a couple years ago when we had a very hot summer.
I think it would be worth a try to compare delta-T at lets say 22°C and 32°C ambient in the next text, there could be some surprise ;)
I wasn't referring to your review in particular, but i have seen better performances of air coolers where labs were in the low 20s.


I also think it would be worth doing this test.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 4:32 am 
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There's one reason why these coolers are preferable to big heavey towers: transportation.

I build workstations for a living and I sell them overclocked with a guarantee. Two years ago I would ship them with a heavy cooler like Thermalright's or Prolimatech's. I had to secure these things and put lots of styrofoam inside the case, that the user had to remove before a first use. But the worst part was the fan would always fall off its place. These flimsy clips that put the fans in place on tower air coolers can't resist the smallest shake in transportation. The end result is my customers had a perception of buying a system too fragile.

Then I started using the Corsairs and Coolits and everything changed. Yes, the noise level is a little higher but nothing an ordinary office noise level won't mask. I can ship the systems for a "plug and play" operation now, no need to RTFM before, and my customers don't have to take any special precaution if they ever move their systems around. My systems are now much more reliable, reasonably quiet (an order of magnitude quieter than Dell or HP workstations, that's been proved) and more powerful than those too.

You see these coolers (usually made by Asetek), not air-cooling towers, installed in high-eng gaming rigs by the big brands, probably for the same reasons I've mentioned above.

On a side note, Antec's mounting system (Asetek's, really) is MUCH worse than the new Corsairs, which are now made by Coolit (no longer in the retail market). These are marginally better at cooling too (according to some reviews out there), so I would appreciate a review from SPCR in terms of noise, since I'm leaning to the H80 and H100 for the next batch of machines I'll build.


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 01, 2011 12:40 pm 
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comomolo wrote:
TheJudge wrote:
Does anybody know if these coolers can be positioned horizontally?

Yes they can. In a review I saw an Antec rep responding to this issue with a sounding yes. (Sorry I can't remember the source at this very moment.)


Thank you for your response. I'll go for this cooler then and place it horizontally in my case. I'm hoping that it's going to work :)


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:34 am 
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Telstar wrote:
warriorpoet wrote:
A decent kit will still best these all-in-ones by a pretty fair margin. I'm thinking specifically of the Swiftech kits, but there are others available as well (EK, XSPC, etc.). The problem is price of entry, but once you're in, the block, rads, fans and pumps will most likely be compatible with several upgrades down the road, saving both money long-term and your ears in the interim.


For me it's not a money issue, but a time/maintenance.

With the right tubing/ additive there is very little maintenance. For instance, I ran my last loop for 2 years without changing the distilled water I run for coolant; all I needed to do was add a drop of PT Nuke every 6 months or so. Even the tubing of modern kits is designed to make things easier- Primochill LRT in particular is not only very easy to use, but biocidal.

Gone are the days of high-maintenance H2o loops. Now you buy it, install it and let 'er rip :)

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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:08 am 
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its also easier to fit a 120 rad in most cases than a 7" tall tower cooler.

I use an H50 and have one laying around, paid 40 or less for both of them, which is why I bought them


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 Post subject: Re: Antec Kühler H20 620 & 920 CPU Water Coolers
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:13 pm 
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My HTPC is built inside a Silverstone LC04 case with very limited room for a CPU cooler. Right now I have the stock cooler that came with the Phenom, but it's not really that quiet. Originally I was going to stick a Scythe Shuriken in there, but it won't really fit due to the optical drive mounted above.

Since the rear of the case sticks out through a hole in the back of the bookcase which is actually about a foot away from the wall, I was thinking of installing one of these (i.e. the 620) - but not in a 120mm exhaust (as there aren't any), but completely outside the case. Does anybody think this is a viable solution for my rig or perhaps a very bad one? The X3 705e isn't a particularily power-hungry CPU so I shouldn't need to run the pump on max, right?

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