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 Post subject: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:08 am 
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Hi, all -

I'm contemplating building my own desktop system for a modest Linux application. I've read the various articles on builds, and would like to get some specific recommendations.

As indicated above, the needs are modest. No gaming or super-intensive computation; no fancy graphics required, don't need an optical drive, just a single disk (possibly SSD), Ethernet and USB. I don't think I need WiFi/Bluetooth or any of that jazz.

I would like my system to be as small as practicably possible. My other computer is a Mac mini, and that's a great size for my desk. And of course, I'd like it to be a fairly quiet box.

I'm pretty new to the non Mac world. I did build my own PC about 25 years ago, but I imagine some things have changed just a bit in that time frame. Regarding SFF boxes, it seems to me that the long pole in the tent is the graphics card, as it mounts perpendicular to the motherboard (right?). So, how small can I go here while still having a reasonably quiet system? I noticed that none of the small cases in the review got "Editor's Choice" awards, so...am I making a mistake going that route?

I'd appreciate any ideas on specific cases, motherboard and graphic card combinations that will work together. I'd prefer not to buy some stuff and discover that it doesn't fit right.

Thank you for any help.

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:32 am 
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You probably don't need a dedicated graphics card. If you don't use one, you can pack the computer in a smaller package.

mzimmers wrote:
I'm pretty new to the non Mac world.

The easiest thing to do would be to buy a cheap "barebone" and add the missing parts. Some are very small and, depending on your requirements, you could buy one that's quiet or silent. But if you need a lot of computing power, a more complex building project would be necessary to limit the noise.

So what are your requirements? You say "modest Linux application". Can you be more specific?


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:33 am 
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Small and quiet, i would probably go with HDPLEX H3.SODD Fanless Mini-ITX HTPC Case, btw this small case did get the editor choice award, and can handle a i3 2120 (3.3ghz dual core) fine (according to the review). On the mobo you could go with the one on the review, ASUS P8H67-I DELUXE since it worked fine, or an intel for better efficiency, something like DH67CFB3, check both mobos for linux support.

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:37 am 
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A question and two bits of advice:

Q) Do you have a linux distro in mind? If it is (like most) a binary distro you don't need much horsepower. If it is a source-based (like gentoo, sabayon, arch or lfs) you will probably want something with good multithreaded performance.

Advice:

1) Avoid AMD graphics, stick with intel/nvidia. Intel's open source driver and nvidia's binary blob are both more feature-rich and reliable than AMD's equivalents.

2) If you have a distro in mind check out their recommendations about compatible hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:14 pm 
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HFat wrote:
You probably don't need a dedicated graphics card. If you don't use one, you can pack the computer in a smaller package.


Really? So, what does the monitor cable plug into? Back when I was fooling with PCs, only the graphics cards had the connectors for displays.

Quote:
The easiest thing to do would be to buy a cheap "barebone" and add the missing parts. Some are very small and, depending on your requirements, you could buy one that's quiet or silent. But if you need a lot of computing power, a more complex building project would be necessary to limit the noise.

So what are your requirements? You say "modest Linux application". Can you be more specific?


I can't be more specific, simply because I just don't know. I will probably host an application (that I develop on Qt) that will need to be able to directly address a USB port. No gaming, no ultra-CPU intensive work, nothing like that. Just the ability to support the Qt IDE and graphics library (no full motion or anything).

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:20 pm 
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Nicias wrote:
A question and two bits of advice:

Q) Do you have a linux distro in mind? If it is (like most) a binary distro you don't need much horsepower. If it is a source-based (like gentoo, sabayon, arch or lfs) you will probably want something with good multithreaded performance.


I'd probably go with Ubuntu or something else that's fairly mainstream, and yeah, I'd probably get just a binary (at least to start). Thanks for the tip about checking the processor for compliance.

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:23 pm 
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Abula wrote:
Small and quiet, i would probably go with HDPLEX H3.SODD Fanless Mini-ITX HTPC Case, btw this small case did get the editor choice award, and can handle a i3 2120 (3.3ghz dual core) fine (according to the review). On the mobo you could go with the one on the review, ASUS P8H67-I DELUXE since it worked fine, or an intel for better efficiency, something like DH67CFB3, check both mobos for linux support.


Thanks for the suggestions. I should have mentioned that I don't foresee the need for an optical drive at all. Just a SSD or a 2.5" HDD, and hook-ups for Ethernet, a keyboard and a display.

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:49 pm 
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mzimmers wrote:
So, what does the monitor cable plug into?

The motherboard.

mzimmers wrote:
I can't be more specific, simply because I just don't know.

Then make it your business to know. Surely you can install your IDE in a VM and run it on different computers to see what performance you get.
Otherwise you risk wasting money by purchasing something overpowered or underpowered. If all you need is the cheapest XS35 you'd be a fool to follow Abula's advice for instance. And if you need something more powerful you may not be able to upgrade without replacing the expensive case. There's a tradeoff between size, silence and flexibility so it's especially important to be get your requirements right if you want a quiet SFF. Large and noisy PCs can be upgraded easily.


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:53 pm 
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mzimmers wrote:
Really? So, what does the monitor cable plug into? Back when I was fooling with PCs, only the graphics cards had the connectors for displays.


The CPU holds the graphics processor and the video ports are on the motherboard, in the same place as the other motherboard ports. Things have come quite a long ways indeed. :)


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:04 pm 
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I would have thought a fit-pc2 would do the job for you?


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 4:44 pm 
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The fit-PC looks pretty interesting. They don't say anything about possible upgrades, though; I wonder if you can put more memory in it, or add a bigger disk?

EDIT:

Another question: their spec sheet says that the graphics output is DVI, but the connector looks like an HDMI. These aren't compatible, are they? What do most of the modern monitors use?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:56 pm 
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In general, when you go that small you sacrifice user flexibility. (Just look at the Mac mini, there's very little a user can replace without a soldering iron.)

For the Fit-PC2, their FAQ says that you can't swap RAM since it's soldered in place. Replacing the hard drive should be possible, though, since their specs list 'internal bay for 2.5" HDD'.

HDMI and DVI-D use the same signals for picture, so you just need a simple adapter to hook up one to the other. (Just note that DVI can also carry analog VGA signals, DVI-A, which is not compatible with HDMI.)
The fit-PC connector is indeed an HDMI connector, but they call it DVI since it doesn't carry audio, while HDMI does. It's mentioned in the FAQ.

My local shopping comparison search engine lists ~1000 monitors, whereof 80% have VGA, 70% DVI, 30% HDMI and 10% DisplayPort.
VGA is on the way out, DVI is most common among desktop monitors, and HDMI most common in multimedia-oriented settings.


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:49 am 
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OK, per the recommendation above, I've given a bit more thought to my needs. I'd be happy with a system that can support a LAMP stack, and perhaps allow me to act as a test server for my WordPress installation.

I imagine I'll need more than 2 GB of memory for that (right?), so perhaps something that's a step up from that very cool Fit-PC.

EDIT:

The above needs are in addition to being able to run Qt and Qt-based applications, and have direct addressing of at least one USB port.

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:52 am 
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How about something like this:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/zotac-zbox


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:13 am 
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Some of the Zotacs have nicer CPUs but they have fans.

This is fanless: http://www.provantage.com/shuttle-compu ... HCO0AJ.htm
Get the older version if you can find it for less money.

If you don't need it right now, I'd wait until barebones or mITX motherboards with the new Atoms become available. The manufacturers had designs ready and we've been waiting for a while but shops have only started to list a few models as "out of stock".


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:22 am 
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What is the Atom, and what is its claim to fame? I'm not in a big hurry, so I don't mind waiting.

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2011 9:30 am 
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It's Intel's low-power CPU. It's crappy but it's the most efficient x86 CPU out there. So you can easily run it without any fans and therefore any noise. It's also cheap.
Intel updates it every two years or so. If you buy now you're basically buying 2-year old tech whereas the new stuff should become available soon. But there's already been delays and I don't know for sure when you're actually going to be able to buy the stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:24 am 
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Any opinions on this?

http://www.zotacusa.com/zbox-intel-atom-d525-all-in-one-zbox-id41-plus-u.html

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:22 pm 
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mzimmers wrote:

I'm a Linux user with a Celeron 2.2 GHz single core and an Atom 1.6 GHz single core. If it were me, I would buy a Sandy Bridge i3 or and AMD Llano, at minimum.

Atoms are dated designs with poor performance, even with dual cores. Video is appalling. ION helps a lot, but doesn't completely make up for a poor CPU.

Curious why you aren't using Parallels or Boot Camp to boot Linux on your Mac Mini, assuming you have an Intel Mac Mini. Cheap way to learn.

http://www.macworld.com/article/159778/2011/05/parallels_server_mac_mini.html
http://drasticcode.com/2010/9/15/setting-up-a-macbook-to-dual-boot-into-ubuntu-and-os-x


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 3:51 pm 
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Thanks for the input, Doug. I could probably use Parallel or Boot Camp for a short period, but I'm going to need a dedicated box sooner or later.

If I go with Sandy Bridge, do you have any recommendation on a particular mini-ATX board for it? I don't need WiFi, or much fancy...just want a solid board that I can put in something like the Antec Mini Skeleton.

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:10 pm 
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mzimmers wrote:
Thanks for the input, Doug. I could probably use Parallel or Boot Camp for a short period, but I'm going to need a dedicated box sooner or later.

If I go with Sandy Bridge, do you have any recommendation on a particular mini-ATX board for it? I don't need WiFi, or much fancy...just want a solid board that I can put in something like the Antec Mini Skeleton.

I'm not a mini-ITX user. There are lots of experts on this board.

You might want to try booting a Live Linux via CD or USB on your Mac Mini and trying your app on that config. No repartition or install required. Use the relative performance and the type of Mac CPU you have to extrapolate your CPU performance needs for Linux. (Consider Knoppix 6.7 as an easy Live Linux for testing.) http://knopper.net/knoppix/knoppix67-en.html (Assumes you can do this via EFI/boot camp. Have not verified.)

When you have determined your approximate CPU performance needs, use the search function on this site and narrow down your CPU choices. Consider checking sites like newegg.com to pick a few candidate motherboards. Be sure to read the reviews.

Also, goolgle for roundup articles like http://www.anandtech.com/show/4376/computex-2011-intels-thin-miniitx-sandy-bridge-platform and http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/mainboards/display/mini-itx-lga1155-roundup.html Resist the temptation to select something brand new, especially for Linux.

When you've narrowed down your choices to a couple of CPUs and a few motherboards, google the motherboard name and the word Linux to ensure that there are no issues with Linux compatibility, especially with videos.

Be aware that Intel's Linux video drivers are getting better, but still aren't high performance. If your app needs high performance video, consider adding Nvidia to your config.

Now that you've narrowed down your options, search again on this site to validate your choices. Finally, present you partially validated list of options to the members of this site for their expert opinions. The more work you do ahead of time, the better the members can help you. The more specifically you can define your preferred options, the better.


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Sounds like very good advice, Doug, thanks.

My graphics needs are minimal to non-existant. Again, I just need to support Qt as my IDE, and an ASIC simulation that I'm developing. The simulation is purely circuit verification (no performance), so the needs there are relatively modest as well. And again, I don't need wireless, I don't need an optical drive, and I can't think of much of anything that I really *do* need. All my program interfaces will almost certainly use a USB port (though they might not adhere to the USB protocol). I guess that's why I started in this forum; a quiet system is very close to my top priority.

I appreciate the suggestions.

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:51 pm 
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"Budget mini-itx/htpc build with low power Sandy Bridge"http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/314407-31-budget-mini-htpc-build-power-sandy-bridge

You probably don't need the H67 chipset. This would mean more mobo choices and/or cheaper mobo.

A 35 watt dual-core Sandy Bridge Pentium might be adequate. Cheap and easy to cool/quiet. http://ark.intel.com/products/53481/Intel-Pentium-Processor-G620T-(3M-Cache-2_20-GHz)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116401

Of the following, I'd probably go for the H61N, but maybe other posters can make a suggestion.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100007627+600093976+600100102+600009028&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=280&description=&hisInDesc=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&AdvancedSearch=1&srchInDesc=

If you don't already have a hard disk, buy immediately. They will be in very short supply due to the flooding in Thailand.


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 6:00 pm 
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Good to know about the disk drive supply...thanks.

If it's only a matter of money, I don't mind investing a little extra in a chipset like the H67, if only to buy myself a bit more "headroom." But...this refers to the chipset on the motherboard, right? I still need to pick a compatible CPU?

I'm currently leaning toward the Antec mini-skeleton "case" because it's kind of cool and looks as though cooling would be a breeze, so to speak, plus it's supposed to be quiet.

EDIT: I suppose I'd better re-think this. It appears that the peak power of the Sandy Bridge processors exceed what the PS in the mini-skeleton can deliver. Oops...

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:48 pm 
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mzimmers wrote:
EDIT: I suppose I'd better re-think this. It appears that the peak power of the Sandy Bridge processors exceed what the PS in the mini-skeleton can deliver. Oops...


What makes you say that? It's PSU can supply 90w. That'll certainly handle a system built on any of the LV SNBs and will probably handle the "65w" i3-2100 that doesn't pull nearly that in any test I've seen...


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:14 pm 
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OK, am I misunderstanding this data, then?

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/sandy-bridge-efficienct-32-nm,2831-7.html

If those peak figures are accurate, they exceed the 90W that the PS supplies, no?

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2011 11:26 pm 
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Tom's Hardware tested Core i5 and i7, those are high-end desktop processors with a 95W TDP (Thermal Design Power, loosely speaking the peak power consumption).
A 95W processor won't work with a 90W power supply, no.

You can see some power consumption numbers for the lower end here: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/cpu/di ... html#sect0
By downgrading to i3-2100T or Pentium you get peak power 30-60 W, which is no problem for a 90 W PSU.

There's a list of Sandy Bridge processors with TDP at wikipedia. 35W processors will certainly work, the 65W ones may work with some extra care.

But you should try to determine whether you need desktop class (Pentium through i7), netbook class (Atom/E-350) or cellphone class (ARM, e.g. plug computer) performance, it has a major impact on how small you can get it.
(I'm not familiar with the Qt IDE. If it's like 'vi' or 'nano' you can run it off a cellphone, if it's more like Eclipse you need a desktop class computer.
A LAMP stack could probably run off an iPhone with 250 MB RAM if the load is low, but WordPress might require more. Don't know how much more, but I would expect it to be well below 2 GB as long as you don't expect to host a public website on it.)

If you don't know what you need, I'd suggest a Mac mini (packs decent performance in a small package by using laptop components, and you can run Linux on it) or an i3 2100, both are desktop class and can handle most normal tasks.


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:12 am 
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The mini's an interesting idea, but I'm in the mood to tinker a little. Plus I like the idea of something a bit more modular.

So, if I start with:

case: Antec Mini Skeleton
MB: Intel DH67CF
CPU: i3-2100T

...does that sound like a sensible start? All I'll need is a drive (maybe a Scorpio Blue) and memory then, and that's pretty cheap.

Another question: this case has a relatively huge fan sitting a few inches above the CPU. Do I need a dedicated CPU cooler in addition?

Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:29 pm 
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Sounds good. Add any 2.5" drive and two sticks of RAM, and you're good to go.
You might consider a Fan Mate or similar fan controller as well, the case fans may not run as quiet as you would like at stock speeds.

You will still need a heat sink for the CPU, but may be able to skip the CPU fan. 35 W is not a lot of heat, I would start with the stock cooler that comes with the CPU (fan and all), and experiment with removing the CPU fan once the OS is installed and you have temperature monitoring in place.
If the stock heat sink is insufficient without the fan, something like the Scythe Kozuti could be an alternative - judging from pictures there should be just enough clearance in the mini-skeleton to install it.


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 Post subject: Re: building a SFF system for Linux
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:42 pm 
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Thanks, faustus. I'm not married to the idea of using the Mini Skeleton. If something like the Silverstone SG05 would give me more room for a CPU cooler, and more power to boot, I'm perfectly willing to go that route. The SG05 seemed to get a decent review here.

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