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 Post subject: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 7:00 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Staten Island, NYC
This is what i curently have (thanks to most of You) for the last 2 years:

Case: Antec Nine Hundred Black Steel ATX Mid Tower,
CPU: Intel Core i7-860 Lynnfield 2.8GHz,
MoBo: ASUS P7P55D-E LX LGA 1156 Intel P55 SATA 6Gb/s USB 3.0,
GFX: ASUS ENGT240 Silent/DI/1GD3 GeForce GT 240 1GB DDR3,
RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws 4GB DDR3 DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800),
CPU HS: Noctua NH-U12P SE2 120mm SSO CPU Cooler,
PSU: SeaSonic M12II 620 Bronze 620W ATX12V V2.3
Data-HDD: WD Caviar Black 1TB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5",
OS-HDD: WD Caviar Blue 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5"
ODD: Sony Optiarc CD/DVD Burner AD-7261S-0B LightScribe,
OS: Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64-bit.


Its time to upgrade, i need a new system.
I am a musician, a lot of Sound engineering and Sound programming tasks. Some of you might be familiar with
softwares like Cubase, Kontakt, Reaktor, Wavelab and else...i also do quiet a few things with Photoshop or with
Video editing softwares. And once in a while i like to sit and Play COD, BF and few similar games, nothing extreme.

What can i use from my existing rig if i decide to dissasemble it instead of selling it, as i experienced i dont
really like the Antec case, too messed up for cables. Budget 1500$, i already have Monitor and Operating System.
If i sell it i will make a few hundred bucks if not it still dont matter, budget stays the same.

The question is what is it worth to upgrade to where i can actually see improved performance.
This time silence is not as important as it was when i was building my first Rig, not that it will change location,
it will be on the same spot again but i experienced with these components that is not as bad as i thought it was
and of course i do not want a tractor trailer in my studio but i wont be as picky as i was.
I am between:
Intel® Core™ i7-3820 Processor
(10M Cache, up to 3.80 GHz)
Intel® Core™ i7-2700K Processor
(8M Cache, up to 3.90 GHz)
Is it worth going on Bridge-E or staying at 26-2700?
X58 or X79?

I dont know, lets start with some ideas please?

Thank You All!

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:25 pm 
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I can't tell. Are you looking for a smaller case/MOBO or a different different case?

How about the 3770S on a smaller mother board in a smaller case?

viewtopic.php?p=557056#p557056

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:31 pm 
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BasariStudios wrote:
The question is what is it worth to upgrade to where i can actually see improved performance.
It just seems like you aren't going to get that big of an improvement in performance no matter what you do.... other than perhaps buying an SSD.

There just doesn't seem like there is that much for you to do get much of a performance payback from spending the money.

It doesn't seem like you are looking for a faster video card, is that correct?

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Last edited by ces on Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:35 pm 
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If you don't need SNB-E, it will blow a hole straight through your budget and not actually perform much better in many cases. Wait a month and run IVB on X78.

You should be able to reuse the PSU, RAM, and all drives, so just case, motherboard, and CPU. Graphics card can be kept or upgraded - depends on what level of gaming you want to do. But if you assume a $300 IVB CPU, $200 (and that's high) Z78 motherboard, and $200 (again, high...) case, you can fit a GTX 680 into your budget with room to spare. In all honestly, you could probably go with a $200 3570K CPU, $100-150 motherboard, and $100 case, get whatever graphics card you want, upgrade the OS drive to an SSD, and come in under budget and MUCH faster than now.

How's that sound?


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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:50 pm 
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Keep the computer. Get an SSD then spend the remaining money on a new tablet.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:36 am 
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You could also buy two additional sticks of RAM. Those are very cheap these days and your applications seem very demanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 6:30 am 
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Welcome back. There's been a few DAW builds in the last 6 months. If you have the time, do a search for them. You don't mention what your audio hardware is or how many tracks you use, etc.., so here's some generic advice.

Steinberg recommended hardware link.
Another DAW build on SPCR
Gearslutz DAW forum

-Are you doing a new build just because you want to or because there's some specific part(s) that aren't working out?
- Depending on the number of tracks you work with and the number of VSTs, 4GB isn't enough RAM. 8GB will do.
- Move to SSD for OS/Apps. If you have the $, move the sample library to an SSD.
- Sandybridge and PCI: It doesn't have a native PCI controller. Instead, it utilizes a PCI-e to PCI bridge that apparently wrecked havoc amongst DAWs with PCI cards (poor latency). There's been firmware updates to mostly fix it. Here's a thread from RME users forum on it.
- SNB or SNB-E: There just aren't a lot of DAW benchmarks out there...and again, I don't know how complex your recording needs are. Chances are, you could overclock an I7-2600K and it'll meet your needs.
- Ivy Bridge: Due out in end of April. But, every new launch has it's own bug set. I'd let others be the beta sites and do an Ivy Bridge build 3 months after launch.
- video card: gaming depends on monitor resolution. CuBase 5.5 and Nuendo 5 can use GPU acceleration for video scaling - just need an OpenGL 2.0 or better video card.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:06 am 
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Thanks Steve,
i am on Cubase 6.5, i am using TC Electronic Impakt Twin with an SIIG TI IEE1394 Controller.
I use Kontakt, Omnisphere and few others who heavilly rely on RAM.
How many tracks i use well it deppends, 10-20-30. What if i actually get 4 of these? 4x4:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... =u00000687
Then add an SSD...which GPU should i get, i can afford all of this...after that i will probably overclock.
Right now i am using the AI Tuner and the i7 860 runs at around 3.4GHZ, the automated one, i dont know manual.

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:07 am 
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Why do you need a new one? Is it getting too slow? If so when? There's just not enough information.
I would do a two step process to improve speed:
kuzzia wrote:
You could also buy two additional sticks of RAM. Those are very cheap these days and your applications seem very demanding.

ces wrote:
Keep the computer. Get an SSD then spend the remaining money on a new tablet.

Get 16GB of RAM (it's cheap at the moment), 1600 speed is good enough, and a large enough SSD, Intel 520 or Samsung 830 series. (Ignore the tablet comment, it's beside the point)
I guess the programs eat up ram and will benefit from more. Program startup is much faster from an SSD.
You can install these parts and see if it's fast enough. If you have or want to move to step two you can reuse these parts, no money wasted. Also this step is safe to do as it won't interfere with your current, running system in a major way.

Second step would be a mainboard and CPU upgrade (+ a mounting kit for the cooler. Email Noctua, maybe they'll send you a Socket 2011 mounting kit for free).
The maximum frequency for a new CPU from Intel is ~3500Mhz +-100MHz. That's just over 20% more compared to your old CPU. Usually an upgrade is felt when the CPU speed is increased 50%. With a Six core CPU raw performance will go up about 50%, but not many programs can use six cores (Photoshop does, the audio programs I don't know). The frequencies you listed are turbo frequencies, when NOT all cores are in use the remaining ones can speed up.
Intel i7-38XX series are the fastest and by far the most expensive CPUs. They need a mainboard based on the X79 chipset (also expensive). Some of these board have eight DIMM (ram) slots, so you can get up to 64GB of RAM. The X79/i7-38XX combination makes sense only for two scenarios: You need 64GB of RAM, because there's no other (easy) way to get it, or you need a six core CPU, the i7-3830 is the cheapest one. This mainboard and CPU will cost you 800$. I don't know about the particulars of the PCIe to PCI bridge issue, so I'm not listing it here. Feel free to do your own research.
The i7-3820 you mentioned has four cores and is barely faster than i5 CPUs for half the price.
The Intel i7-2XXX series and i5-2XXX series will be replaced within six weeks. If you don't need 64GB RAM or a six core CPU, you should wait.
The i5-3570K is what you want if you wait, 3.4GHz quad core with low power consumption. It goes into a mainboard with the Z77 chipset (or Z75 or H77). This CPU mainboard combo will be between 400-500$. The Asus P8Z77V is pretty much the successor to your current board.

The Fractal Design Define R3 and Antec P183 are nice, quiet cases from the recommended list with good cable management.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:11 am 
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Then...what would be a step up from this Graphics Card that i have now?

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:16 am 
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BasariStudios wrote:
Then...what would be a step up from this Graphics Card that i have now?
There is a brand new generation of nvidia cards. You can buy the new high end ones.... or wait a few months and get a midrange version of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:16 am 
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boost wrote:
(Ignore the tablet comment, it's beside the point)
I thought it was a good idea :)

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:57 am 
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BasariStudios wrote:
Thanks Steve,
i am on Cubase 6.5, i am using TC Electronic Impakt Twin with an SIIG TI IEE1394 Controller.
I use Kontakt, Omnisphere and few others who heavilly rely on RAM.
How many tracks i use well it deppends, 10-20-30. What if i actually get 4 of these? 4x4:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... =u00000687
Then add an SSD...which GPU should i get, i can afford all of this...after that i will probably overclock.
Right now i am using the AI Tuner and the i7 860 runs at around 3.4GHZ, the automated one, i dont know manual.

Thanks


I'd upgrade in steps. Start with the weakest links in the chain and move up. Start with RAM. Don't know if you need 16GB, but what you listed is cheap.

One thought, load task manager and then run a typical job before and after you get the RAM. See how much RAM is actually being used and look at your CPU loading. If (after you've loaded the new RAM) the CPU isn't getting near 90-100% load, then it's not the weak link in the system.

Graphics card: Still need to know your monitor resolution and whether you want to play games with all the bells and whistles on as well as whether you do video editing with your DAW s/w.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:20 am 
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Thanks Steve,
in DAWs i dont do video editing. I use PS and PowerDirector a lot but not extreme.
As far as Games go i am not extreme Gamer but it would be nice to have some
decent card, if this what i have is not. I curently have an Acer P236H Monitor
running at 1920-1080 and will most likely get one more. From all my researches
it makes me think that the weakest link is the RAM folowing HDD and GPU.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:27 am 
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BasariStudios wrote:
I dont know, lets start with some ideas please?


I agree with many here. You already have a fast computer and no need to upgrade it. Except on thing: get SSDs! That is the one single thing you should do and it WILL give you a big performance boost. A new CPU/Mobo won't.

Get a Samsung or Intel SSD or two and put the OS and programs there. And possibly some data aswell if you can afford enough GBs. 4GB more RAM could also benefit you. But no need to buy other components IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:55 am 
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BasariStudios wrote:
I curently have an Acer P236H Monitor
running at 1920-1080 and will most likely get one more. From all my researches
it makes me think that the weakest link is the RAM folowing HDD and GPU.


I agree. Photoshop will use the GPU to accelerate display functions (zoom, pan, rotate) and it just takes any modern gpu. PowerDirector uses GPGPU for acceleration...but in a quick search I haven't come across benchmarks to see how much horsepower it can use. For games, Battlefield 3 is a GPU hog. You'd have to get something in the HD7850/ GTX 560ti class - possible more for maxing out quality levels at 1080p. Here's a couple BF3 benchmarks:
pcper
anandtech
bit-tech
Tom's hardware

Note - if you add a second monitor, there is a power penalty. In order to keep the video memory happy, AMD never idles the memory clock...NVidia doesn't idle the gpu clock, either. HT4U does a good job showing the impact.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 12:06 pm 
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Should i start with purchasing the folowing 2 components then go onto SSDs and Overclocking?:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814121623

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6820226191

Then i can afford one of these:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductLi ... ndSearch=1
that should be enough for now and then i should go onto overclocking the whole machine.
Now, can i partition an SSD? I would need it to split it in half, for 2 different OSs, one strictly
for Studio one just Misc, thats how i have it now. Some people mentioned that i should upgrade my PSU too, from 620 somewhere up.

For the price of aroun d 900$, would this be good enough of upgrade?:

Image



Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:27 pm 
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PSU: Your S12 will do the job. No reason to spend the money on a new PSU. If, for some reason you really want new PSU...take a look at the Kingwin LZP-550 for $120.Cost less than the Seasonic, higher efficiency, and you don't need 650W.

SSD: You can partition if you want to. No real reason to unless you have a preferred backup routine that you like. Or, you could buy two 128GB 830's for less than the single 256GB @ newegg.

GPU: Haven't seen a review of the Asus version of the 7850 on a respected site, yet. So, don't know how it tracks for noise. I've been compiling 7850 reviews...here's what I have so far. I'd expect the prices to drop a bit in the next month or so as Nvidia releases their midrange cards.

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Last edited by CA_Steve on Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:35 pm 
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You can partition a SSD same as a HDD.
The Intel 520 sells for the same as the Samsung 830, at the same price I would prefer Intel.
Why do you want to buy a new PSU? The one you have is just fine, read the article on power. Your system will be very similar to the LGA 1155 test system, which draws an absolute peak of 271W.
Get the Intel SSD and keep your current PSU.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 3:59 pm 
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boost wrote:
Get the Intel SSD
I agree. See the SSD Reliability data:
viewtopic.php?p=555937#p555937

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 4:08 pm 
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BasariStudios wrote:
can i partition an SSD? I would need it to split it in half, for 2 different OSs, one strictly
for Studio one just Misc,
You can... but I would be somewhat wary of what might happen if you try booting off of each of them. It should work like an HDD... but SSDs can be quirky.

I would just get two Intel SSDs. And hook them up with a Mitron Hard Drive Boot selector.
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/ ... s_id=25675
This is much cleaner and more elegant. And if one of your hard drives crashes... you still have the other one to boot from.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Thanks guys, building a PC is off the table, i will just upgrade and then OC.

PSU-few people mention that my current GPU or if i get another i would need over 620...
i dont know why and i dont know what to do.

GPU-I chosed ASUS based on the one i already have which i never had a problem with
but its not a final decision, any Card in the 150$ range that would justify against mine?

SSD-I need at least 100GBs of space for each System...i have the Antec900, so getting
2x128 would be good enough i think, i still have one more Bay for my 1TB HDD which will
hold all of my file and Sample Libraries.

RAM-Would it matter if i buy only 2x4GB now and keep my 2x2GB that they are not matched/
paired 2x2 but 2 different and 2 different? Any recomendation on RAM?

???
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a ... 6814130625

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:29 am 
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PSU - there is a lot of misinformation out there regarding how much power you need. Your system, as is, probably draws 220W AC under 100% load of CPU and GPU. Changing out HDD for 2x SSD, adding RAM and switching to a (say $150 HD6850), kicks this up to ~300W AC. At your PSU's efficiency, this means ~ 250W DC. Let's say you go crazy and decide to OC and it adds 50W DC, or 300W DC total. It's still less than 50% load on the PSU and the fan will still be on the quiet side. (fyi, the link shows Corsair's rebranded Seasonic M12).

GPU: HD6850 is about $150 these days. You'd have to dial back BF3 quality levels and maybe game at 16x12. I like the MSI R6850 Cyclone - another spcr member has had poor experience with it. Powercolor sells a passive version that you'd probably want to strap a low rpm fan onto.

RAM: Yeah, you can keep your current 2x2GB in one paired sset and add the 4x4GB in the other. A caveat...the weakest link in OC'ing tends to be memory and memory timings...can be a pita.

SSD: Intel, Samsung, and Crucial all have decent reliability.

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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Location: Staten Island, NYC
Steve, i was thinking the same as you...on the other hand the person advised me to get a 650W PSU.
How much difference would 30W make? If he said 750 of course it would make sense but 650?

GPU, isn't mine already an 6850 Card? Would it make that much of a difference to get an HD?
Do you know of any reliable and tested brand/model?

SSDs i gotta think...i might just update the ones i got and get HDDs at 64MB Cache,
SSD is still not justifiable to me for the price, i need over 1.5 GB for Libraries.

Thanks

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Nedim
Reality is a Condition due to lack of Weed!


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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 7:12 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:36 am
Posts: 4729
Location: Monterey Bay, CA
I think your post would have made more sense at 4:20p and not 4:05p.... :D

You have a ASUS ENGT240 aka an Nvidia GT 240 which was a low end gaming card in it's day. I'm talking about an AMD HD 6850 - they are going for ~$150 now. I like the MSI R6850 Cyclone for it's low noise.

PSU - keep what you have. It won't be stressed by your new build.

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1080p Gaming build: i5-4670K, Mugen 4, MSI Z87-G45, MSI GTX 760 2GB Gaming, 8GB 1866 RAM, Samsung Evo 250GB, Crucial MX100 256GB, WD Red 2TB, Samsung DVD burner, Fractal Define R4, Antec True Quiet 140 (2 front + rear) case fans, Seasonic X-560. 35-40W idle, 45-55W video streaming, 170-200W WoW, 200-230W Rift, 318W stress test (Prime95 + Furmark)


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 Post subject: Re: Time to build a new PC
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:16 am 
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Joined: Wed May 04, 2005 1:24 am
Posts: 198
Location: Finland
SSD: Samsung's 830 SSDs are very reliable and faster than Intel 520 with incompressible data (like audio/video). I'd take the cheaper of the two. I think Samsung might have more uniform performance with different kinds of data. But both are good.

GPU: Your old GPU (GeForce 240) is very slow. A new AMD 7770 might be a good buy as it is not that expensive and it can be made passive if you want silence.

PSU. Forget what your friend said: he knows nothing about the power consumption of your system. Even a good quality 400W PSU would be enough for your new setup! A 620W has unneeded power surplus.

RAM: Buy the cheapest with the needed speed you are using. Overclocking memory gives practically no extra speed so don't buy "overclockers" memory modules with fancy heatsinks.


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