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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 11:38 am 
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The "war on drugs" (which is not legally a war regardless of the destruction involved) is not waged solely or even primarily on users, producers and dealers of recreational drugs.
Not having a prescription for a drug does not mean your usage is recreational. One of the consequences of this "war" is that it's harder and often impossible to get prescriptions for certain drugs to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 1:36 pm 
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Reachable wrote:
The War On Drugs is a destructive effort, and of the nearly $1 trillion spent on it so far I would venture to say that only a very small percentage was devoted to prevention of drug use, and the procedures designated as preventive probably weren't very sagely guided.
Yeah... A waste of the public Fisc. How about a voluntary tax to support this war?

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2011 2:42 pm 
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http://www.cannabisculture.com/v2/conte ... gs-illegal

Because drugs are illegal what happens is that there is a black market for them which makes people like El Chapo rich. the war on drugs is an illusion. It is the drug dealers who want drugs illegal because the prices are higher and no tax for the government. If it wag legal it would be regulated and less and less of these drugs will be on the street.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 12:42 am 
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I just want to say that I am 30 years old and I did not try marijuana until last year. I have suffered with major depression, anxiety, and mild schizophrenia for as long as I can remember. I have tried every type of medication, trying to fix these problems. No legal medication has ever produced positive effects, although some have made it much worse.

Last year I tried weed for the first time and all my mental health problems just seemed to fade away. I have always been strongly against drugs. I was brainwashed by what my government and schools have told me about weed.

To give you an idea of what my life was like before marijuana, I have attempted suicide dozens of times. I have purposely OD'ed on all types of over the counter medications, cut my wrists, stood on the edge of a building etc. Its hard to understand mental illness unless you have experienced it. I haven't been very happy with my life in the past but even during times that I should be happy I always have this voice telling me that it would be easier to end it than to deal with day to day problems. My last occurrence of suicide was about two years ago. I bought a shotgun and had to small talk with the gun store clerk about hunting just to cover my true motives. The entire two weeks I thought about it. I thought I would chicken out. Then I drove home put the loaded weapons in my mouth and pulled the trigger, but the gun did not go off. I took it as some kind of sign. The gun was not on safety and worked fine when shooting bottles.

The first time I smoked weed I felt a feeling I hadn't felt since I was a child. All the anxiety, depression, and the urge to end my life vanished. Now its not a CURE necessarily as whenever I stop it all comes flooding back; But during the time that I am under the influence of weed I can function on a whole new level. I can accomplish much more during the course of a day and whenever a problem arises I can deal with it without having to will my self to not just die. I can mingle within society on a level that I have never been able to stand and no one even notices I'm on it. My parents visited and neither knew with the exception of them noticing that I was much more happy than they had ever seen me.

It angers me so much that this plant exists, and has existed for thousands of years, and yet it is illegal while alcohol and cigarettes kill thousands every year. A simple plant that fixes so many of my problems, and I could be arrested and jailed for simply possessing small quantities of it. I am not addicted to weed, but I do need it to live. I have seen real addiction, even to alcohol. My ex's stepfather use to get up everyday and steal lawnmowers, garden chairs, and basically anything that was outside of peoples houses so he could pawn it for beer money.

Weed does not make me a criminal, it does not make me reckless or a danger to society. It has not made me want to try any harder drugs. It has not made me impotent, nor has it made me retarded, or any of the other myths you hear about it.

I believe that it should be 100% legalized, and all the politicians and people in power which have allowed it to be illegal should be scrutinized closely because in my mind the illegalization of weed is a great crime against society. I know that it could help so many people and its wrong that it is hidden from us. I hope to soon move to a place where I will be putting myself in less risk for simply wanting access to a plant that is literally saving my life.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:35 am 
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@GamingGod

I sympathise with your condition(s). I have suffered from clinical depression for the last five years now. Or rather, I have been taking medication for my depression for the last five years. I believe I have had a depressive streak a mile wide for as long as I can remember. I also suffer from social anxiety (you people scare the shit out of me!) and only venture out into 'society' once a week to pay bills, do shopping and anything else that needs doing. If I had somebody who could do these things for me, I'd be more of a recluse than I already am, so I guess in some strange way it's good that I don't :) I have also attempted to kill myself and ultimately concluded that a) I am either so absolutely crap at everything that I can't kill myself successfully, or, b) for whatever reason, it's not my time. I never tried anything that seemed infallible because by the time I got round to attempting to take my life, I'd already read and heard of plenty who had tried in ways that seemed an absolute, yet still failed, and invariably made their situtation a lot worse. There are very few absolutes in life, and physics is a bitch :lol: Besides, while suicide is considered a selfish act, I never wanted my suicide to be something that ultimately created mental problems for the poor bastard(s) that didn't know me, but found my dead ass.

Anyway. I smoked weed for about thirteen years, from the age of fifteen to twenty-eight. I had the occasional joint every now and then after that but they were few and far between. When the depression finally took hold five years ago, I found I couldn't smoke weed anymore. If we are to suppose that depressive thoughts need some sort of door or window to get into the mind, then I found smoking weed to be akin to throwing open huge doors. The only thing I could do was to go to sleep, and in a sense, shut my brain down.

My brother is bipolar, and also suffers from epilepsy and anxiety, amongst other health issues. He still smokes weed to this day, and like you, it seems to help with his condition. The funny thing is, as I've stated in a prior post, most doctors are more than happy to blame use of weed on any mental health issues you may suffer from. Mostly because they don't have a clue, and will grasp at straws if they're able to. It seems that beyond throwing pills at the problem and/or sending you to therapy, they're all out of solutions when it comes to depression. I'm glad to see that your use of weed proves their tenuous belief regarding it so very wrong.

I have also previously stated this, but it bears repeating: the only true way to find out what happens when weed is legalised in your state or country, is to legalise it.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 7:33 am 
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@GamingGod & @Haych

Very sorry to hear about your issues, but pleased to hear that you have found something that helps.

I suspect that Cannabis will eventually have its classification dropped in many countries where it is currently illegal, which would mean that being caught in possession of it will get a slap on the wrist and the police then smoking your weed that evening or baking hash-cakes. This will however take a long time to happen, and ideally the end result will be legalisation, acceptance and of course control (Amsterdam coffee shops), and even some income for the government (of course they will tax it, the would tax air if they could) which would then give them more money to spend on the addicts of far nastier substances - at least that is my hope - not that I actually partake in weed consumption.

On a related note.

Heroin-high vaccine.

http://www.gizmag.com/vaccine-against-heroin/19302/

Could extacy actually help to cure (blood) cancer.?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-14572284


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:43 am 
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Cheers, Andy!

Thanks for the linkage too. Interesting stuff. The second article seems like another boot in the nads for the "drugs are bad, m'kay", squad.

In an attempt at quid pro quo, I'd recommend reading 'High Society' by Ben Elton. It makes some good points I felt.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:47 am 
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Google the term "pill mills in Florida". People can sell oxcodone for $1 a mg and they drive in vans and buses down to Florida (and Kentucky) to get "prescriptions" for hundreds and hundreds of 80mg pills -- and then they visit another pill mill...

This is rampant in many parts of the country.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:50 am 
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There is something very wrong there.

I have never heard of such a thing as a "pain clinic" where people can buy painkillers without any questions, let alone so many of them and they are still running - that has got to be illegal.!

But I dont blame the people running the "pill mills" solely, the idiots that go to these places are just as much to blame, and they are the ones that die - no sympathy, they should visit a real doctor.

Although because of the USA's total lack of free healthcare I imagine that lots of people will just go to whoever is the cheapest - therefore I conclude that the US government is the root cause of this illegal drug trade (using legal drugs) with most of the political blame being pointed squarely at the "Republicans". The USA is very backward in so many ways, and yet half of the population still wont allow a national health service in America - what are these people on - dirt cheap Vicodin.?

I am so happy that I live in the UK and not the USA. Free visits to doctors, free ambulances, free surgery, free hip replacements, free cataract removal, free bed in hospital (with free but nasty food), free plaster casts and crutches, although I do have to pay for visits to the dentist and optometrist and for prescriptions - and I dont need to spend a fortune on "health insurance" to get all of that, it costs exactly the same amount if I was earning 10,000 per year or 10,000,000 per year - and it is free for the unemployed (and retired) and those under a certain age, and because it is massive and covers the entire population it is much cheaper to run per person than all of these different competing "health insurance" companies.

And slightly closer to topic, "pain clinics" dont exist in the UK, you cant even see a doctor without registering with them first, and there is no point in the doctors prescribing things for the sake of it, so unless you go to a "non-doctor" e.g. "chinese herball bullshit medicine shop", or talk to "Dave from the pub" doctors in the UK are pretty damned safe compared to the US and much cheaper to visit.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 12:34 pm 
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There's no such thing as harmless or recreational drug. They all affect people somehow, even cannabis. Sure cannabis does not make person violent and most cannbis users are very laid back, relaxed and so forth but it still doesn't remove that fact that cannabis does change brain chemistry... but so does caffein. I really don't mind if people use something, aslong it does not put anyone else in danger.

I do not like smoking and I welcome the smoking ban in public places as I do not smoke and passive smoking would be dangerous for me, an asthmatic person. However, I would wish cannabis would be alllowed to use as pain medication and usage of cannabis in medical purpouse would be great. Especially for those that other medicines do not work. Those who suffer neurological based pains would benefit cannabis.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:28 pm 
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andyb wrote:
The USA is very backward in so many ways, and yet half of the population still wont allow a national health service in America - what are these people on - dirt cheap Vicodin.?

Yes, we do seem like barbarians, don't we? That's because we live in what might be termed a "limited democracy" in that one of our unwritten philosophies of government is that one of its overarching purposes is to promote the interests of 'business', which realistically means the fiscal interests of the major stockholders of the largest corporations, even if it's not in the public interest. You have that, and you have the Republican politicians not only voting as such but scaring the ignorant with cries of "socialism!" and it's a wonder even the trivial reforms that have been made get accomplished.

andyb wrote:
and I dont need to spend a fortune on "health insurance" to get all of that, it costs exactly the same amount if I was earning 10,000 per year or 10,000,000 per year

I think what you are trying to say is that everyone is entitled to the same health care whether they earn 10,000 per year or 10,000,000 per year.

andyb wrote:
and because it is massive and covers the entire population it is much cheaper to run per person than all of these different competing "health insurance" companies.

Excellent point that should not be forgotten.

andyb wrote:
And slightly closer to topic, "pain clinics" dont exist in the UK, you cant even see a doctor without registering with them first, and there is no point in the doctors prescribing things for the sake of it, so unless you go to a "non-doctor" e.g. "chinese herball bullshit medicine shop", or talk to "Dave from the pub" doctors in the UK are pretty damned safe compared to the US and much cheaper to visit.

I'm always annoyed when someone dismisses Chinese medicine like that because invariably they don't know anything about it. What's important is to choose a practitioner judiciously no matter what the discipline.


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 Post subject: @Haych re depression
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:54 pm 
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This is a bit OT, but I think important to anyone suffering from depression or for anyone you know who has depression. I had problems with depression for several years and was on Prozac for maybe six months and later on an AD called Manerix for two years. The latter one left me completely impotent, and when I discovered that I quit it cold turkey. The most interesting result from quitting was that disappointments that would cause a severe depressive reaction while on Manerix no longer had that effect. It had been a placebo with severe side effects.

A couple of years later, still suffering from generalized low grade depression I stumbled onto bio-feedback. A letter to the editor in Psychology Today led me to a website, and later that led to a practitioner in Vancouver not affiliated with the website. It worked, and it's permanent. A lot of the work this psychologist does with bio-feedback is for ADHD. He has previous academic credentials with university positions in Ottawa and Boston.

His website is here. While finding his website I also found a review site with half the commenters claiming no benefit. My experience was positive. I was also getting cognitive behavioural therapy at the time from a shrink, but on its own it had not solved the depression. I'd urge anyone with depression or knowing anyone with it to search out bio-feedback or neurotherapy in preference to anti-depressant drugs. I'd use the drugs only if in immanent danger of suicide. Hope this helps someone out there. It unfortunately seems to be a well kept secret.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:52 pm 
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Quote:
You have that, and you have the Republican politicians not only voting as such but scaring the ignorant with cries of "socialism!" and it's a wonder even the trivial reforms that have been made get accomplished.


The words Socialism, Communist, Athiest and Liberal all mean quiet different things, but the stupid masses only need to hear one of these words, and it is a "rally call" to the right wing. These words have been the most effective method of getting American voters to vote Republican and not Democrat..... I have always wondered why the word "Democrat" has not been added to that list by the Republicans.

Quote:
I think what you are trying to say is that everyone is entitled to the same health care whether they earn 10,000 per year or 10,000,000 per year.


Yes, however for anything non-essential, anyone with the cash for "private" healthcare can opt to have their hip op done privately, but anyone who snaps a leg will go through the NHS because all emergency ambulances and A&E is done by the NHS. Of course this means that although those people who earn a fortune are just as entitled as those who earn nothing at all, but those who earn more money are far more likely to have a "private" health care plan, but if these people get hit by a car the "private" healthcare goes out of the window as it were....... Best still, you dont have the ambulance crew or A&E staff looking through your wallet for a credit card, although they might for ID and a "Donor Card".

Quote:
Excellent point that should not be forgotten.


Please repeat it loudly and often.

Quote:
I'm always annoyed when someone dismisses Chinese medicine like that because invariably they don't know anything about it. What's important is to choose a practitioner judiciously no matter what the discipline.


I am naturally sceptical.

Chinese medicine places (in the UK) sell things that have not gone through rigorous testing, and have not been manufactured to a high quality and low variability, and is then prescribed by someone who has had NO formal training (doctorate) to diagnose the isuue and prescribe the correct medication, and then the medicine should be collected from a licenced prescription pharmacy. I wont touch "Chinese Medicine" unless it is certified as safe, legalised, tested and regulated, otherwise I wont touch it with a 30-foot pole, after all what is the difference from a "pill mill" and the average "Chinese Medicine" shop.?

I have no doubt that there are a great number of things that we can learn from ancient medicines (chinese and otherwise), but without regulation, and testing its may be anything from worthless to deadly.


NOTE:

The law has recently been changed "RE: Chinese Medicine" and lots of "things - plant matter mostly" are now illegal for sale anywhere, especially in Chinese Medicine shops becuase they kill people with no repercussions to the sellers as up until now they have not been "banned" substances, and many many more are still allowed to be sold but under regulation rather than someone mixing it it the back of a shop.

Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:07 am 
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andyb wrote:

I am naturally sceptical.

Chinese medicine places (in the UK) sell things that have not gone through rigorous testing, and have not been manufactured to a high quality and low variability, and is then prescribed by someone who has had NO formal training (doctorate) to diagnose the isuue and prescribe the correct medication, and then the medicine should be collected from a licenced prescription pharmacy. I wont touch "Chinese Medicine" unless it is certified as safe, legalised, tested and regulated, otherwise I wont touch it with a 30-foot pole, after all what is the difference from a "pill mill" and the average "Chinese Medicine" shop.?

I have no doubt that there are a great number of things that we can learn from ancient medicines (chinese and otherwise), but without regulation, and testing its may be anything from worthless to deadly.


NOTE:

The law has recently been changed "RE: Chinese Medicine" and lots of "things - plant matter mostly" are now illegal for sale anywhere, especially in Chinese Medicine shops becuase they kill people with no repercussions to the sellers as up until now they have not been "banned" substances, and many many more are still allowed to be sold but under regulation rather than someone mixing it it the back of a shop.


OK. But you have to differentiate between the science and philosophy of these traditional medical systems and the reality of the marketplace in them. In the U.S., within the past 20 years or so, a few high quality domestic manufacturers of the traditional Chinese formulas have appeared to address concerns about the patent medicine import products from China. Some of the Chinese manufacturers are good, some are not, and you can never tell whether you're getting the real thing or a counterfeit. Some practitioners here are very learned and astute, others might not be.

But as far as this medicine being 'untested', that's nonsense. You read about how 'concerned scientists' say that herbal medicine has never been tested and you wonder whether their main influence is dogma or corruption. In addition to hundreds of years of safe use, many herbs have been tested in many, many, studies, mostly done in Asia, South Asia, and Europe, not the U.S.

Traditional medicine was swept aside (in some places) by the economic juggernaut of pharmaceuticals and med-tech, and these industries, perhaps mostly by willing and ignorant allies, actively go about spreading publicity to discourage people from going back. That should be kept in mind, and also what should be kept in mind is that anyone who seeks medical care of any kind is well-advised to research before they act.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 10:03 am 
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Quote:
But as far as this medicine being 'untested', that's nonsense.


I am afraid it is very true in the following and very important way.

Drugs manufactured in a lab are tested regulary throughout the process, someone in a Chinese medicine shop are not to any scientific degree, so as far as I am concerned its not so much about whether X bit of plant is safe in X dosage, how do I know how much of X plant is in that bottle, and how do I even know if it is X, and not Y or Z. I dont, so I wont touch it, for exactly ther same way that I will not touch any black-market drugs (or booze, cigarettes etc) because I simply do not know what is in it.

If Chinese Medicine was regulated and produced to a high quality like drugs manufactured in a lab, and actually labled to say how much of what is in them (e.g. Paracetamol 500mg), and a great deal of standardisation (there is very little - its more of a recipe, one person will add a bit more of this and a bit less of that to suit their taste) they would then have a far higher level of acceptance and if these things were to happen I would no longer be a sceptic providing of course that the medicine actually worked (above any beyone a placebo).

I have a very different perspective on "acupuncture", it is well understood, well regulated, people have formal training to do acupuncture for a living, available on the NHS (and often reccomended for certain problems), and it works. When I talk about "Chinese Medicine" I mean, potions and tonics.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:16 pm 
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While I generally agree...

andyb wrote:
I wont touch it, for exactly ther same way that I will not touch any black-market drugs (or booze, cigarettes etc) because I simply do not know what is in it.

There are ways to know (not always applicable of course).

andyb wrote:
high quality like drugs manufactured in a lab, and actually labled to say how much of what is in them (e.g. Paracetamol 500mg)

"Lab" manufacture is not all that great in practice but yeah, it works well enough. The trouble is that I bet you don't know how much paracetamol you should take (and the chance that your doctor knows is even slimmer)... so it's not all that useful to know how much there is in a pill.

andyb wrote:
providing of course that the medicine actually worked (above any beyone a placebo).

Placebos work and the good ones have no side-effects. They're unfairly maligned.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 2:24 pm 
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I think you're wise to be cautious. It sounds like where you are there are storefront apothecaries where somebody prepares the herb prescriptions. That would give me some pause also.

It can be different, though, with bottled, widely distributed branded products. Some herbal companies inspect literally every lot of plants that comes through their door for every relevant contaminate, and when appropriate assay some of the constituents. There are even bulk herb mail order vendors that do the same. It's really much more sophisticated and 21st century than you might think.

But the beauty of plants is that they're not standardized. Every ginseng root is different. They will vary in potency, and even in the subtleties of their effect, but they will be far safer than any isolated compound.

I'm with you in not liking how the manufacturers don't have to list the percentages of each ingredient. They do have to list them, though, in order of presence by weight, so it does give you some idea.

Lab manufacture might not always be what you think it is. My father at one time was a chemist at a Board of Health. I remember him telling me when I was in my teens how he had gone to inspect the facilities of a pharmaceutical company and discovered that it was just something some guy had set up in his garage. Judging from my father's tone of voice, I seriously doubt he would have recommended that company's products to anyone. To this day I am hesitant to buy even vitamins or body care products of mongrel or store brands.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 3:38 pm 
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And let's not go overboard. It makes no sense to be more careful with your medicine than you are with your food. People die from food issues: botulism, e-coli, salmonella and so forth.
Yes, take care with plants and especially shrooms you can overdose from. But if your dose if far from a dangerous dose, the main risk you have to deal with is contamination, inappropriate storage and the like. Food has the same risks.

The trouble with paracetamol and some other drugs is that the doses people take are often quite close to a lethal dose. So don't take chances with that stuff!


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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:22 am 
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Placebos work and the good ones have no side-effects. They're unfairly maligned.


Yes Placebo's do work, but there are limits on the Human body (and Mind's) ability to fix itself with the help of a Placebo. A Placebo will often work on a headache, but it wont work on a Urine Tract Infection.

If I was unfortunate enough to have a Urine Tract Infection I would not hesitate to see a doctor, but I would expect "real" medicine (quite possibly some kind of concoction) and not a Placebo, once I got home with the medicine, I will read all of the instructions and warnings, and then have a look online to see if there are any issues that the Doctor may have overlooked or any higher than expected risk with the medicine(s).

Quote:
And let's not go overboard. It makes no sense to be more careful with your medicine than you are with your food. People die from food issues: botulism, e-coli, salmonella and so forth.


Remember that most food poisonings are totally preventable with sensible and basic precautions as are most drug overdoses.

The problem I have is that of trust, I wont eat lovely looking mushrooms that have just been collected from the forest on the basis that a quarter of a "Death Cap" (Amanita phalloides) will kill you in 3 days at the most, and there is nothing the doctors can do. I wont eat a salad prepared with red kidney beans by someone who does not know what a red kidney bean does to you when its raw, and I wont eat anything that is prepared or cooked by my housemate because he is totally disgusting.

I do trust the drug manufacturing companies, as they are very tightly regulated in the UK even down to the level of what company made the drugs, some are not allowed to be sold in the UK if they are made in certain countries (think third-world) because people are rightly fearful of the medicines and drugs that they take - as I am sure they are of the raw food, the preparation and cooking of their food.

Please read these dated oldest to newest.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/405968.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/4429414.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8509606.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8520171.stm


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:48 am 
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None of your links are as bad as what the practices of regular and regulated food stores have caused. Yeah, you can be careful with shrooms but it's not that easy to protect yourself against the kind of risks I cited. I wouldn't eat or otherwise take chances with random chinese stuff (especially if it contains shrooms) but I still patronize the same chain stores pretty much everybody shops at and I still buy potentially dangerous foods from them because the risk is small and because I can guess how expensive it would be to manage those risks. But the damage the food industry causes in Europe is much greater than chinese medicine.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:50 pm 
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I still patronize the same chain stores pretty much everybody shops at and I still buy potentially dangerous foods from them because the risk is small and because I can guess how expensive it would be to manage those risks. But the damage the food industry causes in Europe is much greater than Chinese medicine.


I don't disagree with your premise, or your evaluation of risks, but I am in no way trying to compare foodstuffs to Chinese Medicine.

I am trying to compare barely regulated Chinese Medicine doled out by someone who does not have a medical degree, and sources their "potions" and pills from anywhere with no regulation at all and even destroys lives because of a similarity between Chinese words.... FFS this is NOT medicine in the modern sense at all, and that is what I am comparing Chinese Medicine to. If... that's a big IF. If "Chinese Medicine" in the UK is as tightly regulated and administered and dosed as the kind that I trust, it will simply be called "Medicine" and the Doctors wont be "Chinese Healers" they will be called Doctors because they have a license to practice medicine.

Up until that point, I will be "risk averse" to things that "might" be great remedy's, or "might" do nothing, or "might" destroy my kidneys, and if I choose to give myself a dose of something or the other, you best believe that I know what I am doing and the risks that I am taking, because that is what I have and will continue to do. I trust myself more than anyone else, I also trust doctors, I don't trust "witch-doctors", I don't trust anyone who works in a "Chinese Medicine" shop, I don't trust "faith-healers" and I don't trust anyone that tells me that "Homeopathy" works.

If someone else "chooses" to take a risk, then that's their "choice", but if someone goes to a "Chinese Medicine" shop looking for a cure, then in reality they are taking a risk of an unknown quantity - but don't realise it at all - after all "herbs" are all good for the body, and these "Chinese" people have been doing this for thousands of years.... it must be safe....... Likewise anyone who tries "Homeopathy" is a f*cking idiot, of course its safe its f*cking water, but it wont sort out your problems above any beyond any other Placebo.

Before someone pulls me up on it, I am not trying to compare "Chinese Medicine" with "Homeopathy", "Chinese Medicine" needs to be 100% regulated, right down to the point of the person giving the "prescription" does not profit from the prescription being used.... e.g. not a SHOP. Whilst Homeopathy needs to be discredited by everyone, very loudly and clearly, there is no difference between that bullshit and a "faith healer" bar of course the "water".... very very very pure water.

And just as an additional point, in-case this one gets brought up, Placebo's only work if the end user does not have an inkling that they are taking a Placebo, the moment someone knows its a Placebo....... poof, its not anymore, its just a pill of nothing or a bottle of Homeopathy.

The danger here should not need to be pointed out. It has happened in the past (lots) and it will happen again (because people are stupid / uneducated / religious), people die because they use "Witch-Doctors", "Chinese Medicine", "Faith-Healers" and "Homeopathy", what they all have in common is that at best they do nothing more than raise the human spirit against a nasty disease or ailment that they can't touch, and at worst are used instead of real medicine that will actually help - this is when "Placebos" (of all kinds) that are given instead of the real thing can be a death sentence.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:39 am 
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I know this isn't what Andy's trying to do, but so many times over the years I've read 'enlightened' scientists trying to defame all of alternative medicine by mentioning homeopathy. The fact is, anybody who uses that ploy is simply scared.

I've never tried homeopathy. I can't quite wrap my head around it. But I can think of rational reasons why it could work, above and beyond the placebo effect. If you're walking the rail and your buddy gives you a little nudge to the right, chances are you'll fall off on the left. As medicine, a little nudge in the same direction by a different agent can upset a fragile equilibrium and cause the body to roar back.

Here's a crude metaphor, please forgive me for it:

Somebody has been yelling at you, insulting you. Your stomach is knotted, your veins are constricted, your blood pressure has risen, your jaw is clenched. Then that person gives you a feeble punch in the stomach. That prompts you to beat the living daylights out of him. No more knotted stomach, no more constricted veins, no more elevated blood pressure. Condition cured.

Of course, then you have to deal with the fallout from the beating you just administered. With homeopathy there's no such fallout.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:02 am 
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All the general public needs to know is that proper homeopathy has no serious side effects and works on many chronic conditions which are not life-threatening. It can also help with the immune system and stuff. Just don't try to use it to replace stuff like surgery or antibiotics.

Some doctors and psychiatrists sometimes prescribe dangerous and addictive drugs which are not recommended for a particular case rather than offering no solution. I've personally been prescribed deadly drugs for poorly diagnosed minor symptoms. Some doctors will admit to it (or at least admit that their colleagues are doing it). In such cases, homeopathy would be a more rational prescription, don't you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 2:41 pm 
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Reachable, I give you a parable.

Evolution, the theory has been around for 150 years - thousands of attempts have been made to discredit it, and to prove that it is wrong, all have failed. Regardless of what nutjobs (nearly always religious nutjobs) have said, or have claimed, Evolution is a theory (follow the link. Number 1, is the Scientific meaning of the word, something that is simply an "idea" is a theorem, in science that's number 4) that has not been discredited once, not a single fossil has ever been found in the wrong evolutionary time-line, not a single shred of DNA evidence has proven that it is not a fact, but people still try to discredit it.

Some people are f*cking idiots.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theorem

Homeopathy, thousands of attempts have been made to prove it works better than a placebo, all have failed. Regardless of what nutjobs (always idiots) have said, or have claimed, Homeopathy is no better than a placebo (follow the link) that has not been proven to work better than a placebo once, not a shred of evidence in double-blind tests has ever found it to work better than a placebo, but people still try to claim that it works, and that "science" does not get it.

Some people are f*cking idiots.

http://sciencebasedpharmacy.wordpress.c ... thy-works/

If you feel that you can prove that Homeopathy works, go ahead and claim your $1,000,000

Homeopathy has a bad name because its just like the Evolution vs Creationism argument that has gone on for the last 150 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation%E ... ontroversy

Evolution, as I have already said has beaten Creationism into the ground every time, do you think that Creationism is still true after it has claimed (falsely) that Evolution is not a fact thousands of times and has lost every single time, would you back a the horse in a 2-horse race that has lost a thousand times, or bet on the one that has won a thousand times.?

Did you know that there is actually far more evidence to prove that evolution is true than there is for the theory of Gravity.!!! Most religious nutjobs don't argue about that, because there is nothing in their ancient book of fables and fairy-tales that even mentions gravity, they only go nuts if a bit of science turns up and shows their stupid stories (formed into a religion later on) for what they are - bullshit.

There is no difference at all between Creationism and Homeopathy, it is a pseudo-science, i.e. not a science at all, but it pretends to be to gain a shred of integrity.

Prove that Homeopathy is better than a Placebo and earn $1m. The challenge has been there for over 2-years now - surprised that no-one has claimed the money yet.?

Quote:
All the general public needs to know is that proper homeopathy has no serious side effects and works on many chronic conditions which are not life-threatening. It can also help with the immune system and stuff.


Step on up and claim your million dollars, prove that it works better than a placebo and you are rich my friend. It has also been proven that having a dog or a cat in a children's cancer ward increases their chances of survival / extends their life, it has been proven that going to sleep listening to certain things helps people sleep, which improves their health and well-being, there are many other examples along these lines and none of them are sold as a lie like Homeopathy is, they all work even though then end user knows why it works, homeopathy doesn't because it IS a placebo and the moment anyone knows that FACT the "magic" of Placebo's vanishes.

HFat go get a million dollars :) if you can.

Quote:
All the general public needs to know is that proper homeopathy has no serious side effects


http://www.1023.org.uk/the-1023-overdose-event.php

Side effects only exist if there is something in there that actually does something, it is impossible to overdose on Homeopathy because it does nothing at all, therefore there are no side effects.

Quote:
Some doctors and psychiatrists sometimes prescribe dangerous and addictive drugs which are not recommended for a particular case rather than offering no solution. I've personally been prescribed deadly drugs for poorly diagnosed minor symptoms. Some doctors will admit to it (or at least admit that their colleagues are doing it).


I cant say that this is a good solution at all, if the drugs don't works, try more drugs might (and does) work in some scenarios, but very often just quitting the drugs totally also works, other-times alternative medicine works very well, e.g. psychotherapy, a change of lifestyle or getting a f*ck-buddy, dozens of things can work, but how many are bare-faced lies.?

Quote:
In such cases, homeopathy would be a more rational prescription, don't you think?


No. Not at all, Homeopathy is NO BETTER THAN A PLACEBO, so all you are giving them is a drop of water or a sugar pill with a label on it that makes it seem like the real thing, but anyone with a sense at all always reads the label, and looks it up in a book or the internet, and then realises that they have been given NOTHING, what are they then going to think...... "oh great" my doctor thinks that I am fine, he has given me some sugar pills.

Those who don't read the label are idiots and might have been taking the wrong medication for years, and those who take pills given to them by a doctor on the spot and told to come back in a week without knowing what they have taken are idiots as well.

Again, I ask you to prove me wrong, go and win that million dollars, then you can come back to me and laugh in my face


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:25 pm 
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Update, the $1,000,000 has been on offer since (at least) 2002 and has still not been won.

FYI, this is how Homeopathy works, just in-case anyone who has been arguing for its benefits does not actually know.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5wYNwst ... r_embedded

You have GOT to watch this.

Video of Homeopaths endangering lives by prescribing homeopathic Malaria tablets instead of the real thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgHRWB6-k-Q

Watch this from the start. Take note at 2:17 - Hilarious, I nearly spat my tea over my keyboard :mrgreen:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFtJgCzP ... re=related

Here is James Randi's latest $1,000,000 offer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMukj31qw1U


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 4:45 pm 
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Update on Randi's Cash Giveaway, it used to be $10,000 a long time ago - a very long time ago.

17 Years he was carrying this $10,000 cheque and has still got the money, any idea when this video was taken.?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlfMsZwr ... re=related

I am an instant fan of Randi, I heard about the brilliant overdose of Homeopathic medicine, but I had no idea he covered so many things with his (currently) $1,000,000 prize - what a man.


Andy

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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:00 pm 
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andyb wrote:
No. Not at all, Homeopathy is NO BETTER THAN A PLACEBO, so all you are giving them is a drop of water or a sugar pill with a label on it that makes it seem like the real thing, but anyone with a sense at all always reads the label, and looks it up in a book or the internet, and then realises that they have been given NOTHING, what are they then going to think...... "oh great" my doctor thinks that I am fine, he has given me some sugar pills.


Dan Ariely has some nice research and personal experience with placebos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qXO-JEamFo

All I will say is that I have the (mis)fortune of being extremely skeptical: no placebos for me. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Lets discuss illegal drugs - and legal ones too
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2011 6:44 pm 
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All I will say is that I have the (mis)fortune of being extremely skeptical: no placebos for me. :(


Good for you.

I have (I believe, but I cant prove it) 2 personal experiences of placebos in true effect, e.g. I did not know what I was taking was not actually having an effect. One was sleeping pills, I had the "desired effect" before the pills were supposed to have an effect (they were not supposed to make you go to sleep but to keep you in a peaceful sleep. e.g. not wake up again),

My first example was of what I was led to believe (naively) that I was actually taking mild sleeping pills, I was not, they were merely mild relaxants that seem to have no effect whatsoever if you have had a couple of beers, mostly because the beer has a better overall effect, and that the "active ingredients" basically do the same thing as alcohol and one of them is actually "hops" which is often found in beer...... funny that. Anyway, they worked to start with because I felt relaxed, because I thought they were making me relax - "self fulfilling prophesy" anyone. They stopped working after just a few days, so after reading the label, I doubled the dose, and and again, and again, 8-pills in one go didn't do anything even when washed down with a few beers, basically they didn't have enough of anything in them to knock you out, they only helped you to "stay sleeping" once you were already out - and that I cannot prove.

FAIL

My second time of Placebo effect was a medication that "builds up" an effect e.g. an effect should not actually be noticeable until about day-3, I felt an effect on day 1, about 2-hours after the first pill, day-2 was not so good because that was the day that I sat down and researched said drug and realised that I had been struck by the Placebo affect. It is quite amazing, and totally real, but only so long as you believe that it is real, but it soon disappears if there is no "real effect" to follow as there was in my first example. This one however was very real, and it worked for weeks and just as expected when I came off of it and its effect dwindled (over some days) I noticed slowly that the drugs had worn out, but by then I was fine - the drugs had worked.

A placebo's only work so long as you believe what you are taking is having an effect and that your issue actually improves (example 2), if it does not - the placebo effect vanishes (example 1).

I do not, and will not say that the Placebo effect is not real, it is. There are dozens of studies that back this up totally, it is scientifically proven beyond doubt. However a pseudoscience is not the best way to administer anything at all, and often fails entirely to have an effect beyond the immediate, there are many better ways to deliver a Placebo, or equivalent benefits of well-being without the claim of medicine where there is none administered.


Andy

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