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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Maingear EPIC 180 (180mm sealed water cooler)
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=62833&p=546716#p546716

mattlach wrote:
I recently found out about the MainGear EPIC 180. It is a sealed water cooler made by CoolIT and sold exclusively by MainGear (a custom computer builder in the U.S.). Originally their intent was to only include it in their high end Shift systems.

I emailed them to check if they were willing to sell one without a computer, and as luck had it, they just had a meeting and agreed to sell it as a standalone unit. The price was $199 plus some hefty shipping charges. They quickly made a new link in their online store. Since this link has since been taken down (to be updated with a new one in the future, when they have install documentation and other retail things figured out) I must be one of the first people to have gotten my hands on one of these, so I figured I'd give it a brief write up.

The unit is made by CoolIT, and is in CoolIT's ECOII line (the same line that is now sold as Corsairs H60, H80 and H100 units). Corsair does not sell the 180mm version though, It is a MainGear exclusive.

Here is the unit as it arrived:

Image

This thing is bigger than the pictures make it appear.

Image

The fin arrangement looks pretty typical from what I have seen on other radiators like this. Due to its size there's just A LOT more of them.

Image

It comes with pre-applied paste, just like previous sealed coolers I've seen. I'm undecided whether to use as is, or get some of my own (like the Shin Etsu everyone talks about) to make sure I have the best paste possible.

Image

As you can see it comes with this offset bracket. I have been told this bracket allows it to fit without modification in the Silverstone Raven RV01 case, but unfortunately it would not fit without modification in my RV03 case, as such I decided to drill out the rivets and take off the bracket.

Corsair H50 (120mm), meet MainGear EPIC 180 (180mm)

Image

Image

Not only does the EPIC 180 have more than double the area, it also appears thicker!

Here is a comparison of the swept area of existing sealed cooler sizes:
Code:
Single 120mm: 14400 mm^2
Single 140mm: 19600 mm^2
Dual 120mm:   28800 mm^2
Single 180mm: 32400 mm^2


So, if the EPIC 180 can maintain the same effectiveness per sq mm of swept area, this unit ought to beat the newest dual 120mm H100 from corsair and Asetek's upcoming unit which it has announced will be launched through a partner.

Some testing from MainGear/CoolIT seems to suggest the same thing:
Image

For comparison purposes, the CoolIT ECO II 240 is identical to the unit sold as the Corsair H100.

So, for me to install this thing, I had to modify my case a little bit as the motherboard tray protrudes out over the 180mm fan, and as such it wouldn't fit.

Image

I also decided to set it up in a push-pull configuration, so I got a Silverstone FM181 fan to push air in, and I am using one of the existing Air Penetrator fans from my Silverstone RV03 case as the pull fan.

Image

I decided to cut along the red dotted line (and behind the motherboard tray) to make space for the cooler. I did this using a small hack saw. Since the areas circled by the blue dotted lines are where the motherboard tray is attached, the motherboard tray becomes a little bit flexible after this cutting. I compensated for this, by screwing in hard drive mounting brackets on the right to act like support beams. Once the motherboard is installed, it doesn't wobble at all.

Here it is all installed:

Image

I covered up the ugly cut metal with black electric tape folded over to the other side.

If you use an FM181 fan like I did, don't forget to attach either the rheostat or the shorting cable to the rheostat connector. If you don't the fan defaults to its lowest possible setting (not enough power to even start spinning) and it will have you scratching your head and wondering why your temps are so high.

So here are the results (at 100% fan speed)

Image

Test Details:
Stock: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T at stock clocks (3.2Ghz) and stock voltage
OC: AMD Phenom II X6 1090T at 4.0Ghz. BIOS set to 1.4275V (HW Monitor reads 1.53V)
Ambient: AC set to 20C / 68F (can not explain 19C idle temps possibly temp sensor slightly off)
Prime95: In-Place Large FFT's (Max Heat and stress) 6 threads Run for 30 minutes. Max temp seen recorded
Intel Burn Test: Maximum Stress Level (using ~14GB ram) Run for 15 Minutes. Max temp seen recorded.
H50: The H50 was configured in a push-pull configuration with the included Corsair fan pushing in cool air from outside the case and a Scythe SY1225SL slipstream fan pulling.

KEEP IN MIND:
The H50 had been in my system for over a month. Its thermal paste had already been broken in. The EPIC180 was freshly installed. While stock pre-applied paste was used, AS5's directions state temperatures can go down by several degrees after the 200hr break in period.


I'll post an update to this test in a couple of weeks to see if the temps have improved at all.

Seeing that at 100% a stock Phenom II X6 1090T (3.2Ghz) ran Prime 95 at 33C, I'm wondering how well this unit would do fanless for non-overclocked systems. I will test this in a followup to this post.

At 100% these fans are a little louder than what most SPCR members would like. If I manually adjust them down in speed though, they become practically inaudible. I unfortunately do not have a DB meter to test how loud they are though. Since the CPU very rarely is fully loaded, the fans can be spun down and be very quiet most of the time. In this thread I asked (and got an answer) on how to control these 3 pin fans from the CPU 4 pin PWM connector in order to use smart fan monitoring based on the on die temps. I plan on getting a couple of the Sunbeamtech Rheosmart PCI Fan Controller units to accomplish this.

It was a little bit of a bumpy install due to having to mod my case to fit it, but I am happy with this unit. I believe them when they say it outperforms the Coolit ECOII 240 (essentially the same as the Corsair H100). Once I have the sunbeamtech fan controllers this computer will be both fast and near completely silent (the Asus EAH6970 video cards are near silent as well, unless heavily loaded), just like I like it.

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:40 pm 
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Effects of Grill Patterns on Fan Performance/Noise
flemeister wrote:
Ooh, I just remembered reading this nice article recently: Effects of Grill Patterns on Fan Performance/Noise

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 Post subject: Re: Effects of Grill Patterns on Fan Performance/Noise
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:12 pm 
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Re: Effects of Grill Patterns on Fan Performance/Noise

Thanks for posting that link. After years of obsessively cutting the grilles out of cheap cases I have looked at the honeycombed grille on Antec cases and thought, "Should I bother?" Apparently, I should.


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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:52 pm 
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PWM sharing of Arctic Cooling fans

lodestar wrote:
If you like the Arctic Cooling fans there will be little point in considering the others. I have used them before, but prefer one of the other fans on your list, the Scythe Slip Stream SY1225SL12LM-P. The PWM sharing of the ACs is a plus point, but it only works with other Arctic Cooling fans. So if you want a PWM fan chain, it has to be all Arctic Cooling fans. The AC PWM sharing does not work with third-party PWM splitter cables or the Zalman PWM Mate. It does work with fan speed control software such as Asus Fan Xpert or (if your motherboard supports it) SpeedFan.

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:20 pm 
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Protecting Your Hard Drive from Solar Activity?

ces wrote:
ioSafe Zaps Rugged Portable Thunderbolt Drive with Tesla Coil at CES 2012
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1832/1/
YouTube: ioSafe had Dr. Megavolt electrocute their Portable Thunderbolt drive with close to 1,000,000 volts!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... kAJ8FoBHyE
More Info from cNet:
"The new drive itself is very similar to the previous USB 3.0 Rugged Portable that was introduced at last year's demo--and shot with shotguns. However, it now comes with two Thunderbolt ports and the option to host one internal 2.5-inch regular hard drive or two solid-state drives (SSDs), while retaining the same physical compact design. The SSD version of the new drive can be used in either RAID 1 or RAID 0 setup for maximum data safety or maximum capacity and performance, respectively.
Since the new Thunderbolt drive comes with exactly the same disaster-proof design as the previous model (basically indestructible and susceptible to only extreme heat), IoSafe this year decided to use a Tesla coil to unveil it with some lightning bolts."
Read more: http://www.cnet.com/8301-33372_1-573574 ... z1jZ1fCvv2

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 6:21 am 
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deleted by poster

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Last edited by ces on Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2012 10:43 am 
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ces wrote:
Thermal Interface Material (TIM) / New Advance?

A common cause for unexpectedly poor CPU and GPU cooling is a poor thermal connection between the CPU/GPU and its heatsink.

The thermal connection between the CPU/GPU and its heatsink has always been the Achilles heal of heatsink performance. Even when properly applied, test results in reviews show material differences in performance between different TIMS. Up until now they have all been based on silver or ceramics.

Maingear has recently introduced a new advance in TIM called 'EPIC T1000'.

"... this TIM is unique because it is actually a Phase Change Metal Alloy (PCMA) that provides extreme thermal conductivity (>20 W/mK) and the lowest thermal resistance of anything on the market today. This is not just a minor improvement in thermal conductivity it is two to six times better conductivity than most commonly used TIM's." legitreviews.com
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1836/1/

That sounds pretty impressive. There are other attributes that this article doesn't address.
(a) How easy is it to apply. If it is difficult to get a good seating, that is an issue. It doesn't do you any good to have a good TIM, if you fail to apply it in a manner that results in a good seating.
(b) What kind of burn in time does it require? Some times reportedly need a very large number of on/off cycles before they are working up to spec. Some TIMS are designed to work with no burn in. Others, that may perform better, require a longer burn in.
(c) How long will the TIM continue to work after it is applied. Some TIMS dry out after a while and need to be reapplied in order to maintain good performance.

What TIM do you use, and why?

If anyone sees any reviews on EPIC T1000, please post it here.


At the bottom of the article, it says this:

Quote:
One final note for those observant readers, yes this is an OEM of Indigo Xtreme.


Indigo Xtreme has many reviews out there, so there you go :)


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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 9:14 pm 
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Low Profile CPU Heat Sinks

boost wrote:
There's the Coolermaster Gemin II M4, which is basically a Big Shuriken with heatpipe direct touch.
Noctua presented a cooler at the CES with a minimum height of 66mm, but it hasn't come out yet.
The Akasa AK-CC9101BP01 (catchy name) is a 2U with a different airflow, the fan is probably not quiet, but you could use a Zalman PWM fan mate.
The Prolimatech Samuel 17 is very short at 45mm without a fan. construction and mounting are very good, but the price is steep and performance is only slightly better than Big Shuriken's.
The Zerotherm ZT-570D might be worth mentioning, it's an all copper cooler, but too tall with the included fan.
The Zalman CNPS8900 Quiet is a new take on the zalman's round cooler theme, this time with heatpipe direct touch. It looks great, but the min RPM of the included fan is 1000 and it's hard to replace.
I really like the new Noctua!

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2012 6:20 am 
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Cute Swecklocker Fanless System

lordmetroid wrote:
I personally am going to build a system similar to a Silent Mini-ITX build showcased on the Swecklocker website. I started posting some inquiries about such a system a month ago in this thread, viewtopic.php?f=23&t=63835 hope you can find some help from the ongoing discussions.
That is one heck of a fanless build. I love it.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:39 am 
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Flexible Heat Pipes
coppertubing wrote:
Does anyone have experience with these flexible heat pipes?
They look to be ideal for low profile cases or other custom and hard to fit cooling situations.
See:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=63014

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:34 am 
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SSD Data Integrity

washu wrote:
Yes, flash drives require more error correction as time goes on. So do mechanical hard drives. So does everything else in a modern computer. Computer buses, Ethernet, storage links, etc, they all have more error detection/correction as things get faster/bigger. It's the nature of the beast.


You may be right, but somehow I don't think it is so simple.

"I know from the emails I get that many readers think that once they've looked at the single issue of flash endurance - they've covered covered the bases for enterprise SSDs. While endurance remains a challenge for each new flash SSD generation - it's only a single one of many dimensions in the SSD life mix. That's why (in 2008) StorageSearch.com started this directory of definitive technology articles to help guide readers through the reliability maze. "
http://www.storagesearch.com/ssd-data-art.html

With Computer buses, Ethernet and similar situations, all you have to do is detect the corruption and then you resend the data to correct it. With silent SSD corruption, there is no good way to correct the corruption even if you can identify it. The original data is now gone. SSD technology has some inherently unique cross-cell data corruption problems.

SEE ALSO:

1. French Retailer Data Offers SSD Failure Rates
http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/ ... ure_rates/

2. SSD "Silent Data Corruption"
"CRC can only identify that an error has occurred. It cannot correct it, but it does prevent "silent data corruption.""
"Currently the only way to validate that the drive does not have this silent corruption problem is with explicit testing. One method would be to run a test where the LBA itself and an incremental value are stored in that LBA. The host test system would ensure that the data returned contains the correct LBA and incremental value. If the wrong value is returned the host would know the drive failed the test.

This problem can also occur if there is a power failure while the LBA is being updated, the table may contain only information for the data that is now stale. To prevent errors like this, designers can use on-board capacitors (SuperCaps) to provide temporary power during a failure so that the buffers can be flushed and the LBA table properly updated.

Lastly, there is the issue of silent corruption due to firmware bugs. The only way to guard against firmware bugs is through extensive directed testing so that products are known to be bug-free before being put into production."
http://www.storagesearch.com/sandforce-art1.html

3. Enterprise Storage Forum

" During programming, a cell will create a field large enough to perhaps change the properties of a neighboring cell. While designers go to great lengths to make sure that this doesn't happen or that the SSD can compensate for this happening, this phenomenon still occurs and can lead to silent data corruption.

The silent data corruption scenario is fairly simple – a cell has some voltage applied to it, a bias voltage or a program/erase voltage. The resulting field can disturb neighboring cells changing their properties. For example, the number of electrons in the cell can decrease or electrons can be tunneled into the cell. In either case, it's possible to change the value in the cell silently."

"However, it is important to realize that you can get data corruption on the SSD at some point."

"Reducing lithography size brings the cells closer together, reducing the distance between the source and the drain. This allows more cells in a given space, hopefully reducing costs and allowing SSDs to have larger capacities. However, the one fundamental aspect that does not change with lithography size is the voltages that are applied to the cells. The 5V bias voltage has to be applied to bring the cells to a conductive state, you still need 0.5V to read a cell, and 20V to program/erase a cell. However, existing data corruption problems may actually get much worse because the EM fields are the same size and will be stronger in neighboring cells as they are closer together. This only makes the problem of possible data corruption worse"

http://www.enterprisestorageforum.com/t ... t-Year.htm
kuzzia wrote:
flemeister wrote:
Another article of interest, this one regarding return rates: http://www.behardware.com/articles/862- ... tes-6.html In no particular order, for best reliability: Samsung 830 Series, Intel 330/520 Series, Crucial M4, SanDisk Extreme. I simply wouldn't bother with anything else.
I agree with the list you've mentioned, though I don't know anything about the SanDisk Extreme. Also, I simply believe all Intel drives are reliable because I believe Intel tests the SSD's much more thoroughly than other SSD brands.

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Last edited by ces on Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:23 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:38 am 
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ATX vs TFX vs SFX PSUs

boost wrote:
ATX: 150mm X 86MM cutout, original length 140mm, though most high power PSUs are 160mm (Enermax Gold, Enermax Platin<=600W, Seasonic X-series), some even longer: 190mm for Seasonic Platinum, Enermax Platinum >600W. There was an older high power (1200W+) Enhance design with a lenght of 220mm + removable cables.
TFX: 70mm X 85mm cutout, length 175mm standard, maybe up to 190mm
SFX: 100mm x64mm cutout (some have fans that protrude out->100mm X 77mm inside the case), length 125mm standard, Seasonic 350W 130mm.

ist.martin wrote:
Finally, a smaller 300W modular cable PS, from a reliable manufacturer, that is cheap and inaudible under normal loads!
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1246-page1.html
But where can it be used?
TFX compatible cases
Inwin BP671
Inwin BP655
Inwin BL631
Foxconn RM233+
Lian Li PC-C36 MUSE
SilverStone Lascala LC04
Winsis WT-02

boost wrote:
TFX:
Silverstone had some good desktop cases, LC02, LC04 and LC11, all EOL I think.
Chenbro Slim mATX cases are high quality and have an optional Seasonic PSU, though not the latest gold certified models.
Chieftek ITX mini Towers (1) (2), look in the galleries, someone posted pics of a build with one of those there.
Lian Li's mini ITX Desktops Q-09 and the upcoming Q09FN.
InWin BP series small towers and BQ series tiny ITX towers.
Yeong Yang mATX slim towers.
Mini-ITX.com has the Morex Cubid 3388, Jou Jye NU-528i-B and Jye NU-568i-B
SFX:
Silverstone Sugo SG05, SG06... , whatever front panel variations they have.
Thermaltake Element Q, very low clearance for CPU cooler. TT Luxa2 LM100, expensive.
Fractal Design Array, spcr review.
As you can see, compared to the number of bigger cases I could rattle of off the top of my head, there aren't that many.


boost wrote:
Small 1U PSUs are sometimes refered to as flex, too. They are 40.5mm X 80mm X 150mm.
Regular 1U PSUs are 40.5mm X 100mm X 240mm-280mm.
Flex = flexible = manufactures use it however they want.
TFX and SFX are well defined.

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 Post subject: Comparative Product Returns rates 2011
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:41 pm 
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Hard Drives and Other Components
Comparative Product Returns rates 2011


The statistics by brand are based on a minimum sample of 500 sales and those by model on a minimum sample of 100 sales, with the biggest volumes reaching tens of thousands of parts by brand and thousands of parts by model.
http://www.behardware.com/articles/843- ... tes-5.html

Motherboards
http://www.behardware.com/articles/843- ... tes-5.html
- MSI 1.5% (as against 2.3%)
- Gigabyte 1,6% (as against 1.6%)
- ASRock 2.1% (as against 2.0%)
- ASUS 2.2% (as against 1.9%)

Power supplies
http://www.behardware.com/articles/843- ... tes-5.html
- Antec 0.7% (as against 1.0%)
- Seasonic 1.2% (as against 1.3%)
- CoolerMaster 1.4% (as against 1.0%)
- Akasa 1.8% (as against 1.6%)

Looking at the 400-450W models, we get the following classification:
- 1.39% Corsair VX450W
- 0.93% Antec Neo ECO 400C
- 0.83% Seasonic X-400 Fanless
- 0.49% Antec Neo ECO 450
- 0.36% Antec Neo ECO 400
- 0.31% Fortron FSP400-60GhN
- 0.00% Antec EarthWatts EA430 Green
- 0.00% Antec BasiqPower BP430
- 0.00% Antec Neo ECO 450C

Then for the 500-550W models:
- 16.59% Fortron Blue Storm Bronze 500
- 6.84% Corsair VX550W
- 1.98% Fortron Everest 85PLUS 500
- 0.77% Antec EarthWatts EA500 Green
- 0.67% Antec BasiqPower BP500U-EC
- 0.52% Antec Neo ECO 520C
- 0.28% Antec Neo ECO 520
- 0.00% Seasonic M12II-520
- 0.00% Seasonic S12II-520


RAM
http://www.behardware.com/articles/843- ... tes-5.html
- Crucial 0.4% (as against 0.7%)
- Kingston 0.5% (as against 0.4%)
- G.Skill 1.4% (as against 2.0%)
- Corsair 1.6% (as against 1.6%)

Graphics cards
http://www.behardware.com/articles/843- ... tes-5.html
- PNY 1.0% (as against 1.2%)
- ASUS 1.3% (as against 1.3%)
- Gigabyte 1.6% (as against 2.5%)
- Sapphire 1.7% (as against 1.5%)

- Radeon HD 6850: 1.4%
- Radeon HD 6870: 2.4%
- Radeon HD 6950: 4.0%
- Radeon HD 6970: 4.7%

Hard drives
http://www.behardware.com/articles/843- ... tes-5.html
- 1.57% Western Digital Caviar Green (WD10EARS)
- 1.31% Seagate Barracuda 7200.12 (ST31000524AS)
- 1.27% Western Digital Caviar Blue (WD10EALX)
- 1.15% Samsung SpinPoint F3 (HD103SJ)

SSDs
http://www.behardware.com/articles/843- ... tes-5.html
- Intel 0.1% (as against 0.3%)
- Crucial 0.8% (as against 1.9%)
- Corsair 2.9% (as against 2.7%)
- OCZ 4.2% (as against 3.5%)

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Last edited by ces on Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Loud CPU coolers in HTPC builds
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:23 am 
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Reality Distortion Machine (note how 1000-3000 rpm is magically altered to become 1000-1500 rpm)
Yes dear, there are circumstances under which you would use a loud 1000-3000 rpm (1000-5000 rpm actually) high performance server cpu cooler for quiet HTPC builds.

ces wrote:
Zolishoru, I am not going to bother to read your long diatribe... Sticking to the subject, let me get this right, you are advocating, in an SPCR forum, that the OP use the 1000-3000 rpm Dynatron K199 (designed not for quietness but use in server rooms)... in an HTPC project? Are you sure that you really want to stick to that position? Are you really really really sure?


Zolishoru wrote:
Nice to see how much attention you give to a product before you give advice about it :twisted: ...
FYI, some data about the Dynatron K199:
(Almost) fully covered PWM controlled fan,
RPM range:
At Duty Cycle 0~20%: 1000 RPM
At Duty Cycle 50%: 2500 RPM
At Duty Cycle 100%: 5000 RPM
Noise Level(grain of salt required, but IMO isn't far from reality):
At Duty Cycle 0~20%: 20.71 dBA
At Duty Cycle 50%: 37.5 dBA (emphasis added)
At Duty Cycle 100%: 51.7 dBA
IMO is possible to make quiet HTPC with that cooler; it will give better temperatures than the original cooler with same or less noise?
Quite possible, I would say.
So after all, looks like the Devil isn't that black :P .


ces wrote:
Zolishoru wrote:
ces wrote:
Sticking to the subject, let me get this right, you are advocating, in an SPCR forum, that the OP use the 1000-1500 rpm(Zolishoru's correction) Dynatron K199 (designed not for quietness but use in server rooms)... in an HTPC project? Are you sure that you really want to stick to that position? Are you really really really sure?
Yes.
Nothing more need be said.


OP antagon wrote:
If the K199 is inherently louder I don't think it'd be a good option for me. Though it's not really needed for my pc to be completely silent (sadly my tv has gotten somewhat noisy over time) I wouldn't really want something that makes more noise them the stock fan at min fan speeds.

Zolishoru wrote:
And I am really sorry about what happened in the tread, but tolerating ignorance just isn't part of me, especially with repeat offenders.

ces wrote:
My Error Zolishoru. You did have something more to say. I don't tolerate fools easily myself. May I ask you, are there any other loud high performance server cpu coolers you would recommend for HTPC builds in general? Oh and how many dbs would you estimate the k199 to generate at your claimed 1500rpm (don't answer, those are trick questions)

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 Post subject: Re: Loud CPU coolers in HTPC builds
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:12 pm 
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ces wrote:
Reality Distortion Machine (note how 1000-3000 rpm is magically altered to become 1000-1500 rpm)
Yes dear, there are circumstances under which you would use a loud 1000-3000 rpm (1000-5000 rpm actually) high performance server cpu cooler for quiet HTPC builds.

ces wrote:
Zolishoru, I am not going to bother to read your long diatribe... Sticking to the subject, let me get this right, you are advocating, in an SPCR forum, that the OP use the 1000-3000 rpm Dynatron K199 (designed not for quietness but use in server rooms)... in an HTPC project? Are you sure that you really want to stick to that position? Are you really really really sure?


Zolishoru wrote:
Nice to see how much attention you give to a product before you give advice about it :twisted: ...
FYI, some data about the Dynatron K199:
(Almost) fully covered PWM controlled fan,
RPM range:
At Duty Cycle 0~20%: 1000 RPM
At Duty Cycle 50%: 2500 RPM
At Duty Cycle 100%: 5000 RPM
Noise Level(grain of salt required, but IMO isn't far from reality):
At Duty Cycle 0~20%: 20.71 dBA
At Duty Cycle 50%: 37.5 dBA (emphasis added)
At Duty Cycle 100%: 51.7 dBA
IMO is possible to make quiet HTPC with that cooler; it will give better temperatures than the original cooler with same or less noise?
Quite possible, I would say.
So after all, looks like the Devil isn't that black :P .


Re-arranged due to forum software limitations - max 3 quotes can be embedded wrote:
ces wrote:
Sticking to the subject, let me get this right, you are advocating, in an SPCR forum, that the OP use the 1000-1500 rpm(Zolishoru's correction) Dynatron K199 (designed not for quietness but use in server rooms)... in an HTPC project? Are you sure that you really want to stick to that position? Are you really really really sure?

Zolishoru wrote:
Yes.

ces wrote:
Nothing more need be said.



OP antagon wrote:
If the K199 is inherently louder I don't think it'd be a good option for me. Though it's not really needed for my pc to be completely silent (sadly my tv has gotten somewhat noisy over time) I wouldn't really want something that makes more noise them the stock fan at min fan speeds.

Zolishoru wrote:
And I am really sorry about what happened in the tread, but tolerating ignorance just isn't part of me, especially with repeat offenders.

ces wrote:
My Error Zolishoru. You did have something more to say. I don't tolerate fools easily myself. May I ask you, are there any other loud high performance server cpu coolers you would recommend for HTPC builds in general? Oh and how many dbs would you estimate the k199 to generate at your claimed 1500rpm (don't answer, those are trick questions)

Can you point me out, where exactly in that thread(http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=64013), I've recommended to run the K199 fan other then close to the minimum speed?
Regarding that oh-so-offensive correction from 3000 RPM to 1500RPM: since You didn't respected the original fan specs, I've corrected(and marked my correction, without bold, BTW) to point out what RPM range I think would be realistic for this particular application.
And now, the Reality Distortion Machine in full action:
ces wrote:
My Error Zolishoru. You did have something more to say. I don't tolerate fools easily myself. May I ask you, are there any other loud high performance server cpu coolers you would recommend for HTPC builds in general? Oh and how many dbs would you estimate the k199 to generate at your claimed 1500rpm (don't answer, those are trick questions)

Can you point me out the source of the quote in an unedited post?


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 Post subject: Reality Distortion Machine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 6:13 am 
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Zolishoru, all I did was quote you word for word... adding highlighted emphasis to guide the reader's eye to what appear to be your inconsistencies. :oops:
It was cut and paste. Are you correcting any of the statements that I quoted.

Again, are there any other loud high performance server cpu coolers you would recommend for HTPC builds in general? Oh and how many dbs would you estimate the k199 to generate at your claimed 1500rpm?

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 Post subject: Re: Reality Distortion Machine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:09 am 
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ces wrote:
Zolishoru, all I did was quote you word for word :oops:

Yes, especially here:
ces wrote:
...
Yes dear, there are circumstances under which you would use a loud 1000-3000 rpm (1000-5000 rpm actually) high performance server cpu cooler for quiet HTPC builds.
...

And not to speak about the arbitrary order for the other quotes.
And what you has to say about yourself? I'm still awaiting the requested link... Or that's just an imaginary quote, invented at the moment?


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 Post subject: Reality Distortion Machine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:21 am 
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Manufacturer's specs for the 1000-5000 rpm PWM K199 server cpu cooler recommended by Zolishoru: :D
http://www.dynatron-corp.com/en/product ... d=191&in=0

With a fan that is only 15mm thick it has the capability of delivering 14.719 CFM at 36.168 mm-H2O static pressure. At 1000 rpm though it only delivers 5.355 CFM. I wonder how much heat 5.355 cfm is capable of removing without the assistance of much of a fin structure? I guess we will never know. :D

Update:
tramall wrote:
I have got K199 and K2 (wit pushpins ) . Both are loud
I guess we now know... at least that the K199 is loud as expected.

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Last edited by ces on Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Reality Distortion Machine
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:49 pm 
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ces wrote:
Manufacturer's specs for the 1000-5000 rpm PWM K199 server cpu cooler recommended by Zolishoru: :D
http://www.dynatron-corp.com/en/product ... d=191&in=0

With a fan that is only 15mm thick it has the capability of delivering 14.719 CFM at 36.168 mm-H2O static pressure. At 1000 rpm though it only delivers 5.355 CFM. I wonder how much heat 5.355 cfm is capable of removing without the assistance of much of a fin structure? I guess we will never know. :D

Sigh... One last respose here, even if you don't deserve it, considering your total lack of credibility.
1. Why the Dynatron K199? Available space in the given HTPC case situation, HSF position, case airflow and cooling need without case mods; possibility of the quiet run; lack of viable alternatives.
2. One more "conveniently" forgotten detail: static pressure @1000RPM for the K199; is 2.083 mm-H2O according to specs. Should I remind you the importance of the static pressure for the CPU fans? As comparison, the Noctua NF-P12 @1300RPM has 1.68 mm-H2O static pressure, and is regarded as one of the best CPU cooler fans, so IMO the 5.355 cfm can go a long way(for examples look up some northbridge cooling articles; TDP, cfm, and noise are in the same ballpark; static pressure not).
3. Fin structure: here's a close-up of the K199:
Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
~80 fine fins I wouldn't consider lack of structure; as equivalent surface I would put in the same ballpark with the original Intel HSF, but on the higher side. Did I mention that the K199 is made from copper vs the Intel aluminum body?

And stop jumping threads: if you want to discuss the technical merits(or the lack of) the K199 HSF, do it in the original thread; if you want to discuss the lack of your credibility and what you can do about it, do it here - for the sake of the readers. And before you answer, be sure that you completely understood what I've written; if not, any time you can ask for details, I will gladly answer the proper question, but only in the proper thread.


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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:52 pm 
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Reserved.

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:03 pm 
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The Effect of Magnets and Static Electricity on HDDs and Electronics

lhopitalified wrote:
mkk wrote:
Caution is always wise but it would take much stronger magnets to harm the driver from a distance. Touching the drive with one of those magnets would not be a good idea, but otherwise it's safe.

agreed.
http://www.dansdata.com/gz009.htm

The above link is very educational. The one most important thing I learned is that damage from static electricity isn't always obvious... it may merely degrade performance in ways that are not immediately obvious.

See also:
http://www.dansdata.com/amazingmagnets.htm

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 Post subject: How to Ignore Miscreants on SPCR
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:07 am 
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SPCR Ignore Function

xan_user wrote:
Did you know SPCR has an ignore function? I didn't. :mrgreen:
Sooooo much better now. :wink:
I recommend it highly. :D

Many if not most of the posters on SPCR (including myself) will get cranky from time to time... but what they contribute most often outweighs the irritation they may cause at other times. But sometimes two posters may just not get along.

I want to thank xan_user for showing how to shut off the noise of someone you consider to be so obnoxious that he/she/they just spoil the SPCR experience for you.

Here is how you shut them out of your world:
1. Go the the forums and log in.
2. Click on "User Control Panel" on the upper right side of the screen.
3. Go the the left side of the screen and click on "Friends & Foes"
4. Then click on "Manage foes"
5. Then enter the handles of whoever you just don't want to listen to.
"Foes are users which will be ignored by default. Posts by these users will not be fully visible. Personal messages from foes are still permitted. Please note that you cannot ignore moderators or administrators."

So far I have used it on only one poster, but it felt good just pushing the button to do so. Try it, you'll like it. And if I ever become a burden on your pleasure of using the SPCR forums, by all means, block my posts.

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Last edited by ces on Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:14 pm 
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Graphics Processor Hierarchy Chart at Tom's Hardware

Tom's Hardware has a nice chart that gives a rough comparison ranking for various graphics chips and cards. It includes Discrete graphics cards, IGPs and GPUs.

Fire-Flare wrote:
ces wrote:
Does anyone know how the graphics processors compare between these two boards? Or how the NVIDIA GeForce 9300 graphics processor compares with the Sandy Bridge graphics processors, or any other processors?
I need to do some more digging, but as a rough estimate: The latest hierarchy chart at Tom's Hardware says the AMD HD 6310 and 3rd generation Sandy Bridge are about the same as a discrete 9400GT or HD 5470, and the integrated 9300 performs like a discreet 6600 or ATI 2400 Pro.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gam ... 107-7.html

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 Post subject: Ivy Bridge & Haswell Graphics Processors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Ivy Bridge & Haswell Graphics Processors

Apparently not only is the Ivy Bridge graphics about 50% faster than Sandybridge... but Haswell graphics may be triple the performance of Ivy Bridge graphics. Yeah yeah... I know it isn't here today... but it is still intriguing:
http://www.legitreviews.com/news/12656/

This may be enough for some people to skip Ivy Bridge and keep their current computer another 12 to 18 months.

Intel Haswell CPU - a Quantum Jump in CPU Performance?
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=62186&hilit=+haswell

ces wrote:
"Haswell is a Real Graphics Monster"

"Haswell is a real graphics monster. 5x the shader performance is only the beginning of the story, memory bandwidth will likely have a larger impact than the shaders in the real world."

http://semiaccurate.com/2012/04/02/hasw ... ystalwell/


Haswell 2013 chipset has 50 percent lower power consumption
http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/26762 ... onsumption

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Last edited by ces on Thu Apr 12, 2012 9:45 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 7:14 am 
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Configuration Trade offs for Gaming

Mats wrote:
It would make a lot more sense to spend $120 less on the CPU (3570K), and more on the graphics card.
You'd get better gaming performance, no doubt. In general, Hyperthreading doesn't make any sense in gaming anyway:
http://www.overclock.net/t/671977/hyper ... g-in-games

In short:
Quote:
- Hyperthreading neither helps nor hurts when gaming.
- Always choose a higher clockspeed over hyperthreading for gaming.
It makes the CPU run hotter though.

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 Post subject: Fan Noise - Turbulence vs. Bearings & Commutators
PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:22 am 
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Fan Noise - Turbulence vs. Bearings & Commutators

MikeC wrote:
Two points:
1. At very low speed, like the 600rpm spec'd for the low setting, turbulence is usually not the main cause of noise, but bearings and commutator. Hence, the design may not really help lower the noise any further.
2. It is at higher speeds that the new design should/might help, as turbulence noise becomes much more significant in most 120mm fans at ~800rpm & higher.

PWM fans tend to make noise because of small buy abrupt changes in torque generated by the PWM. Noctua has a new line of PWM fans in which those changes in torque are electronically smoothed out. It appears their PWM fans are still louder than than non-PWM fans... but if they are operating most of the time at 300rpm maybe that isn't so in real life.

lodestar wrote:
For example, Noctua claim that their NE-FD1 PWM fan driver IC results in a quieter running fan. The testing by Legitreviews seems to bear this out, "...PWM mode did make this fan sound much better, there was far less bearing noise...". So a fan that is quieter under PWM operation than it is under voltage control is a step forward...

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 Post subject: Are Quiet Cases an Anachronism?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:41 am 
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Quiet Cases - No Longer Needed?

Aleavolar wrote:
If the stock cooler is noisy, even you get the best case won't help a lot. but if you switch to other aftermarket cooler, the noise level would be much lower if you get a random case.
I personally think the concept of a "quiet" case is antiquated. Get a case the meets you needs and don't look to the case to provide you with the quiet you are seeking.

Get a good aftermarket CPU cooler and a good PSU and you will not have any noise that needs to be muffled. That once was not an option, but it is today. See:
SPCR Recommended PSUs
http://www.silentpcreview.com/Recommended_PSUs

SPCR Recommended Heatsinks
http://www.silentpcreview.com/Recommended_Heatsinks

SPCR Recommended Fans for those heatsinks (these are a little out of date but are soon to be updated... the Nexus continues to be a can't lose decision)
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article63-page2.html

If you find your hard drive resonating, Get Noise Magic No Vibes III:
viewtopic.php?p=539359#p539359

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Measuring Heatpipe Efficiency

An interesting article from 2006

"The author's conclusion about keeping the thermal load to 15W per pipe still seems prudent" keep in mind this conclusion is limited to the specific heat pipes and configuration tested. Even there the author observed a capability of carrying 30W per pipe... and these are older heat pipe technology and 6mm heat pipes as opposed to 8mm ones.

http://www.silentpcreview.com/article647-page1.html

Amec Thermasol Flat Cool Pipes

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=63014

Vapor Chamber Cooling

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=64137

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:44 pm 
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SPCR Buying Groups

Blessed by MikeC
viewtopic.php?p=555520#p555520

Amec Thermasol Flat Cool Pipes
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=63014

Can I buy a system "from" SPCR?
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=64140

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 Post subject: Re: What I have Learned about Computer Performance from SPCR
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:15 am 
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HTPC Keyboards

SPCR Discussion
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=64144

So here is what people have found as promising HTPC Keyboards. Does anyone have any other recommendations:

alexh wrote:
My keyboard use tends to be infrequent typing but I need good mouse control... For this reason I'm leaning towards the Peripad.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005O7 ... 151JUUD897
http://www.amazon.com/Logitech-920-0005 ... 910&sr=8-1



Linnaeus Tripe wrote:
I have the Logitech diNova mini and it has been nothing but a hassle... I have found that it loses connection easily and will not re-sync without removing the battery from the base, replugging in the dongle, etc. When it does work the size is fine and the controls are convenient.

I found a MonCaso wireless keyboard/track ball on-line a couple of years ago and it has worked well. I have not seen it on sale anywhere lately, so it may be discontinued. It is much bigger then the Logitech but has proven to be more reliable.


Abula wrote:
If you were to like a keyboard slight bigger, this is what i use for my HTPC, Logitech Wireless Touch Keyboard K400 with Built-In Multi-Touch Touchpad (920-003070) , solid typing, good touch pad, but bigger than the HTPC one hand keyboard...


Cideko AVK-02-915 Black RF Wireless Mini Keyboard

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6823721001

Other Cideko Keyboards

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi ... &x=16&y=22


Jay_S wrote:
I've purchased two Adesso WKB-3000UB keyboards - they came with slightly different key assemblies, as-in layout revisions. They have the best mouse button arrangement, in my opinion. It is the same arrangement that has been copied/used by countless other similar keyboards: trackball and L-click trigger on the right "hand grip", and L/R-click and scroll wheel on the left "grip". When you hold the keyboard, these mouse controls are exactly where you fingers expect them.

The downside to most of these mini keyboards is that the membrane keys are not cleanable or repairable. The reason I have 2 of these is that the 1st one has a whole region of the keyboard that quit working. Everything around the "L" key, including the Enter button is dead. The 2nd keyboard I bought has so far outlast the original 3x.

Sadly, the 3000UB is no longer made. And the replacement model# WKB-3000U is inferior in many ways.

[EDIT]
This SIIG keyboard is similar to my Adesso's:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6823191009


Pulse-Eight Motorola NYXboard Hybrid Remote Review
"There are plenty of universal remotes and HTPC control solutions at various price points. Some come with both IR and RF capabilities. Others are able to control multiple devices. Some have universal remotes integrated in a keyboard. However, the Motorola NYXboard hybrid remote is unique in terms of combining the optimal features necessary in a XBMC HTPC based setup. It is a dual-sided learning remote with both IR and RF capabilities. The RF capabilities enable it to interact with a PC, while the IR support helps it to control other devices in the home theater setup. The keyboard side also has basic mouse functionality"
http://www.anandtech.com/show/5725/puls ... ote-review


andymcca wrote:
ces wrote:
Neat tiny keyboard for HTPC
Cideko AVK-02-915 Black RF Wireless Mini Keyboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6823721001

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6823721001
(link was broken!)

Quiet Keyboards
MikeC wrote:
Obviously, if you haven't, you should take the time to scroll through the massive 439-post, 9-year thread Recommend a Silent Mouse and Keyboard? -- viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2500
For info on quiet Keyboards see
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2500
and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61769&p=536148
and
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=61778&p=536166


ntavlas wrote:
A Logitech with a nice big touchpad and a 3 (!) year warranty:
http://www.logitech.com/en-sg/keyboards/keyboard/devices/wireless-touch-keyboard-k400

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Last edited by ces on Thu Apr 12, 2012 3:20 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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