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 Post subject: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:52 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
Posts: 70
Location: Brazil
So sooner as expected I have the opportunity to buy a new system. I live in Brazil, but since imported things here are more expensive and I will have guests from Germany I'm going to buy my system in Germany.

Wait!!!, before replying "Sandy Bridge":
I know it outperforms the AMDs ATM but I can get a core i3 (dual-core) or a quad-core AMD for the same money. Nearly all cpu-intensive tasks (at least in Linux) use multiple CPUs, so I think between 2 Intel-cores and 4 AMD-cores I will benefit much more from a AMD. Or am I getting ss wrong here?

I am looking for a Bundel (Mainboard, integraded GPU and CPU + Memory)

video-card:
I don't do ANY gaming and HD-videos shouldn't be a problem. I will go at least with Ati 3000 HD so 1080p videos should go easily. But what comes in the next 5 years (I want to use this system at least 5 years / don't doubt, as I'm writing this on a Pentium-D lol)? Perhaps in near future the standard is 2000p videos?

Memory:
I want at least 4GB

CPU:
>=Phenom2
>= core i3

Cooler:
I have the oooooold Thermaltake Sonic Tower. I don't expect it to fit, perhaps I can make trick, but........
So: After choosing the mainboard I need to choose a cooler. I want a passive one (you expected). My case is a Cooler MAster Sileo 510....so I have a lot of space for a heatpipe.


So I guess I have the following options:

core i3: - doubt: wont I profit more from 4 cores?
Phenom 2: - doubt: since all I found come with Ati 3000HD, will it play future video-solutions?
AMD A8: - doubt: wont I get more power for the money with a Phenom?


I will post some bundle-options from ebay.de afterwards, but first I need some general opinions.


Thanks a lot


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:35 am 
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Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:27 am
Posts: 1728
Location: Switzerland
You want opinions but they're useless.

Here are a few facts:
Intel currently has significantly more efficient CPUs.
Intel's branding is confusing (what does "core i3" mean?) but many of their dual-cores have HT so they run 4 threads. HT is of course slower than dedicating a core to each thread but on the other hand Intel's core are currently faster than AMD (assuming the same clock).
The difference between an Intel dual-core and an AMD quad is going to be depend on what CPU-intensive task you're talking about.
There still are CPU-intensive tasks which are single-threaded. This depends on the application and not on the OS.
Intel as well as AMD sells CPUs with different clocks. This could make more difference for some CPU-intensive tasks than the CPU type.
Most people believe some tasks are CPU-intensive when they're actually bottlenecked by something else.
You don't know how long you'll be using this.

So here's my opinion:
If you don't have a clue, go with Intel since you apparently want passive cooling (good luck with that!). Most people would not be able to tell the performance of an AMD quad-core and an Intel dual-core apart. Lots of people practically never run a CPU-intensive task for more than a fraction a second.
If you have a clue, you can find a specific quantitative answer as opposed to general opinions.
2000p videos would be even more useless than 1080p. Who cares?


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:47 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
Posts: 70
Location: Brazil
thanks man

I know what cpu-intensive tasks are. And your right, most of the time they are not running.
I'm not fixed to passiv-cooling....but the cooler must be more silent than my Antec Neo Eco 520

I posted this topic in this forum, too (for anybody interested): https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php ... 07#p986807


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:48 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
Posts: 70
Location: Brazil
So, I dicided to go with Sandy Bridge 2100. I could have a package with the Phenom II x4 965 for the same price but:
1) all phenom2 motherboards I found have Ati onboard or GeForce<8xxx (Ati-driver on Linux is not ideal at the moment)
2) If all say it's very good, there must be a reason
3) half the power usage of the Phenom 965
4) motherboard will be compatible with at least one future CPU from Intel



My package is almost ready, perhaps I change something still (overall cost: 211,48 EUR) :

cooler:
Scythe Grand Kama Cross

CPU:
INTEL Core i3 2100 2x3.1GHz boxed

MOBO:
Foxconn H61MX-EL - H61
never heard of Foxconn, opted for this because o PCI, wich I might need yet. And it has HDMI, too (perhaps I go with MSI H61M-E33 H61)

Memory:
2GB CORSAIR CL9 XMS-1333 TW3X2G1333C9A KIT
its a kit of 2. any good? there are a lot of options

Thermal paste:
Arctic Silver V

what do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:09 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 708
Location: Denmark
Seems like great picks. The Scythe Grand Kama seems like a good choice: your CPU doesn't emit much heat and the stock fan is excellent, typical for Scythe. Although there are other alternatives, I think the SCK fits your needs perfectly. And I definitely believe that Scythe sell their own thermalpaste, so why do you need to buy thermal paste separately?

My only complaint is the ram. 2 GB for a kit of 2? The price of a stick of 4 GB is equal to 2 x 2 GB, so I would suggest you to buy a single (or two) 4 GB stick. That way, you could upgrade in the next five years. About brand and model. That doesn't really matter. RAM performance is very hard to notice in everyday use. Simply buy RAM from a reliable brand. I prefer Kingston because their RAM is sold in "RAM-cases". Corsair sell RAM in un-re-usable plastic cases. I hope you understand what I mean.

_________________
Cooler Master Elite 341, Athlon II X3 425, Radeon 5750 (passive, fan zip-tied on), Crucial M4 64 GB.
Cooling: AC Alpine 64 Pro, rear exhaust Scythe Slipstream 800 rpm @ ~5 V


"SSD's: The difference between a casual jogger and a dog chasing a ball"


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:33 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
Posts: 70
Location: Brazil
I'll take the MSI-Board.....it's only 1,50 Euro more and seam to have better Bios-feauteres. also I won't need 2 PCIs and having 1 more PCI-e will be an advantage in the future. Also the "better name"

kuzzia wrote:
And I definitely believe that Scythe sell their own thermalpaste, so why do you need to buy thermal paste separately?


actually the cooler has a paste included. But they say the Arctic Silver does myricals. Can't I expect some degrees of advantage from it (and therefore lower fan rpm)?



kuzzia wrote:

My only complaint is the ram. 2 GB for a kit of 2? The price of a stick of 4 GB is equal to 2 x 2 GB, so I would suggest you to buy a single (or two) 4 GB stick. .


yea, your right.....I'll go with a single 4GB stick


THANKS a LOT


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:16 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
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Location: Brazil
on the Arch-Linux thread a guy is saying that the stock-spu-fan could satisfie my needs, too....what you think?
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=986807


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:37 am 
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Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2003 7:16 am
Posts: 1300
Location: en.gb.uk
capoeira wrote:
on the Arch-Linux thread a guy is saying that the stock-spu-fan could satisfie my needs, too....what you think?
https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=986807


I think he's wrong, that's what I think.

The stock i3 cooler is half decent, and better than many that went before it. But you can do so much better for not much more money.


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
Posts: 70
Location: Brazil
I just ordered:

1 INTEL Core i3 2100 2x3.1GHz boxed 95,77 €
1 Scythe Grand Kama Cross 33,99 €
1 4GB KINGSTON CL9 ValueRAM PC3-10667U 19,99 €
1 Arctic Silver V 8,99 €
1 MSI H61MU-E35, H61 (B3) (dual PC3-10667U DDR3) 57,66 €
216,40 €

I went from the cheaper MSI-board to this one because the other one was sold out. This has USB3, too (I doubt I will ever need it)
I decided to buy the cooler as I want to try to run the whole system without casefans. (I run my Pentium D without any case-fan, so this should be possible)

Thanks to all, you helped a lot


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 6:09 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
Posts: 70
Location: Brazil
so I got the b_tch running.

Who said the Scythe Grand Kama fan is quiet?
I'm using the smart fan feauture of the MSI-motherboard. Set to 50° target and min-fan-speed of 0. But the fan runs at abou 620 rpm though. While temps in idle are around 35 (without casefans). Why is it running at 620rpm when i set min-fan-speed to 0? It's way louder as my PSU-fan at 620rpm. I guess I have to control the fan with software hum?
What max temp do you guys recomend for a core -3 2100? I guess I could even try disconnecting the fan.


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:39 am 
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Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:18 am
Posts: 1070
Location: UK
Hi, the stock fan is PWM and some PWM fans will run 0% PWM at full speed. SPCR review measured the stock fan at 1300rpm full speed and 680rpm at 11~12dB(A). That is very very quiet and I really doubt that if it's truly doing 600rpm that it's too loud.
Maybe try setting the fan speed to 20~30% minimum in motherboard UEFI, or try MSI's software to control fan speed. CPU temps up to 70°C are perfectly fine for a stock CPU.

Try unplugging the CPU fan temporarily when PC on (and idle) to check if makes difference to noise level.

Good luck, Seb

_________________
i7 2600k under NH-C14 w/2xTY-140PWM fans, P8P67Deluxe, 8GB RAM, GTX560Ti OC w/TwinTurbo II and BIOS fanspeed mod. 2x120GB HyperX 3K RAID 0 & 2TB EARX in Scythe QuietDrive outside case. Antec Signature 650 fan swapped. CoolerMaster 201C with 2x92 + lower 92mm fan out rear, holes-in-floor and mesh top+front intakes.


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 9:16 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
Posts: 70
Location: Brazil
OK, maybe I exegerated to much. I'm not sure actualy if I can hear it or if it is just the PSU. I can hear my PC only late at night, after 22h or so, rest of the day ambient noise is higher.....I will test noise with fan disconected. I guess I just expected too much. With case open I can clearly hear it.

I ran a script to test the rpm at certain PWM levels, it seams there is no way to run it below 622rpm:
Code:
PWM,RPM
255,1413
242,1362
230,1300
217,1232
204,1156
191,1078
178,995
165,905
152,812
139,734
126,682
113,646
100,626
87,622
74,622
48,623
22,622
0,622


I made a full-load test yesterday. max temps where around 53°, the fan stayed at 622rpm. So I guess I can play around with fan disabled.


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 3:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:27 am
Posts: 1728
Location: Switzerland
capoeira wrote:
I made a full-load test yesterday.

Full-load is more than just loading the CPU.

If you want to make it run fanless, watch other temperatures and not only the CPU. A hotter CPU means that everything will be hotter and, unless you have another fan blowing on the board, the temperature difference between other components and the CPU is also going to drop when you take out the CPU fan.
You'll most likely have to underclock if you want to keep temperatures reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2011 6:28 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
Posts: 70
Location: Brazil
I have to excuse myself. It's not the fan but my two harddrives I am hearing. Even that I suspended them I can here the motos wiring. The Sythe fan actualy seams to be much quieter than the HD-motors. Sorry for that, I'm still a beginner. I guess I will buy some foam for my case or even use mineral-wool


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:42 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:41 am
Posts: 708
Location: Denmark
Which hard drives do you use?

_________________
Cooler Master Elite 341, Athlon II X3 425, Radeon 5750 (passive, fan zip-tied on), Crucial M4 64 GB.
Cooling: AC Alpine 64 Pro, rear exhaust Scythe Slipstream 800 rpm @ ~5 V


"SSD's: The difference between a casual jogger and a dog chasing a ball"


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:21 am 
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Patron of SPCR

Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2003 7:18 am
Posts: 1070
Location: UK
Hi, if your hard drives are too loud and you already have them suspended then I'm afraid any solutions are going to cost money.
I have a Scythe Quiet Drive and it's great, takes 3~4dB(A) off the HDD noise, makes a significant difference. But not cheap, especially if need more than one.
People have made their own equivalent using aluminium boxes and gel packs, maybe cheaper solution.

Alternative would be to buy quieter hard drives, Samsung F3 1TB fast and quiet in my experience. Old WD 1TB black isn’t but SPCR reviewed newer 2TB one as much quieter. 5400/5900 rpm “green” drives even quieter, SPCR review of latest Hitatchi 5K3000 has it very quiet with minimal performance loss vs 700rpm drive. You can also look in to laptop drives as being even quieter and not too much more expensive. WD Scorpio Black 7200rpm drive not quiet but good performers.
Ultimate solution is to get SSD as boot/OS drive and a “green” drive for bulk storage.
You may find that your existing hard drives have value sold on eBay or the like and may not cost too much to change them for new, faster, quieter solution.

The fan rpm / PWM setting you posted look quite normal to me, many PWM fans have a minimum speed they will go down to, often in 25~35% range.
See this PDF doc.

Good luck, Seb

_________________
i7 2600k under NH-C14 w/2xTY-140PWM fans, P8P67Deluxe, 8GB RAM, GTX560Ti OC w/TwinTurbo II and BIOS fanspeed mod. 2x120GB HyperX 3K RAID 0 & 2TB EARX in Scythe QuietDrive outside case. Antec Signature 650 fan swapped. CoolerMaster 201C with 2x92 + lower 92mm fan out rear, holes-in-floor and mesh top+front intakes.


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:23 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
Posts: 70
Location: Brazil
thanks to both of you.

my harddrives are those:
WD Caviar Blue (SE16) 640GB WD6400AAKS-00A7B0
Maxtor 6L080M0 (80GB)

I found review here for the WD so I guess the noisemaker is the Maxtor.

Yesterday before going to sleep (about 1:30 am) I started my PC with HDs unpluged. Result was a totaly quiet PC at my sitting position. So, I'm done PSU/cooler/fan wise and my remaining problem is HDs.

I wont be able to buy a new HD in the near future. But I will make a acoustic treatment in my room and I will test some absorbtion material in my case.

"Why not disable the MAxtor?", you might think, since it's only 80GB and the WD big enough. It's because I run Linux and have OS and data partition on seperated HDs. Data is on Maxtor and is backuped automaticly to the WD once a day. WD has another partition for data that I don't mind to lose. I like that solution.


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:05 pm 
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Posts: 1728
Location: Switzerland
How about getting a cheap (or free) used hard-drive to replace that antique instead of trying to absord the noise it makes? You don't have to buy new stuff.
Both drives are probably quite noisy but chances are the older one is worse.


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 Post subject: Re: new MOBO, CPU, RAM and cooler <= 200Euro
PostPosted: Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:13 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2011 11:50 am
Posts: 70
Location: Brazil
HFat wrote:
How about getting a cheap (or free) used hard-drive to replace that antique instead of trying to absord the noise it makes? You don't have to buy new stuff.
Both drives are probably quite noisy but chances are the older one is worse.


yea, thats an option. I'll see.
I'm not in a hurry, as as I stated, I can only hear the PC late at night, so it doesn't bother too much.


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